As I posted in this thread, I'm still struggling with some of the big differences between 1E and 5E.
The above issue means that a 2nd level druid with, say, a 16 Constitution, and who rolled high for HP for 2nd level, could withstand close to 100 hp of damage:
37 hp for first Dire Wolf shape
37 hp for second Dire Wolf shape (74)
22 hp of his/her own (96)
That's just insane to me.
Yes, it's insane. But that's what a Druid who chooses Circle of the Moon is best at. Absorbing tons and tons of damage and distracting the party's opponents while the damage dealers take out their opponents. As other people have commented, the Circle of the Moon Druid isn't doing a ton of damage in Wild Shape. But they're absorbing attacks and protecting their buddies from tons of damage.
And remember, they're not casting anything in those forms and doing basic animal damage of something less than their CR. Being a big hit point sponge is not all that OP :)
Ancient GM, started in '76, have played almost everything at some point or another.
I run/play Mercer-style games, heavy on the RP and interaction, light on the combat-monster and rule-lawyering. The goal is to tell an epic story with the players and the players are as involved in the world building as the GM is. I run and play a very Brechtian style, am huge into RP theory and love discussing improv and offers.
Moon druids also can burn spell slots to heal (which is not casting a spell) for 1d8*spell level as a bonus action while wildshaped.
So in your example: druid has 22hp in natural form, assumes wild shape once: new form, dire wolf, has 37 hp. Gets hit for 18hp. On their next turn they attack as normal and use a bonus action to heal for 1d8(5). They will now survive a second 18 point hit in shape.
Edit: for raw damage, brown bear is significantly better, if you're solo, but pack tactics is great if in a party
But wait, they get crit for 36 hp, popping them back into nature form and they take the residual damage. Oh no! They're at 10hp! On their turn, they heal for 1d8+WIS (5+3) cure wounds (phew, that's better, 18/22hp), and bonus action shape into another dire wolf! Again, now they're fresh at 37, and if they get knocked back out of shape, he's back at 18/22
Moon druids have a very weird power curve. At low levels, they are super strong. It tapers off until they get the elemental forms, then tapers off again until 20, at least from my experience playing one.
Moon druids have a very weird power curve. At low levels, they are super strong. It tapers off until they get the elemental forms, then tapers off again until 20, at least from my experience playing one.
Conjure Animals and Polymorph can fill out that mid-level gap pretty nicely.
Something I don't quite understand is: if Mage Armor lasts 8 hours without concentration, then why does Barkskin require concentration when the AC benefit it provides not even necessarily better? Is the whole reason to make Moon Druids less reliant on that spell and more reliant on another caster buffing them?
Something I don't quite understand is: if Mage Armor lasts 8 hours without concentration, then why does Barkskin require concentration when the AC benefit it provides not even necessarily better? Is the whole reason to make Moon Druids less reliant on that spell and more reliant on another caster buffing them?
Maybe:
Historically: Mage armor has always been a long term buff while Barkskin was more of a short term buff.
Balance-wise:
Beasts often have low dex (lowering the value of Mage armor for them compared to Barkskin)
Beast are normally expected to have low AC's.
Druids are already pretty powerful
Allowing Druids to cast Barkskin multiple times could lead to a pretty powerful horde (since Druids tend to obtain/conjure lots of Beast allies)
I guess that's also in line with how the dev team decided to make summoning more difficult and only higher tier accessible to Wizards as opposed to Druids.
Druids have the same summoning abilities as wizards with the same restrictions. Possibly more/less in terms of specific spells, but just as much in potency.
The strength of druids, especially moon druids, is in creating 2 no-fly-zones for enemies, one being a zoning spell, the other being the druids themselves.
Summoning is very powerful, but just as situational as other concentration spells.
Druids require a great deal of strategic planning and knowledge of as much of your spell list as possible.
Druids get Conjure Animals at level 5. Wizards get Summon Lesser Demons at the same level. They both can summon small elementals staring at level 7 and stronger ones at level 9. However, demons and elementals are less reliable allies. Without time to prepare magical precautions, demons and elementals could very well turn against you or your party members.
It used to be that Wizards had a bunch of Summon Monster _ spells. Those have been take away, quite intentionally no doubt.
Those spells entirely broke the game, though. That's why they're gone. Summoner builds explicitly make the DM target you (or you and your party) with exceptionally broken encounters that will quickly stop being fun. Using them occasionally is fine.
Yes, that's why I said "quite intentionally." And the corollary to the lack of Summon Monster spells is that Druids became the generally better summoner class b/c Conjure Animals is much more reliable than most demon/elemental summoning spells worth a toke. Wizards get more magical variety but have to learn spells one by one. Not a coincidence that around the time Wizards get 9th level spells, Druids finally get to cast some spells while in Wild Shape.
A Halfling / druid when using shapeshifting can use a Race feature " Halfling Nimbleness: You can move through the space of any creature that is of a size larger than yours."?
Ex: shapeshifting to a Bear can he move without provoke opportunity attack?
A Halfling / druid when using shapeshifting can use a Race feature " Halfling Nimbleness: You can move through the space of any creature that is of a size larger than yours."?
Ex: shapeshifting to a Bear can he move without provoke opportunity attack?
How to Deal with It ?
Halfling Nimbleness trait does not make you less of a target. It just improves your mobility options. Opportunity attacks would still apply.
Now, does Wildshaping into a Large size creature enable to you move through the space of a Huge size creature if your base race is Halfling? That would depend on whether the DM interprets Halfling Nimbleness as something very much tied to the Halfling's size and habits associated with being Small, or tied to the essence of being a Halfling.
Halfling Nimbleness allows a Halfling to move through the space of a creature one size categorylarger than it.
Page 190 PHB
You can move through a non-hostile creature’s space. In contrast, you can move through a hostile creature's space only if the creature is at least two sizes largeror smaller than you. Remember that another creature’s space is difficult terrain for you.
The bold part is the important part here.
This does not, in any way, affect Opportunity Attacks. If the Halfling exits the threat range of a creature, no matter it's size, it will provoke an OA unless they Disengage.
Wildshape does not, generally, maintain the same benefit from Halfling Nimbleness. That would be something that the DM would have to decide on.
The druid, in Dire Wolf form, takes 25 hp of damage, taking him down to 12 hp (of the Wild Shape hp).
Can the druid use Wild Shape to become a Dire Wolf again and go back to 37 hp?
Yes. But shifting out-of and into Wildshape is each a bonus action, so he would not be able to do it on the same turn
True shifting into a form CAN be done as a bonus action for a circle of the moon druid but it can also be done as an action by any druid with the Wildshape feature INCLUDING one who is circle of the moon, evidenced by the wording "..you gain the ability.." in this case. Bonus action drop form, action assume new form. There are a few instances in the books where a feature referencing something already established elsewhere can lead to this sort of misinterpretation. (Like action surge; Which reminds you that you still get a bonus action when it is used but when skimmed could appear to give you an additional action AND bonus action.)
Yes, it's insane. But that's what a Druid who chooses Circle of the Moon is best at. Absorbing tons and tons of damage and distracting the party's opponents while the damage dealers take out their opponents. As other people have commented, the Circle of the Moon Druid isn't doing a ton of damage in Wild Shape. But they're absorbing attacks and protecting their buddies from tons of damage.
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And remember, they're not casting anything in those forms and doing basic animal damage of something less than their CR. Being a big hit point sponge is not all that OP :)
Ancient GM, started in '76, have played almost everything at some point or another.
I run/play Mercer-style games, heavy on the RP and interaction, light on the combat-monster and rule-lawyering. The goal is to tell an epic story with the players and the players are as involved in the world building as the GM is. I run and play a very Brechtian style, am huge into RP theory and love discussing improv and offers.
2nd level moon druid can do better than that:
Moon druids also can burn spell slots to heal (which is not casting a spell) for 1d8*spell level as a bonus action while wildshaped.
So in your example: druid has 22hp in natural form, assumes wild shape once: new form, dire wolf, has 37 hp. Gets hit for 18hp. On their next turn they attack as normal and use a bonus action to heal for 1d8(5). They will now survive a second 18 point hit in shape.
Edit: for raw damage, brown bear is significantly better, if you're solo, but pack tactics is great if in a party
But wait, they get crit for 36 hp, popping them back into nature form and they take the residual damage. Oh no! They're at 10hp! On their turn, they heal for 1d8+WIS (5+3) cure wounds (phew, that's better, 18/22hp), and bonus action shape into another dire wolf! Again, now they're fresh at 37, and if they get knocked back out of shape, he's back at 18/22
Cast concentration spell then wildshape. You're a battlefield control monster now
Moon druids have a very weird power curve. At low levels, they are super strong. It tapers off until they get the elemental forms, then tapers off again until 20, at least from my experience playing one.
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The wildshape forms are pretty easy to hit, and each hit might break concentration.
Conjure Animals and Polymorph can fill out that mid-level gap pretty nicely.
Warcaster is your friend.
Something I don't quite understand is: if Mage Armor lasts 8 hours without concentration, then why does Barkskin require concentration when the AC benefit it provides not even necessarily better? Is the whole reason to make Moon Druids less reliant on that spell and more reliant on another caster buffing them?
Maybe:
Good points.
I guess that's also in line with how the dev team decided to make summoning more difficult and only higher tier accessible to Wizards as opposed to Druids.
Druids have the same summoning abilities as wizards with the same restrictions. Possibly more/less in terms of specific spells, but just as much in potency.
The strength of druids, especially moon druids, is in creating 2 no-fly-zones for enemies, one being a zoning spell, the other being the druids themselves.
Summoning is very powerful, but just as situational as other concentration spells.
Druids require a great deal of strategic planning and knowledge of as much of your spell list as possible.
Druids get Conjure Animals at level 5. Wizards get Summon Lesser Demons at the same level. They both can summon small elementals staring at level 7 and stronger ones at level 9. However, demons and elementals are less reliable allies. Without time to prepare magical precautions, demons and elementals could very well turn against you or your party members.
It used to be that Wizards had a bunch of Summon Monster _ spells. Those have been take away, quite intentionally no doubt.
Those spells entirely broke the game, though. That's why they're gone. Summoner builds explicitly make the DM target you (or you and your party) with exceptionally broken encounters that will quickly stop being fun. Using them occasionally is fine.
Yes, that's why I said "quite intentionally." And the corollary to the lack of Summon Monster spells is that Druids became the generally better summoner class b/c Conjure Animals is much more reliable than most demon/elemental summoning spells worth a toke. Wizards get more magical variety but have to learn spells one by one. Not a coincidence that around the time Wizards get 9th level spells, Druids finally get to cast some spells while in Wild Shape.
I apologize, I read your post as a criticism of druids, and not the criticism of summoning spells it was intended to be.
I agree with you on all points
Guys I have a question:
A Halfling / druid when using shapeshifting can use a Race feature " Halfling Nimbleness: You can move through the space of any creature that is of a size larger than yours."?
Ex: shapeshifting to a Bear can he move without provoke opportunity attack?
How to Deal with It ?
TKS!
Halfling Nimbleness trait does not make you less of a target. It just improves your mobility options. Opportunity attacks would still apply.
Now, does Wildshaping into a Large size creature enable to you move through the space of a Huge size creature if your base race is Halfling? That would depend on whether the DM interprets Halfling Nimbleness as something very much tied to the Halfling's size and habits associated with being Small, or tied to the essence of being a Halfling.
Halfling Nimbleness allows a Halfling to move through the space of a creature one size category larger than it.
Page 190 PHB
The bold part is the important part here.
This does not, in any way, affect Opportunity Attacks. If the Halfling exits the threat range of a creature, no matter it's size, it will provoke an OA unless they Disengage.
Wildshape does not, generally, maintain the same benefit from Halfling Nimbleness. That would be something that the DM would have to decide on.
True shifting into a form CAN be done as a bonus action for a circle of the moon druid but it can also be done as an action by any druid with the Wildshape feature INCLUDING one who is circle of the moon, evidenced by the wording "..you gain the ability.." in this case. Bonus action drop form, action assume new form. There are a few instances in the books where a feature referencing something already established elsewhere can lead to this sort of misinterpretation. (Like action surge; Which reminds you that you still get a bonus action when it is used but when skimmed could appear to give you an additional action AND bonus action.)
You don’t need to drop your current form to assume a new one.