The important thing here is to realize that moving the still defender via ready action is a underutilized tactic. Even something as simple as keeping it next to an enemy trying to use arranged attack of some sort can be a huge advantage for your party for a little investment on your part. Not only do they generate disadvantage on incoming attacks that way they also provide cover.
Agreed, having them stick to a ranged enemy is a great way to apply disadvantage more efficiently than with their regular Reaction. Also having them move around and triggering opportunity attacks from enemies can help your team as well (doesn't help with their survival though lol)
I thought Readying an action limited you to one action, and also used your Reaction to trigger it. So if you use your readied action to follow the bad guy, you can't use your reaction to impose Disadvantage anymore since that also requires your reaction.
Ranged attacks have disadvantage if an enemy is within 5ft so the net results are the same.
It actually is even better against ranged enemies since it'd apply to all their attacks and against any target instead of just one attack against a target that's within 5ft of the Steel Defender.
Potentially, but they can just move and shoot. It's still a viable use, because they will have to choose between disadvantage or receiving a reaction attack that does relatively low damage if it hits.
I use mine as a mech suit because I’m playing a gnome
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Hollow unbreakable arrows are the most OP common magic item, and my current method of coming up with insane combat shenanigans.
if you make a steel pipe with one end closed and a nozzle on the other, you can enlarge it, fill with any liquid, and then drop concentration, creating a high pressure squirt gun. (or a pipe bomb, depending if it holds)
My concept is a deep gnome Don Quixoteesque superidealistic character. Chivalry and honor and all that. Since horses aren’t in the Underdark, he creates a brass dragon- like mount. This is his Steel Defender. I gave him a lance a short sword scale mail and a shield. Charge in with the lance, it hits from two spaces away. Drop the lance, dismount. Draw short sword. The homonculus provides the help action while the SD helps others in the party. The dodge is enough to prevent it from getting hammered.
The important thing here is to realize that moving the still defender via ready action is a underutilized tactic. Even something as simple as keeping it next to an enemy trying to use arranged attack of some sort can be a huge advantage for your party for a little investment on your part. Not only do they generate disadvantage on incoming attacks that way they also provide cover.
Agreed, having them stick to a ranged enemy is a great way to apply disadvantage more efficiently than with their regular Reaction. Also having them move around and triggering opportunity attacks from enemies can help your team as well (doesn't help with their survival though lol)
I thought Readying an action limited you to one action, and also used your Reaction to trigger it. So if you use your readied action to follow the bad guy, you can't use your reaction to impose Disadvantage anymore since that also requires your reaction.
Ranged attacks have disadvantage if an enemy is within 5ft so the net results are the same.
It actually is even better against ranged enemies since it'd apply to all their attacks and against any target instead of just one attack against a target that's within 5ft of the Steel Defender.
Potentially, but they can just move and shoot. It's still a viable use, because they will have to choose between disadvantage or receiving a reaction attack that does relatively low damage if it hits.
The point was to follow them with your Steel Defender's readied action when they move away from it. Unless they have more movement than your Steel Defender it'd be literally impossible for them to get away from it.
If I was your DM I would 1up your mechanics abuse by just leading the defender past every other enemy in 30ft and let them attack of opportunity it to death
I'm currently playing as an 18th level Battlesmith Artificer in a 1-20 campaign; she's actually the only member of the original party too.
Across all tiers, I used the steel defender to bolster my defenses via deflect attacks and take some hits that someone else could have taken; they also make decent pack mules. Another thing to note is that they cannot be surprised and have expertise in perception, so they can spot danger for the group. Right now, the steel defender has the highest perception in the party with a +12.
Early on, it is also decent for the extra bit of damage it does. Though one thing to note is that my DM allows me to perform Shoves and Grapples with my steel defender. Tier 2, it is still decent for the extra bit of damage and it can still take a good number of hits, but only having 15 AC can make it feel fragile. Tier 3 and 4, its low durability definitely is noticable, even after gettings its AC boosted. Extra damage is extra damage (including on deflect attack) but it is not too noticable. Still great for a pack mule. One thing my DM let me do was to build vocal cords for it as I had it attune to a Headband of Intellect that I infused, thus allowing it to fluently speak which has been rather useful with its expertise in Perception. Rather, it is useful to have magic items that require an action to use, especially if they require attunement, which does add some additional offensive options if you give it wands, staves, or ring of spell storing. The steel defender also combos well with the spell storing item, effectively letting you case the spell stored in it as a bonus action through your steel defender. Also, if the spell requires Concentration, it would be the steel defender concentrating and the steel defender does have proficiency in con saves.
The important thing here is to realize that moving the still defender via ready action is a underutilized tactic. Even something as simple as keeping it next to an enemy trying to use arranged attack of some sort can be a huge advantage for your party for a little investment on your part. Not only do they generate disadvantage on incoming attacks that way they also provide cover.
Agreed, having them stick to a ranged enemy is a great way to apply disadvantage more efficiently than with their regular Reaction. Also having them move around and triggering opportunity attacks from enemies can help your team as well (doesn't help with their survival though lol)
I thought Readying an action limited you to one action, and also used your Reaction to trigger it. So if you use your readied action to follow the bad guy, you can't use your reaction to impose Disadvantage anymore since that also requires your reaction.
Ranged attacks have disadvantage if an enemy is within 5ft so the net results are the same.
It actually is even better against ranged enemies since it'd apply to all their attacks and against any target instead of just one attack against a target that's within 5ft of the Steel Defender.
Potentially, but they can just move and shoot. It's still a viable use, because they will have to choose between disadvantage or receiving a reaction attack that does relatively low damage if it hits.
The point was to follow them with your Steel Defender's readied action when they move away from it. Unless they have more movement than your Steel Defender it'd be literally impossible for them to get away from it.
If I was your DM I would 1up your mechanics abuse by just leading the defender past every other enemy in 30ft and let them attack of opportunity it to death
Abuse? You don't know what you're talking about. Literally nothing about that is abusing or exploiting anything. It's literally just one-on-one defense/man-to-man marking which has been done in various sports since forever. Sure you can lead the defender past every other enemy in 30ft. That's perfectly reasonable and smart of the enemy. Also makes every enemy use their Reaction so the rest of the party doesn't have to worry about those that turn anymore so it's not like you wouldn't get anything out of it either.
Also on a sidenote, if your reaction as a DM is to 1up your players then you're a terrible DM. That's a DM vs players mindset. You're playing the game together, not against eachother.
You :"Sure you can lead the defender past every other enemy in 30ft. That's perfectly reasonable and smart of the enemy" Also you: "if your reaction as a DM is to 1up your players then you're a terrible DM"
So is it reasonable and smart or is a a bad DM that had a dm vs player mindset?
The important thing here is to realize that moving the still defender via ready action is a underutilized tactic. Even something as simple as keeping it next to an enemy trying to use arranged attack of some sort can be a huge advantage for your party for a little investment on your part. Not only do they generate disadvantage on incoming attacks that way they also provide cover.
Agreed, having them stick to a ranged enemy is a great way to apply disadvantage more efficiently than with their regular Reaction. Also having them move around and triggering opportunity attacks from enemies can help your team as well (doesn't help with their survival though lol)
I thought Readying an action limited you to one action, and also used your Reaction to trigger it. So if you use your readied action to follow the bad guy, you can't use your reaction to impose Disadvantage anymore since that also requires your reaction.
Ranged attacks have disadvantage if an enemy is within 5ft so the net results are the same.
It actually is even better against ranged enemies since it'd apply to all their attacks and against any target instead of just one attack against a target that's within 5ft of the Steel Defender.
Potentially, but they can just move and shoot. It's still a viable use, because they will have to choose between disadvantage or receiving a reaction attack that does relatively low damage if it hits.
The point was to follow them with your Steel Defender's readied action when they move away from it. Unless they have more movement than your Steel Defender it'd be literally impossible for them to get away from it.
If I was your DM I would 1up your mechanics abuse by just leading the defender past every other enemy in 30ft and let them attack of opportunity it to death
Abuse? You don't know what you're talking about. Literally nothing about that is abusing or exploiting anything. It's literally just one-on-one defense/man-to-man marking which has been done in various sports since forever. Sure you can lead the defender past every other enemy in 30ft. That's perfectly reasonable and smart of the enemy. Also makes every enemy use their Reaction so the rest of the party doesn't have to worry about those that turn anymore so it's not like you wouldn't get anything out of it either.
Also on a sidenote, if your reaction as a DM is to 1up your players then you're a terrible DM. That's a DM vs players mindset. You're playing the game together, not against eachother.
You :"Sure you can lead the defender past every other enemy in 30ft. That's perfectly reasonable and smart of the enemy" Also you: "if your reaction as a DM is to 1up your players then you're a terrible DM"
So is it reasonable and smart or is a a bad DM that had a dm vs player mindset?
One thing is not the same as the other. It's okay to play enemies smart but it's not okay to focus on 1upping your players just because you don't like what they're doing. If you can't see the difference there then I honestly don't know what else to tell you.
We are literally only talking about 1 thing, by definition can't be a difference.
That one thing is: "If I was your DM I would 1up your mechanics abuse by just leading the defender past every other enemy in 30ft and let them attack of opportunity it to death"
So is it smart and viable or is it bad DMing? Is intent the only distinction?
So, first I think it’s kind of absurd to suggest using your Steel Defender to defend you against ranged attack in this way is “abuse.” It’s literally just using the game mechanics in a manner consistent with their intended use.
But on the proposed DM retaliation against a player for using tactics, that won’t work well. If the enemy goes from A to B, the Defender does not have to follow the same path. It only needs to go from right next to A to right next to B. And it has 40 feet of movement to do so.
So, first I think it’s kind of absurd to suggest using your Steel Defender to defend you against ranged attack in this way is “abuse.” It’s literally just using the game mechanics in a manner consistent with their intended use.
But on the proposed DM retaliation against a player for using tactics, that won’t work well. If the enemy goes from A to B, the Defender does not have to follow the same path. It only needs to go from right next to A to right next to B. And it has 40 feet of movement to do so.
How come you consider using this attack of opportunity mechanic as retaliation, and not "just using the game mechanics in a manner consistent with their intended use"?
So, first I think it’s kind of absurd to suggest using your Steel Defender to defend you against ranged attack in this way is “abuse.” It’s literally just using the game mechanics in a manner consistent with their intended use.
But on the proposed DM retaliation against a player for using tactics, that won’t work well. If the enemy goes from A to B, the Defender does not have to follow the same path. It only needs to go from right next to A to right next to B. And it has 40 feet of movement to do so.
How come you consider using this attack of opportunity mechanic as retaliation, and not "just using the game mechanics in a manner consistent with their intended use"?
In a vacuum I don’t. Earlier a poster called the Steel Defender tactic “abuse” and talked about how he would punish such abuse.The ‘retaliation’ description was directed at the mindset, not the action itself.
The important thing here is to realize that moving the still defender via ready action is a underutilized tactic. Even something as simple as keeping it next to an enemy trying to use arranged attack of some sort can be a huge advantage for your party for a little investment on your part. Not only do they generate disadvantage on incoming attacks that way they also provide cover.
Agreed, having them stick to a ranged enemy is a great way to apply disadvantage more efficiently than with their regular Reaction. Also having them move around and triggering opportunity attacks from enemies can help your team as well (doesn't help with their survival though lol)
I thought Readying an action limited you to one action, and also used your Reaction to trigger it. So if you use your readied action to follow the bad guy, you can't use your reaction to impose Disadvantage anymore since that also requires your reaction.
Ranged attacks have disadvantage if an enemy is within 5ft so the net results are the same.
It actually is even better against ranged enemies since it'd apply to all their attacks and against any target instead of just one attack against a target that's within 5ft of the Steel Defender.
Potentially, but they can just move and shoot. It's still a viable use, because they will have to choose between disadvantage or receiving a reaction attack that does relatively low damage if it hits.
Except that the SD can't. If the SD readied an action to run after a ranged opponent, that uses up their reaction for that round. They don't have a reaction left to get an opportunity attack, meaning the ranged opponent can just walk away with no retaliation.
Potentially, but they can just move and shoot. It's still a viable use, because they will have to choose between disadvantage or receiving a reaction attack that does relatively low damage if it hits.
I use mine as a mech suit because I’m playing a gnome
Hollow unbreakable arrows are the most OP common magic item, and my current method of coming up with insane combat shenanigans.
if you make a steel pipe with one end closed and a nozzle on the other, you can enlarge it, fill with any liquid, and then drop concentration, creating a high pressure squirt gun. (or a pipe bomb, depending if it holds)
My concept is a deep gnome Don Quixoteesque superidealistic character. Chivalry and honor and all that. Since horses aren’t in the Underdark, he creates a brass dragon- like mount. This is his Steel Defender. I gave him a lance a short sword scale mail and a shield. Charge in with the lance, it hits from two spaces away. Drop the lance, dismount. Draw short sword. The homonculus provides the help action while the SD helps others in the party. The dodge is enough to prevent it from getting hammered.
If I was your DM I would 1up your mechanics abuse by just leading the defender past every other enemy in 30ft and let them attack of opportunity it to death
I agree. That’s just normal tactics. Heck, as a DM if the enemies are intelligent I use those sorts of tactics against my players.
I'm currently playing as an 18th level Battlesmith Artificer in a 1-20 campaign; she's actually the only member of the original party too.
Across all tiers, I used the steel defender to bolster my defenses via deflect attacks and take some hits that someone else could have taken; they also make decent pack mules. Another thing to note is that they cannot be surprised and have expertise in perception, so they can spot danger for the group. Right now, the steel defender has the highest perception in the party with a +12.
Early on, it is also decent for the extra bit of damage it does. Though one thing to note is that my DM allows me to perform Shoves and Grapples with my steel defender. Tier 2, it is still decent for the extra bit of damage and it can still take a good number of hits, but only having 15 AC can make it feel fragile. Tier 3 and 4, its low durability definitely is noticable, even after gettings its AC boosted. Extra damage is extra damage (including on deflect attack) but it is not too noticable. Still great for a pack mule. One thing my DM let me do was to build vocal cords for it as I had it attune to a Headband of Intellect that I infused, thus allowing it to fluently speak which has been rather useful with its expertise in Perception. Rather, it is useful to have magic items that require an action to use, especially if they require attunement, which does add some additional offensive options if you give it wands, staves, or ring of spell storing. The steel defender also combos well with the spell storing item, effectively letting you case the spell stored in it as a bonus action through your steel defender. Also, if the spell requires Concentration, it would be the steel defender concentrating and the steel defender does have proficiency in con saves.
You :"Sure you can lead the defender past every other enemy in 30ft. That's perfectly reasonable and smart of the enemy"
Also you: "if your reaction as a DM is to 1up your players then you're a terrible DM"
So is it reasonable and smart or is a a bad DM that had a dm vs player mindset?
We are literally only talking about 1 thing, by definition can't be a difference.
That one thing is:
"If I was your DM I would 1up your mechanics abuse by just leading the defender past every other enemy in 30ft and let them attack of opportunity it to death"
So is it smart and viable or is it bad DMing? Is intent the only distinction?
So, first I think it’s kind of absurd to suggest using your Steel Defender to defend you against ranged attack in this way is “abuse.” It’s literally just using the game mechanics in a manner consistent with their intended use.
But on the proposed DM retaliation against a player for using tactics, that won’t work well. If the enemy goes from A to B, the Defender does not have to follow the same path. It only needs to go from right next to A to right next to B. And it has 40 feet of movement to do so.
How come you consider using this attack of opportunity mechanic as retaliation, and not "just using the game mechanics in a manner consistent with their intended use"?
In a vacuum I don’t. Earlier a poster called the Steel Defender tactic “abuse” and talked about how he would punish such abuse.The ‘retaliation’ description was directed at the mindset, not the action itself.
Except that the SD can't. If the SD readied an action to run after a ranged opponent, that uses up their reaction for that round. They don't have a reaction left to get an opportunity attack, meaning the ranged opponent can just walk away with no retaliation.