Also, @Xalthu, it makes sense that the trident would NOT do as much damage to higher AC creatures. It's a weapon made for spearing run-of-the-mill fish, not for killing beholders or xorns.
Considering it’s a martial weapon, I’d imagine is a re-enforced version designed for combat, much like a war hammer is different from the hammer you use to build a house, and a battle axe is different from what you use to chop down a tree.
True, but when comparing a trident to a spear for example, because the force of impact is spread over three times the surface area (three points as opposed to one) it will inevitably not pierce as deeply. Like the difference between stepping on a nail vs. laying on a bed of nails. It’s just physics.
Then again, you are also more likely to hit a vital organ.
True. The way I think of it, it is easier to land a mortal wound with a spear. It goes through armour better, and has more penetrating power. But, if you can get through armour with a trident, you will almost always kill someone. (But I haven't actually used any of these weapons, so this is just a hypothetical.)
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A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
The real purpose of a trident is to increase your chance of hitting a tiny target, like a fish; it doesn't really have any business being used in battle at all (gladiators using it in the arena is because the arena is entertainment). That doesn't mean it shouldn't exist as a weapon in D&D, but it does mean realism is not a helpful reference for what it should do,
Many tridents are also hooked, making them like harpoons, but I'm not sure how to implement weapons that get stuck in their target that isn't overall annoying (yes, it's somewhat useful for preventing things from escaping, but it also means you can't use your weapon...).
The real purpose of a trident is to increase your chance of hitting a tiny target, like a fish; it doesn't really have any business being used in battle at all (gladiators using it in the arena is because the arena is entertainment). That doesn't mean it shouldn't exist as a weapon in D&D, but it does mean realism is not a helpful reference for what it should do,
Many tridents are also hooked, making them like harpoons, but I'm not sure how to implement weapons that get stuck in their target that isn't overall annoying (yes, it's somewhat useful for preventing things from escaping, but it also means you can't use your weapon...).
IMHO, using a trident should be using an improvised weapon that is similar to a spear and follows all the same rules for improvised weapons that are like an actual weapon.
I think that I'm happy with a Trident being a more obscure spear that requires more training to use effectively in battle (martial). Not every choice has to be optimal to be fun (looking at you sling and blowpipe)... though I do like optimising.
> Seems to me that having 3 holes poked into you by a trident vs 1 hole with a spear would cause more damage, so a trident should be a die roll higher in damage.
Let me try to counter that: 3 holes is certainly "ouch" if all three prongs strike, however the bulky head is easier to block, and 3 holes may become none of one prong is stopped on a shield, armour or parrying weapon. There's also a limit to the depth of those holes which wouldn't affect a spear.
So why select an ornate weapon that's no more effective than a spear. When I say "no more effective", consider how many successful armies equipped with tridents; how many with spears?
The argument for the ornate weapon is a simple matter of style. You project your badassery in the same way a guy with a ruby hilted sword (compared to a guy with a plain iron sword).
Walk into some strange town carrying a spear and it's "If you're looking to join the town guard, the barracks are third right".
Walk into a strange town with a trident and it's "Hey, that guy could be Aquaman's cousin".
Historically the purpose of a trident is to increase the odds of hitting when you're spear-fishing; while it was used in combat by some gladiators, that was pretty much sport use. However, if D&D is going to bother listing it as a martial weapon, it should be in some way better than a spear.
I want trident and net weapons, with an auto dex check from opponent as my weapons....possible?
Just follow these 3 easy steps:
Be a DM
Homebrew a monster that uses weapons the way you wish they worked
Profit!
If my players want to use a trident, I throw in a special property that gives them advantage on charisma checks when dealing with someone wielding a trident.
When a trident is a martial weapon, you should not consider it your fishing trident. You can easily imagin a spears with two shorter points going on the side. This way you have all advantages of a spear, and two other points that can hit when the middle one miss, and that can be used to manipulate the opponent weapon. You can imagin it being a dagger with a longer guard on top of a staff, it would definitely be a potent weapon. Very similar to some pollaxes actualy.
As for piercing power, one should remember that a weapon will not pierce through a steel plate. Like almost never, unless the target is incapacitated and you have a big leverage, like with an axe or a hammer. And against an unarmored foe, skin and regular clothes are irrelevant against a war weapon. A trident would simply make three holes in you skin, no question asked. Just try in you kitcher with your best knife to pierce through meat and try piercing through a metal platter. If your platter is any kind of steel, you will never pierce through it with any knife of your kitchen. This is physics.
Looks quite like the hunters Boar Pike (which has a cross-piece to prevent the enraged animal running up the spear and goring the hunter).
Also the later Spontoon (Spear with a cross guard designed to prevent over-penetration) carried by some infantry Sergeants as late as the Napoleonic wars.
In the case of the war fork, the turned forward tangs add a little offensive potential, but may be more useful in fencing against an enemy weapon.
If you roll a 1 when making a melee weapon attack against someone wielding a trident or flail, you are disarmed.
Critical fumbles mean that the more competent a non-Rogue attacker is (especially a Fighter), the worse they are. In your example, a level 20 Fighter making 5 attacks from PAM would drop their polearm on 22.62% of turns they spend attacking someone with a trident or flail. By contrast, a level 1 wizard using the same glaive (so not proficient, and we'll just assume Strength 8) would drop their polearm on 5% of their attacking turns. Does that seem right to you?
If you roll a 1 when making a melee weapon attack against someone wielding a trident or flail, you are disarmed.
Critical fumbles mean that the more competent a non-Rogue attacker is (especially a Fighter), the worse they are. In your example, a level 20 Fighter making 5 attacks from PAM would drop their polearm on 22.62% of turns they spend attacking someone with a trident or flail. By contrast, a level 1 wizard using the same glaive (so not proficient, and we'll just assume Strength 8) would drop their polearm on 5% of their attacking turns. Does that seem right to you?
Yeah, my DM back in 3E was a big fan of critical fumbles but I showed him the math on skilled multiple-attack fighters and we agreed to change it to using your move or expending a single attack to recover so I get that the risk is higher for users making more attacks. But:
The cost of picking up a dropped item is very low in the 5e action economy - just takes up your once a turn item interaction
It's a detectable, knowable risk, so the canny fighter can decide "risk of getting disarmed is high, maybe let's throw a shove into the attack routine" if they see their opponent is armed with a Disarmy(TM) weapon. It's not just "SURPRISE! This opponent has a secret ability that causes fumbles! This is also why I think it should be a property of the weapon rather than some kind of class feature/feat/fighting style/etc. But maybe you go the other way and say this should be something you only get with training to help a player put some teeth behind a unique character concept, or a nasty surprise from some enemy.
If my math is right and the shove succeeds, with advantage you get 4 attacks with a 1% chance of dropping your weapon, Wimpy the Wizard is probably less likely to succeed on the shove and if they do it, they make no attacks that turn
You could add things to make it fairer to more proficient attackers, like requiring a save or opposed skill check but the nice thing about this is its relative simplicity.
You could certainly argue that the existence of this rule already slows game play down a little bit because it may cause the order of rolls to matter (can't roll all your attacks at once if you might drop your weapon on one of them and not be able to pick it back up). Players may have to stop and think about how to deal with it every time they encounter someone with one of these weapons. They may have to remember rules for item interaction that are usually handwaved because your character uses their item interaction once per encounter to draw their weapon. They may have to change plans mid-turn. If that's the case, why not lean into the slowdown and make it an opposed check? That will all depend on how players' fun-processors are configured. Some groups may thrive on ruthless time-efficiency in combat so that they can get on with their exploring and social interaction or move on to their next fight to the death. Some groups (or players) may relish 5-minute turns of deep tactical assessment. My groups tend to keep combat fast-paced but enjoy when their hasty off-the-cuff decisions yield consequences the players or characters weren't prepared for.
How about since Trident is a marshal weapon keep the damage the same as spear and just simple add reach. With adding damage the trident steps on longswords toes because the trident has the throw property but if you just add range it makes the trident still on the spear side damage but makes it unique like most martial weapons compared to their simple weapon cousins.
This post has potentially manipulated dice roll results.
I had an idea:
Trident
-2 or -3 to attack (or -1 if this isn't balanced)
Versatile, Thrown (same as spear except plus 10 feet underwater)
3d2 piercing damage with one hand and 3d3 damage with 2 hand with the d3 either being a d6 where 1-2 is 1}{ 3-4 is 2{ and 5-6 is 3 or a d3 is rolled by a d4 with a 4 meaning roll again
The d3 thing is kind of weird but otherwise it works
The following is a test to see if D&D Beyond can handle straight d3's:
6
The "manipulated dice rolls" comes from when I fixed some errors that weren't my roll.
Or less likely if it doesn’t penetrate as far.
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True. The way I think of it, it is easier to land a mortal wound with a spear. It goes through armour better, and has more penetrating power. But, if you can get through armour with a trident, you will almost always kill someone. (But I haven't actually used any of these weapons, so this is just a hypothetical.)
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The real purpose of a trident is to increase your chance of hitting a tiny target, like a fish; it doesn't really have any business being used in battle at all (gladiators using it in the arena is because the arena is entertainment). That doesn't mean it shouldn't exist as a weapon in D&D, but it does mean realism is not a helpful reference for what it should do,
Many tridents are also hooked, making them like harpoons, but I'm not sure how to implement weapons that get stuck in their target that isn't overall annoying (yes, it's somewhat useful for preventing things from escaping, but it also means you can't use your weapon...).
IMHO, using a trident should be using an improvised weapon that is similar to a spear and follows all the same rules for improvised weapons that are like an actual weapon.
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Hardcovers, DDB & You
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I think that I'm happy with a Trident being a more obscure spear that requires more training to use effectively in battle (martial). Not every choice has to be optimal to be fun (looking at you sling and blowpipe)... though I do like optimising.
Wait... tridents aren't counted as polearms?! WHAAAAAT? They're supposed to be about six feet long, same as a spear!
I want trident and net weapons, with an auto dex check from opponent as my weapons....possible?
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> Seems to me that having 3 holes poked into you by a trident vs 1 hole with a spear would cause more damage, so a trident should be a die roll higher in damage.
Let me try to counter that: 3 holes is certainly "ouch" if all three prongs strike, however the bulky head is easier to block, and 3 holes may become none of one prong is stopped on a shield, armour or parrying weapon. There's also a limit to the depth of those holes which wouldn't affect a spear.
So why select an ornate weapon that's no more effective than a spear. When I say "no more effective", consider how many successful armies equipped with tridents; how many with spears?
The argument for the ornate weapon is a simple matter of style. You project your badassery in the same way a guy with a ruby hilted sword (compared to a guy with a plain iron sword).
Walk into some strange town carrying a spear and it's "If you're looking to join the town guard, the barracks are third right".
Walk into a strange town with a trident and it's "Hey, that guy could be Aquaman's cousin".
OK I've found an advantage over a spear.
When you want to roast a chicken or piglet over your camp-fire.
Historically the purpose of a trident is to increase the odds of hitting when you're spear-fishing; while it was used in combat by some gladiators, that was pretty much sport use. However, if D&D is going to bother listing it as a martial weapon, it should be in some way better than a spear.
Just follow these 3 easy steps:
If my players want to use a trident, I throw in a special property that gives them advantage on charisma checks when dealing with someone wielding a trident.
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(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
When a trident is a martial weapon, you should not consider it your fishing trident. You can easily imagin a spears with two shorter points going on the side. This way you have all advantages of a spear, and two other points that can hit when the middle one miss, and that can be used to manipulate the opponent weapon. You can imagin it being a dagger with a longer guard on top of a staff, it would definitely be a potent weapon. Very similar to some pollaxes actualy.
As for piercing power, one should remember that a weapon will not pierce through a steel plate. Like almost never, unless the target is incapacitated and you have a big leverage, like with an axe or a hammer. And against an unarmored foe, skin and regular clothes are irrelevant against a war weapon. A trident would simply make three holes in you skin, no question asked. Just try in you kitcher with your best knife to pierce through meat and try piercing through a metal platter. If your platter is any kind of steel, you will never pierce through it with any knife of your kitchen. This is physics.
And actualy looking for pictures, I've found this war fork, which is a trident I'm speaking of, and is definitely a weapon of war, XVIth century : https://www.jjb-collection.com/en/fourche-de-guerre-xvie-xml-379_381-11258.html
That's a good find Buoh.
Looks quite like the hunters Boar Pike (which has a cross-piece to prevent the enraged animal running up the spear and goring the hunter).
Also the later Spontoon (Spear with a cross guard designed to prevent over-penetration) carried by some infantry Sergeants as late as the Napoleonic wars.
In the case of the war fork, the turned forward tangs add a little offensive potential, but may be more useful in fencing against an enemy weapon.
Fun (maybe) rule for the trident and the flail:
If you roll a 1 when making a melee weapon attack against someone wielding a trident or flail, you are disarmed.
Critical fumbles mean that the more competent a non-Rogue attacker is (especially a Fighter), the worse they are. In your example, a level 20 Fighter making 5 attacks from PAM would drop their polearm on 22.62% of turns they spend attacking someone with a trident or flail. By contrast, a level 1 wizard using the same glaive (so not proficient, and we'll just assume Strength 8) would drop their polearm on 5% of their attacking turns. Does that seem right to you?
Yeah, my DM back in 3E was a big fan of critical fumbles but I showed him the math on skilled multiple-attack fighters and we agreed to change it to using your move or expending a single attack to recover so I get that the risk is higher for users making more attacks. But:
How about since Trident is a marshal weapon keep the damage the same as spear and just simple add reach. With adding damage the trident steps on longswords toes because the trident has the throw property but if you just add range it makes the trident still on the spear side damage but makes it unique like most martial weapons compared to their simple weapon cousins.
I had an idea:
Trident
-2 or -3 to attack (or -1 if this isn't balanced)
Versatile, Thrown (same as spear except plus 10 feet underwater)
3d2 piercing damage with one hand and 3d3 damage with 2 hand with the d3 either being a d6 where 1-2 is 1}{ 3-4 is 2{ and 5-6 is 3 or a d3 is rolled by a d4 with a 4 meaning roll again
The d3 thing is kind of weird but otherwise it works
The following is a test to see if D&D Beyond can handle straight d3's:
6
The "manipulated dice rolls" comes from when I fixed some errors that weren't my roll.
Also my 123rd post
[roll]7d6[/roll]
Every post these dice roll increasing my chances of winning the yahtzee thread (I wish (wait not the twist the wish threa-!))
Drummer Generated Title
After having been invited to include both here, I now combine the "PM me CHEESE 🧀 and tomato into PM me "PIZZA🍕"