We've just started a Ravenloft campaign, and I decided to make a gnome battle smith artificier. My design was to use my steel protector as cover for making ranged spell and crossbow attacks as well as protecting other lightly armored range attackers or spellcasters. As the party came together, though, it turned out our most heavily armored fighter type was a cleric. Good enough, really, but we had a ranger, a druid, a sorcerer, and my battle smith.
I asked if I could retool the battle smith into a front line fighter after our first session. I didn't have a shield for example and hadn't taken the defense infusion. I swapped out my beloved homunculus for my defense infusion, an viola, I have a ac 20 fighter with a +7 to hit and +5 to damage at level three. Plus the steel protector.
Now, the DM "surprise" attacks us with wolf packs and attacks the steel protector first and carps about the 20 ac every time he attacks. In our last fight, he critted on the surprise attack on the steel defender and took her out with one hit.
It's annoying.
Don't get me wrong, it's a good strategy, especially if you're metagaiming. Obviously, I'm annoyed.
Any ideas about how to better use or protect the steel protector under these circumstances, especially his over reliance on "surprise" rounds on a construct that is vigilant and cannot be surprised, but just doesn't get a turn?
If your DM is meta-gaming because of your AC then you really need to talk to them about that because meta-gaming is bad both when DMs and players do it, as it sucks the immersion and fun out of the game.
In general a DM shouldn't be tailoring encounters to try to "defeat" specific players or their abilities, if they throw varied enough encounters at you then it shouldn't matter if your group sometimes faces enemies they're particularly good against. They also shouldn't be running enemies with a level awareness they wouldn't have; wolves for example aren't necessarily going to know you'd be a harder target to hurt unless they've already tried and failed to get through your armour (though even then, that doesn't stop most canines from trying anyway).
While AC 20 is tough for low level enemies that have relatively low attack modifiers, it's less of an obstacle for enemy mages who can target your saving throws instead. Even low level enemy martial types with low attack modifiers can still hit AC 20, they just have a higher roll to beat, but they do have ways to tip the odds in their favour, for example if your DM uses a battlemap they could flank to gain advantage, or try to knock you prone for the same (anyone can swap an attack for a Shove, and some enemies have other ways to knock you prone).
A DM needs to accept that sometimes players will just steam-roll certain enemy types that they're well adapted to fighting, but that's precisely why you shouldn't throw the same types of enemies at your players over and over; you want to have mixed groups, or more unusual threats, mixed in as well, as that's where the challenge comes from; abilities you haven't encountered before, or which your group isn't so good against.
I'd also ask what you mean by their reliance on "surprise" rounds; Surprise as a rule is a contest between your group's Perception and the enemy's Stealth, so you shouldn't usually all be surprised. If the DM is declaring "you're all Surprised" then they're not following the rules as presented, and you and your fellow players should absolutely push back against that as it's not fun to be robbed of turns all the time (especially without a chance to avoid doing so, or to counter it somehow, in the case of spells that can do that). The DM may control the enemies, but they are not supposed to be the player's enemy themselves; it's a common trap in D&D for the DM and player relationship to be treated as adversarial but that's not what it's supposed to be at all.
Lastly, as you say, your Steel Defender cannot be Surprised, but if you are then you can't issue any orders, but in that case the Steel Defender automatically takes the Dodge action (all attacks against it have disadvantage), and it can still move to try and force enemies to trigger its opportunity attack. You can also argue that if it hasn't been given orders it is always taking the Dodge action, in which case it doesn't matter when in the Initiative order the Defender goes, it is always already dodging, so enemies should always have disadvantage against it in the first round of combat unless you had a chance to order it to do something else.
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Thanks for the support. I know that the steel defender has the dodge action, but I thought it was an action and not a reaction.
The DM says, there are five dire wolves rushing the party and the wolves each get an attack before we roll for initiative. When something attacks the steel defender, it automatically dodges unless the battle smith has ordered it to do something else? Is that the way the mechanic works?
I think Haravikk argues that since you didn't give the Iron Defender any order it would always take the dodge action (which would still be an action, not a reaction), even outside of combat in what I would call "round -1". I'm not sure I would go with that argument myself, patially because it sets a weird precedent for repeatedly using actions outside of combat "just in case" and partially because the whole paragraph with the "defender uses the dodge action if given no orders" is procedet wih "In combat the defender..." which sounds to me like it doesn't jut doge around all the time, only in combat when given no command. So I would argue it doesn't just start dodging, but takes the dodge action on its first turn,if you couldn't/didn't give a command on your first turn.
About the whole "surprised" thingy: In 5e there is no surprise round, just a surprised condition. Which the SD is immune against. So it gets its turn in the first round, no matter what. So if your DM just ignores that, you should talk to them. And there generally shouldn't be attacks happening before Initiative happens (most DMS make an exception when somone initiates a fight with an attack, which is fine, but yould be done as an attack in round 1 with everyone surprised, too). All those "surprise round" attacks should happen in rund 1 with the surprised characters being surprised and therefor not able to use any actions in the first turn or any reactions until that turn ends. You should also have had a chance to notice the wolfpack with your passive perception scores (and the defender has "expertise" in that, mind you) against their stealth check.
Lastly: In general it's better when the steel defender is being hit than when a player character is being hit - it's easy to resummon or heal with mending. Imagine those wolfs would just down one of the casters etc.
Now that I talked a bunch about the mechanics, let me just say: You should generally talk to them, since you seem to think they are metagaming, treating you unfair and generally being quite "I want to win"- Style - none of which will lead to a lot of fun in the long run. They should never cheat just to hurt their players. Ask them why they do it that way (if you're really sure they cheat).
I think Haravikk argues that since you didn't give the Iron Defender any order it would always take the dodge action (which would still be an action, not a reaction), even outside of combat in what I would call "round -1". I'm not sure I would go with that argument myself, patially because it sets a weird precedent for repeatedly using actions outside of combat "just in case" and partially because the whole paragraph with the "defender uses the dodge action if given no orders" is procedet wih "In combat the defender..." which sounds to me like it doesn't jut doge around all the time, only in combat when given no command. So I would argue it doesn't just start dodging, but takes the dodge action on its first turn,if you couldn't/didn't give a command on your first turn.
I was saying it can be argued; some DMs will allow it, others won't and it that may depend on the argument; for example, if you and your Steel Defender are keeping watch in a dangerous area then it's reasonable for the vigilant defender to be "combat ready". Otherwise the defender can definitely Dodge on its turn if you're surprised though, because it won't receive any orders, but that still leaves it vulnerable if its initiative roll isn't good.
But it really all comes down to what you're working with; if a DM is going to keep throwing surprise on me without reasonable chances to avoid it then I'll absolutely argue for every advantage I can get. I'd argue that "In combat" only applies to the initative order; while it's not unreasonable to take that as context for the rest of the paragraph, in practice initiative and turns aren't combat exclusive, contrary to what the rules suggest, you can use them to resolve anything timing sensitive.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
So I would argue it doesn't just start dodging, but takes the dodge action on its first turn,if you couldn't/didn't give a command on your first turn.
This is the way I thought it worked, so when the DM says dire wolf number five runs up and attacks the steel protector, I don't think I can say, it takes the dodge action.
We're both pretty old school. I started ADnD and can't get it out of my head that rogues are the only ones that can search for and disarm traps, so it's easy to glitch in the middle of a game to the wrong set of rules. He came up on 3.5, which is the other set that I'm most proficient with, thankfully having missed 3.0. I like 5e. I think it works pretty well.
I think Haravikk argues that since you didn't give the Iron Defender any order it would always take the dodge action (which would still be an action, not a reaction), even outside of combat in what I would call "round -1". I'm not sure I would go with that argument myself, patially because it sets a weird precedent for repeatedly using actions outside of combat "just in case" and partially because the whole paragraph with the "defender uses the dodge action if given no orders" is procedet wih "In combat the defender..." which sounds to me like it doesn't jut doge around all the time, only in combat when given no command. So I would argue it doesn't just start dodging, but takes the dodge action on its first turn,if you couldn't/didn't give a command on your first turn.
About the whole "surprised" thingy: In 5e there is no surprise round, just a surprised condition. Which the SD is immune against. So it gets its turn in the first round, no matter what. So if your DM just ignores that, you should talk to them. And there generally shouldn't be attacks happening before Initiative happens (most DMS make an exception when somone initiates a fight with an attack, which is fine, but yould be done as an attack in round 1 with everyone surprised, too). All those "surprise round" attacks should happen in rund 1 with the surprised characters being surprised and therefor not able to use any actions in the first turn or any reactions until that turn ends. You should also have had a chance to notice the wolfpack with your passive perception scores (and the defender has "expertise" in that, mind you) against their stealth check.
Lastly: In general it's better when the steel defender is being hit than when a player character is being hit - it's easy to resummon or heal with mending. Imagine those wolfs would just down one of the casters etc.
Now that I talked a bunch about the mechanics, let me just say: You should generally talk to them, since you seem to think they are metagaming, treating you unfair and generally being quite "I want to win"- Style - none of which will lead to a lot of fun in the long run. They should never cheat just to hurt their players. Ask them why they do it that way (if you're really sure they cheat).
About the whole "surprised" thingy: In 5e there is no surprise round, just a surprised condition. Which the SD is immune against. So it gets its turn in the first round, no matter what. So if your DM just ignores that, you should talk to them.
I think in our next session, I'll ask for perception and passive perception checks and gently challenge him on the "surprise" attacks. I'm not a rules lawyer type. I don't think you or Haravikk are either, so I'll push back and if he's just determined to have at the steel defender, then I'll figure out ways of using it differently. It could be a scout. It could shadow our sorcerer. There are other options.
Lastly: In general it's better when the steel defender is being hit than when a player character is being hit - it's easy to resummon or heal with mending. Imagine those wolfs would just down one of the casters etc.
My original concept of the character was to use the steel defender as cover to fire spells and crossbow bolts, so using it as a damage sponge is its proper role. I also see it as a great extension of my character and a terrific role playing opportunity.
I really appreciate the comments and advice Haravikk and Sutlo. I definitely have a better understanding of the situation and know how to approach our next session.
Thanks for the support. I know that the steel defender has the dodge action, but I thought it was an action and not a reaction.
The DM says, there are five dire wolves rushing the party and the wolves each get an attack before we roll for initiative. When something attacks the steel defender, it automatically dodges unless the battle smith has ordered it to do something else? Is that the way the mechanic works?
Huzzah! Jack
The problem is the DM deciding that the wolves get attacks before initiative is rolled. It's fine if they want to run their game that way but it isn't how 5e works. By allowing the attacks before initiative, the DM is trying to make an end run around the capabilities of the party members and give the monsters an edge. It would also negate the Alert feat if someone chose to invest in it.
If the DM allows the party to make a bunch of attacks before initiative when they have an edge on the monsters then at least it amounts to the same rules being applied to both the PCs and NPCs. However, players are usually much more capable of coming up with schemes to surprise monsters than vice versa so the DM is probably less likely to apply the reverse though I could be wrong. Anyway, the way it is supposed to work is outlined in the PHB:
Thank you for all of your information. You certainly understand the artificer battle smith. Yes, that is how I got an AC of 20. The DM approved all of my choices, including the half-plate, so there's that. Maybe I didn't say it, After our first session, I asked if I could tweak the character to make it the meat shield since the party didn't have one, so I switched to the half-plate, shield, and defense infusion.
The DM put two of the other dire wolves on other characters and three on my steel protector and I negating the disadvantage the wolves would have attacking me with their pack tactics. When the crit took out the steel defender in the "surprise" round, the fight was really tough, but eventually we prevailed. Then there was a brief dispute about how easy or difficult it would be to revive the steel protector. Luckily, the rules prevailed then.
During out last session, I kept referring to the steel defender as being vigilant and put her on a weaker character to protect her. We may have reached some kind of understanding when the DM's ego was mollified by getting a second crit roll after I reminded him that attacks against my character were at disadvantage with the steel defender. He basically rolled two crits back-to-back. It happens. We had a laugh about the dice gods really wanting it to happen.
The steel protector proved decisive in the battle by requiring disadvantaged attacks against several characters and making a key attack herself when the gnome went down.
All-in-all we cleared the tension from the previous game session.
I really do appreciate all of the answers and suggestions. The DM seems to have begrudgingly accepted the 20 AC and steel defender.
Huzzah! Jack
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Howdy y'all!
We've just started a Ravenloft campaign, and I decided to make a gnome battle smith artificier. My design was to use my steel protector as cover for making ranged spell and crossbow attacks as well as protecting other lightly armored range attackers or spellcasters. As the party came together, though, it turned out our most heavily armored fighter type was a cleric. Good enough, really, but we had a ranger, a druid, a sorcerer, and my battle smith.
I asked if I could retool the battle smith into a front line fighter after our first session. I didn't have a shield for example and hadn't taken the defense infusion. I swapped out my beloved homunculus for my defense infusion, an viola, I have a ac 20 fighter with a +7 to hit and +5 to damage at level three. Plus the steel protector.
Now, the DM "surprise" attacks us with wolf packs and attacks the steel protector first and carps about the 20 ac every time he attacks. In our last fight, he critted on the surprise attack on the steel defender and took her out with one hit.
It's annoying.
Don't get me wrong, it's a good strategy, especially if you're metagaiming. Obviously, I'm annoyed.
Any ideas about how to better use or protect the steel protector under these circumstances, especially his over reliance on "surprise" rounds on a construct that is vigilant and cannot be surprised, but just doesn't get a turn?
Huzzah!
Jack
If your DM is meta-gaming because of your AC then you really need to talk to them about that because meta-gaming is bad both when DMs and players do it, as it sucks the immersion and fun out of the game.
In general a DM shouldn't be tailoring encounters to try to "defeat" specific players or their abilities, if they throw varied enough encounters at you then it shouldn't matter if your group sometimes faces enemies they're particularly good against. They also shouldn't be running enemies with a level awareness they wouldn't have; wolves for example aren't necessarily going to know you'd be a harder target to hurt unless they've already tried and failed to get through your armour (though even then, that doesn't stop most canines from trying anyway).
While AC 20 is tough for low level enemies that have relatively low attack modifiers, it's less of an obstacle for enemy mages who can target your saving throws instead. Even low level enemy martial types with low attack modifiers can still hit AC 20, they just have a higher roll to beat, but they do have ways to tip the odds in their favour, for example if your DM uses a battlemap they could flank to gain advantage, or try to knock you prone for the same (anyone can swap an attack for a Shove, and some enemies have other ways to knock you prone).
A DM needs to accept that sometimes players will just steam-roll certain enemy types that they're well adapted to fighting, but that's precisely why you shouldn't throw the same types of enemies at your players over and over; you want to have mixed groups, or more unusual threats, mixed in as well, as that's where the challenge comes from; abilities you haven't encountered before, or which your group isn't so good against.
I'd also ask what you mean by their reliance on "surprise" rounds; Surprise as a rule is a contest between your group's Perception and the enemy's Stealth, so you shouldn't usually all be surprised. If the DM is declaring "you're all Surprised" then they're not following the rules as presented, and you and your fellow players should absolutely push back against that as it's not fun to be robbed of turns all the time (especially without a chance to avoid doing so, or to counter it somehow, in the case of spells that can do that). The DM may control the enemies, but they are not supposed to be the player's enemy themselves; it's a common trap in D&D for the DM and player relationship to be treated as adversarial but that's not what it's supposed to be at all.
Lastly, as you say, your Steel Defender cannot be Surprised, but if you are then you can't issue any orders, but in that case the Steel Defender automatically takes the Dodge action (all attacks against it have disadvantage), and it can still move to try and force enemies to trigger its opportunity attack. You can also argue that if it hasn't been given orders it is always taking the Dodge action, in which case it doesn't matter when in the Initiative order the Defender goes, it is always already dodging, so enemies should always have disadvantage against it in the first round of combat unless you had a chance to order it to do something else.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
Howdy Haravikk!
Thanks for the support. I know that the steel defender has the dodge action, but I thought it was an action and not a reaction.
The DM says, there are five dire wolves rushing the party and the wolves each get an attack before we roll for initiative. When something attacks the steel defender, it automatically dodges unless the battle smith has ordered it to do something else? Is that the way the mechanic works?
Huzzah!
Jack
I think Haravikk argues that since you didn't give the Iron Defender any order it would always take the dodge action (which would still be an action, not a reaction), even outside of combat in what I would call "round -1". I'm not sure I would go with that argument myself, patially because it sets a weird precedent for repeatedly using actions outside of combat "just in case" and partially because the whole paragraph with the "defender uses the dodge action if given no orders" is procedet wih "In combat the defender..." which sounds to me like it doesn't jut doge around all the time, only in combat when given no command. So I would argue it doesn't just start dodging, but takes the dodge action on its first turn,if you couldn't/didn't give a command on your first turn.
About the whole "surprised" thingy: In 5e there is no surprise round, just a surprised condition. Which the SD is immune against. So it gets its turn in the first round, no matter what. So if your DM just ignores that, you should talk to them. And there generally shouldn't be attacks happening before Initiative happens (most DMS make an exception when somone initiates a fight with an attack, which is fine, but yould be done as an attack in round 1 with everyone surprised, too). All those "surprise round" attacks should happen in rund 1 with the surprised characters being surprised and therefor not able to use any actions in the first turn or any reactions until that turn ends. You should also have had a chance to notice the wolfpack with your passive perception scores (and the defender has "expertise" in that, mind you) against their stealth check.
Lastly: In general it's better when the steel defender is being hit than when a player character is being hit - it's easy to resummon or heal with mending. Imagine those wolfs would just down one of the casters etc.
Now that I talked a bunch about the mechanics, let me just say: You should generally talk to them, since you seem to think they are metagaming, treating you unfair and generally being quite "I want to win"- Style - none of which will lead to a lot of fun in the long run. They should never cheat just to hurt their players. Ask them why they do it that way (if you're really sure they cheat).
I was saying it can be argued; some DMs will allow it, others won't and it that may depend on the argument; for example, if you and your Steel Defender are keeping watch in a dangerous area then it's reasonable for the vigilant defender to be "combat ready". Otherwise the defender can definitely Dodge on its turn if you're surprised though, because it won't receive any orders, but that still leaves it vulnerable if its initiative roll isn't good.
But it really all comes down to what you're working with; if a DM is going to keep throwing surprise on me without reasonable chances to avoid it then I'll absolutely argue for every advantage I can get. I'd argue that "In combat" only applies to the initative order; while it's not unreasonable to take that as context for the rest of the paragraph, in practice initiative and turns aren't combat exclusive, contrary to what the rules suggest, you can use them to resolve anything timing sensitive.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
This is the way I thought it worked, so when the DM says dire wolf number five runs up and attacks the steel protector, I don't think I can say, it takes the dodge action.
We're both pretty old school. I started ADnD and can't get it out of my head that rogues are the only ones that can search for and disarm traps, so it's easy to glitch in the middle of a game to the wrong set of rules. He came up on 3.5, which is the other set that I'm most proficient with, thankfully having missed 3.0. I like 5e. I think it works pretty well.
I think in our next session, I'll ask for perception and passive perception checks and gently challenge him on the "surprise" attacks. I'm not a rules lawyer type. I don't think you or Haravikk are either, so I'll push back and if he's just determined to have at the steel defender, then I'll figure out ways of using it differently. It could be a scout. It could shadow our sorcerer. There are other options.
My original concept of the character was to use the steel defender as cover to fire spells and crossbow bolts, so using it as a damage sponge is its proper role. I also see it as a great extension of my character and a terrific role playing opportunity.
Howdy y'all!
I really appreciate the comments and advice Haravikk and Sutlo. I definitely have a better understanding of the situation and know how to approach our next session.
Huzzah!
Jack
The problem is the DM deciding that the wolves get attacks before initiative is rolled. It's fine if they want to run their game that way but it isn't how 5e works. By allowing the attacks before initiative, the DM is trying to make an end run around the capabilities of the party members and give the monsters an edge. It would also negate the Alert feat if someone chose to invest in it.
If the DM allows the party to make a bunch of attacks before initiative when they have an edge on the monsters then at least it amounts to the same rules being applied to both the PCs and NPCs. However, players are usually much more capable of coming up with schemes to surprise monsters than vice versa so the DM is probably less likely to apply the reverse though I could be wrong. Anyway, the way it is supposed to work is outlined in the PHB:
Howdy David!
Thank you for all of your information. You certainly understand the artificer battle smith. Yes, that is how I got an AC of 20. The DM approved all of my choices, including the half-plate, so there's that. Maybe I didn't say it, After our first session, I asked if I could tweak the character to make it the meat shield since the party didn't have one, so I switched to the half-plate, shield, and defense infusion.
The DM put two of the other dire wolves on other characters and three on my steel protector and I negating the disadvantage the wolves would have attacking me with their pack tactics. When the crit took out the steel defender in the "surprise" round, the fight was really tough, but eventually we prevailed. Then there was a brief dispute about how easy or difficult it would be to revive the steel protector. Luckily, the rules prevailed then.
During out last session, I kept referring to the steel defender as being vigilant and put her on a weaker character to protect her. We may have reached some kind of understanding when the DM's ego was mollified by getting a second crit roll after I reminded him that attacks against my character were at disadvantage with the steel defender. He basically rolled two crits back-to-back. It happens. We had a laugh about the dice gods really wanting it to happen.
The steel protector proved decisive in the battle by requiring disadvantaged attacks against several characters and making a key attack herself when the gnome went down.
All-in-all we cleared the tension from the previous game session.
I really do appreciate all of the answers and suggestions. The DM seems to have begrudgingly accepted the 20 AC and steel defender.
Huzzah!
Jack