This is 100% just my personal opinion, but "stepping on another class" is not a great reason to avoid doing something. If there is a good reason TO do someting, then not stepping on another class is a good warning to really do a creative and balanced job of doing the thing.
There is a difference between gently sharing and stealing lol. Giving a whole full version of the class feature as a Feat is not only stepping on another classes toes, but is also almost too powerful
For rogue, you could do some sort of cunning action. Bonus action to do some stuff, not sure what. It could be like normal cunning action, or have some other actions.
I think that would be a bit too powerful.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
This is 100% just my personal opinion, but "stepping on another class" is not a great reason to avoid doing something. If there is a good reason TO do someting, then not stepping on another class is a good warning to really do a creative and balanced job of doing the thing.
Okay, these Metamagic, Invocation, and Superiority Dice feats step on other class's toes, but a Rage feat, or a Wild Shape would do more than that. They would stomp on their foot, breaking most of the bones inside of those class's foundations. I agree, in most of the cases where people claim a subclass "steps on another class's toes" it's normally not such a big deal to me (example: Fey-Wanderer Rangers and Horizon Walker Rangers, or Divine Soul Sorcerers and Clerics).
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
I just wonder how many warlocks would take quicken spell just to double up on Eldritch Blast as basically a version of action surge, which be nasty if they dipped fighter for 2 levels giving them the bonus action casting, then the casting and then the action surge casting which could mean 12 attack rolls with a potential of +5 damage for each hit at level 17+
I just wonder how many warlocks would take quicken spell just to double up on Eldritch Blast as basically a version of action surge, which be nasty if they dipped fighter for 2 levels giving them the bonus action casting, then the casting and then the action surge casting which could mean 12 attack rolls with a potential of +5 damage for each hit at level 17+
Is at lvl 17+ game balance not more of an illusion than a thing? Or an agreement between players and DM.
I just wonder how many warlocks would take quicken spell just to double up on Eldritch Blast as basically a version of action surge, which be nasty if they dipped fighter for 2 levels giving them the bonus action casting, then the casting and then the action surge casting which could mean 12 attack rolls with a potential of +5 damage for each hit at level 17+
Probably not a lot. That's one ASI/feat to double cast E.B. as a bonus action once per day. A pretty hefty price tag, especially when its just as likely we have Hex shinanigans going on for our bonus action, not counting the other bonus-actions the warlock can get. Most games end at around level 10 or 11, and taper off the higher the level. Even if we do get to level 18 warlock, that's only four ASI/feats. Two for +CHA, with two "open" slots for feats, with several big feats competing for attention, including Resilient (Con), Lucky, Crossbow Expert, War Caster, Spell Sniper, some of the better racial feats, Moderately Armored, Shield Master and Eldritch Adapt.
I personally would snag Eldritch Adapt before Metamagic Adapt.
The issue is that getting one Invocation, or getting one or two Metamagic options and two sorcery points, are by their nature 'lesser' versions of the class features they're aping.
Yeah, I conceded that when I said that I understood arguments that they were too strong. I just refuse to take "steps on someone's toes" as a valid argument. That very clearly has been tossed out the window. Something is reserved, until something official makes it not.
The problem with Barbarian and Druid is that Wildshape and Rage are so central to the class identity that any "apprentice" feat needs to touch on those, or its not really an apprentice feat at all. The Ranger-dip Tracker feat is a good example - it provides bonuses to tracking and hunting, and hunting is the core identity of the Ranger. So, a Barbarian dip feat should relate to Rages in some way. Maybe not provide another Rage use, but something that can be used to simulate the feeling of Rage.
I just wonder how many warlocks would take quicken spell just to double up on Eldritch Blast as basically a version of action surge, which be nasty if they dipped fighter for 2 levels giving them the bonus action casting, then the casting and then the action surge casting which could mean 12 attack rolls with a potential of +5 damage for each hit at level 17+
Probably not a lot. That's one ASI/feat to double cast E.B. as a bonus action once per day. A pretty hefty price tag, especially when its just as likely we have Hex shinanigans going on for our bonus action, not counting the other bonus-actions the warlock can get. Most games end at around level 10 or 11, and taper off the higher the level. Even if we do get to level 18 warlock, that's only four ASI/feats. Two for +CHA, with two "open" slots for feats, with several big feats competing for attention, including Resilient (Con), Lucky, Crossbow Expert, War Caster, Spell Sniper, some of the better racial feats, Moderately Armored, Shield Master and Eldritch Adapt.
I personally would snag Eldritch Adapt before Metamagic Adapt.
I'm leaning the same way, if you could get your MM points back I would consider it, but now an extra high level invocation sounds better to be honest for a Warlock. It would give some more options in your building path.
You want the full package, take the class. You want a partial package, dip the class. You want a taste, take the feat. At every level, there is a cost involved in exchange for degrees of access to something that is desirable to the player at the table. In my opinion, a well-designed feat should respect this scale.
I don't think any of these are getting out of UA without major revision, if at all. I have mixed feelings about all of them, both good and bad, but the one that jumps out to me as just weird is Eldritch Adept. The only valid* options for (non-warlocks) to take are:
Armor of Shadows
Beast Speech
Beguiling Influence
Devil's Sight
Eyes of the Runekeeper
Fiendish Vigor
Gaze of Two Minds
Mask of Many Faces
Misty Visions
Thief of Five Fates.
Out of those 10, only 4 aren't just one spell... it's just really awkward, particularly if you're looking at it without realizing how narrow it actually is.
If they wanted to make a feat for Warlocks to get an extra Invocation, then just do that--Prerequisite: Pact Magic feature, choose one Eldritch Invocation you're eligible for.
If they wanted to make a feat for non-Warlocks to get a Warlock feature, then just do that--Prerequisite: Spellcasting feature, choose one Eldritch Invocation from this list*.
There's no reason to shoehorn all that into one feat... just make two feats that are clear in what they actually do.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
I don't know. I really like the fact that these Feats are beneficial to pretty much anyone, including the the parent class the Feat is derived from. I agree that the language should be as clear as possible though to avoid confusion.
I don't think any of these are getting out of UA without major revision, if at all. I have mixed feelings about all of them, both good and bad, but the one that jumps out to me as just weird is Eldritch Adept. The only valid* options for (non-warlocks) to take are:
Armor of Shadows
Beast Speech
Beguiling Influence
Devil's Sight
Eyes of the Runekeeper
Fiendish Vigor
Gaze of Two Minds
Mask of Many Faces
Misty Visions
Thief of Five Fates.
Out of those 10, only 4 aren't just one spell... it's just really awkward, particularly if you're looking at it without realizing how narrow it actually is.
If they wanted to make a feat for Warlocks to get an extra Invocation, then just do that--Prerequisite: Pact Magic feature, choose one Eldritch Invocation you're eligible for.
If they wanted to make a feat for non-Warlocks to get a Warlock feature, then just do that--Prerequisite: Spellcasting feature, choose one Eldritch Invocation from this list*.
There's no reason to shoehorn all that into one feat... just make two feats that are clear in what they actually do.
Hold on, I just noticed something weird in the wording of the Thief of Five Fates Invocation:
Thief of Five Fates
You can cast bane once using a warlock spell slot. You can’t do so again until you finish a long rest.
So, you could take Eldritch Adept and choose this Invocation, but unless you have at least 1 level in Warlock, it's not going to do anything for you. This is the only Invocation on Sigred's list that shares this wording (other invocations that use this template have a level prerequisite) but it still seems... weird.
Good catch, and all the more reason to split the feat into two feats that are definitive in what they offer.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Well, nothing wrong with a druid or ranger taking the Beast Speech Invocation. Mask of Many Faces is just a flat out awesome ability - being able to cast Disguise Self at will is amazing. Even if the amount you can take is small, its immediately useful, imho.
I'm just really sick of the current 5e design philosophy becoming "let's just make class choices as close to meaningless as possible".
Give us new options that are meaningfully distinct from "here, have the thing that made other classes different". It's uninspired, and boring AF.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again as many times as needed: if I wanted to play a TTRPG system that lets players mix & match what they want out of everything available, I'd play a White Wolf game, not Dungeons & Dragons.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
I'm just really sick of the current 5e design philosophy becoming "let's just make class choices as close to meaningless as possible".
Give us new options that are meaningfully distinct from "here, have the thing that made other classes different". It's uninspired, and boring AF.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again as many times as needed: if I wanted to play a TTRPG system that lets players mix & match what they want out of everything available, I'd play a White Wolf game, not Dungeons & Dragons.
Uninspired? Maybe. But I don't see what's boring about metamagic in the hands of casters that don't normally have it, or squishy casters that can't normally use shields being able to use them.
I'm just really sick of the current 5e design philosophy becoming "let's just make class choices as close to meaningless as possible".
Give us new options that are meaningfully distinct from "here, have the thing that made other classes different". It's uninspired, and boring AF.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again as many times as needed: if I wanted to play a TTRPG system that lets players mix & match what they want out of everything available, I'd play a White Wolf game, not Dungeons & Dragons.
Uninspired? Maybe. But I don't see what's boring about metamagic in the hands of casters that don't normally have it, or squishy casters that can't normally use shields being able to use them.
Tell that to anyone playing a Sorcerer. Metamagic is the only thing that really differentiates them as a class. They are otherwise a very underpowered Wizard. Now the Wizard can just take a feat and get Metamagic? No. I don't care if it's only 2 Sorcery Points.
What would have required a minimum 3 levels in Sorcerer can now be picked up by anyone for 1 feat. 2 free uses of Twinned Spell on an attack cantrip per day? Why would I bother taking levels in Sorc if I can get basically everything anyone wants from the class for a single feat? It's dumb.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Tell that to anyone playing a Sorcerer. Metamagic is the only thing that really differentiates them as a class. They are otherwise a very underpowered Wizard. Now the Wizard can just take a feat and get Metamagic? No. I don't care if it's only 2 Sorcery Points.
What would have required a minimum 3 levels in Sorcerer can now be picked up by anyone for 1 feat. 2 free uses of Twinned Spell on an attack cantrip per day? Why would I bother taking levels in Sorc if I can get basically everything anyone wants from the class for a single feat? It's dumb.
And you don't see it as a problem that a feature that waits 3 levels to be unlocked, and only gives you additional options at few levels, is the defining feature of the class?
Also, as others have pointed out, even Sorcerers benefit from this feat by getting 2 extra points and additional metamagic which they can actually replace.
Oh hell no, I'm of the position that the core Sorcerer class progression is absolutely abhorrent as is. Sorc needs some major bonuses, full stop.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
This is 100% just my personal opinion, but "stepping on another class" is not a great reason to avoid doing something. If there is a good reason TO do someting, then not stepping on another class is a good warning to really do a creative and balanced job of doing the thing.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
There is a difference between gently sharing and stealing lol. Giving a whole full version of the class feature as a Feat is not only stepping on another classes toes, but is also almost too powerful
I think that would be a bit too powerful.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
Okay, these Metamagic, Invocation, and Superiority Dice feats step on other class's toes, but a Rage feat, or a Wild Shape would do more than that. They would stomp on their foot, breaking most of the bones inside of those class's foundations. I agree, in most of the cases where people claim a subclass "steps on another class's toes" it's normally not such a big deal to me (example: Fey-Wanderer Rangers and Horizon Walker Rangers, or Divine Soul Sorcerers and Clerics).
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
I just wonder how many warlocks would take quicken spell just to double up on Eldritch Blast as basically a version of action surge, which be nasty if they dipped fighter for 2 levels giving them the bonus action casting, then the casting and then the action surge casting which could mean 12 attack rolls with a potential of +5 damage for each hit at level 17+
Is at lvl 17+ game balance not more of an illusion than a thing? Or an agreement between players and DM.
Probably not a lot. That's one ASI/feat to double cast E.B. as a bonus action once per day. A pretty hefty price tag, especially when its just as likely we have Hex shinanigans going on for our bonus action, not counting the other bonus-actions the warlock can get. Most games end at around level 10 or 11, and taper off the higher the level. Even if we do get to level 18 warlock, that's only four ASI/feats. Two for +CHA, with two "open" slots for feats, with several big feats competing for attention, including Resilient (Con), Lucky, Crossbow Expert, War Caster, Spell Sniper, some of the better racial feats, Moderately Armored, Shield Master and Eldritch Adapt.
I personally would snag Eldritch Adapt before Metamagic Adapt.
Yeah, I conceded that when I said that I understood arguments that they were too strong. I just refuse to take "steps on someone's toes" as a valid argument. That very clearly has been tossed out the window. Something is reserved, until something official makes it not.
The problem with Barbarian and Druid is that Wildshape and Rage are so central to the class identity that any "apprentice" feat needs to touch on those, or its not really an apprentice feat at all. The Ranger-dip Tracker feat is a good example - it provides bonuses to tracking and hunting, and hunting is the core identity of the Ranger. So, a Barbarian dip feat should relate to Rages in some way. Maybe not provide another Rage use, but something that can be used to simulate the feeling of Rage.
I'm leaning the same way, if you could get your MM points back I would consider it, but now an extra high level invocation sounds better to be honest for a Warlock. It would give some more options in your building path.
You want the full package, take the class. You want a partial package, dip the class. You want a taste, take the feat. At every level, there is a cost involved in exchange for degrees of access to something that is desirable to the player at the table. In my opinion, a well-designed feat should respect this scale.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
I don't think any of these are getting out of UA without major revision, if at all. I have mixed feelings about all of them, both good and bad, but the one that jumps out to me as just weird is Eldritch Adept. The only valid* options for (non-warlocks) to take are:
Out of those 10, only 4 aren't just one spell... it's just really awkward, particularly if you're looking at it without realizing how narrow it actually is.
If they wanted to make a feat for Warlocks to get an extra Invocation, then just do that--Prerequisite: Pact Magic feature, choose one Eldritch Invocation you're eligible for.
If they wanted to make a feat for non-Warlocks to get a Warlock feature, then just do that--Prerequisite: Spellcasting feature, choose one Eldritch Invocation from this list*.
There's no reason to shoehorn all that into one feat... just make two feats that are clear in what they actually do.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
I don't know. I really like the fact that these Feats are beneficial to pretty much anyone, including the the parent class the Feat is derived from. I agree that the language should be as clear as possible though to avoid confusion.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
Hold on, I just noticed something weird in the wording of the Thief of Five Fates Invocation:
Thief of Five Fates
You can cast bane once using a warlock spell slot. You can’t do so again until you finish a long rest.
So, you could take Eldritch Adept and choose this Invocation, but unless you have at least 1 level in Warlock, it's not going to do anything for you. This is the only Invocation on Sigred's list that shares this wording (other invocations that use this template have a level prerequisite) but it still seems... weird.
Partway through the quest for absolute truth.
Good catch, and all the more reason to split the feat into two feats that are definitive in what they offer.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Well, nothing wrong with a druid or ranger taking the Beast Speech Invocation. Mask of Many Faces is just a flat out awesome ability - being able to cast Disguise Self at will is amazing. Even if the amount you can take is small, its immediately useful, imho.
I'm just really sick of the current 5e design philosophy becoming "let's just make class choices as close to meaningless as possible".
Give us new options that are meaningfully distinct from "here, have the thing that made other classes different". It's uninspired, and boring AF.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again as many times as needed: if I wanted to play a TTRPG system that lets players mix & match what they want out of everything available, I'd play a White Wolf game, not Dungeons & Dragons.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Uninspired? Maybe. But I don't see what's boring about metamagic in the hands of casters that don't normally have it, or squishy casters that can't normally use shields being able to use them.
Tell that to anyone playing a Sorcerer. Metamagic is the only thing that really differentiates them as a class. They are otherwise a very underpowered Wizard. Now the Wizard can just take a feat and get Metamagic? No. I don't care if it's only 2 Sorcery Points.
What would have required a minimum 3 levels in Sorcerer can now be picked up by anyone for 1 feat. 2 free uses of Twinned Spell on an attack cantrip per day? Why would I bother taking levels in Sorc if I can get basically everything anyone wants from the class for a single feat? It's dumb.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
And you don't see it as a problem that a feature that waits 3 levels to be unlocked, and only gives you additional options at few levels, is the defining feature of the class?
Also, as others have pointed out, even Sorcerers benefit from this feat by getting 2 extra points and additional metamagic which they can actually replace.
Oh hell no, I'm of the position that the core Sorcerer class progression is absolutely abhorrent as is. Sorc needs some major bonuses, full stop.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.