So, I was idly looking at how my concept of a DEX focused duelist style fight could use the Weapon Masteries and I found a minor issue: DEX Fighters have a very narrow range of melee mastery options. There's Nick, which obviously doesn't work with a duelist style, Vex, and Slow on whips. It's not wholly unworkable, but it generally creates the sense that you can either just TWF with Nick and Vex or duel with Vex and possibly use Slow as a backup. I feel like one more option would really help DEX melee Fighters have flexibility of choice, and so I think they need to add a Versatile Finesse weapon to the options. Maybe keep the d6 OH, d8 TH progression to keep it in the same range as other Finesse weapons. I'm not super invested in a particular mastery once it's up, but just adding Push, Sap, or Topple to the mix will allow for a more personalization of play without really altering the balance of damage. Granted, nothing is immediately springing to mind for what kind of weapon this would be, but that's essentially just cosmetics.
So, thoughts on if this would be a good addition or not?
I think the idea with dex fighters is that they are supposed to be able to transition from melee to range seamlessly. So essentially it is supposed to be rapier and shield, or TWF, or range weapon as their masteries. I would not be surprised if the intent isn't to have multiple ranged weapons as masteries with things like push on them instead of on the melee weapons.
Range has several Vex weapons though and crossbows still require a feat to be viable for Fighters; plus keep in mind that STR Fighters can freely dip into all the Finesse weapons.
Maybe that’s a back door balance attempt. Dex builds are typically really strong, so limiting dex masteries is a way to throw the str melee types a bone.
And while there are certainly real world example of people gracefully wielding a two handed weapon. I think, again for game balance reasons, it’s better to leave finesse without all the options.
I think this is best left as a strength of the Monk, via Dedicated Weapon or Kensei. Regular finesse weapons topping out at d8 (rapiers) seems intentional.
I think this is best left as a strength of the Monk, via Dedicated Weapon or Kensei. Regular finesse weapons topping out at d8 (rapiers) seems intentional.
I specifically suggested keeping these at d8's for two hands. My point is just that there's functionally two options for DEX melee Fighters, and one is limited to TWF while STR gets the entire melee pool.
Range has several Vex weapons though and crossbows still require a feat to be viable for Fighters; plus keep in mind that STR Fighters can freely dip into all the Finesse weapons.
But some still have push and slow as an option as well. So combining the fact that the playstyle is different with options including vex, slow, nick, push and you have the option for a ranged topple with a fighter (longbow and heavy crossbow are both heavy so they qualify for topple). So the only masteries a Fighter using dex can't use are Graze, Cleave and Sap. The first 2 being a great weapon fighting style masteries and the other being a full defensive playstyle mastery, neither of which are really going to be a dex fighter's thing. So ultimately the dex fighter gets a lot of masteries to work with, 3 different fighting style capabilities with sword and board, two weapon fighting and ranged attacks all without reducing the effectiveness of any of those strategies while the strength fighter can still do all of these his effectiveness with ranged attacks will be reduced but he will have the great weapon fighting option available to him. It is a trade off.
I have often thought that I'd like spear to be a finesse weapon, given the way that spears can be used (it's often more about where you jab rather than how hard, or about causing your enemy to impale themselves by raising it in defence).
Maybe that’s a back door balance attempt. Dex builds are typically really strong, so limiting dex masteries is a way to throw the str melee types a bone.
And while there are certainly real world example of people gracefully wielding a two handed weapon. I think, again for game balance reasons, it’s better to leave finesse without all the options.
I think you are on the money here. Most of the changes to martials in OneD&D favour STR-melee builds over Dex or ranged probably because of the popular opinion that Dex is better than Str as a general rule.
I think the masteries are working as intended to add more "feel" to the weapons. I don't want the light, quick fighters to be pushing and toppling because that's not what they're supposed to be doing. They strike quickly and precisely with a flurry of attacks. You want to manhandle people, go STR. That's what STR should feel like, and I think its important that DEX doesn't infringe on that.
I think the masteries are working as intended to add more "feel" to the weapons. I don't want the light, quick fighters to be pushing and toppling because that's not what they're supposed to be doing. They strike quickly and precisely with a flurry of attacks. You want to manhandle people, go STR. That's what STR should feel like, and I think its important that DEX doesn't infringe on that.
And tripping someone with a staff isn’t a classic “light and quick fighter” move? The distinction is arbitrary, and an STR user can still be “quick and precise with a flurry of attacks” using the same weapons as DEX, so it’s literally a one-way restriction.
We absolutely do not need dex creeping on str anymore than it already does.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Dex already has an AC bonus and an init bonus, not to mention damage equality with sword and shield. Dex does not need to power creep str anymore than it already does. if you want more weapon masteries, STR is there for you. I LIKE the fact that it offers something that dex does not right now.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Dex already has an AC bonus and an init bonus, not to mention damage equality with sword and shield. Dex does not need to power creep str anymore than it already does. if you want more weapon masteries, STR is there for you. I LIKE the fact that it offers something that dex does not right now.
AC bonus is less than what Heavy Armor can swing, so that's a limited point for a feature that's primarily for Fighters; Initiative is nice but hardly critical unless you're playing one of two or three races/subclasses with a "strike first" feature. The damage equality would actually not be altered for sword and board, since my proposal is d6 versatile d8, meaning you're losing a point to the rapier or STR options. STR will still offer multiple options DEX can't get in melee, but at the moment the DEX melee pool is one main feature and two secondary features, all of which STR also gets. A slightly larger initial pool of Finesse options and generally larger communal pool for Fighters just makes it easier for people to play their ideal image of a Fighter rather than being locked out of several classics (there's no support for dexterous spear/staff user atm unless you go Monk, which is a whole other vibe).
by a whole 1. Heavy armor is completely overrated. I will generally run medium regardless, because I don't like gimping my dex, unless I am using 2h weapons, and even then I strongly dislike dumping my dex. Dex saving throws are better, init's better, and you lose out on a whole 1 AC in exchange. Sorry, but I don't agree with you and I highly doubt there's an argument to be made to make dex look even more appealing that would sway me. You'd have to convince me that STR is a lot better than I think it is, and I dont think there's an argument out there which can do that.
EDIT: If you really NEED that dex spear, you can MC monk.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
I mean, a Fighter doesn't really have a pressing need for DEX if they're not doing Archery; they don't have DEX save prof, so their performance in that area is still only so-so unless you dip or spend a feat for the prof even if it is allegedly a "better" save to invest in (personally my play experience says that what saves you see during a campaign aren't nearly predictable enough to make DEX an objectively better choice; WIS actually seems to be the one that crops up the most), and while it's fun to roll 30+ on Initiative once or twice (War Mage w/ Alert from DM's homebrew Background feat rules), there's not enough value in it to make STR the objectively worse pick you make it out to be. Plus, again, my proposal means the player can't match the base DPR and AC of a rapier, so how is it bad for the game balance for a sub-optimal pick to exist?
I'll grant that there's probably no argument that will sway you, because you seem to have it very fixed in your head that DEX is some kind of optimum combat stat (it's not).
And why should I be required to multiclass just to fill a basic fighting archetype?
FYI, I thought I remembered this and did a little digging, there's actually an SA response that giving a spear finesse doesn't break anything, so why are you so opposed to a single extra sub-optimal finesse option?
I think we could stand the Quarterstaff being a versatile, finesse weapon. But I think the spear and trident should do more damage too so there’s that.
They're fixing the trident in the update, which also makes the spear fair since simple weapons tend to be more "tools that can also double as weapons".
I mean, a Fighter doesn't really have a pressing need for DEX if they're not doing Archery; they don't have DEX save prof, so their performance in that area is still only so-so unless you dip or spend a feat for the prof even if it is allegedly a "better" save to invest in (personally my play experience says that what saves you see during a campaign aren't nearly predictable enough to make DEX an objectively better choice; WIS actually seems to be the one that crops up the most), and while it's fun to roll 30+ on Initiative once or twice (War Mage w/ Alert from DM's homebrew Background feat rules), there's not enough value in it to make STR the objectively worse pick you make it out to be. Plus, again, my proposal means the player can't match the base DPR and AC of a rapier, so how is it bad for the game balance for a sub-optimal pick to exist?
I'll grant that there's probably no argument that will sway you, because you seem to have it very fixed in your head that DEX is some kind of optimum combat stat (it's not).
And why should I be required to multiclass just to fill a basic fighting archetype?
FYI, I thought I remembered this and did a little digging, there's actually an SA response that giving a spear finesse doesn't break anything, so why are you so opposed to a single extra sub-optimal finesse option?
spear is a different situation because a finesse spear, in 2014, isnt adding anything.
rogue;
they already have access to 1h d8 via rapier
they already have access to d8 ranged with two hands via light crossbow, and 1h d6 via hand crossbows
fighter also does, if they are using dex.
Ranger also does
monk has scaling dice.
now, maybe casters shouldn't get D8 weapons via dex, but 2014 was much more open with weapon proficiencies, races would grant it.
your question is basically should dex weapon users gain access to versatile weapon masteries, and a weaker versatile weapon. The mastery is the thing people are unsure about.
they seem to have gone out of their way to limit finnesse weapons mastery access, especially for simple weapons. Heavy xbow gains more access, but its gated behind martial weapon proficiency.
I could see them adding something in a future book, but it would thus be a lot more limited in availability, when the last time a game had a guy with a doublebladed scimitar
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So, I was idly looking at how my concept of a DEX focused duelist style fight could use the Weapon Masteries and I found a minor issue: DEX Fighters have a very narrow range of melee mastery options. There's Nick, which obviously doesn't work with a duelist style, Vex, and Slow on whips. It's not wholly unworkable, but it generally creates the sense that you can either just TWF with Nick and Vex or duel with Vex and possibly use Slow as a backup. I feel like one more option would really help DEX melee Fighters have flexibility of choice, and so I think they need to add a Versatile Finesse weapon to the options. Maybe keep the d6 OH, d8 TH progression to keep it in the same range as other Finesse weapons. I'm not super invested in a particular mastery once it's up, but just adding Push, Sap, or Topple to the mix will allow for a more personalization of play without really altering the balance of damage. Granted, nothing is immediately springing to mind for what kind of weapon this would be, but that's essentially just cosmetics.
So, thoughts on if this would be a good addition or not?
I think the idea with dex fighters is that they are supposed to be able to transition from melee to range seamlessly. So essentially it is supposed to be rapier and shield, or TWF, or range weapon as their masteries. I would not be surprised if the intent isn't to have multiple ranged weapons as masteries with things like push on them instead of on the melee weapons.
Range has several Vex weapons though and crossbows still require a feat to be viable for Fighters; plus keep in mind that STR Fighters can freely dip into all the Finesse weapons.
Maybe that’s a back door balance attempt. Dex builds are typically really strong, so limiting dex masteries is a way to throw the str melee types a bone.
And while there are certainly real world example of people gracefully wielding a two handed weapon. I think, again for game balance reasons, it’s better to leave finesse without all the options.
I think this is best left as a strength of the Monk, via Dedicated Weapon or Kensei. Regular finesse weapons topping out at d8 (rapiers) seems intentional.
I specifically suggested keeping these at d8's for two hands. My point is just that there's functionally two options for DEX melee Fighters, and one is limited to TWF while STR gets the entire melee pool.
But some still have push and slow as an option as well. So combining the fact that the playstyle is different with options including vex, slow, nick, push and you have the option for a ranged topple with a fighter (longbow and heavy crossbow are both heavy so they qualify for topple). So the only masteries a Fighter using dex can't use are Graze, Cleave and Sap. The first 2 being a great weapon fighting style masteries and the other being a full defensive playstyle mastery, neither of which are really going to be a dex fighter's thing. So ultimately the dex fighter gets a lot of masteries to work with, 3 different fighting style capabilities with sword and board, two weapon fighting and ranged attacks all without reducing the effectiveness of any of those strategies while the strength fighter can still do all of these his effectiveness with ranged attacks will be reduced but he will have the great weapon fighting option available to him. It is a trade off.
I have often thought that I'd like spear to be a finesse weapon, given the way that spears can be used (it's often more about where you jab rather than how hard, or about causing your enemy to impale themselves by raising it in defence).
That would give Sap under the current system.
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I think you are on the money here. Most of the changes to martials in OneD&D favour STR-melee builds over Dex or ranged probably because of the popular opinion that Dex is better than Str as a general rule.
I think the masteries are working as intended to add more "feel" to the weapons. I don't want the light, quick fighters to be pushing and toppling because that's not what they're supposed to be doing. They strike quickly and precisely with a flurry of attacks. You want to manhandle people, go STR. That's what STR should feel like, and I think its important that DEX doesn't infringe on that.
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And tripping someone with a staff isn’t a classic “light and quick fighter” move? The distinction is arbitrary, and an STR user can still be “quick and precise with a flurry of attacks” using the same weapons as DEX, so it’s literally a one-way restriction.
We absolutely do not need dex creeping on str anymore than it already does.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
This would literally just give DEX a single extra Mastery for anyone but a Fighter, and STR can already use every Mastery DEX can.
Dex already has an AC bonus and an init bonus, not to mention damage equality with sword and shield. Dex does not need to power creep str anymore than it already does. if you want more weapon masteries, STR is there for you. I LIKE the fact that it offers something that dex does not right now.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
AC bonus is less than what Heavy Armor can swing, so that's a limited point for a feature that's primarily for Fighters; Initiative is nice but hardly critical unless you're playing one of two or three races/subclasses with a "strike first" feature. The damage equality would actually not be altered for sword and board, since my proposal is d6 versatile d8, meaning you're losing a point to the rapier or STR options. STR will still offer multiple options DEX can't get in melee, but at the moment the DEX melee pool is one main feature and two secondary features, all of which STR also gets. A slightly larger initial pool of Finesse options and generally larger communal pool for Fighters just makes it easier for people to play their ideal image of a Fighter rather than being locked out of several classics (there's no support for dexterous spear/staff user atm unless you go Monk, which is a whole other vibe).
by a whole 1. Heavy armor is completely overrated. I will generally run medium regardless, because I don't like gimping my dex, unless I am using 2h weapons, and even then I strongly dislike dumping my dex. Dex saving throws are better, init's better, and you lose out on a whole 1 AC in exchange. Sorry, but I don't agree with you and I highly doubt there's an argument to be made to make dex look even more appealing that would sway me. You'd have to convince me that STR is a lot better than I think it is, and I dont think there's an argument out there which can do that.
EDIT: If you really NEED that dex spear, you can MC monk.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
I mean, a Fighter doesn't really have a pressing need for DEX if they're not doing Archery; they don't have DEX save prof, so their performance in that area is still only so-so unless you dip or spend a feat for the prof even if it is allegedly a "better" save to invest in (personally my play experience says that what saves you see during a campaign aren't nearly predictable enough to make DEX an objectively better choice; WIS actually seems to be the one that crops up the most), and while it's fun to roll 30+ on Initiative once or twice (War Mage w/ Alert from DM's homebrew Background feat rules), there's not enough value in it to make STR the objectively worse pick you make it out to be. Plus, again, my proposal means the player can't match the base DPR and AC of a rapier, so how is it bad for the game balance for a sub-optimal pick to exist?
I'll grant that there's probably no argument that will sway you, because you seem to have it very fixed in your head that DEX is some kind of optimum combat stat (it's not).
And why should I be required to multiclass just to fill a basic fighting archetype?
FYI, I thought I remembered this and did a little digging, there's actually an SA response that giving a spear finesse doesn't break anything, so why are you so opposed to a single extra sub-optimal finesse option?
I think we could stand the Quarterstaff being a versatile, finesse weapon. But I think the spear and trident should do more damage too so there’s that.
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They're fixing the trident in the update, which also makes the spear fair since simple weapons tend to be more "tools that can also double as weapons".
spear is a different situation because a finesse spear, in 2014, isnt adding anything.
rogue;
they already have access to 1h d8 via rapier
they already have access to d8 ranged with two hands via light crossbow, and 1h d6 via hand crossbows
fighter also does, if they are using dex.
Ranger also does
monk has scaling dice.
now, maybe casters shouldn't get D8 weapons via dex, but 2014 was much more open with weapon proficiencies, races would grant it.
your question is basically should dex weapon users gain access to versatile weapon masteries, and a weaker versatile weapon. The mastery is the thing people are unsure about.
they seem to have gone out of their way to limit finnesse weapons mastery access, especially for simple weapons. Heavy xbow gains more access, but its gated behind martial weapon proficiency.
I could see them adding something in a future book, but it would thus be a lot more limited in availability, when the last time a game had a guy with a doublebladed scimitar