If I had to choose between those two I would pick Path of the Zealot. I am not really into divine based classes but the damage from Divine Fury is really good. They also can be raised from the dead for free. And that is all at level 3. After that they can reroll a failed save once per rage. Then they can give their entire party advantage on everything for an entire round. Finally they cannot die while raging, which honestly seems like something the berserker should have gotten.
Really the only thing going for berserker is immunity to fear and charm while raging. These are the biggest weakness of barbarians and being straight immune is amazing. However Frenzy is really punishing and you can practically get the same effect all the time by dual wielding or taking the Polearm Master feat. Intimidating Presence is really just a waste of an action and likely other party members are better at battlefield control. And finally Retaliation let's you attack with your reaction but that can be done easily with Polearm Master.
So you could go Path of the Zealot and take the Polearm Master feat and get the best of both worlds.
I'm gonna also say Zealot. If you're looking for pure damage Berserker edges out Zealot early on... even with something like Polearm Master or the Dual Wielder feat you won't deal as much damage as a Berserker who can make a bonus action attack with a heavy, two-handed weapon each round... for one combat of the day. After that you're going to end up with the headache of managing exhaustion on top of everything else. So if you decide to push yourself and frenzy multiple times in one day, you're going to be performing worse and will need an extra day of rest to be back in fighting shape. It's really only useful if you've got the kind of DM who focuses on one big fight each day instead of multiple battles throughout a single adventuring day.
Zealot, meanwhile, is all up sides. Free damage tacked onto your attacks with no additional action needed on your part, and you still have a bonus action you can use for other features. It also frees you up to go completely reckless at all times, because as long as you've got someone in your party with revivify they can bring you back when you royally screw up without any GP cost... and eventually you'll be able to just keep fighting even after dropping to 0 hp.
Zealot by a wide margin. You can do huge margin and (unlike Berserker) you can apply your subclass abilities without suffering exhaustion, which is hugely punishing.
Ask your DM; Berserker is only "bad" if you never get enough time to rest, otherwise it's a perfectly good sub-class for your classic two-handed weapon Barbarian as a third full attack without requiring a feat (or which you can still stack feats on top of) is great.
Exhaustion can be punishing, but it's not as bad as people make out if yours is a campaign with a proper amount of downtime/travel time; the first point (disadvantage on ability checks) isn't a big deal for a barbarian unless you grapple a lot (which a Berserker probably won't), while reduced speed is less of a concern as you get increased speed anyway. It's only really once you hit that third point (disadvantage on attacks) that it's really a problem, and even then it's only a problem after the Frenzied Rage ends, and you can use Reckless Attack to counteract it if you absolutely need to.
In practice you'll either use Frenzied Rage once a day when you're fighting an end boss, and it's great for that; or you'll use it several times on a particular intense adventuring day if you know you'll have some downtime/travel time to recover. This is one of the things people forget in D&D; it takes a long time to get places before you have access to Teleport (which many campaigns never get). This makes Frenzied Rage a strategic decision, which lazy min-maxers hate (they want point-and-click sub-classes that get everything for free).
A lot of people try to say that Berserkers are bad because any two-handed weapon Barbarian can take Great Weapon Master (which gives a bonus action attack some of the time) or Polearm Master (which gives a weaker bonus action attack all of the time) but this kind of misses the point; as the Berserker can take either of these as well, and it gives them more flexibility in when they use Frenzied Rage. For example, if you're faced with a weak horde of enemies, with GWM you should have a good chance of triggering your bonus action attack most rounds, so you can save your Frenzied Rage for when you're fighting more elite enemies that won't go down as easily.
There's also the way it fits into a party; if you're likely to have anyone able to cast Greater Restoration then exhaustion is less of a drawback, and having more full attacks combines nicely with anything that can be cast on you that boosts multiple attacks such as Bless, Crusader's Mantle and so-on. Having access to the full extra attack is also just good if you expect to get a magic weapon (more attacks is always better with any kind of attack bonus).
Zealot is simpler mechanically but weird thematically; it can work as a (lower case) berserker but you'll be retheming and justifying features, and really if a berserker is what you want to play as then the Berserker sub-class is what you should use. Just talk to your DM first to make sure the exhaustion element isn't going to become an issue (find out if they'll use realistic travel times, if they were planning to use party exhaustion a lot or such).
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
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Zealot. With the extra Divine Fury damage, Polearm master feat, and reckless attack you will easily surpass the damage benefits from Zerk without the exhaustion headache.
Plus you rez for free and eventually have a big team boost that can turn the tide of a battle.
Zealot. With the extra Divine Fury damage, Polearm master feat, and reckless attack you will easily surpass the damage benefits from Zerk without the exhaustion headache.
Uhm… this is a bit misleading; the Berserker can also use Reckless Attack and can take Polearm Master for the extra reaction attack and weaker bonus attack when they're not in a Frenzied Rage, so this is of no unique advantage to the Zealot.
More likely though the Berserker would want to take Great Weapon Master, giving them another bonus action attack option for criticals and against weaker hordes (so you can save Frenzy for later). Because when they do pop Frenzied Rage they can now make three reckless attacks with -5 to hit (countered by the advantage) and +10 damage for a massive boost. Or if you can squeeze in an extra feat just take both, since GWM isn't limited to a greataxe, greatsword etc.
Also again, people massively exaggerate exhaustion as a disadvantage; you need at least three points before it's a serious detriment, and in a campaign with decent downtime/travel time it's not that hard to manage. It's a strategic decision for the player, and all it really does it make Berserker a session zero sub-class; ask the DM if the exhaustion is going to be a problem in their campaign or not, but even in cases where you're rationing frenzy to once a day it's still a lot of fun to play for when you do trigger it, and you can always push further when you need to, it just comes at a cost.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
Zealot. With the extra Divine Fury damage, Polearm master feat, and reckless attack you will easily surpass the damage benefits from Zerk without the exhaustion headache.
Uhm… this is a bit misleading; the Berserker can also use Reckless Attack and can take Polearm Master for the extra reaction attack and weaker bonus attack when they're not in a Frenzied Rage, so this is of no unique advantage to the Zealot.
More likely though the Berserker would want to take Great Weapon Master, giving them another bonus action attack option for criticals and against weaker hordes (so you can save Frenzy for later). Because when they do pop Frenzied Rage they can now make three reckless attacks with -5 to hit (countered by the advantage) and +10 damage for a massive boost. Or if you can squeeze in an extra feat just take both, since GWM isn't limited to a greataxe, greatsword etc.
Also again, people massively exaggerate exhaustion as a disadvantage; you need at least three points before it's a serious detriment, and in a campaign with decent downtime/travel time it's not that hard to manage. It's a strategic decision for the player, and all it really does it make Berserker a session zero sub-class; ask the DM if the exhaustion is going to be a problem in their campaign or not, but even in cases where you're rationing frenzy to once a day it's still a lot of fun to play for when you do trigger it, and you can always push further when you need to, it just comes at a cost.
Two is bad due to the speed loss which you rely on to even get close enough to do any damage. Three is pretty near making you useless as DIS on attacks drops your DPR significantly more and makes having GWM pretty bad since you can't get ADV on attacks the rest of the day.
If you only have 1-2 battles a day then sure it's fine. Any more than that PAM and the other subclasses (minus battle rager) are generally better IMO
For me, the biggest problem with exhaustion is that a long rest only recovers one level of exhaustion. So it ends up being this annoying resource you have to manage that doesn't resolve itself quickly. Like... Almost every other class resource recovers Ina single long rest, and the few that don't still don't give you any additional punishment beyond just not having access to that resource for a few days.
Zealot. With the extra Divine Fury damage, Polearm master feat, and reckless attack you will easily surpass the damage benefits from Zerk without the exhaustion headache.
Uhm… this is a bit misleading; the Berserker can also use Reckless Attack and can take Polearm Master for the extra reaction attack and weaker bonus attack when they're not in a Frenzied Rage, so this is of no unique advantage to the Zealot.
More likely though the Berserker would want to take Great Weapon Master, giving them another bonus action attack option for criticals and against weaker hordes (so you can save Frenzy for later). Because when they do pop Frenzied Rage they can now make three reckless attacks with -5 to hit (countered by the advantage) and +10 damage for a massive boost. Or if you can squeeze in an extra feat just take both, since GWM isn't limited to a greataxe, greatsword etc.
Also again, people massively exaggerate exhaustion as a disadvantage; you need at least three points before it's a serious detriment, and in a campaign with decent downtime/travel time it's not that hard to manage. It's a strategic decision for the player, and all it really does it make Berserker a session zero sub-class; ask the DM if the exhaustion is going to be a problem in their campaign or not, but even in cases where you're rationing frenzy to once a day it's still a lot of fun to play for when you do trigger it, and you can always push further when you need to, it just comes at a cost.
In your opinion exhaustion isn't a serious detriment. I have played with plenty of people who played berserkers who, after a few combats with just one or two exhaustion points just stopped using the ability. Full stop. I have one in a ongoing campaign where he uses it exclusively on boss fights as it made everything that wasn't that one combat just suck. And sure, he feels great for that one fight, but then we won't see the ability for another 4-8 sessions until we see another boss. It makes skillchecks unfun. It takes away enjoyment from literally all other parts of the game minus combat. Any social encounters central to your character? nope. If you have any combats at the start of the day you probably have to write most of it off ability check wise. And people playing barbs are not immune to non-combat stuff. And if you have to ration the ability so much so its only used rarely... why pick the subclass. The zealot just gets its damage. for free. No penalties. Sure if we just assume the berserker is always frenzied and it has zero repercussions then yeah it probably outmatches the zealot in damage. But in reality, after that one combat the zealot if better at every single skillcheck and can still use its ability for free. If the berserker uses it a second time, those differences just get worse, and at that point it takes multiple days, or a greater restoration, to fix it.
I love the idea of the berserker but the guaranteed exhaustion IS a problem because it is unfun. Disadvantage sucks. Sure you can fight that in combat but.... you just get similar mileage without sucking the fun outta all other areas of the game. They need either a way to recover from exhaustion faster, or make it a chance of exhaustion. Risk and reward.
Two is bad due to the speed loss which you rely on to even get close enough to do any damage.
Barbarians increase in speed at 5th level, leaving you with 20 foot movement on most characters; this is hardly crippling.
Three is pretty near making you useless as DIS on attacks drops your DPR significantly more and makes having GWM pretty bad since you can't get ADV on attacks the rest of the day.
You only gain disadvantage on attacks once you actually take the level of exhaustion which a happens after the Frenzied Rage ends; that's the judgement you have to make, is it going to be too much or is it manageable until you can rest?
If you only have 1-2 battles a day then sure it's fine. Any more than that PAM and the other subclasses (minus battle rager) are generally better IMO
It's not the total number of battles that matters, it's the total number of times you decide to Frenzied Rage and why; it's an ability that's best against boss type encounters, during which your damage matters far more than the chaff you might have to mop up on the way there.
For me, the biggest problem with exhaustion is that a long rest only recovers one level of exhaustion. So it ends up being this annoying resource you have to manage that doesn't resolve itself quickly. Like... Almost every other class resource recovers Ina single long rest, and the few that don't still don't give you any additional punishment beyond just not having access to that resource for a few days.
That's more of a general problem with D&D; far too many classes just fully reset but that's boring. There's zero cost to a Wizard in burning every single spell slot they have during an adventuring day; they should be exhausted, maybe even in real danger of doing themselves permanent injury, likewise a Fighter who action surges many times and has five or six "second" winds during the day and so-on.
I don't blame Berserker for actually using the game mechanic though, it's just part of playing one; don't push too hard if you can't recover from it. Again speak to your DM to find out how much of a problem that recovery is likely to be.
In your opinion exhaustion isn't a serious detriment.
It's not simply opinion, it's a simple provable fact. It's a game mechanic; learn how it works and decide for yourself if you're okay with playing it. Same as literally every sub-class.
It's also not that hard to manage; you just have to think before using it. Will you have downtime/travel time? Is this likely to be the last battle or should I save it? It's a strategic choice and that seems to be why people hate it, because they don't want to think.
And it's not actually that hard to clear exhaustion; there is even a spell (available to many casters by 9th level) and a potion (available whenever your DM feels like) that can be used to manage exhaustion. There is even an alternative rest system (Epic Heroism) in the Dungeon Master's Guide. I'm going to say this again (not that any of you seem capable of reading it); talk to your ******* DM. They have a bunch of extra tools to deal with exhaustion that you as players do not (and clearly the majority of respondents here fail to grasp, yet I've said it more than enough times). D&D is a DM led game FFS, why is that so hard for people to understand?
But I'm not going around in circles on this; I've done it too many times before. I know from experience how quickly these forums become a pile-on against anyone pointing out that Berserker can actually be perfectly fine to play, because apparently everything in D&D must be strengths without characterful weaknesses and classes and sub-classes must be point and click no-brainers.
Yet one of the 5th edition rules designers Mike Mearls clearly sees the Berserker as working exactly as intended. I wish more people would try to think about why instead of just wining that they could have done a little more damage in total throughout the adventuring day if they'd taken the point-and-click Zealot and used some premade template build. Think for yourselves; character comes first, always. Or it should.
If I played the game like people on these forums seem to want me to play all of my characters would end up killing themselves.
I've said my piece and am unsubscribing, hopefully the OP finds it useful to have a counter opinion on the Berserker rather than the dull, insipid group-think that pervades these topics.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
It's not the total number of battles that matters, it's the total number of times you decide to Frenzied Rage
I think this is exactly why it depends on the number of encounters per day. If its the 8 encounters per long rest suggested in the DMG, then you really do start to use up other resources by not having a 3rd level ability (or a reason to take up PAM). All the damage taken from not ending monsters earlier, the hit dice spent, spell slots spent on healing/resurrection, other party resources spent to secure kills.
Yes, you can manage Frenzy so it is practically a once a day ability... but that already has that serious drawback baked in. Exhaustion on top is just annoying.
And the ability to just use it a few extra times in a session just means you can't use it in the next session. The cumulative build up means it has to practically average out to once a day, unless the DM just handwaves this to let you spam long rests anyways, in which case the whole exhaustion mechanic is pointless.
I'd hope they just rework it to be half proficiency bonus times a day rounded up for Frenzied rages.
It's not the total number of battles that matters, it's the total number of times you decide to Frenzied Rage
I think this is exactly why it depends on the number of encounters per day. If its the 8 encounters per long rest suggested in the DMG, then you really do start to use up other resources by not having a 3rd level ability (or a reason to take up PAM). All the damage taken from not ending monsters earlier, the hit dice spent, spell slots spent on healing/resurrection, other party resources spent to secure kills.
Yes, you can manage Frenzy so it is practically a once a day ability... but that already has that serious drawback baked in. Exhaustion on top is just annoying.
And the ability to just use it a few extra times in a session just means you can't use it in the next session. The cumulative build up means it has to practically average out to once a day, unless the DM just handwaves this to let you spam long rests anyways, in which case the whole exhaustion mechanic is pointless.
I'd hope they just rework it to be half proficiency bonus times a day rounded up for Frenzied rages.
Or let you ignore exhaustion while raging which fixes it too.
The major issue then is you don't get to use your subclass in a good amount of fights because it's a pain in the ass to have to deal with.
It's poor design to balance an ability by making it annoying to use. Even if MM wanted it that way doesn't make it good design or fun to play.
It's not the total number of battles that matters, it's the total number of times you decide to Frenzied Rage
I think this is exactly why it depends on the number of encounters per day. If its the 8 encounters per long rest suggested in the DMG, then you really do start to use up other resources by not having a 3rd level ability (or a reason to take up PAM). All the damage taken from not ending monsters earlier, the hit dice spent, spell slots spent on healing/resurrection, other party resources spent to secure kills.
Yes, you can manage Frenzy so it is practically a once a day ability... but that already has that serious drawback baked in. Exhaustion on top is just annoying.
And the ability to just use it a few extra times in a session just means you can't use it in the next session. The cumulative build up means it has to practically average out to once a day, unless the DM just handwaves this to let you spam long rests anyways, in which case the whole exhaustion mechanic is pointless.
I'd hope they just rework it to be half proficiency bonus times a day rounded up for Frenzied rages.
Or let you ignore exhaustion while raging which fixes it too
That could over-compensate by making the Berserker clearly the best damage dealer of the subclasses. But it probably wouldn't be broken to have one be be best in that category.
Two is bad due to the speed loss which you rely on to even get close enough to do any damage.
Barbarians increase in speed at 5th level, leaving you with 20 foot movement on most characters; this is hardly crippling.
Three is pretty near making you useless as DIS on attacks drops your DPR significantly more and makes having GWM pretty bad since you can't get ADV on attacks the rest of the day.
You only gain disadvantage on attacks once you actually take the level of exhaustion which a happens after the Frenzied Rage ends; that's the judgement you have to make, is it going to be too much or is it manageable until you can rest?
If you only have 1-2 battles a day then sure it's fine. Any more than that PAM and the other subclasses (minus battle rager) are generally better IMO
It's not the total number of battles that matters, it's the total number of times you decide to Frenzied Rage and why; it's an ability that's best against boss type encounters, during which your damage matters far more than the chaff you might have to mop up on the way there.
For me, the biggest problem with exhaustion is that a long rest only recovers one level of exhaustion. So it ends up being this annoying resource you have to manage that doesn't resolve itself quickly. Like... Almost every other class resource recovers Ina single long rest, and the few that don't still don't give you any additional punishment beyond just not having access to that resource for a few days.
That's more of a general problem with D&D; far too many classes just fully reset but that's boring. There's zero cost to a Wizard in burning every single spell slot they have during an adventuring day; they should be exhausted, maybe even in real danger of doing themselves permanent injury, likewise a Fighter who action surges many times and has five or six "second" winds during the day and so-on.
I don't blame Berserker for actually using the game mechanic though, it's just part of playing one; don't push too hard if you can't recover from it. Again speak to your DM to find out how much of a problem that recovery is likely to be.
In your opinion exhaustion isn't a serious detriment.
It's not simply opinion, it's a simple provable fact. It's a game mechanic; learn how it works and decide for yourself if you're okay with playing it. Same as literally every sub-class.
It's also not that hard to manage; you just have to think before using it. Will you have downtime/travel time? Is this likely to be the last battle or should I save it? It's a strategic choice and that seems to be why people hate it, because they don't want to think.
And it's not actually that hard to clear exhaustion; there is even a spell (available to many casters by 9th level) and a potion (available whenever your DM feels like) that can be used to manage exhaustion. There is even an alternative rest system (Epic Heroism) in the Dungeon Master's Guide. I'm going to say this again (not that any of you seem capable of reading it); talk to your ****ing DM. They have a bunch of extra tools to deal with exhaustion that you as players do not (and clearly the majority of respondents here fail to grasp, yet I've said it more than enough times). D&D is a DM led game FFS, why is that so hard for people to understand?
But I'm not going around in circles on this; I've done it too many times before. I know from experience how quickly these forums become a pile-on against anyone pointing out that Berserker can actually be perfectly fine to play, because apparently everything in D&D must be strengths without characterful weaknesses and classes and sub-classes must be point and click no-brainers.
Yet one of the 5th edition rules designers Mike Mearls clearly sees the Berserker as working exactly as intended. I wish more people would try to think about why instead of just wining that they could have done a little more damage in total throughout the adventuring day if they'd taken the point-and-click Zealot and used some premade template build. Think for yourselves; character comes first, always. Or it should.
If I played the game like people on these forums seem to want me to play all of my characters would end up killing themselves.
I've said my piece and am unsubscribing, hopefully the OP finds it useful to have a counter opinion on the Berserker rather than the dull, insipid group-think that pervades these topics.
I mean can you not be passive aggressive. Like I said, people have played this class and think it’s unfun. And yes. As I LITERALLY SAID in my post, it’s usually saved for boss fights, meaning that for 90% of the game you have no subclass ability and the zealot outdamages you. That’s a fact.
the berserker is a fun idea that just… isn’t fun in practice. When it shines it’s great. But when it doesn’t it sucks.
and don’t throw “learn the rules at me” when you cite multiple things I have said in the post you quoted from. I know how the mechanic works. I know how exhaustion works. I know how to remove it. It does not make it any less fun to deal with. And that is the berserkers problem. It’s a base barbarian until you frenzy. But you have to manage that and have strict plans for the future. Anything unexpected, an ambush in the night, fights you start losing and are forced to use this more often. The recovery time is just too long.
we can have different opinions and you don’t have to get passive aggressive and start hurling insults at people for daring to think differently about something. Enjoy the berserker if you want. But a significant majority of people who played it do not find that penalty fun and have suggested reasonable additions that could make it more fun. Because that’s the part that matters. Players enjoying the experience.
Two is bad due to the speed loss which you rely on to even get close enough to do any damage.
Barbarians increase in speed at 5th level, leaving you with 20 foot movement on most characters; this is hardly crippling.
Three is pretty near making you useless as DIS on attacks drops your DPR significantly more and makes having GWM pretty bad since you can't get ADV on attacks the rest of the day.
You only gain disadvantage on attacks once you actually take the level of exhaustion which a happens after the Frenzied Rage ends; that's the judgement you have to make, is it going to be too much or is it manageable until you can rest?
If you only have 1-2 battles a day then sure it's fine. Any more than that PAM and the other subclasses (minus battle rager) are generally better IMO
It's not the total number of battles that matters, it's the total number of times you decide to Frenzied Rage and why; it's an ability that's best against boss type encounters, during which your damage matters far more than the chaff you might have to mop up on the way there.
For me, the biggest problem with exhaustion is that a long rest only recovers one level of exhaustion. So it ends up being this annoying resource you have to manage that doesn't resolve itself quickly. Like... Almost every other class resource recovers Ina single long rest, and the few that don't still don't give you any additional punishment beyond just not having access to that resource for a few days.
That's more of a general problem with D&D; far too many classes just fully reset but that's boring. There's zero cost to a Wizard in burning every single spell slot they have during an adventuring day; they should be exhausted, maybe even in real danger of doing themselves permanent injury, likewise a Fighter who action surges many times and has five or six "second" winds during the day and so-on.
I don't blame Berserker for actually using the game mechanic though, it's just part of playing one; don't push too hard if you can't recover from it. Again speak to your DM to find out how much of a problem that recovery is likely to be.
In your opinion exhaustion isn't a serious detriment.
It's not simply opinion, it's a simple provable fact. It's a game mechanic; learn how it works and decide for yourself if you're okay with playing it. Same as literally every sub-class.
It's also not that hard to manage; you just have to think before using it. Will you have downtime/travel time? Is this likely to be the last battle or should I save it? It's a strategic choice and that seems to be why people hate it, because they don't want to think.
And it's not actually that hard to clear exhaustion; there is even a spell (available to many casters by 9th level) and a potion (available whenever your DM feels like) that can be used to manage exhaustion. There is even an alternative rest system (Epic Heroism) in the Dungeon Master's Guide. I'm going to say this again (not that any of you seem capable of reading it); talk to your ****ing DM. They have a bunch of extra tools to deal with exhaustion that you as players do not (and clearly the majority of respondents here fail to grasp, yet I've said it more than enough times). D&D is a DM led game FFS, why is that so hard for people to understand?
But I'm not going around in circles on this; I've done it too many times before. I know from experience how quickly these forums become a pile-on against anyone pointing out that Berserker can actually be perfectly fine to play, because apparently everything in D&D must be strengths without characterful weaknesses and classes and sub-classes must be point and click no-brainers.
Yet one of the 5th edition rules designers Mike Mearls clearly sees the Berserker as working exactly as intended. I wish more people would try to think about why instead of just wining that they could have done a little more damage in total throughout the adventuring day if they'd taken the point-and-click Zealot and used some premade template build. Think for yourselves; character comes first, always. Or it should.
If I played the game like people on these forums seem to want me to play all of my characters would end up killing themselves.
I've said my piece and am unsubscribing, hopefully the OP finds it useful to have a counter opinion on the Berserker rather than the dull, insipid group-think that pervades these topics.
I mean can you not be passive aggressive. Like I said, people have played this class and think it’s unfun. And yes. As I LITERALLY SAID in my post, it’s usually saved for boss fights, meaning that for 90% of the game you have no subclass ability and the zealot outdamages you. That’s a fact.
the berserker is a fun idea that just… isn’t fun in practice. When it shines it’s great. But when it doesn’t it sucks.
and don’t throw “learn the rules at me” when you cite multiple things I have said in the post you quoted from. I know how the mechanic works. I know how exhaustion works. I know how to remove it. It does not make it any less fun to deal with. And that is the berserkers problem. It’s a base barbarian until you frenzy. But you have to manage that and have strict plans for the future. Anything unexpected, an ambush in the night, fights you start losing and are forced to use this more often. The recovery time is just too long.
we can have different opinions and you don’t have to get passive aggressive and start hurling insults at people for daring to think differently about something. Enjoy the berserker if you want. But a significant majority of people who played it do not find that penalty fun and have suggested reasonable additions that could make it more fun. Because that’s the part that matters. Players enjoying the experience.
I agree... we can have a discussion about this without devolving into petty insults for the people we disagree with.
As for the point that more things should cause exhaustion... I can see how that could be a way to balance out Berserker and make it feel like less of a trap than it often does, but the simple fact remains that, unless I'm mistaken, no other subclass in the game has an ability that induces exhaustion. If it was a more common mechanic it wouldn't feel so punishing to have a subclass whose primary ability causes it. Are you in a game where Exhaustion is a regular concern outside of your Berserker abilities? Well, then you might as well not have a subclass, because if you're trudging through the desert and getting exhaustion from heat stroke every day, then you just can't frenzy. Meanwhile, literally every other Barbarian Subclass can do everything you do, plus some other thing, even if it's something stupid like being able to wear spikey armor and hug people to death.
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Ren
If I had to choose between those two I would pick Path of the Zealot. I am not really into divine based classes but the damage from Divine Fury is really good. They also can be raised from the dead for free. And that is all at level 3. After that they can reroll a failed save once per rage. Then they can give their entire party advantage on everything for an entire round. Finally they cannot die while raging, which honestly seems like something the berserker should have gotten.
Really the only thing going for berserker is immunity to fear and charm while raging. These are the biggest weakness of barbarians and being straight immune is amazing. However Frenzy is really punishing and you can practically get the same effect all the time by dual wielding or taking the Polearm Master feat. Intimidating Presence is really just a waste of an action and likely other party members are better at battlefield control. And finally Retaliation let's you attack with your reaction but that can be done easily with Polearm Master.
So you could go Path of the Zealot and take the Polearm Master feat and get the best of both worlds.
I'm gonna also say Zealot. If you're looking for pure damage Berserker edges out Zealot early on... even with something like Polearm Master or the Dual Wielder feat you won't deal as much damage as a Berserker who can make a bonus action attack with a heavy, two-handed weapon each round... for one combat of the day. After that you're going to end up with the headache of managing exhaustion on top of everything else. So if you decide to push yourself and frenzy multiple times in one day, you're going to be performing worse and will need an extra day of rest to be back in fighting shape. It's really only useful if you've got the kind of DM who focuses on one big fight each day instead of multiple battles throughout a single adventuring day.
Zealot, meanwhile, is all up sides. Free damage tacked onto your attacks with no additional action needed on your part, and you still have a bonus action you can use for other features. It also frees you up to go completely reckless at all times, because as long as you've got someone in your party with revivify they can bring you back when you royally screw up without any GP cost... and eventually you'll be able to just keep fighting even after dropping to 0 hp.
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Berserker is one of the worst subclasses in the game - Zealot, no question.
Zealot by a wide margin. You can do huge margin and (unlike Berserker) you can apply your subclass abilities without suffering exhaustion, which is hugely punishing.
Zealot. Berserker is a bit of a trap with the exhaustion levels from Frenzy, and while the bonus action attack isn't bad, its not that exciting.
Ask your DM; Berserker is only "bad" if you never get enough time to rest, otherwise it's a perfectly good sub-class for your classic two-handed weapon Barbarian as a third full attack without requiring a feat (or which you can still stack feats on top of) is great.
Exhaustion can be punishing, but it's not as bad as people make out if yours is a campaign with a proper amount of downtime/travel time; the first point (disadvantage on ability checks) isn't a big deal for a barbarian unless you grapple a lot (which a Berserker probably won't), while reduced speed is less of a concern as you get increased speed anyway. It's only really once you hit that third point (disadvantage on attacks) that it's really a problem, and even then it's only a problem after the Frenzied Rage ends, and you can use Reckless Attack to counteract it if you absolutely need to.
In practice you'll either use Frenzied Rage once a day when you're fighting an end boss, and it's great for that; or you'll use it several times on a particular intense adventuring day if you know you'll have some downtime/travel time to recover. This is one of the things people forget in D&D; it takes a long time to get places before you have access to Teleport (which many campaigns never get). This makes Frenzied Rage a strategic decision, which lazy min-maxers hate (they want point-and-click sub-classes that get everything for free).
A lot of people try to say that Berserkers are bad because any two-handed weapon Barbarian can take Great Weapon Master (which gives a bonus action attack some of the time) or Polearm Master (which gives a weaker bonus action attack all of the time) but this kind of misses the point; as the Berserker can take either of these as well, and it gives them more flexibility in when they use Frenzied Rage. For example, if you're faced with a weak horde of enemies, with GWM you should have a good chance of triggering your bonus action attack most rounds, so you can save your Frenzied Rage for when you're fighting more elite enemies that won't go down as easily.
There's also the way it fits into a party; if you're likely to have anyone able to cast Greater Restoration then exhaustion is less of a drawback, and having more full attacks combines nicely with anything that can be cast on you that boosts multiple attacks such as Bless, Crusader's Mantle and so-on. Having access to the full extra attack is also just good if you expect to get a magic weapon (more attacks is always better with any kind of attack bonus).
Zealot is simpler mechanically but weird thematically; it can work as a (lower case) berserker but you'll be retheming and justifying features, and really if a berserker is what you want to play as then the Berserker sub-class is what you should use. Just talk to your DM first to make sure the exhaustion element isn't going to become an issue (find out if they'll use realistic travel times, if they were planning to use party exhaustion a lot or such).
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Zealot. Berserker is terrible.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Zealot. With the extra Divine Fury damage, Polearm master feat, and reckless attack you will easily surpass the damage benefits from Zerk without the exhaustion headache.
Plus you rez for free and eventually have a big team boost that can turn the tide of a battle.
Uhm… this is a bit misleading; the Berserker can also use Reckless Attack and can take Polearm Master for the extra reaction attack and weaker bonus attack when they're not in a Frenzied Rage, so this is of no unique advantage to the Zealot.
More likely though the Berserker would want to take Great Weapon Master, giving them another bonus action attack option for criticals and against weaker hordes (so you can save Frenzy for later). Because when they do pop Frenzied Rage they can now make three reckless attacks with -5 to hit (countered by the advantage) and +10 damage for a massive boost. Or if you can squeeze in an extra feat just take both, since GWM isn't limited to a greataxe, greatsword etc.
Also again, people massively exaggerate exhaustion as a disadvantage; you need at least three points before it's a serious detriment, and in a campaign with decent downtime/travel time it's not that hard to manage. It's a strategic decision for the player, and all it really does it make Berserker a session zero sub-class; ask the DM if the exhaustion is going to be a problem in their campaign or not, but even in cases where you're rationing frenzy to once a day it's still a lot of fun to play for when you do trigger it, and you can always push further when you need to, it just comes at a cost.
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Two is bad due to the speed loss which you rely on to even get close enough to do any damage. Three is pretty near making you useless as DIS on attacks drops your DPR significantly more and makes having GWM pretty bad since you can't get ADV on attacks the rest of the day.
If you only have 1-2 battles a day then sure it's fine. Any more than that PAM and the other subclasses (minus battle rager) are generally better IMO
For me, the biggest problem with exhaustion is that a long rest only recovers one level of exhaustion. So it ends up being this annoying resource you have to manage that doesn't resolve itself quickly. Like... Almost every other class resource recovers Ina single long rest, and the few that don't still don't give you any additional punishment beyond just not having access to that resource for a few days.
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In your opinion exhaustion isn't a serious detriment. I have played with plenty of people who played berserkers who, after a few combats with just one or two exhaustion points just stopped using the ability. Full stop. I have one in a ongoing campaign where he uses it exclusively on boss fights as it made everything that wasn't that one combat just suck. And sure, he feels great for that one fight, but then we won't see the ability for another 4-8 sessions until we see another boss. It makes skillchecks unfun. It takes away enjoyment from literally all other parts of the game minus combat. Any social encounters central to your character? nope. If you have any combats at the start of the day you probably have to write most of it off ability check wise. And people playing barbs are not immune to non-combat stuff. And if you have to ration the ability so much so its only used rarely... why pick the subclass. The zealot just gets its damage. for free. No penalties. Sure if we just assume the berserker is always frenzied and it has zero repercussions then yeah it probably outmatches the zealot in damage. But in reality, after that one combat the zealot if better at every single skillcheck and can still use its ability for free. If the berserker uses it a second time, those differences just get worse, and at that point it takes multiple days, or a greater restoration, to fix it.
I love the idea of the berserker but the guaranteed exhaustion IS a problem because it is unfun. Disadvantage sucks. Sure you can fight that in combat but.... you just get similar mileage without sucking the fun outta all other areas of the game. They need either a way to recover from exhaustion faster, or make it a chance of exhaustion. Risk and reward.
Barbarians increase in speed at 5th level, leaving you with 20 foot movement on most characters; this is hardly crippling.
You only gain disadvantage on attacks once you actually take the level of exhaustion which a happens after the Frenzied Rage ends; that's the judgement you have to make, is it going to be too much or is it manageable until you can rest?
It's not the total number of battles that matters, it's the total number of times you decide to Frenzied Rage and why; it's an ability that's best against boss type encounters, during which your damage matters far more than the chaff you might have to mop up on the way there.
That's more of a general problem with D&D; far too many classes just fully reset but that's boring. There's zero cost to a Wizard in burning every single spell slot they have during an adventuring day; they should be exhausted, maybe even in real danger of doing themselves permanent injury, likewise a Fighter who action surges many times and has five or six "second" winds during the day and so-on.
I don't blame Berserker for actually using the game mechanic though, it's just part of playing one; don't push too hard if you can't recover from it. Again speak to your DM to find out how much of a problem that recovery is likely to be.
It's not simply opinion, it's a simple provable fact. It's a game mechanic; learn how it works and decide for yourself if you're okay with playing it. Same as literally every sub-class.
It's also not that hard to manage; you just have to think before using it. Will you have downtime/travel time? Is this likely to be the last battle or should I save it? It's a strategic choice and that seems to be why people hate it, because they don't want to think.
And it's not actually that hard to clear exhaustion; there is even a spell (available to many casters by 9th level) and a potion (available whenever your DM feels like) that can be used to manage exhaustion. There is even an alternative rest system (Epic Heroism) in the Dungeon Master's Guide. I'm going to say this again (not that any of you seem capable of reading it); talk to your ******* DM. They have a bunch of extra tools to deal with exhaustion that you as players do not (and clearly the majority of respondents here fail to grasp, yet I've said it more than enough times). D&D is a DM led game FFS, why is that so hard for people to understand?
But I'm not going around in circles on this; I've done it too many times before. I know from experience how quickly these forums become a pile-on against anyone pointing out that Berserker can actually be perfectly fine to play, because apparently everything in D&D must be strengths without characterful weaknesses and classes and sub-classes must be point and click no-brainers.
Yet one of the 5th edition rules designers Mike Mearls clearly sees the Berserker as working exactly as intended. I wish more people would try to think about why instead of just wining that they could have done a little more damage in total throughout the adventuring day if they'd taken the point-and-click Zealot and used some premade template build. Think for yourselves; character comes first, always. Or it should.
If I played the game like people on these forums seem to want me to play all of my characters would end up killing themselves.
I've said my piece and am unsubscribing, hopefully the OP finds it useful to have a counter opinion on the Berserker rather than the dull, insipid group-think that pervades these topics.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
I think this is exactly why it depends on the number of encounters per day. If its the 8 encounters per long rest suggested in the DMG, then you really do start to use up other resources by not having a 3rd level ability (or a reason to take up PAM). All the damage taken from not ending monsters earlier, the hit dice spent, spell slots spent on healing/resurrection, other party resources spent to secure kills.
Yes, you can manage Frenzy so it is practically a once a day ability... but that already has that serious drawback baked in. Exhaustion on top is just annoying.
And the ability to just use it a few extra times in a session just means you can't use it in the next session. The cumulative build up means it has to practically average out to once a day, unless the DM just handwaves this to let you spam long rests anyways, in which case the whole exhaustion mechanic is pointless.
I'd hope they just rework it to be half proficiency bonus times a day rounded up for Frenzied rages.
Or let you ignore exhaustion while raging which fixes it too.
The major issue then is you don't get to use your subclass in a good amount of fights because it's a pain in the ass to have to deal with.
It's poor design to balance an ability by making it annoying to use. Even if MM wanted it that way doesn't make it good design or fun to play.
That could over-compensate by making the Berserker clearly the best damage dealer of the subclasses. But it probably wouldn't be broken to have one be be best in that category.
I mean can you not be passive aggressive. Like I said, people have played this class and think it’s unfun. And yes. As I LITERALLY SAID in my post, it’s usually saved for boss fights, meaning that for 90% of the game you have no subclass ability and the zealot outdamages you. That’s a fact.
the berserker is a fun idea that just… isn’t fun in practice. When it shines it’s great. But when it doesn’t it sucks.
and don’t throw “learn the rules at me” when you cite multiple things I have said in the post you quoted from. I know how the mechanic works. I know how exhaustion works. I know how to remove it. It does not make it any less fun to deal with. And that is the berserkers problem. It’s a base barbarian until you frenzy. But you have to manage that and have strict plans for the future. Anything unexpected, an ambush in the night, fights you start losing and are forced to use this more often. The recovery time is just too long.
we can have different opinions and you don’t have to get passive aggressive and start hurling insults at people for daring to think differently about something. Enjoy the berserker if you want. But a significant majority of people who played it do not find that penalty fun and have suggested reasonable additions that could make it more fun. Because that’s the part that matters. Players enjoying the experience.
+ 1 on this!!
I agree... we can have a discussion about this without devolving into petty insults for the people we disagree with.
As for the point that more things should cause exhaustion... I can see how that could be a way to balance out Berserker and make it feel like less of a trap than it often does, but the simple fact remains that, unless I'm mistaken, no other subclass in the game has an ability that induces exhaustion. If it was a more common mechanic it wouldn't feel so punishing to have a subclass whose primary ability causes it. Are you in a game where Exhaustion is a regular concern outside of your Berserker abilities? Well, then you might as well not have a subclass, because if you're trudging through the desert and getting exhaustion from heat stroke every day, then you just can't frenzy. Meanwhile, literally every other Barbarian Subclass can do everything you do, plus some other thing, even if it's something stupid like being able to wear spikey armor and hug people to death.
Watch Crits for Breakfast, an adults-only RP-Heavy Roll20 Livestream at twitch.tv/afterdisbooty
And now you too can play with the amazing art and assets we use in Roll20 for our campaign at Hazel's Emporium