Heyo. I'm curious what other alchemists tend to do during combat? I feel like so far its mostly ended up being "cantrip spam" which isn't very narriive interesting. I've noticed as I play more. Alchemists abilities (and artificer in general) are very passive abilities. You make otehrs better-which I love as I don't want to be the Main Character, I want to be the Side Character. But that doesn't mean I don't get a bit bored in combat. It seems like you don't have enough cantrips to diversify things either - much less having utility cantrips. (real shame you don't get chill touch or toll the dead. Because that would give you more interplay in the intitive/combat situation. Deny healing or take advantage of another's attack to combo. Can get via wizard but then it wont' coutn for level 5 ability due to the wording of having to use the Tool focus- but you can only use the focus for artificer spells.
So it seems like I make a few elixir, hand them out, then end up saving few slots for emergency healing, or the once in a while Rray of Sick or Acid Arrow. Where as when I was playing artificer, I got a lot of interplay with the Turret position , turret blasting etc. Battle Smith got the multi attacks-which is exciting because missing once doesn't mean I did 0 for the whole turn.
So, what do other alchemists do that gives them options or cool things to do? Like what you do during your turn other than cantriping with the occasional healing or attack spell? Or do you just drop all utility cantrips so you can rock a spell attack roll and a save spell? (if so which?) or drop cantrips and rock 1 hit per round?
I've been eye balling Rogue Thief 3. Since it woudl give me bonus actions to use for movement, or item use (hunting trap, caltrops, ball bearings, acid/alch flasks). Also gives me 2d6 sneak attack. Which I could use with a Sling for decent damage. Consistantly so with UA's Aim cunning action. or sunsoul monk 3 for Laser Beams + some speed and less armour for easier carry weight issues So.. i'd love to hear what other folks do~ I love its support but it gets a tad boring
Certainly feels like it lends itself to needing a dip for narritive power.
Sun Soul monk 3 for laser beams that can spam a few times and restores the spam on short rest seem fun.
Rogue 3 + Sling (or hand xbow I guess) can be decent fun. Get to add sneak attack to it, and bonus actions for fun. I like Sling because I can fluff Alchemical doodad slinging and I feel like bashing is a less used damage type.
Thief for Item Use as a bonus action seems most in line. Particularly if you have profiency in Alch weapons and have a steady supply of acid/alch fire. Then it "feels neat" at least. Oddly. Alch 9 or 11, and warlock seems the most interesting in terms of driving elixir usage. Since I'm sure that Coffee-Chemist has popped up a lot already.
Well I might luck out later and they'll make an Infusion for Alchemists that is like the old UA's Alchemist's Satchel. That thing was great for giving interesting options. (though acid/alch fire should've been a attack not a save). Something like a bonus action to make the item, then I could throw it, painful bad action economy though but the options were very fun and had some nice utilty.
Honestly if they were looking to eratta the class. since elixirs have 0 scaling with spell levels. It would be neat if they just added the old satchel as a class feature. At least hte Alch Fire, Acid, Thunderstone, Tanglefoot options it had. The first two being Attack roll the latter saves. Count as tools for the class features. Give profiency in them, and make the ranges 60, make it a ranged weapon attack using Int not dex. Like when you use magic stones in a sling. (or jus a spell attack roll though that causes weird interactions) but I mention that too much at this point anyway.
I dunno. I had to turn my Alchemist into a Battlesmith when Eberron Rising released, and ended up mostly reinventing the character from the ground up because the stock Alchemist is that bad. Haven't had a chance to do anymuch playtesting on my Revised Alchemist, but if I did I imagine the Revised Alchemist would principally fight like the old 2019UA Alchemist did - Alchemical Homunculus harassing things while the Alchemist herself does whatever seems most helpful at the time. Prolly a significant amount of Acid Spraying, since Arcane Assault died when the UA did.
Post level 6 it might end up being that if one doesnt' dip for options. use infusion on humuculus. spam Help action with it, fire cantrips (or singular weapon if one went with utility). Though I persoanlly am not a fan of having a pet/familiar which is one reason the dips are tempting. Sure I probably might be more effective just spamming cantrips and using Help to make the big hitter hit harder. But doesn't afford you player moments really.
Feel like perhaps Artificer 3+Warlock, or certain other caster classes might prove to be a more effective one--in terms of the concept of Alchemist. (Infusions, spell item, and attunement stuff of core artificer is still super nice). Warlock 1-3 and Rogue (Theif) 2-3 then Alchemist feel like they are perhaps the most entertaining mash up if you were starting at higher levels already Effectively awarding you a large prep amount of elixirs to hand out in the morning/as the day goes on, lots of utility cantrip choices, little sneak attack to mix with things. Rogue 3, warlock 1, Artificer would probably have the best mix of "alchemist user". Warlock being Celestial or Hexblade. Celestial nets you 2(minimum) weak healing words-like ability uses (effectively extra spells), hexblade short rest damage booster (For your limited hit attempts). Celestial is more likely to me. Maybe 2dip if there was an evocation I wanted-which there isn't for my character. (Its honestly purely for cantrips, renewable slot, free bonus action healing). warlock messes the heck out of the fluff though for me. but i've never enjoyed the god/deamon god/celestial entity story angles. Also way too many dips for me to play from level 1.
I was thinking maybe 3 levels of Artificer alchemits and then wizard from then on, At least then both classes use INT. Or maybe Eldritch Knight instead of wizard.
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Watch your back, conserve your ammo, and NEVER cut a deal with a dragon!
I mean depending on he game levl 6 can take a while. And as for healing word...not many, particularly if you want to give out elixirs.
humculus is actually not terribly useful. Though if you stick it in teh big brawler's pocket, then you could use your bonus action to pew pew with it to give the brawler guy Advantage (or the rogue guy maybe), as well as being able to cast cure wounds through it to them instead of healing word. But that also requires lucky inititive timing.
I've played an Artificer Alchemist since the original UA version, and have worked with my GM to come up with homebrewed version of the final release Alchemist from Eberron. I swapped out Experimental Elixir to keep the original Alchemists Satchel from the first Alchemist, among a few other changes. So during combat my character uses acid for single target, aoe alchemists fire for more than one, thunderstones to help control positioning/deal with flying monsters, and healing flasks boosted with healing word when people need it. For regular spell bonus actions I like throwing out flaming sphere for area denial, or expeditious retreat to kite melee combatants. I also play a centaur so I tend to taxi the parties squishier ranged characters around the battlefield as well.
Though they probably should've chosen different names if they were gong to work oddly. I think I'd actually prefer Acid the item and Alch fire the item. (though with initial damage not -no damage until their turn.. just weird). Well I also just like having saves and attack roll abilities.
I think making him a half caster was a big mistake
the battle smith is equivalent to a paladin so it make sense but the alchemist is a healer without the druid/cleric healing power
saying that he get great healing feats is bs because all healers get great healing feats so he doesn't really catches up with the other healers
and without "spiritual guardians" and/or bonus action damage like "spiritual weapon" or what the other artificer have he can't be a good tank so he might as well spam cantrips in the back while setting up a juice bar
I converted my alchemist, got annoyed at the lack of anything to do besides healing word and cantrip and switched to a monk. I'm still really wanting to play an alchemist, but there the healer subclass that can't heal.
They get the 5 notable healing/support spells (Healing word, cure wounds, lesser restoration, greater restoration and heal). A cleric or druid gets all that and are still full casters and have their class abilities (wildshape, domain spells, channel divinity, etc.). Those are the alchemist's abilities, there isn't enough else especially if your infusions are being used as support as well. If you use your infusions for your weapon you only get one attack and in a party that needs magic weapons its better to give it to a multiattack character or a rogue. The enhanced arcane focus is a trap for an alchemist, sure it helps with melf's acid arrow and ray of sickness but those are limited resources that means you won't have them to heal. If they were a full caster that wouldn't be an issue.
Hm. I thinnk if we were moding it. I'd enroll Elixirs into ALchemist Satchel. Retain 1 free random one, and the ability to make them with spells. Then have Acid and Alch fire work like the actual items-except with profiency (either ranged attack or spell attack). Also scale the damage as you level up-extra die per X levels maybe. (and maybe use the chance to clear up the Alch Fire's oddity of "no damage until their next turn). Keep Thunderstone and Tanglefoot as Save DCs. (Prone or knock back is nice, as is restrained or dificult terrain (I'd prefer restrained over the terrain, but thats because I don't think that small amount of terrain change is worth actions very long) Keep the 1/day per person Alchemnical Salve healing thingy.
Combining the current Elixirs and giving them these options I think would suppliment the ability to be a half caster support/healer sort of thing. It gives solid free per person healing per day, gives damaging options--one straight up and one a lesser Dot. Gives support/debuffing actions, and you get to choose spelsl vs elixirs, without losing options. Effectively you can hand out the 1/day healing salve/potions from the Satchel, then actively choose later if ya'll need more elixirs, or a healing word choice. or the buffs, or if you want some attack spells today. Also means you could use Cantrips for narritive things. Mending, guidiance etc. (Would still want Chill TOuch added though)
Well also make it the Focus Item for the class, so thats what gives them spell bonus at level5, could also tie the damage boosts to level 5 and scale them with canttrips for ease.
Like that would be an exciting class narritive that felt helpful, unique niche. Not a full healer, but a fair "gap fill" class that can do a lot of things al itle bit.
Though I suppose its unlikely to be re-added to the class a nd I've not really found any homebrew okay games.
As an Alchemist? I've pondered dipping fighter. (3 into Arcane ARcher specifically.. but I kindi of love the short rest-reseting abilities.. Though it would require the GM to let me use it with Slings or Blowgun. Because that fits alchemist flavor so well).
How do you tend to play the tanking?
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Heyo. I'm curious what other alchemists tend to do during combat? I feel like so far its mostly ended up being "cantrip spam" which isn't very narriive interesting.
I've noticed as I play more. Alchemists abilities (and artificer in general) are very passive abilities. You make otehrs better-which I love as I don't want to be the Main Character, I want to be the Side Character. But that doesn't mean I don't get a bit bored in combat. It seems like you don't have enough cantrips to diversify things either - much less having utility cantrips. (real shame you don't get chill touch or toll the dead. Because that would give you more interplay in the intitive/combat situation. Deny healing or take advantage of another's attack to combo. Can get via wizard but then it wont' coutn for level 5 ability due to the wording of having to use the Tool focus- but you can only use the focus for artificer spells.
So it seems like I make a few elixir, hand them out, then end up saving few slots for emergency healing, or the once in a while Rray of Sick or Acid Arrow. Where as when I was playing artificer, I got a lot of interplay with the Turret position , turret blasting etc. Battle Smith got the multi attacks-which is exciting because missing once doesn't mean I did 0 for the whole turn.
So, what do other alchemists do that gives them options or cool things to do?
Like what you do during your turn other than cantriping with the occasional healing or attack spell?
Or do you just drop all utility cantrips so you can rock a spell attack roll and a save spell? (if so which?)
or drop cantrips and rock 1 hit per round?
I've been eye balling Rogue Thief 3. Since it woudl give me bonus actions to use for movement, or item use (hunting trap, caltrops, ball bearings, acid/alch flasks). Also gives me 2d6 sneak attack. Which I could use with a Sling for decent damage. Consistantly so with UA's Aim cunning action.
or sunsoul monk 3 for Laser Beams + some speed and less armour for easier carry weight issues
So.. i'd love to hear what other folks do~
I love its support but it gets a tad boring
Good question!
Even Treatmonk has been doubtful of putting together a single class Artificer alchemist at this point. :)
Watch your back, conserve your ammo,
and NEVER cut a deal with a dragon!
Certainly feels like it lends itself to needing a dip for narritive power.
Sun Soul monk 3 for laser beams that can spam a few times and restores the spam on short rest seem fun.
Rogue 3 + Sling (or hand xbow I guess) can be decent fun. Get to add sneak attack to it, and bonus actions for fun. I like Sling because I can fluff Alchemical doodad slinging and I feel like bashing is a less used damage type.
Thief for Item Use as a bonus action seems most in line. Particularly if you have profiency in Alch weapons and have a steady supply of acid/alch fire. Then it "feels neat" at least. Oddly. Alch 9 or 11, and warlock seems the most interesting in terms of driving elixir usage. Since I'm sure that Coffee-Chemist has popped up a lot already.
Well I might luck out later and they'll make an Infusion for Alchemists that is like the old UA's Alchemist's Satchel. That thing was great for giving interesting options. (though acid/alch fire should've been a attack not a save). Something like a bonus action to make the item, then I could throw it, painful bad action economy though but the options were very fun and had some nice utilty.
Honestly if they were looking to eratta the class. since elixirs have 0 scaling with spell levels. It would be neat if they just added the old satchel as a class feature. At least hte Alch Fire, Acid, Thunderstone, Tanglefoot options it had. The first two being Attack roll the latter saves. Count as tools for the class features. Give profiency in them, and make the ranges 60, make it a ranged weapon attack using Int not dex. Like when you use magic stones in a sling. (or jus a spell attack roll though that causes weird interactions)
but I mention that too much at this point anyway.
I dunno. I had to turn my Alchemist into a Battlesmith when Eberron Rising released, and ended up mostly reinventing the character from the ground up because the stock Alchemist is that bad. Haven't had a chance to do anymuch playtesting on my Revised Alchemist, but if I did I imagine the Revised Alchemist would principally fight like the old 2019UA Alchemist did - Alchemical Homunculus harassing things while the Alchemist herself does whatever seems most helpful at the time. Prolly a significant amount of Acid Spraying, since Arcane Assault died when the UA did.
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I am currently doing the same since eberron came out. Turning my alchemist into a Battle Smith.
Post level 6 it might end up being that if one doesnt' dip for options. use infusion on humuculus. spam Help action with it, fire cantrips (or singular weapon if one went with utility). Though I persoanlly am not a fan of having a pet/familiar which is one reason the dips are tempting. Sure I probably might be more effective just spamming cantrips and using Help to make the big hitter hit harder. But doesn't afford you player moments really.
Feel like perhaps Artificer 3+Warlock, or certain other caster classes might prove to be a more effective one--in terms of the concept of Alchemist. (Infusions, spell item, and attunement stuff of core artificer is still super nice). Warlock 1-3 and Rogue (Theif) 2-3 then Alchemist feel like they are perhaps the most entertaining mash up if you were starting at higher levels already Effectively awarding you a large prep amount of elixirs to hand out in the morning/as the day goes on, lots of utility cantrip choices, little sneak attack to mix with things. Rogue 3, warlock 1, Artificer would probably have the best mix of "alchemist user". Warlock being Celestial or Hexblade. Celestial nets you 2(minimum) weak healing words-like ability uses (effectively extra spells), hexblade short rest damage booster (For your limited hit attempts). Celestial is more likely to me. Maybe 2dip if there was an evocation I wanted-which there isn't for my character. (Its honestly purely for cantrips, renewable slot, free bonus action healing). warlock messes the heck out of the fluff though for me. but i've never enjoyed the god/deamon god/celestial entity story angles.
Also way too many dips for me to play from level 1.
I was thinking maybe 3 levels of Artificer alchemits and then wizard from then on, At least then both classes use INT. Or maybe Eldritch Knight instead of wizard.
Watch your back, conserve your ammo,
and NEVER cut a deal with a dragon!
Yeah thats qutie true. Though in general you don't have much of those spell slots very often sadly. But it certainly helps a lot~
The Alchemist does get Healing Word, so there is a use of his Bonus Action. Plus he can take a Homonculous if he wants.
Watch your back, conserve your ammo,
and NEVER cut a deal with a dragon!
I mean depending on he game levl 6 can take a while. And as for healing word...not many, particularly if you want to give out elixirs.
humculus is actually not terribly useful. Though if you stick it in teh big brawler's pocket, then you could use your bonus action to pew pew with it to give the brawler guy Advantage (or the rogue guy maybe), as well as being able to cast cure wounds through it to them instead of healing word. But that also requires lucky inititive timing.
I've played an Artificer Alchemist since the original UA version, and have worked with my GM to come up with homebrewed version of the final release Alchemist from Eberron. I swapped out Experimental Elixir to keep the original Alchemists Satchel from the first Alchemist, among a few other changes. So during combat my character uses acid for single target, aoe alchemists fire for more than one, thunderstones to help control positioning/deal with flying monsters, and healing flasks boosted with healing word when people need it. For regular spell bonus actions I like throwing out flaming sphere for area denial, or expeditious retreat to kite melee combatants. I also play a centaur so I tend to taxi the parties squishier ranged characters around the battlefield as well.
I would really enjoy the Satchel.
Though they probably should've chosen different names if they were gong to work oddly. I think I'd actually prefer Acid the item and Alch fire the item. (though with initial damage not -no damage until their turn.. just weird). Well I also just like having saves and attack roll abilities.
"Alchemists! What do you tend to do during combat?"
Cry, mostly.
I think making him a half caster was a big mistake
the battle smith is equivalent to a paladin so it make sense but the alchemist is a healer without the druid/cleric healing power
saying that he get great healing feats is bs because all healers get great healing feats so he doesn't really catches up with the other healers
and without "spiritual guardians" and/or bonus action damage like "spiritual weapon" or what the other artificer have he can't be a good tank so he might as well spam cantrips in the back while setting up a juice bar
He could make a wonderful potion npc seller
I converted my alchemist, got annoyed at the lack of anything to do besides healing word and cantrip and switched to a monk. I'm still really wanting to play an alchemist, but there the healer subclass that can't heal.
They get the 5 notable healing/support spells (Healing word, cure wounds, lesser restoration, greater restoration and heal). A cleric or druid gets all that and are still full casters and have their class abilities (wildshape, domain spells, channel divinity, etc.). Those are the alchemist's abilities, there isn't enough else especially if your infusions are being used as support as well. If you use your infusions for your weapon you only get one attack and in a party that needs magic weapons its better to give it to a multiattack character or a rogue. The enhanced arcane focus is a trap for an alchemist, sure it helps with melf's acid arrow and ray of sickness but those are limited resources that means you won't have them to heal. If they were a full caster that wouldn't be an issue.
Hm. I thinnk if we were moding it.
I'd enroll Elixirs into ALchemist Satchel. Retain 1 free random one, and the ability to make them with spells.
Then have Acid and Alch fire work like the actual items-except with profiency (either ranged attack or spell attack). Also scale the damage as you level up-extra die per X levels maybe. (and maybe use the chance to clear up the Alch Fire's oddity of "no damage until their next turn).
Keep Thunderstone and Tanglefoot as Save DCs. (Prone or knock back is nice, as is restrained or dificult terrain (I'd prefer restrained over the terrain, but thats because I don't think that small amount of terrain change is worth actions very long)
Keep the 1/day per person Alchemnical Salve healing thingy.
Combining the current Elixirs and giving them these options I think would suppliment the ability to be a half caster support/healer sort of thing. It gives solid free per person healing per day, gives damaging options--one straight up and one a lesser Dot. Gives support/debuffing actions, and you get to choose spelsl vs elixirs, without losing options. Effectively you can hand out the 1/day healing salve/potions from the Satchel, then actively choose later if ya'll need more elixirs, or a healing word choice. or the buffs, or if you want some attack spells today. Also means you could use Cantrips for narritive things. Mending, guidiance etc. (Would still want Chill TOuch added though)
Well also make it the Focus Item for the class, so thats what gives them spell bonus at level5, could also tie the damage boosts to level 5 and scale them with canttrips for ease.
Like that would be an exciting class narritive that felt helpful, unique niche. Not a full healer, but a fair "gap fill" class that can do a lot of things al itle bit.
Though I suppose its unlikely to be re-added to the class a nd I've not really found any homebrew okay games.
I'm playing Fighter 1 / Artillerist X. So in the one session we've played, I was the party tank. And a very good one.
Using Shocking Grasp a lot.
Blood Frenzy. The quipper has advantage on melee attack rolls against any creature that doesn't have all its hit points.
Bite. Melee Weapon Attack: +5 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 1 piercing damage.
As an Alchemist?
I've pondered dipping fighter. (3 into Arcane ARcher specifically.. but I kindi of love the short rest-reseting abilities.. Though it would require the GM to let me use it with Slings or Blowgun. Because that fits alchemist flavor so well).
How do you tend to play the tanking?