Treantmonk nailed once again and gave light to a hidden gem ignored by the community for so many years. Sometimes the hive mind kind of forces us all to presume that Rangers are bad, Sorcerers are not versatile and Arcane Archer is a poor sub-class.
But take look below:
Quote from Grasping Arrow »
When this arrow strikes its target, conjuration magic creates grasping, poisonous brambles, which wrap around the target. The creature hit by the arrow takes an extra 2d6 poison damage, its speed is reduced by 10 feet, and it takes 2d6 slashing damage the first time on each turn it moves 1 foot or more without teleporting. The target or any creature that can reach it can use its action to remove the brambles with a successful Strength (Athletics) check against your Arcane Shot save DC. Otherwise, the brambles last for 1 minute or until you use this option again.
The poison damage and slashing damage both increase to 4d6 when you reach 18th level in this class.
Now I’m looking for effective ways to optimize Grasping Arrow. Obviously Hex comes to mind, whether through Fey Touched or a Warlock dip. What else could be leveraged to maximize it?
I think Teleketic is the best way to optimize it because it lets you use your bonus to try to apply the extra movement slashing damage every turn while he is grasped. If you have an odd intelligence it can also can raise the DC of the escape check and your other less effective arcane shots.
I am a fan of Fey Touched and Hex as well on this class as well (and really any ranged martial). Having misty step in your back pocket to disengage is useful, but I think Telekenetic is better for an AA.
The other feat to consider is Sharpshooter. It is going to be hard optimize between these three feats. Getting all 3 at early levels will put you way behind on dexterity.
The true power of Grasping Arrow is team mates that can move the enemy around because it can be triggered once every turn. Being able is move the enemy yourself is a nice bonus but the true strength comes from friends.
Rearly good insights and advices, my friends. Thank you very much!
I didn’t thought about Telekinetic and indeed is a great pick for my level 6 feat choice. I’m not that worried about raising DEX because Archery already puts me above the curve and since I’m not planning to use Sharpshooter, it will not be a problem.
Sharpshooter is amazing and it’s a must have for every ranged build, but Arcane Archer is one the trials I’m testing to optimize ranged damage without resorting always in SS and CBE. Grasping Arrow, Hex and a couple magic items can keep my DPR in place (Bracers of Archery and maybe the new Dragonwing Bows from Fizban’s)
I thought about fear as well, that’s why I will nail Hex with Fey Touched at level 4.
Poisoner is also a really great idea, it gives me more bonus action option and it’s a nice damage boost. Although I’ll analyze some sources, because I think the main issue against poison is not only resistance, but poison immunity is quite common, I guess. I’ll double check nevertheless.
The build I’m planning is a Wood Elf. Our table is not heavily optimized, so I can invest in more flavorful and utility options. I’ll get Fey Touched (Hex) at 4 to improve Grasping Arrow effectiveness, and Wood Elf Magic at 6. This feat gives me access to Pass Without a Trace once a day, and let’s me pick a Druid cantrip, which will be Guidance, hence allowing me to support my party a little bit. At 8 I’ll probably go for Alert, but Poisoner or Telekinetic are also great.
I don't think there is any rule saying you can't have 2 grasping arrows up at the same or really even on the same enemy. It is not a spell so there is no concentration, and because it is not a spell, the rules about stacking the same spell does not apply.
the 2 times per SR is accurate, but it is a powerful ability and 2 per SR would be 6 per LR in a day with a lot of fights. That is more slots than a spellcaster will get per day for something equivalent.
I agree it feels a little bit underwhelming, but you could work with your DM to get at least one more use at level 7. Nevertheless, it’s indeed powerful and much more effective than some battlemaster maneuvers, for instance. So I think the rate 2 for 4 is kind of ok.
I built this character but haven't played it, so it may need some tweaking.
Arcane archer with swarm keeper Ranger with a longbow. This is definitely a mid-game build, so at level 8 this fully comes online, as thats when a ranger multiclass gets 2nd level spell slots. You can do most of it before then, just minus spike growth.
Cast spike growth right behind the bad guy (so he's not inside of it, but right on the edge) (free bonus action, just cant use hunters mark due to concentration on spike growth. Maybe second wind?) Action surge Shot them with an Arrow Twice On one of the shots, use grasping arrow Then push them back 15ft into the spike growth using gathered swam (assuming they fail the save)
The big star of the show here is using the swarm keeper feature to move the opponent, triggering damage from BOTH spike growth and the grasping arrow.
So lets recap and assume everything hits 2 arrow shots = 2d8+8 (the modifier may change based on level and equipment) Grasping arrow 2d6 poison on a hit Grasping arrow 2d6 slashing damage from being moved (assuming they fail a strength save) Spike growth 6d4 slashing
After all that, they end up inside the spike growth, so any direction they move (assuming no teleport or fly) they take damage. Since spike growth is a 20 ft diameter and you pushed them for 15 ft, their path of least damage is straight away from you (for which they will take an additional 2d4 AND its difficult terrain). If they choose to stay where they are, then on your next turn you can shoot them with arrows twice more, and pull them around in the spike growth again , dealing another 6d4.
Also possible - they fail another strength save, meaning they are still restrained, OR one of their friends wanders over to free them, in which case that friend will take 2d4 damage (assuming they take the shortest path inside the growth).
Its a little resource heavy, involving action surge, one arcane shot, and a 2nd level spell slot, but damn it sorta sounds fun.
I actually don't think Treantmonk discovered much of anything...he's just crazy late to the party in realizing just how good archery fighting style + sharpshooter + action surge is, but maybe still doesn't realize it and is falsely attributing it to something the Arcane Archer is doing differently. Which isn't surprising considering his history of underrating damage and overrating control. The subclass is being propped up by how good these non-subclass related tools are.
That being said, I do think Grasping Arrow is really fun to think about.
I like Dao Genie Warlock for this. Take the crusher feat and when you make your first attack that hits a grasping arrow you can then immediately trigger the extra damage thanks to the bludgeoning damage from Genie's Wrath and Crusher working together so well. This movement has no saving throw and keeps your BA open so that you can use hex for more damage and as ECMO3 astutely points out, weaken the enemy's ability to break free from the effect.
he was comparing Arcane Archer to a SS + CBE build both resourceless.
If what you got from that video was Archery FS and SS then something went wrong because in his comparisons both builds had it by tier 2 so it was just a net 0.
Treatmonk's main "discovery" was how great Grasping Arrow & Curving Shot was.
Not exactly new discoveries being made but hey it brought attention to it to more people which is fine.
Edit: As for Grasping Arrow Optimization, you could probably combine the two previously listed builds. The AA/Ranger build does have a couple ASIs, so the possibility of grabbing Fey Touched to get Hex is there. Although it'd make it even more of a burst build, so just keep that in mind.
speaking of treatmonk I think his latest build Tear and Scare has Grasping Arrow as well, there's some cool tricks there. The build comes online at level 9, and fully online at level 11 which isn't ideal but you can still copy some of the tricks.
Metallic Dragonborn for pushing breath (can grasping arrow and push in the same action)
Dragon Fear (for control, if they move to break the frightened via grasping arrow damage then they well... still take damage so job accomplished)
Bladesinger and a pushing/pulling cantrip (in the video it's EB + Repelling Blast + Hex)
Summon Shadowspawn (for control, reduces movement speed by 20, Grasping Arrow reduces by 10, so total -30ft movement)
Silvery Barbs (you all probably saw that one coming)
Alternatives to Spike Growth (such as Wall of Fire)
Treantmonk nailed once again and gave light to a hidden gem ignored by the community for so many years. Sometimes the hive mind kind of forces us all to presume that Rangers are bad, Sorcerers are not versatile and Arcane Archer is a poor sub-class.
But take look below:
Now I’m looking for effective ways to optimize Grasping Arrow. Obviously Hex comes to mind, whether through Fey Touched or a Warlock dip. What else could be leveraged to maximize it?
I think Teleketic is the best way to optimize it because it lets you use your bonus to try to apply the extra movement slashing damage every turn while he is grasped. If you have an odd intelligence it can also can raise the DC of the escape check and your other less effective arcane shots.
I am a fan of Fey Touched and Hex as well on this class as well (and really any ranged martial). Having misty step in your back pocket to disengage is useful, but I think Telekenetic is better for an AA.
The other feat to consider is Sharpshooter. It is going to be hard optimize between these three feats. Getting all 3 at early levels will put you way behind on dexterity.
The true power of Grasping Arrow is team mates that can move the enemy around because it can be triggered once every turn. Being able is move the enemy yourself is a nice bonus but the true strength comes from friends.
Rearly good insights and advices, my friends. Thank you very much!
I didn’t thought about Telekinetic and indeed is a great pick for my level 6 feat choice. I’m not that worried about raising DEX because Archery already puts me above the curve and since I’m not planning to use Sharpshooter, it will not be a problem.
Sharpshooter is amazing and it’s a must have for every ranged build, but Arcane Archer is one the trials I’m testing to optimize ranged damage without resorting always in SS and CBE. Grasping Arrow, Hex and a couple magic items can keep my DPR in place (Bracers of Archery and maybe the new Dragonwing Bows from Fizban’s)
Also, it’s flavoured as brambles but it works when they fly too, so if there’s some hidden synergy there too, who knows?
Fear would do wonders as well, in reducing their chances on freeing themselves. Grapple and drag then everywhere?
Poisoner Feat:
I thought about fear as well, that’s why I will nail Hex with Fey Touched at level 4.
Poisoner is also a really great idea, it gives me more bonus action option and it’s a nice damage boost. Although I’ll analyze some sources, because I think the main issue against poison is not only resistance, but poison immunity is quite common, I guess. I’ll double check nevertheless.
The build I’m planning is a Wood Elf. Our table is not heavily optimized, so I can invest in more flavorful and utility options. I’ll get Fey Touched (Hex) at 4 to improve Grasping Arrow effectiveness, and Wood Elf Magic at 6. This feat gives me access to Pass Without a Trace once a day, and let’s me pick a Druid cantrip, which will be Guidance, hence allowing me to support my party a little bit. At 8 I’ll probably go for Alert, but Poisoner or Telekinetic are also great.
Nice thought on poisioner.
The Fear spell would be awesome as they would have to flee doing damage to themselves every turn.
Why is that?
I don't think there is any rule saying you can't have 2 grasping arrows up at the same or really even on the same enemy. It is not a spell so there is no concentration, and because it is not a spell, the rules about stacking the same spell does not apply.
the 2 times per SR is accurate, but it is a powerful ability and 2 per SR would be 6 per LR in a day with a lot of fights. That is more slots than a spellcaster will get per day for something equivalent.
I agree it feels a little bit underwhelming, but you could work with your DM to get at least one more use at level 7. Nevertheless, it’s indeed powerful and much more effective than some battlemaster maneuvers, for instance. So I think the rate 2 for 4 is kind of ok.
I built this character but haven't played it, so it may need some tweaking.
Arcane archer with swarm keeper Ranger with a longbow. This is definitely a mid-game build, so at level 8 this fully comes online, as thats when a ranger multiclass gets 2nd level spell slots. You can do most of it before then, just minus spike growth.
Cast spike growth right behind the bad guy (so he's not inside of it, but right on the edge)
(free bonus action, just cant use hunters mark due to concentration on spike growth. Maybe second wind?)
Action surge
Shot them with an Arrow Twice
On one of the shots, use grasping arrow
Then push them back 15ft into the spike growth using gathered swam (assuming they fail the save)
The big star of the show here is using the swarm keeper feature to move the opponent, triggering damage from BOTH spike growth and the grasping arrow.
So lets recap and assume everything hits
2 arrow shots = 2d8+8 (the modifier may change based on level and equipment)
Grasping arrow 2d6 poison on a hit
Grasping arrow 2d6 slashing damage from being moved (assuming they fail a strength save)
Spike growth 6d4 slashing
After all that, they end up inside the spike growth, so any direction they move (assuming no teleport or fly) they take damage. Since spike growth is a 20 ft diameter and you pushed them for 15 ft, their path of least damage is straight away from you (for which they will take an additional 2d4 AND its difficult terrain).
If they choose to stay where they are, then on your next turn you can shoot them with arrows twice more, and pull them around in the spike growth again , dealing another 6d4.
Also possible - they fail another strength save, meaning they are still restrained, OR one of their friends wanders over to free them, in which case that friend will take 2d4 damage (assuming they take the shortest path inside the growth).
Its a little resource heavy, involving action surge, one arcane shot, and a 2nd level spell slot, but damn it sorta sounds fun.
FYI I probably stole that from some build I saw online, as Im not smart enough to have figured it out by myself. So there is that :)
Sounds pretty good. I have an Arcane Trickster/Arcane Archer build I am currently playing.
Get Hex at Rogue 4 through Fey Touched and then switch fighter
Get Telekenetic at Fighter 4.
Hex Strength, then Grasping Arrow. The Hex gives him disadvantage on trying to break out, then every turn move him again with your telekenetic attack.
Gravy is this boosts the range on the Rogue's awesome Mage Hand to 60 feet.
I actually don't think Treantmonk discovered much of anything...he's just crazy late to the party in realizing just how good archery fighting style + sharpshooter + action surge is, but maybe still doesn't realize it and is falsely attributing it to something the Arcane Archer is doing differently. Which isn't surprising considering his history of underrating damage and overrating control. The subclass is being propped up by how good these non-subclass related tools are.
That being said, I do think Grasping Arrow is really fun to think about.
I like Dao Genie Warlock for this. Take the crusher feat and when you make your first attack that hits a grasping arrow you can then immediately trigger the extra damage thanks to the bludgeoning damage from Genie's Wrath and Crusher working together so well. This movement has no saving throw and keeps your BA open so that you can use hex for more damage and as ECMO3 astutely points out, weaken the enemy's ability to break free from the effect.
he was comparing Arcane Archer to a SS + CBE build both resourceless.
If what you got from that video was Archery FS and SS then something went wrong because in his comparisons both builds had it by tier 2 so it was just a net 0.
Treatmonk's main "discovery" was how great Grasping Arrow & Curving Shot was.
Not exactly new discoveries being made but hey it brought attention to it to more people which is fine.
Edit: As for Grasping Arrow Optimization, you could probably combine the two previously listed builds. The AA/Ranger build does have a couple ASIs, so the possibility of grabbing Fey Touched to get Hex is there. Although it'd make it even more of a burst build, so just keep that in mind.
speaking of treatmonk I think his latest build Tear and Scare has Grasping Arrow as well, there's some cool tricks there. The build comes online at level 9, and fully online at level 11 which isn't ideal but you can still copy some of the tricks.
if I edit a message, most of the time it's because of grammar. The rest of the time I'll put "Edit:" at the bottom.
Late to the party but.
Arcane archer with Dao genie lock dip and crusher feat can have a lot of fun with it too