Oh, I’m not against Song_of_Blues. Is it RAW? Yes. Is it RAI? 🤷♂️ Should Blues disallow it if they find it ridiculous? Absolutely.
Of course he can disallow it in his campaign if he finds it ridiculous. I still do not understand all the hand-wringing over a situation never likely to come up at all in the vast majority of campaigns.
Most of the debates on this forum (not the questions, but the actual debates) center on situations that are unlikely to arise in the majority of campaigns, lol
Most plant creatures can move anyway, and I have no problem with Longstrider helping those with 0 speed just as the shark is.
The world is against you, Blue, Longstrider lets sharks flop up a beach (while holding their breath)
I think my track record on these rules debates is very questionable, myself. That doesn' t discourage me from debating, however. My view is that since Sharks are creatures that exist in the real world and not fantasy creatures like Unicorns or Trolls or Dragons, I will stand by basic biology and say that sharks do not have cheek muscles the way we do and many large predatory sharks (like the Great White Shark) cannot even breathe unless they are actively passing water over their gills.
Also "flopping" is not the same thing as walking in the slightest, which is why most fish are so helpless on land. During the salmon spawning season, bears used to be able to go to many rivers along the Pacific Northwest and flip them out of the water as easily as people flip pancakes. Didn't even need to bite them because they would be so helpless once out of water. Giving increased land movement to a species that has exactly Zero instinct, physical structures or learned behavior for moving on land and expecting that fish to walk is like expecting a 3 year old to do a swing from a chandelier. Walking has to be hard wired into the brain and practiced. Babies already have some of that wiring and they still have to practice it over and over again to walk in anything like a straight line. Suddenly imbuing a shark with the theoretical ability to walk does not make up for the lack of grey matter and experience adapted to that purpose.
Of course he can disallow it in his campaign if he finds it ridiculous. I still do not understand all the hand-wringing over a situation never likely to come up at all in the vast majority of campaigns.
Also, please do not go around assuming the gender of people you are writing to. I am not a man.
Thank you all for four pages of an amazing conversation regarding land moving sharks.
What I am disappointed about is not one person brought up Jabberjaw. Right there is your land walking shark. Children of the late 70's will/should/hopefully get the reference.
Seriously though this is a fascinating conversation and especially relevant to my game as I have a player who Wizard uses Longstrider quite often.
So are you insisting that if it was cast on a baby, who clearly does have some level of land mobility, it would not boost their movement? Fair point that they might just be crawling instead of walking and might have trouble even with that, but you seem to be insisting that it would have no effect whatsoever. Magic is compensating for the lack of adequate musculature.
Someone only capable of walking at speed X (and running at speed 2X) due to their musculature, body design, etc can run at speed 2 (X+10) by way of the spell. It clearly compensates for any shortfall of musculature.
What is the use of having more muscles if you don't know how to use them? A person who gets their leg blown off in combat and then replaced with a prosthetic leg still needs to train with it for hours and hours to adequately control it. What you are arguing for is a 1st level spell not only conferring magical musculature, but also instantly teaching a creature how to use those muscles. That's like saying you should be able to cast a 1st level spell and turn my barely exercising self into a professional gymnast if I were in an isekai anime. Sure it makes for a fun fanfic, but it clearly goes beyond what 1st level spells are capable of. Enhance Ability, for example, is a 2nd level spell AND it takes concentration. Fly is a 3rd level spell and also requires concentration. Alter Self, which physically alters a creature to enable swimming and water-breathing is 2nd level AND requires concentration. The gist of your argument for Longstrider is that it should be like Alter Self but that it affects a non-Self creature without needing concentration and at a lower spell level. Am I getting that right?
I worry about those who are so loudly opposed to allowing predatory fish to flop around for 10' movement. What happens at your tables to make this a great big deal? It's not exactly Sharknado-levels of mobility.
It's friggin magic, folks. If Animate Dead can make skeletons walk around without any muscles, Longstrider can make a shark move on land in whatever descriptive manner you'd like. We don't need to go down this rabbit hole when there's absolutely no merit in discussing physiology.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Animate Dead is a 3rd level spell. That's my point, not that it would be impoossible to transmute a normie Shark into Shark on legs, but that it goes beyond what a 1st level spell without concentration is supposed to be able to do.
Interesting that nobody has bothered to address the magic level comparison I did in #82. If somebody wanted to homebrew a variant of Longstrider to enable this that required a 2nd level spell slot and concentration, I would allow it.
Animate Dead is a 3rd level spell. That's my point, not that it would be impoossible to transmute a normie Shark into Shark on legs, but that it goes beyond what a 1st level spell without concentration is supposed to be able to do.
Interesting that nobody has bothered to address the magic level comparison I did in #82. If somebody wanted to homebrew a variant of Longstrider to enable this that required a 2nd level spell slot and concentration, I would allow it.
The Alter Self comparison is actually a really good one. Let’s compare:
Alter Self: 2nd level, allows breathing underwater, gives swim speed fully equal to normal land speed, and the versatility to do other things instead, but requires concentration
Longstrider: 1st level, does not grant a shark the ability to breathe air, only grants 10 ft. of land speed, but no concentration
The spell levels here seem 100% fair. Honestly, when it’s used in such an incredibly suboptimal way, Longstrider is almost cantrip level.
Yeah, I mean, who would really want to spend a 1st-level spell slot just to give a shark a 10-foot flopping speed that will last longer than the shark will once it’s out of the water?!?
(Other than for humorous reasons, or because they need the fish meat?)
Someone who wants to stir up trouble and/or cause a distraction.
I have a bard who can do that with Mage Hand or Dancing Lights.
Plus, just because the shark now has a 10-foot flopping speed...
The shark doesn’t know that, and...
The shark also adds 10 feet to their swimming speed, so is still faster in the water, and...
The shark still knows it cannot breath on land, so...
Why would it come on land anyway?
And if it’s already on land, it would most likely just use its 10-foot flopping speed and the dash action to get its fins back in the water ASAP. So I guess we could add “humanitarian reasons” to casting Lonstrider on the shark to help it get back to the water.
The Alter Self comparison is actually a really good one. Let’s compare:
Alter Self: 2nd level, allows breathing underwater, gives swim speed fully equal to normal land speed, and the versatility to do other things instead, but requires concentration
Longstrider: 1st level, does not grant a shark the ability to breathe air, only grants 10 ft. of land speed, but no concentration
The spell levels here seem 100% fair. Honestly, when it’s used in such an incredibly suboptimal way, Longstrider is almost cantrip level.
It's a good comparison b/c Alter Self ACTUALLY changes the form of the creature involved and can grant temporary adaptation to a new environment. Longstrider as a spell makes no such claims whatsoever.
As another analogy: let's say that a spell gave you a motorcycle and that's all it does. If you already know how to drive a motorcycle, that's great. If you don't know how to ride one b/c you've never used one before, your attempts to ride it will likely cause significant damage to yourself and the motorcycle, right? Longstrider is the motorcycle summoning spell. Having magic muscles or whatever isn't going to help you much if you've never used them before. That's why my analogy to a 1st level spell creating a professional gymnast out of a human who barely exercises applies: the gymnast and the non-exerciser actually even have the same muscles groups, but just to different degrees. Without training and practice, the non-exerciser can't be expected to do gymnast things except maybe jump higher and run faster than before b/c her/his muscles suddenly improved b/c Magic don't grant the muscle memory and coordination necessary to be a competitive gymnast.
The Alter Self comparison is actually a really good one. Let’s compare:
Alter Self: 2nd level, allows breathing underwater, gives swim speed fully equal to normal land speed, and the versatility to do other things instead, but requires concentration
Longstrider: 1st level, does not grant a shark the ability to breathe air, only grants 10 ft. of land speed, but no concentration
The spell levels here seem 100% fair. Honestly, when it’s used in such an incredibly suboptimal way, Longstrider is almost cantrip level.
It's a good comparison b/c Alter Self ACTUALLY changes the form of the creature involved and can grant temporary adaptation to a new environment. Longstrider as a spell makes no such claims whatsoever.
As another analogy: let's say that a spell gave you a motorcycle and that's all it does. If you already know how to drive a motorcycle, that's great. If you don't know how to ride one b/c you've never used one before, your attempts to ride it will likely cause significant damage to yourself and the motorcycle, right? Longstrider is the motorcycle summoning spell. Having magic muscles or whatever isn't going to help you much if you've never used them before. That's why my analogy to a 1st level spell creating a professional gymnast out of a human who barely exercises applies: the gymnast and the non-exerciser actually have the same muscles, but without training and practice, the non-exerciser can't be expected to do gymnast things except maybe jump higher and run faster than before b/c her/his muscles suddenly improved b/c Magic don't grant the muscle memory and coordination necessary to be a competitive gymnast.
So your argument then is that a shark, flopping about at 10 ft. per round while suffocating in air it can’t breathe is equivalent to an untrained layabout becoming a professional gymnast, and that’s why Longstrider is too low level to allow the former?
A normal person who has Longstrider cast on them can move faster than they could before. They need no additional skill training to do so. Period.
Oh and for prosthetics in game, an Armorer Artificer's armor can function as prosthetics and similarly needs no special training. It is a magical prosthetic.
A normal person enchanted w/ Longstrider is still doing the exact same types of movements that they would have done before the spell. No additional practice or training needed since the person already knows how to walk and run and jump (assuming a typical non-physically handicapped person).
Artificer armor is just magical armor. The Artificer is already trained to use armor. Nothing special here and not comparable to giving a shark muscles to walk b/c Sharks are not adapted to walking, either underwater or on land.
I don't think you understand my argument in post #82. Please read it again.
So your argument then is that a shark, flopping about at 10 ft. per round while suffocating in air it can’t breathe is equivalent to an untrained layabout becoming a professional gymnast, and that’s why Longstrider is too low level to allow the former?
My point is the TRAINING involved to use newly acquired magic muscles or whatever you are using to justify the new land movement speed is not granted by a 1st level spell. Homebrewing a mod to the Alter Self, a 2nd level spell, would make a lot more sense if you wanted a Shark to be able to move and fight on land. Then you also solve the air-breathing problem, right?
So your argument then is that a shark, flopping about at 10 ft. per round while suffocating in air it can’t breathe is equivalent to an untrained layabout becoming a professional gymnast, and that’s why Longstrider is too low level to allow the former?
My point is the TRAINING involved to use newly acquired magic muscles or whatever you are using to justify the new land movement speed is not granted by a 1st level spell. Homebrewing a mod to the Alter Self, a 2nd level spell, would make a lot more sense if you wanted a Shark to be able to move and fight on land. Then you also solve the air-breathing problem, right?
Who says it takes training or uses muscles? Angela Lansbury made a flying bed in Bedknobs and Broomsticks. That bed didn’t need muscles or training.
"Yup... strong aura of Transmutation on that bad boy, somebody's gone and enchanted it. Gods help us all..."
"RAWRRRsssblubblubgrrrrgasp"
"Huh... well... it uh... really isn't moving that fast. And I think it's dying? Sooo...?"
"Oof, poor guy. Well, let's throw rocks at it until it dies for experience!"
AND scene. "It's swimming (poorly) on land because someone cast a spell on it" is a perfectly sufficient explanation in D&D, I can't imagine the player angrily standing up and demanding that the DM justify what musculature this aquatic fish is using to leverage its newfound land speed.
Oh, I’m not against Song_of_Blues. Is it RAW? Yes. Is it RAI? 🤷♂️ Should Blues disallow it if they find it ridiculous? Absolutely.
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Most of the debates on this forum (not the questions, but the actual debates) center on situations that are unlikely to arise in the majority of campaigns, lol
I think my track record on these rules debates is very questionable, myself. That doesn' t discourage me from debating, however. My view is that since Sharks are creatures that exist in the real world and not fantasy creatures like Unicorns or Trolls or Dragons, I will stand by basic biology and say that sharks do not have cheek muscles the way we do and many large predatory sharks (like the Great White Shark) cannot even breathe unless they are actively passing water over their gills.
Also "flopping" is not the same thing as walking in the slightest, which is why most fish are so helpless on land. During the salmon spawning season, bears used to be able to go to many rivers along the Pacific Northwest and flip them out of the water as easily as people flip pancakes. Didn't even need to bite them because they would be so helpless once out of water. Giving increased land movement to a species that has exactly Zero instinct, physical structures or learned behavior for moving on land and expecting that fish to walk is like expecting a 3 year old to do a swing from a chandelier. Walking has to be hard wired into the brain and practiced. Babies already have some of that wiring and they still have to practice it over and over again to walk in anything like a straight line. Suddenly imbuing a shark with the theoretical ability to walk does not make up for the lack of grey matter and experience adapted to that purpose.
Also, please do not go around assuming the gender of people you are writing to. I am not a man.
Holy Grail!
Thank you all for four pages of an amazing conversation regarding land moving sharks.
What I am disappointed about is not one person brought up Jabberjaw. Right there is your land walking shark. Children of the late 70's will/should/hopefully get the reference.
Seriously though this is a fascinating conversation and especially relevant to my game as I have a player who Wizard uses Longstrider quite often.
What is the use of having more muscles if you don't know how to use them? A person who gets their leg blown off in combat and then replaced with a prosthetic leg still needs to train with it for hours and hours to adequately control it. What you are arguing for is a 1st level spell not only conferring magical musculature, but also instantly teaching a creature how to use those muscles. That's like saying you should be able to cast a 1st level spell and turn my barely exercising self into a professional gymnast if I were in an isekai anime. Sure it makes for a fun fanfic, but it clearly goes beyond what 1st level spells are capable of. Enhance Ability, for example, is a 2nd level spell AND it takes concentration. Fly is a 3rd level spell and also requires concentration. Alter Self, which physically alters a creature to enable swimming and water-breathing is 2nd level AND requires concentration. The gist of your argument for Longstrider is that it should be like Alter Self but that it affects a non-Self creature without needing concentration and at a lower spell level. Am I getting that right?
I worry about those who are so loudly opposed to allowing predatory fish to flop around for 10' movement. What happens at your tables to make this a great big deal? It's not exactly Sharknado-levels of mobility.
I am one with the Force. The Force is with me.
It's friggin magic, folks. If Animate Dead can make skeletons walk around without any muscles, Longstrider can make a shark move on land in whatever descriptive manner you'd like. We don't need to go down this rabbit hole when there's absolutely no merit in discussing physiology.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Animate Dead is a 3rd level spell. That's my point, not that it would be impoossible to transmute a normie Shark into Shark on legs, but that it goes beyond what a 1st level spell without concentration is supposed to be able to do.
Interesting that nobody has bothered to address the magic level comparison I did in #82. If somebody wanted to homebrew a variant of Longstrider to enable this that required a 2nd level spell slot and concentration, I would allow it.
The Alter Self comparison is actually a really good one. Let’s compare:
Alter Self: 2nd level, allows breathing underwater, gives swim speed fully equal to normal land speed, and the versatility to do other things instead, but requires concentration
Longstrider: 1st level, does not grant a shark the ability to breathe air, only grants 10 ft. of land speed, but no concentration
The spell levels here seem 100% fair. Honestly, when it’s used in such an incredibly suboptimal way, Longstrider is almost cantrip level.
Yeah, I mean, who would really want to spend a 1st-level spell slot just to give a shark a 10-foot flopping speed that will last longer than the shark will once it’s out of the water?!?
(Other than for humorous reasons, or because they need the fish meat?)
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Someone who wants to stir up trouble and/or cause a distraction.
I am one with the Force. The Force is with me.
I have a bard who can do that with Mage Hand or Dancing Lights.
Plus, just because the shark now has a 10-foot flopping speed...
Why would it come on land anyway?
And if it’s already on land, it would most likely just use its 10-foot flopping speed and the dash action to get its fins back in the water ASAP. So I guess we could add “humanitarian reasons” to casting Lonstrider on the shark to help it get back to the water.
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It's a good comparison b/c Alter Self ACTUALLY changes the form of the creature involved and can grant temporary adaptation to a new environment. Longstrider as a spell makes no such claims whatsoever.
As another analogy: let's say that a spell gave you a motorcycle and that's all it does. If you already know how to drive a motorcycle, that's great. If you don't know how to ride one b/c you've never used one before, your attempts to ride it will likely cause significant damage to yourself and the motorcycle, right? Longstrider is the motorcycle summoning spell. Having magic muscles or whatever isn't going to help you much if you've never used them before. That's why my analogy to a 1st level spell creating a professional gymnast out of a human who barely exercises applies: the gymnast and the non-exerciser actually even have the same muscles groups, but just to different degrees. Without training and practice, the non-exerciser can't be expected to do gymnast things except maybe jump higher and run faster than before b/c her/his muscles suddenly improved b/c Magic don't grant the muscle memory and coordination necessary to be a competitive gymnast.
So your argument then is that a shark, flopping about at 10 ft. per round while suffocating in air it can’t breathe is equivalent to an untrained layabout becoming a professional gymnast, and that’s why Longstrider is too low level to allow the former?
A normal person enchanted w/ Longstrider is still doing the exact same types of movements that they would have done before the spell. No additional practice or training needed since the person already knows how to walk and run and jump (assuming a typical non-physically handicapped person).
Artificer armor is just magical armor. The Artificer is already trained to use armor. Nothing special here and not comparable to giving a shark muscles to walk b/c Sharks are not adapted to walking, either underwater or on land.
I don't think you understand my argument in post #82. Please read it again.
My point is the TRAINING involved to use newly acquired magic muscles or whatever you are using to justify the new land movement speed is not granted by a 1st level spell. Homebrewing a mod to the Alter Self, a 2nd level spell, would make a lot more sense if you wanted a Shark to be able to move and fight on land. Then you also solve the air-breathing problem, right?
Who says it takes training or uses muscles? Angela Lansbury made a flying bed in Bedknobs and Broomsticks. That bed didn’t need muscles or training.
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"Whoa look, that shark is swimming on land!"
"How is it doing that!? Quick, Detect Magic!"
"Yup... strong aura of Transmutation on that bad boy, somebody's gone and enchanted it. Gods help us all..."
"RAWRRRsssblubblubgrrrrgasp"
"Huh... well... it uh... really isn't moving that fast. And I think it's dying? Sooo...?"
"Oof, poor guy. Well, let's throw rocks at it until it dies for experience!"
AND scene. "It's swimming (poorly) on land because someone cast a spell on it" is a perfectly sufficient explanation in D&D, I can't imagine the player angrily standing up and demanding that the DM justify what musculature this aquatic fish is using to leverage its newfound land speed.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
This is my new favorite post of all time ever. I actually literally laughed out loud at that one.
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