Monstrous Compendium Vol. 1: Spelljammer Creatures
Frozen Sick
D&D Beyond Basic Rules
Basic Rules (2014)
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Monstrous Compendium Vol. 1: Spelljammer CreaturesFrozen SickD&D Beyond Basic RulesBasic Rules (2014)Sign in to view your library & saved favorites.
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Okay, I'm feeling a bit under the weather, so maybe my searching didn't come up with an answer because I'm a little bleary-eyed, but... Potent Dragonmark gives you a spell slot of a level up to half your level (max level 5), which you can use to cast any spell you have prepared from your Dragonmark spell list, and makes it so all your dragonmark spells are always prepared. So, for the purpose of this experiment, if we're level 10, can a non-spellcaster cast a fifth-level spell from their Dragonmark spell list? Also, assuming that, is it also safe to assume that a spellcaster without full progression (say, a Paladin or Artificer) could cast one of their Dragonmark Spells with said fifth-level spell slot as well, yes? Basically, if I'm playing a tenth-level Artificer with Mark of Passage and Potent Dragonmark, could I cast Teleportation Circle, even though, as an artificer, I can only prepare and cast 3rd-level spells?
Reading through the feat, I'd say yes—a non-caster could in theory use this feat to cast spells. My rational:
Unless I'm missing a key detail, this feat seems set up to give anyone—even non-spellcasters—a way to cast some spells
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I see a potential issue when a spell from the Spells of the Mark list requires a spellcasting ability (for a save DC or attack roll), but you don't have a Spellcasting or Pact Magic class feature.
Maybe, because Spells of the Mark says the spells on the table are added only if you have a Spellcasting or Pact Magic feature, the intent could be that they can't be prepared if you don't have either feature (???)
(related thread: Potent Dragonmark and Spell Preparation. (Eberron: Forge of the Artificer))
Yeah, the part about "gated on having a Spellcasting feature" was the one I was questioning, where that choice is not there (but it could be used too, I guess)
Using RWinnie’s question: "if we're level 10, can a non-spellcaster cast a fifth-level spell from their Dragonmark spell list?" For example, Mark of Sentinel Spells and Bigby’s Hand (where you need a spell save DC for Grasping Hand).
I believe if you don't have a spellcasting ability, you treat it as 0
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My interpretation is that it requires at least one level of any spellcasting class but then, yes you can cast fifth level spells as a mostly non spellcasting class
I had inferred that, given that in the prerequisite Mark feat, you choose your spellcasting ability (Int, Wis, Cha) as part of the feat, you'd treat that as the "spellcasting ability modifier" for the purposes of attack rolls/spell save DCs (even in the absence of other spellcasting) when combined with the potent dragonmark.
~ My 2014 Homebrew Subclasses ~
Abandoned (Patronless) - Warlock | Accomplice - Rogue | Archaeologist - Artificer | Prophetic Sorcery - Sorcerer | Wave Roamer - Ranger
~ My 2024 Homebrew Subclasses ~
Abandoned (Patronless) - Warlock | College of the Chord - Bard | Joy Domain - Cleric | Fiendish Sorcery - Sorcerer
Technically, this wouldn't be correct. Only the other spells granted even without a Spellcasting or Pact Magic feature use this spellcasting ability score, it's a specific override and not a character-wide spellcasting ability score.
As a DM, I'd say it's fine, however.
Oh, weird. So normally you prepare the Spells of the Mark using a particular Spellcasting or Pact Magic class feature, but when you take Potent Dragonmark they just become “prepared”. In other cases, when you have a spell you always have prepared from a feat or species, it isn’t ever cast using the rules for a spellcasting class you have because it’s not actually a class spell. Technically you can’t use any spellcasting focii in place of material components with those spells, they don’t benefit from effects like Innate Sorcery, and they don’t gain or lose spell components from class features.
How does that work with Potent Dragonmark? Are they prepared by each of your classes with Spellcasting or Pact Magic? That interpretation is rife with problems and I don’t think Potent Dragonmark’s Dragonmark Preparation implies it works that way. Most logically they become just like other feat-prepared spells and use a spellcasting ability determined by the feat, or because Potent Dragonmark lacks specific guidance on that, you’d need to look at how the source feat (in this case the Dragonmark feat) says its always prepared spells are cast and treat the additional spells the same way.
That doesn’t mean you couldn’t prepare them as class spells in addition to having them always prepared as feat spells, because that’s what the Spells of the Mark benefit lets you do. It wouldn’t be different than preparing detect thoughts as a Wizard spell to cast it with Intelligence even if you had picked Wisdom when you took the Telepathic feat. You just wouldn’t normally want to do that.
This is just my opinion, but these kinds of doubts have been debated in other threads, so I'm adding some (*) for fairness and different POVs.
I use the same answer to determine if there are interactions between game features.
As for which spellcasting ability to use, I'm ruling that the ability depends on the source of that prepared spell: your own class feature, a feat, or a species trait.
(*) Some threads posted since the 5.5e SAC clarification on what counts as a class spell:
Some threads from before the 5.5e SAC, where some people argued "spells learned through feats or species traits don't count as class spells" while others disagreed:
EDIT: for clarity.
The one nitpick that I have regarding your interpretation is this above statement. It doesn't make sense that you would rule the use of a spellcasting focus one way and then the use of the spellcasting ability in the opposite way when the Spellcasting feature of every class writes these two features with very similar wording. For example, for the Sorcerer class, we have:
The most correct interpretation of this text is that if the spell is a Sorcerer spell that is prepared in your mind for casting, then you can use both of these features for the casting of that spell. In both cases it has nothing to do with the preparation of the spell, and it certainly does not have anything to do with the "source" of the spell.
Many folks get confused about this because of how the multiclass rule is worded:
This rule simply states that IF you have more than one Spellcasting feature AND IF you decided to use one of those features to prepare the spell then you MUST use that same feature's spellcasting ability to cast it.
So, for example, if you are a Sorcerer and you have a Feat that provides a method for preparing a spell and it also provides a method for casting that spell including providing information about which spellcasting ability to use and or which spellcasting focus to use when doing so, then IF that spell happens to be a Sorcerer spell and IF you used the Feat's procedure for preparing that spell then you would have multiple options available for casting it:
1. Use the casting method provided by the Feat along with the Spellcasting ability specified by the Feat and the spellcasting focus specified by the Feat.
2. Use the casting method provided by the Feat along with the Spellcasting ability specified by the Feat and the spellcasting focus specified in the Spellcasting feature.
3. Use the casting method provided by the Feat along with the Spellcasting ability specified in the Spellcasting feature and the spellcasting focus specified by the Feat.
4. Use the casting method provided by the Feat along with the Spellcasting ability specified in the Spellcasting feature and the spellcasting focus specified in the Spellcasting feature.
5. Use the casting method provided by the Spellcasting Feature (including using spell slots and so on) along with the Spellcasting ability specified by the Feat and the spellcasting focus specified by the Feat.
6. Use the casting method provided by the Spellcasting Feature (including using spell slots and so on) along with the Spellcasting ability specified by the Feat and the spellcasting focus specified in the Spellcasting feature.
7. Use the casting method provided by the Spellcasting Feature (including using spell slots and so on) along with the Spellcasting ability specified in the Spellcasting feature and the spellcasting focus specified by the Feat.
8. Use the casting method provided by the Spellcasting Feature (including using spell slots and so on) along with the Spellcasting ability specified in the Spellcasting feature and the spellcasting focus specified in the Spellcasting feature.
If eight different ways to cast the spell isn’t enough, consider what happens when you extend that interpretation to have multiple classes with a Spellcasting feature and Spells of the Mark ensuring they’re all a “class spell” and Potent Dragonmark making them Feat prepared spells too. It becomes a jumbled mess. Frankly, I think the Sage Advice Column ruling saying the spell list determines what is and is not a class spell is wrong*, and the source of preparation (or knowledge of cantrips) is the only logical way to determine the manner in which the spell is cast. That way, if you have a level 1+ spell prepared with “Prepared Spells Level 1+” or some other feature of the Sorcerer class it’s a Sorcerer spell when you’re casting it and if you didn’t it’s not. No need to check which spell lists it’s on. The multiclassing rules certainly lend credence to that interpretation as well as the notion that spell slots are something you get from your class levels, but aren’t a feature of any particular class any more than Hit Dice are, and as such you can expend them to cast any spell regardless of how it was prepared (subject to specific restrictions such as with Potent Dragonmark’s spell slot) but following the rules associated with that preparation. I agree that it is restrictive and certainly understand being more lenient with allowing players to use some class features on spells they didn’t get through a class (particularly when it comes to using a Spellcasting Focus), but I don’t really think I’d want the headache of players using Innate Sorcery, Arcane Firearm, Potent Spellcasting, and whatever else they can cobble together on a spell they’re casting with Constitution via Aberrant Dragonmark.
* There are limited contexts in which the Sage Advice interpretation must be used, such as what is considered a “Wizard spell” that can be copied into a Spellbook. But I think it’s pretty obvious when the “<class> spell” form is being used as shorthand for “a spell on the <class> spell list” as opposed to referencing a spell being cast using a class’s features. Your views may vary.
This was covered in my previous post. If you have more than one Spellcasting feature and you use one of those features to prepare a spell, then you must use the spellcasting ability from that feature when you cast it.
It's still the same options. This is an example of a Feat that prepares a class spell and is then somehow cast. That's precisely what I described in my previous post.
It's not wrong. It describes exactly what's written in the rules. Every class with a Spellcasting feature contains some manner of this rule:
Your interpretation was more commonly used under the 2014 rules, but it was also incorrect then. The 2024 rule book has gone out of its way to clarify this as seen above.
Yeah, this is the common misconception. There is nothing in the rules which supports this. The proper definition of a class spell has been clarified by the 2024 rules text and also by Sage Advice.
No, they don't. The multiclassing rules are often misunderstood. It's only saying that you keep track of separate lists of prepared spells that were prepared by each Spellcasting feature and then when you cast that spell you must use the spellcasting ability for that feature. That has nothing to do with whether or not a particular spell is a Sorcerer spell, for example. There are totally different rules that are used to determine that.
This isn't really true either. You only have spell slots if a particular feature says that you have spell slots and that feature will tell you when and how such spell slots may be used. For example, for every class that has a Spellcasting feature, that feature defines how many spell slots you have. In all of those cases, some form of this rule applies: "See “Spells” for the rules on spellcasting. The information below details how you use those rules with Sorcerer spells . . .". So, these spell slots are really meant only for class spells. In the case of a multiclass character that has more than one Spellcasting feature, there is a rule for that also: "You use the slots for that level to cast spells of an appropriate level from any class whose Spellcasting feature you have." Lastly, if you have some other feature, such as a Feat, which provides some method of preparing a spell that is not on your class list, then you cannot use your spell slots to cast that spell unless that feature explicitly states that you can, which would create a Specific vs General exception to how those spell slots can be used.
Whether or not a feature applies to a given situation needs to be evaluated on a case-by-case basis based on the text. For example, Innate Sorcery requires that the spell is a Sorcerer spell, which means that it appears in the Sorcerer spell list. And so on.
Wouldn’t a character with multiple Spellcasting classes have multiple sets of Spellcasting features, Focus options, etc., that are all equally valid à la cart options to use if the spell is one prepared via Potent Dragonmark? They’d be class spells for all the classes. Is that not exponentially more options using your interpretation?
The Spellcasting Feature grants spell slots, but neither the Spellcasting Feature nor the Spells rules applies any restrictions on what spells the granted spell slots can be used for beyond: “Before you can cast a spell, you must have the spell prepared in your mind”. Spell slots are a resource that’s fungible, they behave the same regardless of the class that granted them: they have levels and you get them all back after a Long Rest*. Sure, the Spellcasting Feature details how class spells are used in conjunction with the Spells rules and most non-class sources of prepared spells have clarifying language about using any spell slots, but there simply is no verbiage about a Sorcerer’s spell slots being “for your Sorcerer spells”. That can only mean the spell slots are available to be used for any prepared spell, not just spells you prepare with that class. As far as I’m aware, Potent Dragonmark is the only way to get a spell slot that does have restrictions on which spells it can be used for.
As a counter example to class spells being defined by spell list, let’s consider a context where the Spellcasting Feature applies restrictions on class spells: the Artificer’s Tools Required. That feature requires all Artificer spells to be cast with an Artisan Tools as a Spellcasting Focus. So, if an aasimar multiclasses into Artificer at 3rd level, does he suddenly need to have a shoe last on hand to cast the light cantrip he’s been using perfectly fine for the last two levels? By the Sage Advice, because light is on the Artificer spell list it is an “Artificer spell”. But treating it that way is an absurd interpretation of the rules. Light, when cast by that character, is not an Artificer spell because he didn’t get it from being an Artificer, he got it from being an aasimar. Because he got it that way, he always uses Charisma as his Spellcasting Ability for it and Tools Required doesn’t apply. He doesn’t cast the spell using some janky combination of features from different sources.
*“Pact Magic spell slots” have specific rules about recovery, but the general rule for “spell slots” is consistent and repeated in the Spells section.
Well, the Spellcasting Ability is overridden by some Dragonmark Feats, which tell you which ability to use. A Spellcasting Focus, however, is neither mentioned nor overridden in those feats from Eberron, or in the traits and feats (AFAIK) from the 5.5e PHB.
But it's true that there are feats that mention using a different Spellcasting Focus in other books, for example Divinely Favored (Dragonlance: Shadow of the Dragon Queen) or Cartomancer (The Book of Many Things)
@MoribundEidolon Maybe I'm wrong, so sorry in advance if that's the case, but it seems to me that you're also basing your ruling on this answer from the 5.5e SAC:
If so, I think your vision is more aligned to what @SmiteMakesRight_3_5 or @The_Ace_of_Rogues said in Potent Dragonmark and Spell Preparation. (Eberron: Forge of the Artificer) on pages #2 and #3.