So twinned Eldritch blast without dipping in Sorcerer is a thing now. Cool.
No, it’s not. In fact, it isn’t even a thing if you do dip into Sorcerer. Eldritch Blast is capable of targeting multiple creatures. Any spell capable of that can not be twinned. Spells capable of targeting objects can also not be twinned.
So twinned Eldritch blast without dipping in Sorcerer is a thing now. Cool.
No, it’s not. In fact, it isn’t even a thing if you do dip into Sorcerer. Eldritch Blast is capable of targeting multiple creatures. Any spell capable of that can not be twinned. Spells capable of targeting objects can also not be twinned.
My aplogies you're right. I need to go to bed now that I still have a foot left.
Lol, no worries. Everybody gets some stuff mixed up sometimes. You wanna talk about sticking your foot in your mouth? One time I got the rules for Great Weapon Fighting Style mixed up with the rules for Critical hits. Talk about embarrassing....
With all due respect, Metamagic and Invocations both step largely on the sorcerer's and warlock's identity. If you want to argue that something is too powerful, sure. I can see that. Argue that the feats should be viable for the class it "dips" to take? Sure, down with that. But the entire idea of "stepping on the class toes" is kind of the whole point of these "dip feats." They're a kind of trade off - taking a feat instead of a level dip. The whole point is to take some low level features from another class.
The thing is there is no standard invocation or metamagic, they are choices and its very common for two characters of the same class to not have the same options. Rage and wildshape are opposite. Giving those things as a feat would be exactly the same as being apart of that class, with no added benefits of playing that class and taking its feat
For rogue, you could do some sort of cunning action. Bonus action to do some stuff, not sure what. It could be like normal cunning action, or have some other actions.
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Things that specialize action economy like that feel like it steps on the rogues' toes. The "skilled" feat already allows other classes match them in proficiencies. If their cunning action can be copied, then their only core class trait is sneak attack. It would need to be something that spreads out the actions, like poisoner. Or have limited uses, like Martial adept.
Even with things like Eldritch adept, an actual Warlock still has a better version of the abilities.
This is 100% just my personal opinion, but "stepping on another class" is not a great reason to avoid doing something. If there is a good reason TO do someting, then not stepping on another class is a good warning to really do a creative and balanced job of doing the thing.
There is a difference between gently sharing and stealing lol. Giving a whole full version of the class feature as a Feat is not only stepping on another classes toes, but is also almost too powerful
For rogue, you could do some sort of cunning action. Bonus action to do some stuff, not sure what. It could be like normal cunning action, or have some other actions.
I think that would be a bit too powerful.
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This is 100% just my personal opinion, but "stepping on another class" is not a great reason to avoid doing something. If there is a good reason TO do someting, then not stepping on another class is a good warning to really do a creative and balanced job of doing the thing.
Okay, these Metamagic, Invocation, and Superiority Dice feats step on other class's toes, but a Rage feat, or a Wild Shape would do more than that. They would stomp on their foot, breaking most of the bones inside of those class's foundations. I agree, in most of the cases where people claim a subclass "steps on another class's toes" it's normally not such a big deal to me (example: Fey-Wanderer Rangers and Horizon Walker Rangers, or Divine Soul Sorcerers and Clerics).
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I just wonder how many warlocks would take quicken spell just to double up on Eldritch Blast as basically a version of action surge, which be nasty if they dipped fighter for 2 levels giving them the bonus action casting, then the casting and then the action surge casting which could mean 12 attack rolls with a potential of +5 damage for each hit at level 17+
I just wonder how many warlocks would take quicken spell just to double up on Eldritch Blast as basically a version of action surge, which be nasty if they dipped fighter for 2 levels giving them the bonus action casting, then the casting and then the action surge casting which could mean 12 attack rolls with a potential of +5 damage for each hit at level 17+
Is at lvl 17+ game balance not more of an illusion than a thing? Or an agreement between players and DM.
I just wonder how many warlocks would take quicken spell just to double up on Eldritch Blast as basically a version of action surge, which be nasty if they dipped fighter for 2 levels giving them the bonus action casting, then the casting and then the action surge casting which could mean 12 attack rolls with a potential of +5 damage for each hit at level 17+
Probably not a lot. That's one ASI/feat to double cast E.B. as a bonus action once per day. A pretty hefty price tag, especially when its just as likely we have Hex shinanigans going on for our bonus action, not counting the other bonus-actions the warlock can get. Most games end at around level 10 or 11, and taper off the higher the level. Even if we do get to level 18 warlock, that's only four ASI/feats. Two for +CHA, with two "open" slots for feats, with several big feats competing for attention, including Resilient (Con), Lucky, Crossbow Expert, War Caster, Spell Sniper, some of the better racial feats, Moderately Armored, Shield Master and Eldritch Adapt.
I personally would snag Eldritch Adapt before Metamagic Adapt.
The issue is that getting one Invocation, or getting one or two Metamagic options and two sorcery points, are by their nature 'lesser' versions of the class features they're aping.
Yeah, I conceded that when I said that I understood arguments that they were too strong. I just refuse to take "steps on someone's toes" as a valid argument. That very clearly has been tossed out the window. Something is reserved, until something official makes it not.
The problem with Barbarian and Druid is that Wildshape and Rage are so central to the class identity that any "apprentice" feat needs to touch on those, or its not really an apprentice feat at all. The Ranger-dip Tracker feat is a good example - it provides bonuses to tracking and hunting, and hunting is the core identity of the Ranger. So, a Barbarian dip feat should relate to Rages in some way. Maybe not provide another Rage use, but something that can be used to simulate the feeling of Rage.
I just wonder how many warlocks would take quicken spell just to double up on Eldritch Blast as basically a version of action surge, which be nasty if they dipped fighter for 2 levels giving them the bonus action casting, then the casting and then the action surge casting which could mean 12 attack rolls with a potential of +5 damage for each hit at level 17+
Probably not a lot. That's one ASI/feat to double cast E.B. as a bonus action once per day. A pretty hefty price tag, especially when its just as likely we have Hex shinanigans going on for our bonus action, not counting the other bonus-actions the warlock can get. Most games end at around level 10 or 11, and taper off the higher the level. Even if we do get to level 18 warlock, that's only four ASI/feats. Two for +CHA, with two "open" slots for feats, with several big feats competing for attention, including Resilient (Con), Lucky, Crossbow Expert, War Caster, Spell Sniper, some of the better racial feats, Moderately Armored, Shield Master and Eldritch Adapt.
I personally would snag Eldritch Adapt before Metamagic Adapt.
I'm leaning the same way, if you could get your MM points back I would consider it, but now an extra high level invocation sounds better to be honest for a Warlock. It would give some more options in your building path.
You want the full package, take the class. You want a partial package, dip the class. You want a taste, take the feat. At every level, there is a cost involved in exchange for degrees of access to something that is desirable to the player at the table. In my opinion, a well-designed feat should respect this scale.
I don't think any of these are getting out of UA without major revision, if at all. I have mixed feelings about all of them, both good and bad, but the one that jumps out to me as just weird is Eldritch Adept. The only valid* options for (non-warlocks) to take are:
Armor of Shadows
Beast Speech
Beguiling Influence
Devil's Sight
Eyes of the Runekeeper
Fiendish Vigor
Gaze of Two Minds
Mask of Many Faces
Misty Visions
Thief of Five Fates.
Out of those 10, only 4 aren't just one spell... it's just really awkward, particularly if you're looking at it without realizing how narrow it actually is.
If they wanted to make a feat for Warlocks to get an extra Invocation, then just do that--Prerequisite: Pact Magic feature, choose one Eldritch Invocation you're eligible for.
If they wanted to make a feat for non-Warlocks to get a Warlock feature, then just do that--Prerequisite: Spellcasting feature, choose one Eldritch Invocation from this list*.
There's no reason to shoehorn all that into one feat... just make two feats that are clear in what they actually do.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
I don't know. I really like the fact that these Feats are beneficial to pretty much anyone, including the the parent class the Feat is derived from. I agree that the language should be as clear as possible though to avoid confusion.
I don't think any of these are getting out of UA without major revision, if at all. I have mixed feelings about all of them, both good and bad, but the one that jumps out to me as just weird is Eldritch Adept. The only valid* options for (non-warlocks) to take are:
Armor of Shadows
Beast Speech
Beguiling Influence
Devil's Sight
Eyes of the Runekeeper
Fiendish Vigor
Gaze of Two Minds
Mask of Many Faces
Misty Visions
Thief of Five Fates.
Out of those 10, only 4 aren't just one spell... it's just really awkward, particularly if you're looking at it without realizing how narrow it actually is.
If they wanted to make a feat for Warlocks to get an extra Invocation, then just do that--Prerequisite: Pact Magic feature, choose one Eldritch Invocation you're eligible for.
If they wanted to make a feat for non-Warlocks to get a Warlock feature, then just do that--Prerequisite: Spellcasting feature, choose one Eldritch Invocation from this list*.
There's no reason to shoehorn all that into one feat... just make two feats that are clear in what they actually do.
Hold on, I just noticed something weird in the wording of the Thief of Five Fates Invocation:
Thief of Five Fates
You can cast bane once using a warlock spell slot. You can’t do so again until you finish a long rest.
So, you could take Eldritch Adept and choose this Invocation, but unless you have at least 1 level in Warlock, it's not going to do anything for you. This is the only Invocation on Sigred's list that shares this wording (other invocations that use this template have a level prerequisite) but it still seems... weird.
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So twinned Eldritch blast without dipping in Sorcerer is a thing now. Cool.
No, it’s not. In fact, it isn’t even a thing if you do dip into Sorcerer. Eldritch Blast is capable of targeting multiple creatures. Any spell capable of that can not be twinned. Spells capable of targeting objects can also not be twinned.
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My aplogies you're right. I need to go to bed now that I still have a foot left.
Lol, no worries. Everybody gets some stuff mixed up sometimes. You wanna talk about sticking your foot in your mouth? One time I got the rules for Great Weapon Fighting Style mixed up with the rules for Critical hits. Talk about embarrassing....
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
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The thing is there is no standard invocation or metamagic, they are choices and its very common for two characters of the same class to not have the same options. Rage and wildshape are opposite. Giving those things as a feat would be exactly the same as being apart of that class, with no added benefits of playing that class and taking its feat
For rogue, you could do some sort of cunning action. Bonus action to do some stuff, not sure what. It could be like normal cunning action, or have some other actions.
Please check out my homebrew and give me feedback!
Subclasses | Races | Spells | Magic Items | Monsters | Feats | Backgrounds
Things that specialize action economy like that feel like it steps on the rogues' toes. The "skilled" feat already allows other classes match them in proficiencies. If their cunning action can be copied, then their only core class trait is sneak attack. It would need to be something that spreads out the actions, like poisoner. Or have limited uses, like Martial adept.
Even with things like Eldritch adept, an actual Warlock still has a better version of the abilities.
This is 100% just my personal opinion, but "stepping on another class" is not a great reason to avoid doing something. If there is a good reason TO do someting, then not stepping on another class is a good warning to really do a creative and balanced job of doing the thing.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
There is a difference between gently sharing and stealing lol. Giving a whole full version of the class feature as a Feat is not only stepping on another classes toes, but is also almost too powerful
I think that would be a bit too powerful.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
Okay, these Metamagic, Invocation, and Superiority Dice feats step on other class's toes, but a Rage feat, or a Wild Shape would do more than that. They would stomp on their foot, breaking most of the bones inside of those class's foundations. I agree, in most of the cases where people claim a subclass "steps on another class's toes" it's normally not such a big deal to me (example: Fey-Wanderer Rangers and Horizon Walker Rangers, or Divine Soul Sorcerers and Clerics).
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
I just wonder how many warlocks would take quicken spell just to double up on Eldritch Blast as basically a version of action surge, which be nasty if they dipped fighter for 2 levels giving them the bonus action casting, then the casting and then the action surge casting which could mean 12 attack rolls with a potential of +5 damage for each hit at level 17+
Is at lvl 17+ game balance not more of an illusion than a thing? Or an agreement between players and DM.
Probably not a lot. That's one ASI/feat to double cast E.B. as a bonus action once per day. A pretty hefty price tag, especially when its just as likely we have Hex shinanigans going on for our bonus action, not counting the other bonus-actions the warlock can get. Most games end at around level 10 or 11, and taper off the higher the level. Even if we do get to level 18 warlock, that's only four ASI/feats. Two for +CHA, with two "open" slots for feats, with several big feats competing for attention, including Resilient (Con), Lucky, Crossbow Expert, War Caster, Spell Sniper, some of the better racial feats, Moderately Armored, Shield Master and Eldritch Adapt.
I personally would snag Eldritch Adapt before Metamagic Adapt.
Yeah, I conceded that when I said that I understood arguments that they were too strong. I just refuse to take "steps on someone's toes" as a valid argument. That very clearly has been tossed out the window. Something is reserved, until something official makes it not.
The problem with Barbarian and Druid is that Wildshape and Rage are so central to the class identity that any "apprentice" feat needs to touch on those, or its not really an apprentice feat at all. The Ranger-dip Tracker feat is a good example - it provides bonuses to tracking and hunting, and hunting is the core identity of the Ranger. So, a Barbarian dip feat should relate to Rages in some way. Maybe not provide another Rage use, but something that can be used to simulate the feeling of Rage.
I'm leaning the same way, if you could get your MM points back I would consider it, but now an extra high level invocation sounds better to be honest for a Warlock. It would give some more options in your building path.
You want the full package, take the class. You want a partial package, dip the class. You want a taste, take the feat. At every level, there is a cost involved in exchange for degrees of access to something that is desirable to the player at the table. In my opinion, a well-designed feat should respect this scale.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
I don't think any of these are getting out of UA without major revision, if at all. I have mixed feelings about all of them, both good and bad, but the one that jumps out to me as just weird is Eldritch Adept. The only valid* options for (non-warlocks) to take are:
Out of those 10, only 4 aren't just one spell... it's just really awkward, particularly if you're looking at it without realizing how narrow it actually is.
If they wanted to make a feat for Warlocks to get an extra Invocation, then just do that--Prerequisite: Pact Magic feature, choose one Eldritch Invocation you're eligible for.
If they wanted to make a feat for non-Warlocks to get a Warlock feature, then just do that--Prerequisite: Spellcasting feature, choose one Eldritch Invocation from this list*.
There's no reason to shoehorn all that into one feat... just make two feats that are clear in what they actually do.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
I don't know. I really like the fact that these Feats are beneficial to pretty much anyone, including the the parent class the Feat is derived from. I agree that the language should be as clear as possible though to avoid confusion.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
Hold on, I just noticed something weird in the wording of the Thief of Five Fates Invocation:
Thief of Five Fates
You can cast bane once using a warlock spell slot. You can’t do so again until you finish a long rest.
So, you could take Eldritch Adept and choose this Invocation, but unless you have at least 1 level in Warlock, it's not going to do anything for you. This is the only Invocation on Sigred's list that shares this wording (other invocations that use this template have a level prerequisite) but it still seems... weird.
Partway through the quest for absolute truth.