Tool Expertise isn't a thing in 2024 so the Level 6 class feature will need to be replaced.
Yes and no. You're right that Tool Expertise isn't a thing in 2024 but the wording of the Tool Expertise class feature on the Artificer doesn't require you to be able to get capital E Expertise with a tool for it to function.
It simply states
Your proficiency bonus is now doubled for any ability check you make that uses your proficiency with a tool.
Which can be run in the 2024 rules directly. It just doesn't combo with anything that might list "Expertise" as a prerequisite since Expertise is defined in terms of Skill proficiency only.
Tool Expertise isn't a thing in 2024 so the Level 6 class feature will need to be replaced.
Yes and no. You're right that Tool Expertise isn't a thing in 2024 but the wording of the Tool Expertise class feature on the Artificer doesn't require you to be able to get capital E Expertise with a tool for it to function.
True, but for consistency, I would expect it to go away if revised this edition.
I don't see anytying that would actually need to change to use an artificer. They are probably just going to feel weak since every class got buffed overall and artificers weren't exactly super powerful 5e.
-You'd need to use updated spells -You'd probably want to add weapon masteries to battlesmith and armorer -I'd probably give them the crafter origin feat for free just to keep the theme
I'd warn players that alchemist and artillerist is going to feel pretty weak
Tool Expertise isn't a thing in 2024 so the Level 6 class feature will need to be replaced.
College of Valor Bard is similar to Battle Smith or Armorer and doesn't get Weapon Mastery so I don't think Artificer would when/if updated. The current trend is the class gets it at level 1 or never.
As an aside, Magical Tinkering is basically a collection of cantrips and could probably be replaced with the Wizard's cantrip feature, but it's not necessarily. Also, based on the changes to Warlock, we could see infusions bumped up to a level 1 feature with 2 known and 1 infused item.
But the Valor Bard does get the cantrip as an attack feature like Eldritch Knight. I wonder if it might make sense for Armorer / Battle Master to get it as well?
I don't see anytying that would actually need to change to use an artificer. They are probably just going to feel weak since every class got buffed overall and artificers weren't exactly super powerful 5e.
-You'd need to use updated spells -You'd probably want to add weapon masteries to battlesmith and armorer -I'd probably give them the crafter origin feat for free just to keep the theme
I'd warn players that alchemist and artillerist is going to feel pretty weak
Tool Expertise isn't a thing in 2024 so the Level 6 class feature will need to be replaced.
College of Valor Bard is similar to Battle Smith or Armorer and doesn't get Weapon Mastery so I don't think Artificer would when/if updated. The current trend is the class gets it at level 1 or never.
As an aside, Magical Tinkering is basically a collection of cantrips and could probably be replaced with the Wizard's cantrip feature, but it's not necessarily. Also, based on the changes to Warlock, we could see infusions bumped up to a level 1 feature with 2 known and 1 infused item.
But the Valor Bard does get the cantrip as an attack feature like Eldritch Knight. I wonder if it might make sense for Armorer / Battle Master to get it as well?
Yes, some thoughts I had for potential changes were:
Infusions start at level 1 with 2 known and 1 infused item, similar to Warlock. Would need to prune list to select options appropriate for level vs limited to level 2.
Prepared spells follow the Paladin/Ranger/Warlock progression.
Break out Ritual Casting from the Spellcasting feature.
Potentially change Magical Tinkering to the Rock Gnome feature and add Mending as a known Cantrip.
Right Tool for the job: Change to proficiency with all artisan tools?
Level 5: Maybe conjure artisan tools in five minutes (instead of an hour)?
Remove Tool Expertise
Level 6 Subclass: Armorer and Battle Master can replace a Cantrip with an attack. Alchemist and Artillerist maybe get an extra Cantrip known (Artillerist potentially limited to attack Cantrips)?
Level 19: Replace ASI with Epic Boon.
Some are obvious (ASI to Epic Boon). Others are unlikely (Right Tool for the Job changes). If all of the changes were applied, I don't think it would be broken or anything, but I am trying to overshoot and pull back anything that's problematic and I think I am probably still being too conservative.
I don't see anytying that would actually need to change to use an artificer. They are probably just going to feel weak since every class got buffed overall and artificers weren't exactly super powerful 5e.
-You'd need to use updated spells -You'd probably want to add weapon masteries to battlesmith and armorer -I'd probably give them the crafter origin feat for free just to keep the theme
I'd warn players that alchemist and artillerist is going to feel pretty weak
Tool Expertise isn't a thing in 2024 so the Level 6 class feature will need to be replaced.
College of Valor Bard is similar to Battle Smith or Armorer and doesn't get Weapon Mastery so I don't think Artificer would when/if updated. The current trend is the class gets it at level 1 or never.
As an aside, Magical Tinkering is basically a collection of cantrips and could probably be replaced with the Wizard's cantrip feature, but it's not necessarily. Also, based on the changes to Warlock, we could see infusions bumped up to a level 1 feature with 2 known and 1 infused item.
Bards are full casters a artificer is a half caster so they are closer to paladins than bards.
College of Valor Bard is similar to Battle Smith or Armorer and doesn't get Weapon Mastery so I don't think Artificer would when/if updated. The current trend is the class gets it at level 1 or never.
Bards are full casters a artificer is a half caster so they are closer to paladins than bards.
Bards are full casters, yes. College of Valor brings them closer to a martial similar to how a Bladesinger does so for a Wizard.
Artificers are "half casters", but the other half isn't martial like a Paladin or Ranger. It's closer to an Arcane Trickster Rogue. However, as a class, Artificers aren't weapon oriented; they are item oriented. I don't see any justification for weapon mastery in the Base Artificer Class. The College of Valor Bard is the only opportunity that I can think of for a sub class to grant weapon masteries and it doesn't. Thus, while the Battle Smith and Armorer are more weapon oriented than the base class, the limited precedence in the 2024 PHB suggests that they will not gain a weapon mastery either.
That's my personal assessment. Until then, feel free to add masteries if you feel otherwise. Who knows how long we have to wait for an official stance from WotC.
Make the scaling of dmg from the armorer Thunder gauntlets better? it feels punishing to use them at higher lvl and it sucks that most epic Bosses at high lvl can ignore spells up to lvl 5 which the artificer caps on. Maybe get the to a higher spells slot and give them the eldritch treatment to replace one attack with cantrip plus spruce up those infusions, they could be more interesting than just choosing between like four of them and magic item.
I saw an article that showed how a new 2024 artificer. Could shoot 28 fireballs per turn. Seems a bit op IMHO.
I suspect that is with a interesting reading of the rules. That being said their craft item feature would allow them to load up on wands etc and fire off fairly solid spells round after round. That has more to do with wands/staves are poorly designed imo, the charges per day mechanic is too good. A wand of fireballs pretty much means every round you'd cast a cantrip as an attack you instead fireball which is already too good. You have a wand of fireballs, wand of lightning bolts a enspelled weapon of x and you are just spamming spells every round.
I saw an article that showed how a new 2024 artificer. Could shoot 28 fireballs per turn. Seems a bit op IMHO.
Some people have theorycrafted that possibility, for a level 19+ Artillerist. Not per turn, per DAY, which is rather different.
I mean, at this tier, characters are indeed super powerful. A wizard also has 15 level 3+ spell slots in this tier and can do things like Overchannel to force max damage.
The cost is that you can't do anything else. Your wizard might have better things to do with those high level spell slots, but at least can change them. To follow this theorycrafting plan, all your Artificer could do all day with those slots is cast fireball, and that decision is set in stone at the end of a long rest. When was the last time you even took 28 turns in a day?
Yes, you can give the items to someone else, and then they're casting fireball instead of doing other things they could do. Which again, they could have also done by being a wizard.
Yes, you could give the spell-storing item to your Homunculus, if you have one (as you could before, limited to a 2nd level spell). Worst case this is just like having one more (rather one-dimensional) party member, and one that is very squishy at that.
As your DM, if it annoys me, all I have to do to neutralize your plan of Infinite Fireball is give you a map of narrow corridors or an enemy horde of fire elementals. On the other hand, if you just want to fling fireball every turn, so what? I just plan for it.
I play Artificer because I like being able to make tactical choices around different ways to deal damage and also healing and supporting the party when needed. The spell-storing item is amazing but having to pick the spell in advance and having only that one spell in it substantially restricts the utility - it's really not the same power as a spell slot you can use with your whole spell list. I'd rather give myself a wider range of items and options.
I'm not convinced there's really something that needs fixed. It's a big power bump gaining Spell Storing Item when it's gained because it's easy to have 20 INT by then, but a large number of low level spells isn't as powerful as the number of 4th-9th level spells on a full caster.
Using all the plans on spellcasting items and the SSI on Fireball is not using them for other things and a lot of lower level spells isn't overpowered given the lack of high level spells.
I'm not convinced there's really something that needs fixed. It's a big power bump gaining Spell Storing Item when it's gained because it's easy to have 20 INT by then, but a large number of low level spells isn't as powerful as the number of 4th-9th level spells on a full caster.
Using all the plans on spellcasting items and the SSI on Fireball is not using them for other things and a lot of lower level spells isn't overpowered given the lack of high level spells.
This plus won't the replicated magic items be throwing out Fireballs with the saves of a 5th level caster against CR 19+ enemies? The saves will be common and the Fire damage is a commonly resisted damage type. In addition, the challenges at this level will likely be able to deal with a Homunculus or Familiar trying use this to get extra damage per turn if it were to be the most problematic target in the group.
If a DM has to change the game to deal with specific classes then the design is broken IMHO.
What if everyone is playing a prepackaged module?
Yeah I could try to forbid a RAW class but that would just start a fight at the table. Normally we have a rule that RAW wins an argument so this would increase malicious metagaming.
I also disagree that casting 28 3rd level spells is not as powerful as casting 3 8th level spells.
If a DM has to change the game to deal with specific classes then the design is broken IMHO.
What if everyone is playing a prepackaged module?
Yeah I could try to forbid a RAW class but that would just start a fight at the table. Normally we have a rule that RAW wins an argument so this would increase malicious metagaming.
I also disagree that casting 28 3rd level spells is not as powerful as casting 3 8th level spells.
I mean, issues of balance happen all the time especially at 19th level. *Are* there modules where the characters are at 19th level? Ones that haven't accounted for the absolutely legendary power PCs have at that point?
I've yet to have an adventuring day with 28 turns in it and only occasionally as many as 14. (I tend to use a lot of healing on those days!) Those 8th level spell slots come with a lot of slots between 3 and 8, don't forget. And 3 8th level turns is a good way to avoid having 28 turns. :-)
Not really seeing how this is any different from having a 4th tier level Wizard with a handful of very desirable magic items, as would be typical at that level.
The action economy and the limits on how many items you can attune remain powerful checks on these theorycrafted scenarios. If you're not convinced, try a test game yourself.
It doesn't have to be 28 turns. The artificer could give out multiple wands and rings. A battle could be over in a single turn. Everyone in the party could have a familiar also equipped with a wand.
5 characters 5 familiars a homunculus that's 11 wands firing every turn. Everyone also has a ring of spell storing with find familiar in it.or other helpful spells.
It doesn't have to be 28 turns. The artificer could give out multiple wands and rings. A battle could be over in a single turn. Everyone in the party could have a familiar also equipped with a wand.
5 characters 5 familiars a homunculus that's 11 wands firing every turn. Everyone also has a ring of spell storing with find familiar in it.or other helpful spells.
Even an artificer at 20th level can't replicate 11 wands and can't replicate 2 spell storing rings at the same time. For wands of fireball, the UA Artificer is limited to 3 at a time, but 2 at a time if replicating a ring of spell storing.
It doesn't have to be 28 turns. The artificer could give out multiple wands and rings. A battle could be over in a single turn. Everyone in the party could have a familiar also equipped with a wand.
5 characters 5 familiars a homunculus that's 11 wands firing every turn. Everyone also has a ring of spell storing with find familiar in it.or other helpful spells.
Not everyone in the party is going to have a familiar, and not everyone in the party is going to be capable of using a wand of fireballs; but any major spellcaster with the appropriate build can make those wands during downtime too.
Each item you create must be based on a different plan you know.
At their maximum, artificers have 6 different items from plans no two of which can be the same; plus the Spell Storing Item. Your scenario is handing out too many items.
From your previous comment, it's not "three 8th level spells" to compare. It's approximately 7 high level spells compared to numerous low level spells, and additional spell options. Sorcerers have font of magic and metamagic, for example; and wizards have arcane recovery and spell mastery. Warlocks are still casting fourteen 5th level slots with typical resting, many at-will spells, and four mystic arcanum at that level.
"Going out of my way with unreasonable assumptions" to make lots of low level spells still isn't overpowered. It could use a more gradual flow maybe but it's still not too much.
EDIT: the UA is also 8 plans known, 6 items created from them
Yes and no. You're right that Tool Expertise isn't a thing in 2024 but the wording of the Tool Expertise class feature on the Artificer doesn't require you to be able to get capital E Expertise with a tool for it to function.
It simply states
Which can be run in the 2024 rules directly. It just doesn't combo with anything that might list "Expertise" as a prerequisite since Expertise is defined in terms of Skill proficiency only.
True, but for consistency, I would expect it to go away if revised this edition.
How to add Tooltips.
But the Valor Bard does get the cantrip as an attack feature like Eldritch Knight. I wonder if it might make sense for Armorer / Battle Master to get it as well?
Yes, some thoughts I had for potential changes were:
Some are obvious (ASI to Epic Boon). Others are unlikely (Right Tool for the Job changes). If all of the changes were applied, I don't think it would be broken or anything, but I am trying to overshoot and pull back anything that's problematic and I think I am probably still being too conservative.
How to add Tooltips.
Bards are full casters a artificer is a half caster so they are closer to paladins than bards.
Bards are full casters, yes. College of Valor brings them closer to a martial similar to how a Bladesinger does so for a Wizard.
Artificers are "half casters", but the other half isn't martial like a Paladin or Ranger. It's closer to an Arcane Trickster Rogue. However, as a class, Artificers aren't weapon oriented; they are item oriented. I don't see any justification for weapon mastery in the Base Artificer Class. The College of Valor Bard is the only opportunity that I can think of for a sub class to grant weapon masteries and it doesn't. Thus, while the Battle Smith and Armorer are more weapon oriented than the base class, the limited precedence in the 2024 PHB suggests that they will not gain a weapon mastery either.
That's my personal assessment. Until then, feel free to add masteries if you feel otherwise. Who knows how long we have to wait for an official stance from WotC.
How to add Tooltips.
Make the scaling of dmg from the armorer Thunder gauntlets better? it feels punishing to use them at higher lvl and it sucks that most epic Bosses at high lvl can ignore spells up to lvl 5 which the artificer caps on. Maybe get the to a higher spells slot and give them the eldritch treatment to replace one attack with cantrip plus spruce up those infusions, they could be more interesting than just choosing between like four of them and magic item.
I have a compleate overhall of the arteficer for you, that would fit evry setting in my opinion
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/zk8ay72w9tht4gpt5wu5n/mein-finaler-UA-arteficer.pdf?rlkey=2w59jokpego2ep7f73sqlw645&st=dahmpapo&dl=0
I saw an article that showed how a new 2024 artificer. Could shoot 28 fireballs per turn. Seems a bit op IMHO.
I suspect that is with a interesting reading of the rules. That being said their craft item feature would allow them to load up on wands etc and fire off fairly solid spells round after round. That has more to do with wands/staves are poorly designed imo, the charges per day mechanic is too good. A wand of fireballs pretty much means every round you'd cast a cantrip as an attack you instead fireball which is already too good. You have a wand of fireballs, wand of lightning bolts a enspelled weapon of x and you are just spamming spells every round.
Some people have theorycrafted that possibility, for a level 19+ Artillerist. Not per turn, per DAY, which is rather different.
I mean, at this tier, characters are indeed super powerful. A wizard also has 15 level 3+ spell slots in this tier and can do things like Overchannel to force max damage.
The cost is that you can't do anything else. Your wizard might have better things to do with those high level spell slots, but at least can change them. To follow this theorycrafting plan, all your Artificer could do all day with those slots is cast fireball, and that decision is set in stone at the end of a long rest. When was the last time you even took 28 turns in a day?
Yes, you can give the items to someone else, and then they're casting fireball instead of doing other things they could do. Which again, they could have also done by being a wizard.
Yes, you could give the spell-storing item to your Homunculus, if you have one (as you could before, limited to a 2nd level spell). Worst case this is just like having one more (rather one-dimensional) party member, and one that is very squishy at that.
As your DM, if it annoys me, all I have to do to neutralize your plan of Infinite Fireball is give you a map of narrow corridors or an enemy horde of fire elementals. On the other hand, if you just want to fling fireball every turn, so what? I just plan for it.
I play Artificer because I like being able to make tactical choices around different ways to deal damage and also healing and supporting the party when needed. The spell-storing item is amazing but having to pick the spell in advance and having only that one spell in it substantially restricts the utility - it's really not the same power as a spell slot you can use with your whole spell list. I'd rather give myself a wider range of items and options.
Well there is still time to fix this which is why I posted.
I'm not convinced there's really something that needs fixed. It's a big power bump gaining Spell Storing Item when it's gained because it's easy to have 20 INT by then, but a large number of low level spells isn't as powerful as the number of 4th-9th level spells on a full caster.
Using all the plans on spellcasting items and the SSI on Fireball is not using them for other things and a lot of lower level spells isn't overpowered given the lack of high level spells.
This plus won't the replicated magic items be throwing out Fireballs with the saves of a 5th level caster against CR 19+ enemies? The saves will be common and the Fire damage is a commonly resisted damage type. In addition, the challenges at this level will likely be able to deal with a Homunculus or Familiar trying use this to get extra damage per turn if it were to be the most problematic target in the group.
How to add Tooltips.
If a DM has to change the game to deal with specific classes then the design is broken IMHO.
What if everyone is playing a prepackaged module?
Yeah I could try to forbid a RAW class but that would just start a fight at the table. Normally we have a rule that RAW wins an argument so this would increase malicious metagaming.
I also disagree that casting 28 3rd level spells is not as powerful as casting 3 8th level spells.
I mean, issues of balance happen all the time especially at 19th level. *Are* there modules where the characters are at 19th level? Ones that haven't accounted for the absolutely legendary power PCs have at that point?
I've yet to have an adventuring day with 28 turns in it and only occasionally as many as 14. (I tend to use a lot of healing on those days!) Those 8th level spell slots come with a lot of slots between 3 and 8, don't forget. And 3 8th level turns is a good way to avoid having 28 turns. :-)
Not really seeing how this is any different from having a 4th tier level Wizard with a handful of very desirable magic items, as would be typical at that level.
The action economy and the limits on how many items you can attune remain powerful checks on these theorycrafted scenarios. If you're not convinced, try a test game yourself.
It doesn't have to be 28 turns. The artificer could give out multiple wands and rings. A battle could be over in a single turn. Everyone in the party could have a familiar also equipped with a wand.
5 characters 5 familiars a homunculus that's 11 wands firing every turn. Everyone also has a ring of spell storing with find familiar in it.or other helpful spells.
Even an artificer at 20th level can't replicate 11 wands and can't replicate 2 spell storing rings at the same time. For wands of fireball, the UA Artificer is limited to 3 at a time, but 2 at a time if replicating a ring of spell storing.
How to add Tooltips.
The UA I read said 8 items at 20th level. You can pass the items around. Still to OP IMHO.
Not everyone in the party is going to have a familiar, and not everyone in the party is going to be capable of using a wand of fireballs; but any major spellcaster with the appropriate build can make those wands during downtime too.
At their maximum, artificers have 6 different items from plans no two of which can be the same; plus the Spell Storing Item. Your scenario is handing out too many items.
From your previous comment, it's not "three 8th level spells" to compare. It's approximately 7 high level spells compared to numerous low level spells, and additional spell options. Sorcerers have font of magic and metamagic, for example; and wizards have arcane recovery and spell mastery. Warlocks are still casting fourteen 5th level slots with typical resting, many at-will spells, and four mystic arcanum at that level.
"Going out of my way with unreasonable assumptions" to make lots of low level spells still isn't overpowered. It could use a more gradual flow maybe but it's still not too much.
EDIT: the UA is also 8 plans known, 6 items created from them