Quote from BadEye >>

Quote from screa11 >>

Quote from Aerchon >>

Quote from Eldritch_Song >>

Quote from Aerchon >>

That being said, has there been any discussion about some sort of "ultimate" package at launch.  All available in print/digital releases for a discounted price.  Obviously buying the 3 core books for $60 is mandatory, but since I am the DM, I would rather just shell out the cost up front, and work with my groups to have people pitch in what they want since I will be holding the master tier.  

Also, any word on annual subscriptions?

 I'd also like to add my support to this idea. It'd be awesome to be able to purchase all available content as a bundle for a discount.

 Hey All:

So now we have two on the forum interested in some sort of Launch Day Ultimate Package, one more and that's a trend!.  If anyone else would be interested in this, please respond to this so we can show interest to the developers.  Be honest with yourself though though, this will be a $250+ package, so if you would not be willing to slap down the cash for that, don't sign up.  I think if enough (using that term gently because this is of course just the forum) people show interest, they might pitch it to their sales team.

@BadEye:  What do you think?

 

 I'd be worried about my wallet catching fire from pulling my credit card out to fast

I guess we'll make at least three people really happy at some point this week then!

Quote from Matthias_von_Schwarzwald >>

Quote from Ikerus >>

Haha point proven. Pretty much the response I've expected. Wonderful player-base you're collecting here curse. I'm sure it'll make people all warm and fuzzy inside - ready to throw piles of money into playing with them to be sure.

 

I've never said once to cancel the payment options they currently have. I'm saying some people literally might not be able to afford buying the content again up front - no matter what format it's in. Or they just don't want to. So if there was a player base of 200 people let's say... And half of them would purchase the way things are currently set up, and the other half can't or won't purchase it with the current set up... You guys would argue and rather see half the player base diminish? That means a lot of lost revenue for curse. Those same players might purchase more down the road. Or it might be more attractive for people wanting to get in and get their feet wet... Those people also may purchase down the road 

 

So people want to pay a reasonable sub. Whether they are unsure of the future of the product or The upfront cost alone is enough to deter them. Isn't that their choice if the option is there? That still doesn't impact your own purchasing method. You are very much welcome purchase all the content and then own it.

3 months... 5 months down the road, perhaps those players paying subs decides it is in their interest financially or what not to purchase the books and content. Is that not also a win for everyone. Again, in no way does that impact what you have payed or purchased. I might purchase for my group... So why in any which way do you give a rats behind if people want another pay option? Let them ask for it and have it if curse decides it's a good idea. Argue argue argue... It in no way effects you. If they want to pay 4000 dollars more in the long run - let them! If it increases playerbase and gets them comfortable enough to buy...again... What the &@#_ do any of you care?

Unlike a PS4 game or any other console game; you need to find a group to play with for D&D. I've been hearing about the horror stories of finding groups. If you are One of the lucky ones to have found a player base or good DM, then congrats. But for some, that uncertainty is also enhanced by a large paywall of not to invest. The game is fresh. As time goes on, without a good incentive to jump in, the player base might become less and less. A lot of groups will fill up, find their core players and that's that.

As I said, I have a pretty solid group. Some of which can't afford that pay wall I mentioned. So ok, I have a good group, I have the finances to purchase the content and pay the Dm sub so I can play with these players. But some don't. So it might be worth my money and time. .we'll see. I wish it was a bit more of a VTT, but whatever. Most can't and that means less players.

Not everyone has the time to input all the information either. Again, telling people it's free. . Take it or leave it is stupid. I'd rather people take it. No one is telling you not to purchase...so why are you people all up in everyone else's faces about what they want to see as payment options as consumers? 

And you totally read my whole post. Just like you read this one. 

Now we're done son.

 

 Sigh. 

They're not trying to convince people not to play, they're trying to convince them that a subscription, over a long period of time, will cost more than paying for the books.  Several of your other points are quite good, however.  Please stop insulting each other, all of you. 

tQuote from JRedmond >>

Quote from HamsterHead >>

Seeing WotC track record of digital tools I cannot buy the books again. I paid print, paid Fantasy Grounds and Roll20 (over $350us). I am not going to pay again for another tool. Why do I need to pay again to look at the options for a pally on the computer. Just let me buy a PDF and use it in any tool I want. 

I know if you buy a VHS tape of a movie you dont get the DVD for free but i bught the DVD and i get recharged everytime i put it in as different DVD player.

Want me to buy the books for D&D beyond, then buy back my books on Fantasy Grounds. 

 You bought the DVD, this is the BluRay sorry homie.

Quote from Stashravens >>

tQuote from JRedmond >>

Quote from HamsterHead >>

Seeing WotC track record of digital tools I cannot buy the books again. I paid print, paid Fantasy Grounds and Roll20 (over $350us). I am not going to pay again for another tool. Why do I need to pay again to look at the options for a pally on the computer. Just let me buy a PDF and use it in any tool I want. 

I know if you buy a VHS tape of a movie you dont get the DVD for free but i bught the DVD and i get recharged everytime i put it in as different DVD player.

Want me to buy the books for D&D beyond, then buy back my books on Fantasy Grounds. 

 You bought the DVD, this is the BluRay sorry homie.

 Not really.  This is the digital content, and keeping with the DVD/Blu-Ray analogy, you can buy most movie releases in Blu-Ray for around $20, or choose to pay $24-29 for an additional DVD and access to the digital equivalent.

Quote from tehguitarist >>

Quote from Stashravens >>

tQuote from JRedmond >>

Quote from HamsterHead >>

Seeing WotC track record of digital tools I cannot buy the books again. I paid print, paid Fantasy Grounds and Roll20 (over $350us). I am not going to pay again for another tool. Why do I need to pay again to look at the options for a pally on the computer. Just let me buy a PDF and use it in any tool I want. 

I know if you buy a VHS tape of a movie you dont get the DVD for free but i bught the DVD and i get recharged everytime i put it in as different DVD player.

Want me to buy the books for D&D beyond, then buy back my books on Fantasy Grounds. 

 You bought the DVD, this is the BluRay sorry homie.

 Not really.  This is the digital content, and keeping with the DVD/Blu-Ray analogy, you can buy most movie releases in Blu-Ray for around $20, or choose to pay $24-29 for an additional DVD and access to the digital equivalent.

 Just to make the "one per page" response to this argument.
This is less the DVD/Blu-Ray argument, and more the Paperback, audio book argument.

Different formats, different providers. For example, Tor books released the Wheel of Time novels. McMillan Audiobooks LICENSED the book, and sells an audiobook copy, paying Tor/the authors estate a commission (depending on how the deal was brokered, but it doesn't overly matter here). One does not entitle you to the other as they are separate entities. Dynamite Comics then LICENSED the story for a comic book adaptation. Same thing applies.

WOTC is not: Roll20, Fantasy Grounds, Curse/DDB. They may ENDORSE those companies. But those companies LICENSE that IP from WOTC.

To make this clearer for those who don't know how licensing works. Say WOTC says they want... $15 per core book as the licensing fee for any of these companies to use their intellectual property. This is totally reasonable (if you consider that printing costs, distribution, marketing, layout, editing all factor into the hardcopy, and the fact that this is being licensed, it would be bad business decisions that led to them making less money off licensed products vs the products [hardcovers]  that they produce). Now to counter the argument "I've bought the hardcovers, roll20 and fantasy grounds. Well, Roll20 and Fantasy Grounds AND Curse LICENSE this stuff. WOTC doesn't care if you use it or not. They're not pushing it, if you buy it, awesome, if not, they have their own product line. So why aren't you entitled to digital copies when you buy the hardcopies? Because these companies are not WOTC, they buy a license, and pass it on to you. Where does the extra money on top of the license come from? All the extra work converting the content into a useable product (in whatever form it comes).

Why can't you get things cheaper (you will never ever get it free), is because Curse, Roll20 & FG have all done EXTRA work to get all the content in a useable format. WOTC just goes, yeah sure, go ahead and use the content.)
You can't prove you own something because a) the manpower involved from WOTC isn't worth it, b) there is no unique identifier to each book, c) you could on-sell your book or borrow a buddies, d) you could go to your FLGS and steal it.

Will there be codes in books in the future? Maybe... that's up to discussions between third party providers and WOTC and ALL it will do is reduce or remove the licensing component of the price.

Why do I have to pay so much for a subscription if it gets me nothing!!!??? 1) You don't have to, 2) There is a road map for new features, 3) Nothing is free and the amount Curse is giving away for free is astounding. 4) If you really want, you can homebrew EVERY DAMN OFFICIAL THING and still pay nothing, and get nearly all the tools with a very small amount of limitations (at the moment), if your argument to this is "but that takes so much time!!!" then how much is your time worth to you? Say you can do... 5 monsters an hour, just say. Say there are 100 missing monsters. there is 20 hours. Say you value your time at $20 an hour... Hot damn you just wasted $400 of your time. If you don't value your time or don't mind. Awesome... If you do, well that cost could get you a subscription for an entire year PLUS EVERY WOTC book to date... all for the price of 100 monsters you didn't need to do yourself.

That should be most of the standard responses that get brought up every few pages.

Quote from tehguitarist>>

Quote from Stashravens>>

tQuote from JRedmond>>

Quote from HamsterHead>>

Seeing WotC track record of digital tools I cannot buy the books again. I paid print, paid Fantasy Grounds and Roll20 (over $350us). I am not going to pay again for another tool. Why do I need to pay again to look at the options for a pally on the computer. Just let me buy a PDF and use it in any tool I want. 

I know if you buy a VHS tape of a movie you dont get the DVD for free but i bught the DVD and i get recharged everytime i put it in as different DVD player.

Want me to buy the books for D&D beyond, then buy back my books on Fantasy Grounds. 

 You bought the DVD, this is the BluRay sorry homie.

 Not really.  This is the digital content, and keeping with the DVD/Blu-Ray analogy, you can buy most movie releases in Blu-Ray for around $20, or choose to pay $24-29 for an additional DVD and access to the digital equivalent.

 Just to make the "one per page" response to this argument.
This is less the DVD/Blu-Ray argument, and more the Paperback, audio book argument.

Different formats, different providers. For example, Tor books released the Wheel of Time novels. McMillan Audiobooks LICENSED the book, and sells an audiobook copy, paying Tor/the authors estate a commission (depending on how the deal was brokered, but it doesn't overly matter here). One does not entitle you to the other as they are separate entities. Dynamite Comics then LICENSED the story for a comic book adaptation. Same thing applies.

WOTC is not: Roll20, Fantasy Grounds, Curse/DDB. They may ENDORSE those companies. But those companies LICENSE that IP from WOTC.

To make this clearer for those who don't know how licensing works. Say WOTC says they want... $15 per core book as the licensing fee for any of these companies to use their intellectual property. This is totally reasonable (if you consider that printing costs, distribution, marketing, layout, editing all factor into the hardcopy, and the fact that this is being licensed, it would be bad business decisions that led to them making less money off licensed products vs the products [hardcovers]  that they produce). Now to counter the argument "I've bought the hardcovers, roll20 and fantasy grounds. Well, Roll20 and Fantasy Grounds AND Curse LICENSE this stuff. WOTC doesn't care if you use it or not. They're not pushing it, if you buy it, awesome, if not, they have their own product line. So why aren't you entitled to digital copies when you buy the hardcopies? Because these companies are not WOTC, they buy a license, and pass it on to you. Where does the extra money on top of the license come from? All the extra work converting the content into a useable product (in whatever form it comes).

Why can't you get things cheaper (you will never ever get it free), is because Curse, Roll20 & FG have all done EXTRA work to get all the content in a useable format. WOTC just goes, yeah sure, go ahead and use the content.)
You can't prove you own something because a) the manpower involved from WOTC isn't worth it, b) there is no unique identifier to each book, c) you could on-sell your book or borrow a buddies, d) you could go to your FLGS and steal it.

Will there be codes in books in the future? Maybe... that's up to discussions between third party providers and WOTC and ALL it will do is reduce or remove the licensing component of the price.

Why do I have to pay so much for a subscription if it gets me nothing!!!??? 1) You don't have to, 2) There is a road map for new features, 3) Nothing is free and the amount Curse is giving away for free is astounding. 4) If you really want, you can homebrew EVERY DAMN OFFICIAL THING and still pay nothing, and get nearly all the tools with a very small amount of limitations (at the moment), if your argument to this is "but that takes so much time!!!" then how much is your time worth to you? Say you can do... 5 monsters an hour, just say. Say there are 100 missing monsters. there is 20 hours. Say you value your time at $20 an hour... Hot damn you just wasted $400 of your time. If you don't value your time or don't mind. Awesome... If you do, well that cost could get you a subscription for an entire year PLUS EVERY WOTC book to date... all for the price of 100 monsters you didn't need to do yourself.

That should be most of the standard responses that get brought up every few pages.

 

Quote from gksmithlcw >>

Quote from Sedge >>

One is not 'gaining electronic access' to their previously-owned physical copies.  One is purchasing a new license for intellectual property offered in a different medium.

One does not receive a free DVD because they purchased the VHS years prior.  We all choose which medium to purchase our entertainment, knowing it can be outdated as technology advances.  :D

 https://www.vudu.com/in_mobile_disc_to_digital.html

Homebrew is moderated so official content does not get published PUBLICLY (It's fine for private) so that's a totally viable way of not paying for the books.

See my argument above, getting a digital copy with your blu ray isn't really the same, it's like a kindle version of your paperbook, exactly the same thing, just different way of viewing it. The analog of DDB and say the PHB would be closer to... Ok lets once again use wheel of time. Currently it exists in a novel (kindle, paperback and hardback), an audio book, a comic (digital, individual issues and TPBs) and has been licensed for a movie. Whilst they all cover the same IP, they are consumed in entirely different manners. None of them give me any reason to think I would get a discount on any of the others in terms of form factor. Maybe buying the paperback gets you the kindle version, but all the rest are published by entirely different companies LICENSING the IP.

If there is a bundle, that's because DDB will probably have to PAY WOTC for that privilege, as it wouldn't make wotc any extra money to do so. It's not WOTC being mean, or uncaring, it's just business. That's not to say WOTC won't throw their full support behind DDB, they already are putting a lot of support into them, but that's yet to be seen.

11 days to go. Getting very excited. 

I would say that it is bad form to have the prices for the bundles only mentioned by the staff that far down the line, and not in the original posting.

Quote from tehguitarist >>

The analog of DDB and say the PHB would be closer to... Ok lets once again use wheel of time. Currently it exists in a novel (kindle, paperback and hardback), an audio book, a comic (digital, individual issues and TPBs) and has been licensed for a movie. Whilst they all cover the same IP, they are consumed in entirely different manners.

Quote from BadEye >>

Quote from TheInkStainedKnight >>

I would say that it is bad form to have the prices for the bundles only mentioned by the staff that far down the line, and not in the original posting.

Not bad form at all - just not the point of the original post.

We will have a post very soon that gives every single pricing detail, including some new options that haven't been talked about yet.

Quote from Aerchon >>

Quote from Eldritch_Song >>

Quote from Aerchon >>

That being said, has there been any discussion about some sort of "ultimate" package at launch.  All available in print/digital releases for a discounted price.  Obviously buying the 3 core books for $60 is mandatory, but since I am the DM, I would rather just shell out the cost up front, and work with my groups to have people pitch in what they want since I will be holding the master tier.  

Also, any word on annual subscriptions?

 I'd also like to add my support to this idea. It'd be awesome to be able to purchase all available content as a bundle for a discount.

 Hey All:

So now we have two on the forum interested in some sort of Launch Day Ultimate Package, one more and that's a trend!.  If anyone else would be interested in this, please respond to this so we can show interest to the developers.  Be honest with yourself though though, this will be a $250+ package, so if you would not be willing to slap down the cash for that, don't sign up.  I think if enough (using that term gently because this is of course just the forum) people show interest, they might pitch it to their sales team.

@BadEye:  What do you think?

 

Quote from Drakimor >>

Quote from tehguitarist >>

The analog of DDB and say the PHB would be closer to... Ok lets once again use wheel of time. Currently it exists in a novel (kindle, paperback and hardback), an audio book, a comic (digital, individual issues and TPBs) and has been licensed for a movie. Whilst they all cover the same IP, they are consumed in entirely different manners.

I half agree with this analogy, and it's good... but it proves the opposite point than I think you intended... let me explain:

The comic is the same base story and characters, but has different content included. It has art and the story is reformatted and probably heavily edited. It's a different product entirely even though it shares a name. It took more effort and money to produce and most importantly IS NOT the book. It's a new product with new value. Now... you're probably thinking "well that's true here too" and it is, to a tiny extent. Hence the monthly fee. I haven't seen anyone argue against that, only the book costs on top of it. To say a digital vs print book, and a print book vs comic are the same is like saying a movie "based on" a book is the same. They aren't the same product in a different medium, they are different base products.

Your argument is basically that DDB is like the comic, with different content, which is simply not true. It's the exact same content in a different format. No new classes, no new feats etc. No new stories even. It's the same words, same art. Thus same product. That is where the digital copy argument comes in. If I get a kindle copy with my physical book (something that happens often these days) I can search it, I can do electronic bookmarks etc. Did I pay more? Some times, $1-2. I did NOT have to re-buy the book. PDF copy is the same. So those arguments hold water and are easy to find in other industries, and even RPGs. The newest 7th Sea release gave me both for the same price.

If Wizards/Curse were to produce unique content here, vs copy paste, like the comic is unique content separate from the book, then I'd agree paying for it is appropriate.

Now your example of the audio book is the only one I can't quite classify well. Technically it's the same content, the words, without reformatting, but yet entirely different. It's not just a medium change. I'll have to think on that one :)

As someone trying to write an article about DDB, having to go through this entire thread to get the pricing for all of the pricing was less than ideal. If you have all the pricing info when you are talking about pricing, it would be best, in my not at all humble opinion, to include it all. You replied to someone doing the math of building that paladin with information that person had no way of knowing, had the prices for bundles been in the OP, that guy wouldn't have even posted that, most likely.

But on a more substantive note, for a Master level subscriber to share their content with others, do they have to be Hero level subscribers or can they be basic level?

Quote from TheInkStainedKnight >>

But on a more substantive note, for a Master level subscriber to share their content with others, do they have to be Hero level subscribers or can they be basic level?

Sorry, I did go through every single staff post on this thread and didn't find the answer so....more to add to my not best form comment above.

Quote from TheInkStainedKnight >>

As someone trying to write an article about DDB, having to go through this entire thread to get the pricing for all of the pricing was less than ideal. If you have all the pricing info when you are talking about pricing, it would be best, in my not at all humble opinion, to include it all. You replied to someone doing the math of building that paladin with information that person had no way of knowing, had the prices for bundles been in the OP, that guy wouldn't have even posted that, most likely.