Ok Rogue 1, Ranger 4 character with mastery in scimitar(nick) and short sword (vex). My question is - is there any required order of these mastery forms. Does Vex or Nick need to be used first, OR does it not really matter if the weapon use has those mastery forms, and weapons that can be used with it.
Is the below correct?
Attack 1: Short sword - vex - advantage on next attack
Attack 2: Scimitar - nick, Ba attack moves to normal attack action and w/ advantage
Dual-Wielder-bonus attack: short sword/scimitar - really beside the point for my question.
Or does Nick need to be used first? The rules on mastery forms are not clear for Nick. I think some errata on this would be nice as the order of these impacts where sneak damage might possibly be done.
Oh boy. To quote Carl "CJ" Johnson: "Here we go again." You can find an article "explaining" the process here, but there has yet to be any official ruling. That said, you can also find easily a dozen different threads discussing this topic in this forum alone.This has been discussed ad nauseam, and the debate shows no signs of stopping.
Personally, I'm ruling that the Nick Weapon Mastery activates when you make the Light additional attack, though RAW allows it on either attack. My ruling is based on the article Your Guide to Weapon Mastery in the 2024 Player's Handbook linked by Jaysburn.
[...] It still functions the same way: When you make an attack with a weapon that has the Light property, you can use a Bonus Action to make one attack with a different Light weapon you’re wielding.
The Nick mastery property allows you to make the additional attack you receive from wielding two Light weapons as part of the initial attack action. [...]
Also, as noted, there are a lot of threads about this, with mention of Nick order in some way. Some of them are recent, or even updated today (*). Choose your own adventure:
This is a case of "the rules are unclear, ask your DM". Lots of people have arguments one way or the other, but ultimately it must come down to which of those arguments your DM agrees with.
Ok Rogue 1, Ranger 4 character with mastery in scimitar(nick) and short sword (vex). My question is - is there any required order of these mastery forms. Does Vex or Nick need to be used first, OR does it not really matter if the weapon use has those mastery forms, and weapons that can be used with it.
Is the below correct?
Attack 1: Short sword - vex - advantage on next attack
Attack 2: Scimitar - nick, Ba attack moves to normal attack action and w/ advantage
Dual-Wielder-bonus attack: short sword/scimitar - really beside the point for my question.
Or does Nick need to be used first? The rules on mastery forms are not clear for Nick. I think some errata on this would be nice as the order of these impacts where sneak damage might possibly be done.
Thanks. :-)
Yes, this is the correct sequence. The Nick weapon is used during the second attack of this sequence.
The Nick mastery property is used "when you make the extra attack of the Light property", so that's the moment when we determine if the weapon being used has the necessary mastery property.
In addition, it wouldn't make sense for this Nick mastery property rule to be triggered by a Nick weapon during the initial attack of the sequence because theoretically a weapon with the Nick mastery property does not necessarily have the Light property. As it turns out, among the standard weapons that are listed in the current iteration of the PHB, all of the ones that have the Nick mastery property do also have the Light property. However, it's possible that some future published adventure or source book could invent a new weapon which contains the Nick mastery property but does not have the Light property. If the initial attack of the sequence is not made with a weapon which has the Light property, then the Nick mastery property cannot be used since it is triggered "when you make the extra attack of the Light property".
As for the third attack in the OP's sequence which results from the Dual Wielder Feat, that attack can be made with either weapon since you would simply declare the first attack or the second attack in the Nick sequence to be the triggering attack of the Dual Wielder Feat (assuming that your Nick weapon also has the Light property).
I wouldn't expect to see a non-light weapon with the Nick property in any official release. It would be a propertiless weapon for anyone who didn't specifically take the DW feat even with the more favorable interpretation of the sequence (and defeats the purpose altogether with the other, as you pointed out).
In addition, it wouldn't make sense for this Nick mastery property rule to be triggered by a Nick weapon during the initial attack of the sequence because theoretically a weapon with the Nick mastery property does not necessarily have the Light property. As it turns out, among the standard weapons that are listed in the current iteration of the PHB, all of the ones that have the Nick mastery property do also have the Light property. However, it's possible that some future published adventure or source book could invent a new weapon which contains the Nick mastery property but does not have the Light property. If the initial attack of the sequence is not made with a weapon which has the Light property, then the Nick mastery property cannot be used since it is triggered "when you make the extra attack of the Light property".
Having Nick on a non-Light weapon would be useless, it wouldn't do anything. The Light property requires both the first and second attack to be made with a Light weapon.
Now it is of course possible that future game features modifies that but I don't think they had any such future proofing in mind considering the way they designed the Dual Wielder feat.
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Ok Rogue 1, Ranger 4 character with mastery in scimitar(nick) and short sword (vex). My question is - is there any required order of these mastery forms. Does Vex or Nick need to be used first, OR does it not really matter if the weapon use has those mastery forms, and weapons that can be used with it.
Is the below correct?
Or does Nick need to be used first? The rules on mastery forms are not clear for Nick. I think some errata on this would be nice as the order of these impacts where sneak damage might possibly be done.
Thanks. :-)
Oh boy. To quote Carl "CJ" Johnson: "Here we go again."
You can find an article "explaining" the process here, but there has yet to be any official ruling. That said, you can also find easily a dozen different threads discussing this topic in this forum alone. This has been discussed ad nauseam, and the debate shows no signs of stopping.
Easy answer; ask your DM what they allow/prefer.
Personally, I'm ruling that the Nick Weapon Mastery activates when you make the Light additional attack, though RAW allows it on either attack. My ruling is based on the article Your Guide to Weapon Mastery in the 2024 Player's Handbook linked by Jaysburn.
Also, as noted, there are a lot of threads about this, with mention of Nick order in some way. Some of them are recent, or even updated today (*). Choose your own adventure:
This is a case of "the rules are unclear, ask your DM". Lots of people have arguments one way or the other, but ultimately it must come down to which of those arguments your DM agrees with.
Yes, this is the correct sequence. The Nick weapon is used during the second attack of this sequence.
The Nick mastery property is used "when you make the extra attack of the Light property", so that's the moment when we determine if the weapon being used has the necessary mastery property.
In addition, it wouldn't make sense for this Nick mastery property rule to be triggered by a Nick weapon during the initial attack of the sequence because theoretically a weapon with the Nick mastery property does not necessarily have the Light property. As it turns out, among the standard weapons that are listed in the current iteration of the PHB, all of the ones that have the Nick mastery property do also have the Light property. However, it's possible that some future published adventure or source book could invent a new weapon which contains the Nick mastery property but does not have the Light property. If the initial attack of the sequence is not made with a weapon which has the Light property, then the Nick mastery property cannot be used since it is triggered "when you make the extra attack of the Light property".
As for the third attack in the OP's sequence which results from the Dual Wielder Feat, that attack can be made with either weapon since you would simply declare the first attack or the second attack in the Nick sequence to be the triggering attack of the Dual Wielder Feat (assuming that your Nick weapon also has the Light property).
I wouldn't expect to see a non-light weapon with the Nick property in any official release. It would be a propertiless weapon for anyone who didn't specifically take the DW feat even with the more favorable interpretation of the sequence (and defeats the purpose altogether with the other, as you pointed out).
Edit: wrong feat.
Having Nick on a non-Light weapon would be useless, it wouldn't do anything. The Light property requires both the first and second attack to be made with a Light weapon.
Now it is of course possible that future game features modifies that but I don't think they had any such future proofing in mind considering the way they designed the Dual Wielder feat.