I was just wondering this. I'm not planning on taking EK past 7th level and since there's a spells known system and not a spells prepared one, you don't need Int for that.
Then there are lots of spells that don't need Int at all (like absorb elements, shield, magic missile and mage armour (for fellow party members)) for their function. My character is a warlock/fighter, so EK is mainly there for spell slots and a few utility/defensive spells (warlock will provide damage dealers). In my case I don't think I'll need Int at all.
I was wondering though whether the community thinks you can go all the way (to level 12, you're unlikely to progress further in an actual campaign) with EK without getting Int above 10.
Near as I can tell, you don't need Intelligence at all. The only place I thought it might matter was the multiclassing prerequisites, and nope, it's not there. It is possible that you could keep your Int at 8 all the way through to level 20.
I actually prioritize WIS over INT on any Fighter build I play, usually getting Resilient (Wisdom) at levels 6 or 8. EKs are no exception to that.
You have access to amazing things like Absorb Elements, Shield, Mage Armor (if you are DEX-based), Magic Missile, Fog Cloud and even Sleep… none of these require INT. Later on Mirror Image, Shadow Blade, Warding Wind, etc.
Pretty much what everyone else has said. You're a fighter first and caster second. You can get by with cantrips and spells that don't require INT in early to mid game... although it might be more advantageous to not entirely dump IT, especially for role-playing purposes. But you'll get by with defensive spells or GISH cantrips with a low INT
Late game, there few level 3 and 4 spells that use DC and are rolled with disadvantaged after a weapon attack, so it doesn't hurt to have some INT bonus. You probably won't notice this at level 7 though...
If I am playing EK, I always take 1-2 levels of actual Wizard, so I prioritize Int. Even one level gets you insane utility, since you now get ritual casting and a spellbook, plus arcane recovery. Two levels to take War Magic is totally worth it as well, especially if you’re a Str based fighter with weak Dex.
War Magic is good but if you are playing a campaign that probably won't take you past lvl 11 taking a dip into Wiz really slows down your spell progression without giving you extra spell slots which is always the problem I have had with my EK. The way that they divide by 3 and round down for your spell caster lvl when you multiclass into another spell casting class hurts so much.
If you compare that to the spell slots an EK gets without mulitclassing that one level of EK from for example 6 to 7 gives the same spell slots as a 3rd lvl full caster.
I debated it myself and personally found that unless I was going to go completely away from taking anymore levels in Fighter and go only Wiz levels, the 2 lvl dip weakened my progression and power.
Granted, most of my higher-level experience here comes from playing Psi Warrior with a War Magic dip. But those two levels have been incredibly powerful for me. As a Str-based fighter, my Dex sucks. So getting to add Int to initiative has been amazing. The only spells I ever cast in combat are either ranged cantrips, Shield, or Absorb Elements, so the Arcane Deflection reaction is basically zero downside. And getting +4 on a Wis or Dex save is huge for a Str-based fighter. Plus, depending on the situation, I can conserve a spell slot to get +2 AC on a close one instead of spending a full Shield. And, of course, ritual spellcasting out of your spellbook gets you a *ton* of out of combat utility, plus a familiar you can use to gain advantage on an attack.
I wouldn't bother, but I wouldn't make it a dump stat either.
I'd keep a 12 or 14 in intelligence if it didn't conflict with with my main attack stat and con. Just so my chances of hitting with a ranged cantrip or evocation spell are not abysmal.
But really, an eldritch knight who is depending upon their spells for an attack is just so subpar. Maybe clutch in a really rare moment, but its like trading in your fighter abilities for the turn to roleplay a level 3 wizard with awful stats most of the time.
I would love a revision to the subclass so its magic can synergize with the fighter abilities a little bit more. Maybe give it the blade singer's version of extra attack
I wouldn't bother, but I wouldn't make it a dump stat either.
I'd keep a 12 or 14 in intelligence if it didn't conflict with with my main attack stat and con. Just so my chances of hitting with a ranged cantrip or evocation spell are not abysmal.
But really, an eldritch knight who is depending upon their spells for an attack is just so subpar. Maybe clutch in a really rare moment, but its like trading in your fighter abilities for the turn to roleplay a level 3 wizard with awful stats most of the time.
I would love a revision to the subclass so its magic can synergize with the fighter abilities a little bit more. Maybe give it the blade singer's version of extra attack
hear-ye hear-ye, pertaining to Blade Singer's version of Extra Attack!!! I entirely agree... but there's gotta be an emphasis on the limit to using just 1-cantrip per round in that case.
Don't get me wrong, a single cantrip versus a single weapon attack isn't a huge difference... but the restriction to a single Cantrip I think is important to emphasize with the additional weapon attacks a fighter gets per action.
I wouldn't bother, but I wouldn't make it a dump stat either.
I'd keep a 12 or 14 in intelligence if it didn't conflict with with my main attack stat and con. Just so my chances of hitting with a ranged cantrip or evocation spell are not abysmal.
But really, an eldritch knight who is depending upon their spells for an attack is just so subpar. Maybe clutch in a really rare moment, but its like trading in your fighter abilities for the turn to roleplay a level 3 wizard with awful stats most of the time.
I would love a revision to the subclass so its magic can synergize with the fighter abilities a little bit more. Maybe give it the blade singer's version of extra attack
hear-ye hear-ye, pertaining to Blade Singer's version of Extra Attack!!! I entirely agree... but there's gotta be an emphasis on the limit to using just 1-cantrip per round in that case.
Don't get me wrong, a single cantrip versus a single weapon attack isn't a huge difference... but the restriction to a single Cantrip I think is important to emphasize with the additional weapon attacks a fighter gets per action.
Yeah, a single cantrip per attack action would be important.
I would also like it if they got access to a couple of higher level spells earlier, or got something similar as a spell like ability. Like Flame Shield and Shadow Blade, things that got really well with a fighter.
Similar to arcane trickster it's perfectly valid to just take spells without spell attack rolls or saving throws and not worry about your INT score. Arcane archer probably needs to invest into some int unless you only use the shots without saving throws, but eldritch knight doesn't really need it unless you really want the option to throw out a firebolt or something. But you'd probably be better off putting points into dex to be a decent shot with a bow instead if you want a backup long range attack.
I'd probably grab absorb elements and shield and focus mostly on buffing my defenses, maybe blur or mirror image if you get it far enough for second level spells.
I'm only just starting out as an Eldritch Knight, but I gave it a lot of thought before I took it, and it seems to me you'd only have to worry about that if you intend to use spells that are saving throws instead of attack rolls. I intend to use the reaction spells (Absorb Elements, Shield, etc) more often than anything else. I considered multi-classing, but it made more sense to me just to take this as a subclass. Primarily, I'm still a fighter. An EK's spells are never going to do the amount of damage that a primary spellcaster's would, but I think it's a great way to augment my abilities/provide support.
Once War Magic comes into play, you can cast as a bonus action, so that changes things a bit, but otherwise, I don't feel like INT makes a whole lot of difference.
Depending on the level of Gameplay, Warmagic can be a huge bump if you like to use Cantrips, but when you get your third additional weapon attack, it quickly becomes less used. And yes as 6thLyranGuard said… it’s the weapon attack that occur as a bonus action, so not as good as the other way around :-(
Eldritch knight isn’t bad, but it doesn’t fit the mold that everyone envisions for the subclass… just those defensive spells you mentioned will go a long way!
Yeah the third attack messes with that. If it was like bladesinger's 'you can substitute one of your wepaon attacks for a cantrip' it'd be more useful, not having to give up an attack to cast booming blade or green flame blade etc.
Do they need high intelligence? No. You can just focus on martial enhancing spells and utility spell and still be very effective.
But that's different from a high intelligence being useless. If you want to get full effectiveness out of Eldritch Strike, which is very powerful, you'll want a high intelligence. It depends on your choice of play style.
Eldritch Strike
At 10th level, you learn how to make your weapon strikes undercut a creature’s resistance to your spells. When you hit a creature with a weapon attack, that creature has disadvantage on the next saving throw it makes against a spell you cast before the end of your next turn.
If a boss or other powerful enemy is a humanoid, hit it with weapon attacks. Next turn, cast Hold Person and they have disadvantage on their save. Action Surge: Hit them with all your melee weapon attacks, and they all have advantage and auto-crit. On their next turn, because you hit them with weapon attacks, they have disadvantage on their save again.
I don't think you can make them have disadvantage on the same spell twice.
It's disadvantage on the next saving throw it makes against a spell you cast before the end of your next turn.
So turn 1 you attack, you hit with elritch strike.
Turn 2 you cast hold person, and they have disadvantage.
Turn 3 you're attacking again, but you would have to cast ANOTHER spell for htem to get disadvantage on because you're not casting a new spell, just still concentrating on an old one.
You are correct though that INT isn't useless, it's just not required. It depends on how you want to play/what spells you want to focus on.
I don't think you can make them have disadvantage on the same spell twice.
It's disadvantage on the next saving throw it makes against a spell you cast before the end of your next turn.
So turn 1 you attack, you hit with elritch strike.
Turn 2 you cast hold person, and they have disadvantage.
Turn 3 you're attacking again, but you would have to cast ANOTHER spell for htem to get disadvantage on because you're not casting a new spell, just still concentrating on an old one.
You are correct though that INT isn't useless, it's just not required. It depends on how you want to play/what spells you want to focus on.
I don’t see anything in the language that prevents that. It is making a saving throw against a spell you cast before the end of your next turn.
I don't think you can make them have disadvantage on the same spell twice.
It's disadvantage on the next saving throw it makes against a spell you cast before the end of your next turn.
So turn 1 you attack, you hit with elritch strike.
Turn 2 you cast hold person, and they have disadvantage.
Turn 3 you're attacking again, but you would have to cast ANOTHER spell for htem to get disadvantage on because you're not casting a new spell, just still concentrating on an old one.
You are correct though that INT isn't useless, it's just not required. It depends on how you want to play/what spells you want to focus on.
I don’t see anything in the language that prevents that. It is making a saving throw against a spell you cast before the end of your next turn.
The key language here is "spell that you cast before the end of your next turn." You cast the spell on that second turn, so it works there. But afterwards you aren't forcing wisdom saves because you cast a spell, but because you are holding concentration on a spell.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
I was just wondering this. I'm not planning on taking EK past 7th level and since there's a spells known system and not a spells prepared one, you don't need Int for that.
Then there are lots of spells that don't need Int at all (like absorb elements, shield, magic missile and mage armour (for fellow party members)) for their function. My character is a warlock/fighter, so EK is mainly there for spell slots and a few utility/defensive spells (warlock will provide damage dealers). In my case I don't think I'll need Int at all.
I was wondering though whether the community thinks you can go all the way (to level 12, you're unlikely to progress further in an actual campaign) with EK without getting Int above 10.
Chilling kinda vibe.
Near as I can tell, you don't need Intelligence at all. The only place I thought it might matter was the multiclassing prerequisites, and nope, it's not there. It is possible that you could keep your Int at 8 all the way through to level 20.
<Insert clever signature here>
I actually prioritize WIS over INT on any Fighter build I play, usually getting Resilient (Wisdom) at levels 6 or 8. EKs are no exception to that.
You have access to amazing things like Absorb Elements, Shield, Mage Armor (if you are DEX-based), Magic Missile, Fog Cloud and even Sleep… none of these require INT. Later on Mirror Image, Shadow Blade, Warding Wind, etc.
Pretty much what everyone else has said. You're a fighter first and caster second. You can get by with cantrips and spells that don't require INT in early to mid game... although it might be more advantageous to not entirely dump IT, especially for role-playing purposes. But you'll get by with defensive spells or GISH cantrips with a low INT
Late game, there few level 3 and 4 spells that use DC and are rolled with disadvantaged after a weapon attack, so it doesn't hurt to have some INT bonus. You probably won't notice this at level 7 though...
If I am playing EK, I always take 1-2 levels of actual Wizard, so I prioritize Int. Even one level gets you insane utility, since you now get ritual casting and a spellbook, plus arcane recovery. Two levels to take War Magic is totally worth it as well, especially if you’re a Str based fighter with weak Dex.
War Magic is good but if you are playing a campaign that probably won't take you past lvl 11 taking a dip into Wiz really slows down your spell progression without giving you extra spell slots which is always the problem I have had with my EK. The way that they divide by 3 and round down for your spell caster lvl when you multiclass into another spell casting class hurts so much.
If you compare that to the spell slots an EK gets without mulitclassing that one level of EK from for example 6 to 7 gives the same spell slots as a 3rd lvl full caster.
I debated it myself and personally found that unless I was going to go completely away from taking anymore levels in Fighter and go only Wiz levels, the 2 lvl dip weakened my progression and power.
Granted, most of my higher-level experience here comes from playing Psi Warrior with a War Magic dip. But those two levels have been incredibly powerful for me. As a Str-based fighter, my Dex sucks. So getting to add Int to initiative has been amazing. The only spells I ever cast in combat are either ranged cantrips, Shield, or Absorb Elements, so the Arcane Deflection reaction is basically zero downside. And getting +4 on a Wis or Dex save is huge for a Str-based fighter. Plus, depending on the situation, I can conserve a spell slot to get +2 AC on a close one instead of spending a full Shield. And, of course, ritual spellcasting out of your spellbook gets you a *ton* of out of combat utility, plus a familiar you can use to gain advantage on an attack.
I would go WIS over INT as well, but mainly because I want to take 2 Levels of Twilight Cleric :-)
I would go EK lvl 8 (for Shadow Blade), then 2 lvls Twilight Cleric for garantied dim light and 3rd lvl spellslots to upcast Shadow Blade.
I wouldn't bother, but I wouldn't make it a dump stat either.
I'd keep a 12 or 14 in intelligence if it didn't conflict with with my main attack stat and con. Just so my chances of hitting with a ranged cantrip or evocation spell are not abysmal.
But really, an eldritch knight who is depending upon their spells for an attack is just so subpar. Maybe clutch in a really rare moment, but its like trading in your fighter abilities for the turn to roleplay a level 3 wizard with awful stats most of the time.
I would love a revision to the subclass so its magic can synergize with the fighter abilities a little bit more. Maybe give it the blade singer's version of extra attack
hear-ye hear-ye, pertaining to Blade Singer's version of Extra Attack!!! I entirely agree... but there's gotta be an emphasis on the limit to using just 1-cantrip per round in that case.
Don't get me wrong, a single cantrip versus a single weapon attack isn't a huge difference... but the restriction to a single Cantrip I think is important to emphasize with the additional weapon attacks a fighter gets per action.
Yeah, a single cantrip per attack action would be important.
I would also like it if they got access to a couple of higher level spells earlier, or got something similar as a spell like ability. Like Flame Shield and Shadow Blade, things that got really well with a fighter.
Similar to arcane trickster it's perfectly valid to just take spells without spell attack rolls or saving throws and not worry about your INT score. Arcane archer probably needs to invest into some int unless you only use the shots without saving throws, but eldritch knight doesn't really need it unless you really want the option to throw out a firebolt or something. But you'd probably be better off putting points into dex to be a decent shot with a bow instead if you want a backup long range attack.
I'd probably grab absorb elements and shield and focus mostly on buffing my defenses, maybe blur or mirror image if you get it far enough for second level spells.
I'm only just starting out as an Eldritch Knight, but I gave it a lot of thought before I took it, and it seems to me you'd only have to worry about that if you intend to use spells that are saving throws instead of attack rolls. I intend to use the reaction spells (Absorb Elements, Shield, etc) more often than anything else. I considered multi-classing, but it made more sense to me just to take this as a subclass. Primarily, I'm still a fighter. An EK's spells are never going to do the amount of damage that a primary spellcaster's would, but I think it's a great way to augment my abilities/provide support.
Once War Magic comes into play, you can cast as a bonus action, so that changes things a bit, but otherwise, I don't feel like INT makes a whole lot of difference.
War Magic doesn't let you cast spells as a bonus action, it lets you make a weapon attack as a bonus action after casting a spell. Major difference.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Depending on the level of Gameplay, Warmagic can be a huge bump if you like to use Cantrips, but when you get your third additional weapon attack, it quickly becomes less used. And yes as 6thLyranGuard said… it’s the weapon attack that occur as a bonus action, so not as good as the other way around :-(
Eldritch knight isn’t bad, but it doesn’t fit the mold that everyone envisions for the subclass… just those defensive spells you mentioned will go a long way!
Yeah the third attack messes with that. If it was like bladesinger's 'you can substitute one of your wepaon attacks for a cantrip' it'd be more useful, not having to give up an attack to cast booming blade or green flame blade etc.
Do they need high intelligence? No. You can just focus on martial enhancing spells and utility spell and still be very effective.
But that's different from a high intelligence being useless. If you want to get full effectiveness out of Eldritch Strike, which is very powerful, you'll want a high intelligence. It depends on your choice of play style.
Eldritch Strike
At 10th level, you learn how to make your weapon strikes undercut a creature’s resistance to your spells. When you hit a creature with a weapon attack, that creature has disadvantage on the next saving throw it makes against a spell you cast before the end of your next turn.
If a boss or other powerful enemy is a humanoid, hit it with weapon attacks. Next turn, cast Hold Person and they have disadvantage on their save. Action Surge: Hit them with all your melee weapon attacks, and they all have advantage and auto-crit. On their next turn, because you hit them with weapon attacks, they have disadvantage on their save again.
I don't think you can make them have disadvantage on the same spell twice.
It's disadvantage on the next saving throw it makes against a spell you cast before the end of your next turn.
So turn 1 you attack, you hit with elritch strike.
Turn 2 you cast hold person, and they have disadvantage.
Turn 3 you're attacking again, but you would have to cast ANOTHER spell for htem to get disadvantage on because you're not casting a new spell, just still concentrating on an old one.
You are correct though that INT isn't useless, it's just not required. It depends on how you want to play/what spells you want to focus on.
I don’t see anything in the language that prevents that. It is making a saving throw against a spell you cast before the end of your next turn.
The key language here is "spell that you cast before the end of your next turn." You cast the spell on that second turn, so it works there. But afterwards you aren't forcing wisdom saves because you cast a spell, but because you are holding concentration on a spell.