I've seen conflicting opinions about when the dread ambusher ability can be used within the Attack action but nothing official. I'm playing a lvl 14 gloom stalker and my question is about timing within the parameters of that first Attack action (on the first round of combat). Does my Attack action begin when I declare that I'm taking the Attack action? Or do I have to actually attack something before I can be considered taking the Attack action? If the latter is true, then it seems to me that categorizing the Attack action is merely an afterthought, which doesn't make sense to me.
To state my question simply, does my Attack action begin when I declare it or does my Attack action begin AFTER I make my first "to hit" roll?
My goal here is to determine whether I can use the dread ambusher additional attack as my opener during my first Attack action then follow it up with the rest of my attacks. (Which, in my opinion, would be consistent with the spirit of the ability. It is an "ambush", after all.)
For me, I play my character as one who will grab every advantage in combat, whether it's honorable or not. So, whenever possible, I will take my first attack from a hidden position (whether that's accomplished through pre-emptively hiding or taking full advantage of darkness via umbral sight) which grants me advantage on my first attack roll, after which my cover is blown. That's the key here. I'd rather get advantage on the bigger dread ambusher attack than on a regular attack.
although my DM always makes it my first action, the way I would read it is that it occurs after your attack action has concluded, the wording infers that you need of of already taken the attack action
If you take the Attack action, you can make one additional weapon attack that deals an extra 1d8 damage of the weapon’s damage type on hit.
So, here's my reading on it trying to be as pedantic as possible... the ability states specifically "If you take the attack action," and not "after you take the attack action". This says to me that the only condition for triggering this extra attack is that you also take the attack action that same turn. It's not a bonus action attack, which would require resolving the full attack action before triggering the additional attack... it's simply another weapon attack option added to your attack action.
My goal here is to determine whether I can use the dread ambusher additional attack as my opener during my first Attack action then follow it up with the rest of my attacks. (Which, in my opinion, would be consistent with the spirit of the ability. It is an "ambush", after all.)
The rules lawyer in me requires me to point out the feature is slightly ambiguous and you could argue any of these are valid:
Dread Ambusher doesn't specify which attack is "that attack", so it's implied to be the one you'd make after your usual number of attacks.
Dread Ambusher doesn't specify which attack is "that attack", but you have to make one attack to be considered to be taking the Attack action. So if you have Extra Attack, the Dread Ambusher attack could be attack 2 out of 3, but never attack #1.
Dread Ambusher doesn't specify which attack is "that attack", so once you decide to attack there's nothing stopping you from claiming your additional Dread Ambusher attack up front.
Now rules lawyering aside, as a DM I'd never consider any ruling but the last. There's no good narrative or mechanical reason to restrict the feature's use, and I'd go as far as saying it goes against the spirit of the feature. It'd just be raining on the player's parade for no good reason.
"If you take the Attack action on that turn, you can make one additional weapon attack as part of that action."
SAC:
"The Shield Master feat lets you shove someone as a bonus action if you take the Attack action. Can you take that bonus action before the Attack action?
No. The bonus action provided by the Shield Master feat has a precondition: that you take the Attack action on your turn. Intending to take that action isn’t sufficient; you must actually take it before you can take the bonus action. During your turn, you do get to decide when to take the bonus action after you’ve taken the Attack action.
This sort of if-then setup appears in many of the game’s rules. The “if” must be satisfied before the “then” comes into play"
So, if you follow the rulings from the sage advice compendium then the if must be satisfied before the then comes into play. On top of that, the dread ambusher feature states that you can take "one additional attack" which provides special benefits. In common English usage ... additional usually means after. An additional attack could be read as an attack that happens after another attack.
In the end, it is up to the DM how they want to run it but between the phrasing describing it as an additional attack and the if-then wording from SAC, I would tend to say that the additional attack has to come after at least one other attack.
For me, I play my character as one who will grab every advantage in combat, whether it's honorable or not. So, whenever possible, I will take my first attack from a hidden position (whether that's accomplished through pre-emptively hiding or taking full advantage of darkness via umbral sight) which grants me advantage on my first attack roll, after which my cover is blown. That's the key here. I'd rather get advantage on the bigger dread ambusher attack than on a regular attack.
Keep in mind that Umbral Sight grants the ranger invisibility in darkness if the opponent is using darkvision to see them. This is NOT lost after making an attack. You remain invisible, you can't be seen, though your position is known after making the attack. As a result, you continue to have advantage on your attacks as long as you can see your opponent and they can not see you.
On the other hand, if you were using the hide action and can otherwise be seen you would only have advantage on your first attack.
When you take the attack action, everything starting from choosing a target is part of that action. Dread ambusher gives the attack action of your first turn an additional attack. It doesn't specify timing, so that attack can be any point during the action, even the beginning.
And pro tip, multiclass into fighter for action surge (deeper dips also work, ranger peaks early). Dread ambusher applies to ALL attack actions taken on your first turn, even extra ones.
"If you take the Attack action on that turn, you can make one additional weapon attack as part of that action."
SAC:
"The Shield Master feat lets you shove someone as a bonus action if you take the Attack action. Can you take that bonus action before the Attack action?
No. The bonus action provided by the Shield Master feat has a precondition: that you take the Attack action on your turn. Intending to take that action isn’t sufficient; you must actually take it before you can take the bonus action. During your turn, you do get to decide when to take the bonus action after you’ve taken the Attack action.
This sort of if-then setup appears in many of the game’s rules. The “if” must be satisfied before the “then” comes into play"
So, if you follow the rulings from the sage advice compendium then the if must be satisfied before the then comes into play. On top of that, the dread ambusher feature states that you can take "one additional attack" which provides special benefits. In common English usage ... additional usually means after. An additional attack could be read as an attack that happens after another attack.
In the end, it is up to the DM how they want to run it but between the phrasing describing it as an additional attack and the if-then wording from SAC, I would tend to say that the additional attack has to come after at least one other attack.
You bolded the wrong part of dread ambusher, should have bolded "as part of that action." This looks like an if-then statement, but it should be a when-while. WotC has never been careful about wording in 5e to the dismay of every rules lawyer in the game. In order to argue that the first attack can not be the ambush attack, you have to argue that the first attack is not "part of [the] action," as the feature applies to.
Also, "additional" does not imply order, only amount. If I said I had an additional McNugget in my order, does that imply they put it in last?
Also, "additional" does not imply order, only amount. If I said I had an additional McNugget in my order, does that imply they put it in last?
Well, presuming that each McNugget was inserted individually and sequentially, the “additional” McNugget would have to be the last one inserted by default. Since there would not have been the prerequisite “standard” number of McNuggets to fill that order size until the last one necessary was placed, there could not have been any “addition” McNuggets until after that. (However, if they were placed in groupings of two or more, it would be possible that the “additional” McNugget might have been placed simultaneously to one or more other McNuggets.)
But since that is an example in which all specimens are functionally identical, and in this case one of the Attacks is unique from the others, perhaps McNuggets are a substandard analog in this instance. Might I suggest a trip to one of the competitors establishments and we might use the errant onion ring amidst the French fries on might find at the King’s? In that instance, the onion ring might very well have entered the carton of fries at any point, which I think illustrates your point more accurately.
McNuggets aside (mmm nuuuggets), after hearing the excellent points in the discussion, I think it really does boil down to five little words.
"If you take the Attack action on that turn, you can make one additional weapon attack as part of that action."
"As part of that action" means ANY part, not just a specific part. It doesn't say "as the final part of that action", it doesn't say "as a conclusion of that action", and it doesn't say "as a follow-up to an attack within that action". So, in my opinion, it makes rules sense and spirit sense to be able to make the dread ambusher attack as your first action within your entire Attack action, if you wish.
Incidentally, with regard to "additional weapon attack", I take "additional" to mean "included with" and not "as a result of". I think the devs are using the term "additional" purely to clarify that it is not "in place of" anything within the whole of the Attack action.
Also, "additional" does not imply order, only amount. If I said I had an additional McNugget in my order, does that imply they put it in last?
Well, presuming that each McNugget was inserted individually and sequentially, the “additional” McNugget would have to be the last one inserted by default. Since there would not have been the prerequisite “standard” number of McNuggets to fill that order size until the last one necessary was placed, there could not have been any “addition” McNuggets until after that. (However, if they were placed in groupings of two or more, it would be possible that the “additional” McNugget might have been placed simultaneously to one or more other McNuggets.)
But since that is an example in which all specimens are functionally identical, and in this case one of the Attacks is unique from the others, perhaps McNuggets are a substandard analog in this instance. Might I suggest a trip to one of the competitors establishments and we might use the errant onion ring amidst the French fries on might find at the King’s? In that instance, the onion ring might very well have entered the carton of fries at any point, which I think illustrates your point more accurately.
It's because you put yourself from the "preparing the order perspective", but if you put yourself from the ordering perspective, you will say "I will take the 6 nuggets box with the promotional 3 additional nuggets" and just expect your box to have 9 nuggets when you open it, irrespective of the order in which they were placed there... :D
No, I put myself in the perspective of the order itself.
Also, "additional" does not imply order, only amount. If I said I had an additional McNugget in my order, does that imply they put it in last?
Well, presuming that each McNugget was inserted individually and sequentially, the “additional” McNugget would have to be the last one inserted by default. Since there would not have been the prerequisite “standard” number of McNuggets to fill that order size until the last one necessary was placed, there could not have been any “addition” McNuggets until after that. (However, if they were placed in groupings of two or more, it would be possible that the “additional” McNugget might have been placed simultaneously to one or more other McNuggets.)
I've never worked in fast food, but I know that is not how it works.
But since that is an example in which all specimens are functionally identical, and in this case one of the Attacks is unique from the others, perhaps McNuggets are a substandard analog in this instance. Might I suggest a trip to one of the competitors establishments and we might use the errant onion ring amidst the French fries on might find at the King’s? In that instance, the onion ring might very well have entered the carton of fries at any point, which I think illustrates your point more accurately.
But, I think you agree with my point, so I'll take it.
Also, "additional" does not imply order, only amount. If I said I had an additional McNugget in my order, does that imply they put it in last?
Well, presuming that each McNugget was inserted individually and sequentially, the “additional” McNugget would have to be the last one inserted by default. Since there would not have been the prerequisite “standard” number of McNuggets to fill that order size until the last one necessary was placed, there could not have been any “addition” McNuggets until after that. (However, if they were placed in groupings of two or more, it would be possible that the “additional” McNugget might have been placed simultaneously to one or more other McNuggets.)
I've never worked in fast food, but I know that is not how it works.
What does working in the fast food industry have to do with anything?!?
If it’s a nail factory, and someone putting nails in a box, and the box is supposed to have 100 nails in it, then logically there cannot be an “additional” nail until the 101st nail is put in. The first 100 nails are not “additional.”
If it’s a straw factory, and and the package of straws is supposed to have 50 straws, the first 50 straws cannot be “additional,” only the 51st straw can ever be considered the “additional” straw.
From the perspective of the nail box, or the straw package, there cannot be an “additional” amount until the appropriate amount has been reached. When all of the contents are identical, the “additional” one has to be the last one put into the container.
Even for the sake of experiment, if you were to take 51 straws and write “additional” on one of them, then that particular straw would no longer be functionally identical to the rest for the sake of the experiment,
I'm curious why it matters whether the extra attack is first or if it's last.
Because the attack from Dread Ambusher deals an additional 1d8 damage. If the PC is hidden, and they attack, the first attack has advantage because they are hidden, but after that the PC is no longer hidden so the rest of their attacks that turn would not have advantage.
If it’s a nail factory, and someone putting nails in a box, and the box is supposed to have 100 nails in it, then logically there cannot be an “additional” nail until the 101st nail is put in. The first 100 nails are not “additional.”
Eh, I don't know. I'm picturing a machine that dumps 100 nails into boxes on a conveyor belt. Just before that spot, a lone nail is added to the box because they are doing a promotion or something. It's additional because there's a fixed amount that is already being added, plus this extra one. If the 100 is scheduled to be there, they don't need to actually be in the box for the first one to be additional.
Honestly, it isn't worth arguing about how many chicken nuggets, nails, or angels might be considered normal or additional or whether any additional would be the first, last or in the middle. :)
The interpretation is entirely up to the DM involved. They can decide that additional means "in addition to" the regular attack and that it should follow a regular attack or they can equally well decide that additional in their game means that the character has an option for an additional attack with special properties that they can take at any time during their attack action.
Either interpretation is likely fine depending on how the DM wants to read the meaning of additional.
P.S. As a DM I'd allow the gloomstalker to make the additional attack as their first one if they wanted to do so. It isn't really that big a deal. However, in games where I have played with others running gloomstalkers, the players and DMs generally seemed to assume that the additional attack was taken last - so it didn't come up in discussions.
Of course the DM has the last word, you can say that about anything. We argue about stuff like this so that DM's can digest the argument and make informed rulings based on that information.
I've seen conflicting opinions about when the dread ambusher ability can be used within the Attack action but nothing official. I'm playing a lvl 14 gloom stalker and my question is about timing within the parameters of that first Attack action (on the first round of combat). Does my Attack action begin when I declare that I'm taking the Attack action? Or do I have to actually attack something before I can be considered taking the Attack action? If the latter is true, then it seems to me that categorizing the Attack action is merely an afterthought, which doesn't make sense to me.
To state my question simply, does my Attack action begin when I declare it or does my Attack action begin AFTER I make my first "to hit" roll?
My goal here is to determine whether I can use the dread ambusher additional attack as my opener during my first Attack action then follow it up with the rest of my attacks. (Which, in my opinion, would be consistent with the spirit of the ability. It is an "ambush", after all.)
For me, I play my character as one who will grab every advantage in combat, whether it's honorable or not. So, whenever possible, I will take my first attack from a hidden position (whether that's accomplished through pre-emptively hiding or taking full advantage of darkness via umbral sight) which grants me advantage on my first attack roll, after which my cover is blown. That's the key here. I'd rather get advantage on the bigger dread ambusher attack than on a regular attack.
although my DM always makes it my first action, the way I would read it is that it occurs after your attack action has concluded, the wording infers that you need of of already taken the attack action
If you take the Attack action, you can make one additional weapon attack that deals an extra 1d8 damage of the weapon’s damage type on hit.
So, here's my reading on it trying to be as pedantic as possible... the ability states specifically "If you take the attack action," and not "after you take the attack action". This says to me that the only condition for triggering this extra attack is that you also take the attack action that same turn. It's not a bonus action attack, which would require resolving the full attack action before triggering the additional attack... it's simply another weapon attack option added to your attack action.
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For the most part Jeremy Crawford answers this nicely: "D&D combat doesn't have an action-declaration phase. Things happen in order, and you can be interrupted at any moment by a reaction, trap, or the like. You can say, "I plan to take the Attack action," but that has no rules relevance until you're actually taking the action." You're officially taking the Attack action when you start making an attack.
The rules lawyer in me requires me to point out the feature is slightly ambiguous and you could argue any of these are valid:
Now rules lawyering aside, as a DM I'd never consider any ruling but the last. There's no good narrative or mechanical reason to restrict the feature's use, and I'd go as far as saying it goes against the spirit of the feature. It'd just be raining on the player's parade for no good reason.
If you want the Sage Advice Compendium answer ...
Dread Ambusher:
"If you take the Attack action on that turn, you can make one additional weapon attack as part of that action."
SAC:
"The Shield Master feat lets you shove someone as a bonus action if you take the Attack action. Can you take that bonus action before the Attack action?
No. The bonus action provided by the Shield Master feat has a precondition: that you take the Attack action on your turn. Intending to take that action isn’t sufficient; you must actually take it before you can take the bonus action. During your turn, you do get to decide when to take the bonus action after you’ve taken the Attack action.
This sort of if-then setup appears in many of the game’s rules. The “if” must be satisfied before the “then” comes into play"
So, if you follow the rulings from the sage advice compendium then the if must be satisfied before the then comes into play. On top of that, the dread ambusher feature states that you can take "one additional attack" which provides special benefits. In common English usage ... additional usually means after. An additional attack could be read as an attack that happens after another attack.
In the end, it is up to the DM how they want to run it but between the phrasing describing it as an additional attack and the if-then wording from SAC, I would tend to say that the additional attack has to come after at least one other attack.
Keep in mind that Umbral Sight grants the ranger invisibility in darkness if the opponent is using darkvision to see them. This is NOT lost after making an attack. You remain invisible, you can't be seen, though your position is known after making the attack. As a result, you continue to have advantage on your attacks as long as you can see your opponent and they can not see you.
On the other hand, if you were using the hide action and can otherwise be seen you would only have advantage on your first attack.
When you take the attack action, everything starting from choosing a target is part of that action. Dread ambusher gives the attack action of your first turn an additional attack. It doesn't specify timing, so that attack can be any point during the action, even the beginning.
And pro tip, multiclass into fighter for action surge (deeper dips also work, ranger peaks early). Dread ambusher applies to ALL attack actions taken on your first turn, even extra ones.
You bolded the wrong part of dread ambusher, should have bolded "as part of that action." This looks like an if-then statement, but it should be a when-while. WotC has never been careful about wording in 5e to the dismay of every rules lawyer in the game. In order to argue that the first attack can not be the ambush attack, you have to argue that the first attack is not "part of [the] action," as the feature applies to.
Also, "additional" does not imply order, only amount. If I said I had an additional McNugget in my order, does that imply they put it in last?
Well, presuming that each McNugget was inserted individually and sequentially, the “additional” McNugget would have to be the last one inserted by default. Since there would not have been the prerequisite “standard” number of McNuggets to fill that order size until the last one necessary was placed, there could not have been any “addition” McNuggets until after that. (However, if they were placed in groupings of two or more, it would be possible that the “additional” McNugget might have been placed simultaneously to one or more other McNuggets.)
But since that is an example in which all specimens are functionally identical, and in this case one of the Attacks is unique from the others, perhaps McNuggets are a substandard analog in this instance. Might I suggest a trip to one of the competitors establishments and we might use the errant onion ring amidst the French fries on might find at the King’s? In that instance, the onion ring might very well have entered the carton of fries at any point, which I think illustrates your point more accurately.
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McNuggets aside (mmm nuuuggets), after hearing the excellent points in the discussion, I think it really does boil down to five little words.
"If you take the Attack action on that turn, you can make one additional weapon attack as part of that action."
"As part of that action" means ANY part, not just a specific part. It doesn't say "as the final part of that action", it doesn't say "as a conclusion of that action", and it doesn't say "as a follow-up to an attack within that action". So, in my opinion, it makes rules sense and spirit sense to be able to make the dread ambusher attack as your first action within your entire Attack action, if you wish.
Incidentally, with regard to "additional weapon attack", I take "additional" to mean "included with" and not "as a result of". I think the devs are using the term "additional" purely to clarify that it is not "in place of" anything within the whole of the Attack action.
Thank you all for your insight and contribution.
No, I put myself in the perspective of the order itself.
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I've never worked in fast food, but I know that is not how it works.
But, I think you agree with my point, so I'll take it.
What does working in the fast food industry have to do with anything?!?
If it’s a nail factory, and someone putting nails in a box, and the box is supposed to have 100 nails in it, then logically there cannot be an “additional” nail until the 101st nail is put in. The first 100 nails are not “additional.”
If it’s a straw factory, and and the package of straws is supposed to have 50 straws, the first 50 straws cannot be “additional,” only the 51st straw can ever be considered the “additional” straw.
From the perspective of the nail box, or the straw package, there cannot be an “additional” amount until the appropriate amount has been reached. When all of the contents are identical, the “additional” one has to be the last one put into the container.
Even for the sake of experiment, if you were to take 51 straws and write “additional” on one of them, then that particular straw would no longer be functionally identical to the rest for the sake of the experiment,
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I'm curious why it matters whether the extra attack is first or if it's last.
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Because the attack from Dread Ambusher deals an additional 1d8 damage. If the PC is hidden, and they attack, the first attack has advantage because they are hidden, but after that the PC is no longer hidden so the rest of their attacks that turn would not have advantage.
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Eh, I don't know. I'm picturing a machine that dumps 100 nails into boxes on a conveyor belt. Just before that spot, a lone nail is added to the box because they are doing a promotion or something. It's additional because there's a fixed amount that is already being added, plus this extra one. If the 100 is scheduled to be there, they don't need to actually be in the box for the first one to be additional.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
Honestly, it isn't worth arguing about how many chicken nuggets, nails, or angels might be considered normal or additional or whether any additional would be the first, last or in the middle. :)
The interpretation is entirely up to the DM involved. They can decide that additional means "in addition to" the regular attack and that it should follow a regular attack or they can equally well decide that additional in their game means that the character has an option for an additional attack with special properties that they can take at any time during their attack action.
Either interpretation is likely fine depending on how the DM wants to read the meaning of additional.
P.S. As a DM I'd allow the gloomstalker to make the additional attack as their first one if they wanted to do so. It isn't really that big a deal. However, in games where I have played with others running gloomstalkers, the players and DMs generally seemed to assume that the additional attack was taken last - so it didn't come up in discussions.
Given that it is called dread ambusher, and the skill also increases your speed and initiative, I think it should be the first attack made.
But as said above, its whatever your DM tells you it is
Of course the DM has the last word, you can say that about anything. We argue about stuff like this so that DM's can digest the argument and make informed rulings based on that information.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm