Wondering if folks find Battlemaster & Monster Hunter running out of Superiority dice too quickly?
Just 4 to start, 5 at lvl. 7, and max out at 6 at lvl. 15. With no guarantees of a short rest between battles, that's pretty tough. But also even the raw amount - you are making 2 maybe 3 attacks pretty quick into the game, so you could burn through them quite fast. Which renders a Battlemaster without anything other than its base Fighter chassis. Managing resources is certainly part of the game, but are maneuvers so good they must be used that sparingly? At least a Monk's Focus Points steadily grow with each level.
Same question applies to the Martial Adept feat - really just 1 dice?
I do see folks talking about homebrews of giving them +1 to start, which I think makes sense. Thoughts?
Wondering if folks find Battlemaster & Monster Hunter running out of Superiority dice too quickly?
Just 4 to start, 5 at lvl. 7, and max out at 6 at lvl. 15. With no guarantees of a short rest between battles, that's pretty tough. But also even the raw amount - you are making 2 maybe 3 attacks pretty quick into the game, so you could burn through them quite fast. Which renders a Battlemaster without anything other than its base Fighter chassis. Managing resources is certainly part of the game, but are maneuvers so good they must be used that sparingly? At least a Monk's Focus Points steadily grow with each level.
Same question applies to the Martial Adept feat - really just 1 dice? I
I do see folks talking about homebrews of giving them +1 to start, which I think makes sense. Thoughts?
Resource management is part of the game. Also your DM should balance it out as well. So it’s a combination of your table that’s the issue not was given in the PHB. I would have a heart to heart with your DM or analyze your strategy usage as well. DND games are designed to be hard for the DM and Players and the end result should both be at center (equal) not one side far to be right and the other far to left. Winning too easy for me is not fun for the DMalso TPK is not fun for players. Just my opinion for you to ponder.
Another possible rule if using 2024 and allowing Tasha (2014) optional rules as well. Could add the following to fighting feats at 1st level- from Tasha)
Superior Technique You learn one maneuver of your choice from among those available to the Battle Master archetype. If a maneuver you use requires your target to make a saving throw to resist the maneuver’s effects, the saving throw DC equals 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Strength or Dexterity modifier (your choice).
Which will give you an extra die (d6) and would not have to homebrew nothing.
Wondering if folks find Battlemaster & Monster Hunter running out of Superiority dice too quickly?
Just 4 to start, 5 at lvl. 7, and max out at 6 at lvl. 15. With no guarantees of a short rest between battles, that's pretty tough. But also even the raw amount - you are making 2 maybe 3 attacks pretty quick into the game, so you could burn through them quite fast. Which renders a Battlemaster without anything other than its base Fighter chassis. Managing resources is certainly part of the game, but are maneuvers so good they must be used that sparingly? At least a Monk's Focus Points steadily grow with each level.
Same question applies to the Martial Adept feat - really just 1 dice? I
I do see folks talking about homebrews of giving them +1 to start, which I think makes sense. Thoughts?
Resource management is part of the game. Also your DM should balance it out as well. So it’s a combination of your table that’s the issue not was given in the PHB. I would have a heart to heart with your DM or analyze your strategy usage as well. DND games are designed to be hard for the DM and Players and the end result should both be at center (equal) not one side far to be right and the other far to left. Winning too easy for me is not fun for the DMalso TPK is not fun for players. Just my opinion for you to ponder.
Another possible rule if using 2024 and allowing Tasha (2014) optional rules as well. Could add the following to fighting feats at 1st level- from Tasha)
Superior Technique You learn one maneuver of your choice from among those available to the Battle Master archetype. If a maneuver you use requires your target to make a saving throw to resist the maneuver’s effects, the saving throw DC equals 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Strength or Dexterity modifier (your choice).
Which will give you an extra die (d6) and would not have to homebrew nothing.
Totally agree combat should not be too easy. Not sure BM's maneuvers do that though. I think they are strategic, varied, and fun, but not overpowered.
That said, I think I'd be okay with such a tight limit, if the BM had other distinguishing features it brought to the table. It doesn't seem fun for a class/subclass to easily lose what makes it special. The Monster Hunter, for close comparison, at least has a couple spells that don't compete with action economy, by being able to be cast out of combat. Plus a few more skills for utility. Monk, likewise, has more resources and other features it brings to the table not based on the limited resource. Barbarian's rage gives its full menu of boosts while lasting 10 min.
Or perhaps if BM had a way to recover superiority dice by say sacrificing some HP? A choice with a tradeoff seems reasonable and opens things up.
This is about the first time I’m hearing someone say a BM is underpowered. They’re usually ranked in the S tier of fighter subclasses. Most fights only last 3-5 rounds. You’ve got enough to do something pretty much every round. And even with just the base fighter chassis, you’re really very strong. If you’re not getting a short rest in, well, that’s kind of strange. How many fights are you having between rests?
And if by monster hunter you’re talking about the old UA, it’s not really comparable. It’s an unpublished version of a subclass which was abandoned. UAs are routinely changed dramatically if and when they actually go to press. Since this one was dropped, what you are seeing is an unfinished version — a rough draft.
“That said, I think I'd be okay with such a tight limit, if the BM had other distinguishing features it brought to the table.”
But the subclass is just a little subset of the whole. The fighter class gets extra ASI at 6th, extra extra attacks which can combine with Weapon masteries to make you elite within the martial class. Plus probably the best feature or one of the best features Action surge to boot.
Subclasses are just specialities of the class. BM is probably one of the strongest subclasses in the game. Once again the argument is play style (resource management) and conflict with DM. You can always take a short rest, but that’s the chance which this game is a chance (lol die rolling deciding outcomes).
once again just stating my opinion, you can decide what is best.
Good thoughts. Yeah, the Fighter class does have a fair amount to offer in itself. And a maneuver is fairly efficient - it's something that gets tacked on to an existing attack, augmenting something you are already going to do. I guess as I watch others take their turns, it seems their non-martial classes are doing so many different kinds of things. I dunno. I know Fighters are less complex, but having a core ability that gives relatively simple boosts remain a little less scarce seems positive to me.
Roughly one maneuver per round I guess has a fairness to it? But because of a Fighter's multiple attacks, it is only benefiting on a portion of its turn. Which for some maneuvers is fine, but boosting one attack one time could easily feel like something you need/want to do often. If you used that on both attacks, that's half your dice in one turn. We have absolutely had a couple back-to-back combats, most pretty robust. Resources getting consumed steadily.
I think Dice's renewal on Short Rests kind of makes this work conceptually. But in practice Short Rest frequency varies by table & campaign. In my limited play over the past year, I think my group has done one? Often not a choice. Mostly we Long Rest anyway, but that favors more potent features that reset on Long Rests, like spells and smites. Like I'd probably rather have a few more raw uses of Superiority Dice, but they only reset fully on a Long Rest, with some minor way to regain some in between.
In mentioning Monster Hunter, I was definitely not saying it was better than Battlemaster. Rather just noting that the arguably better Battlemaster has less to do once it's 4-5 dice are spent, outside of core Fighter stuff. YMMV, but I say either give it a few more resources to do what it's supposed to do or round out some other minor options.
The fact that your table has maybe only taken one short rest in the past year is wild to me. Are you playing a gritty realism style campaign? Even then, a short rest is worth taking. Does your group not have a Monk (focus points) or Warlock (spells)? Even Barbarians (regain 1 rage), Druids (regain 1 wild shape), Clerics and Paladins (regain 1 channel divinity), and Wizards (arcane recovery) benefit from short rests. Also at higher levels Bards (font of inspiration), Sorcerers (sorcerous restoration), Rangers (tireless), Rogues (stroke of luck), and again Wizards (memorize spell and signature spells) become more robust with short rests. Battle Master (and the fighter class in general) is a subclass that flourishes with short rests.
How does your table heal between fights? I know you say that you have back to back combat, but i don't think it unreasonable to call for a short rest when necessary. Do they use their own spells or drink potions? That's spells and gold they could use for something else. I would say you should talk to your group about doing them more regularly or if you would like to be spicy take the short rest by yourself and let everyone else push forward. Splitting the party is fun and scary, but I don't see why you shouldn't be able to benefit from your subclass's features just to keep pace with everyone else.
I apologize if I sound insufferable but I'm also playing a level 3 Battle Master and I've almost always had all of my Superiority Dice for multiple encounters. I think this isn't an issue of how many Superiority Dice you have, it's an issue of how many short rests your table takes. If the pace of the story does take priority, maybe ask one of your spellcasters to prepare Catnap for you (assuming you have a Bard, Sorcerer, or Wizard and have access to spells from Xanathar's).
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Wondering if folks find Battlemaster & Monster Hunter running out of Superiority dice too quickly?
Just 4 to start, 5 at lvl. 7, and max out at 6 at lvl. 15. With no guarantees of a short rest between battles, that's pretty tough. But also even the raw amount - you are making 2 maybe 3 attacks pretty quick into the game, so you could burn through them quite fast. Which renders a Battlemaster without anything other than its base Fighter chassis. Managing resources is certainly part of the game, but are maneuvers so good they must be used that sparingly? At least a Monk's Focus Points steadily grow with each level.
Same question applies to the Martial Adept feat - really just 1 dice?
I do see folks talking about homebrews of giving them +1 to start, which I think makes sense. Thoughts?
Resource management is part of the game. Also your DM should balance it out as well. So it’s a combination of your table that’s the issue not was given in the PHB. I would have a heart to heart with your DM or analyze your strategy usage as well. DND games are designed to be hard for the DM and Players and the end result should both be at center (equal) not one side far to be right and the other far to left. Winning too easy for me is not fun for the DMalso TPK is not fun for players. Just my opinion for you to ponder.
Another possible rule if using 2024 and allowing Tasha (2014) optional rules as well. Could add the following to fighting feats at 1st level- from Tasha)
Superior Technique
You learn one maneuver of your choice from among those available to the Battle Master archetype. If a maneuver you use requires your target to make a saving throw to resist the maneuver’s effects, the saving throw DC equals 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Strength or Dexterity modifier (your choice).
Which will give you an extra die (d6) and would not have to homebrew nothing.
Totally agree combat should not be too easy. Not sure BM's maneuvers do that though. I think they are strategic, varied, and fun, but not overpowered.
That said, I think I'd be okay with such a tight limit, if the BM had other distinguishing features it brought to the table. It doesn't seem fun for a class/subclass to easily lose what makes it special. The Monster Hunter, for close comparison, at least has a couple spells that don't compete with action economy, by being able to be cast out of combat. Plus a few more skills for utility. Monk, likewise, has more resources and other features it brings to the table not based on the limited resource. Barbarian's rage gives its full menu of boosts while lasting 10 min.
Or perhaps if BM had a way to recover superiority dice by say sacrificing some HP? A choice with a tradeoff seems reasonable and opens things up.
This is about the first time I’m hearing someone say a BM is underpowered. They’re usually ranked in the S tier of fighter subclasses.
Most fights only last 3-5 rounds. You’ve got enough to do something pretty much every round. And even with just the base fighter chassis, you’re really very strong.
If you’re not getting a short rest in, well, that’s kind of strange. How many fights are you having between rests?
And if by monster hunter you’re talking about the old UA, it’s not really comparable. It’s an unpublished version of a subclass which was abandoned. UAs are routinely changed dramatically if and when they actually go to press. Since this one was dropped, what you are seeing is an unfinished version — a rough draft.
“That said, I think I'd be okay with such a tight limit, if the BM had other distinguishing features it brought to the table.”
But the subclass is just a little subset of the whole. The fighter class gets extra ASI at 6th, extra extra attacks which can combine with Weapon masteries to make you elite within the martial class. Plus probably the best feature or one of the best features Action surge to boot.
Subclasses are just specialities of the class. BM is probably one of the strongest subclasses in the game. Once again the argument is play style (resource management) and conflict with DM. You can always take a short rest, but that’s the chance which this game is a chance (lol die rolling deciding outcomes).
once again just stating my opinion, you can decide what is best.
Good thoughts. Yeah, the Fighter class does have a fair amount to offer in itself. And a maneuver is fairly efficient - it's something that gets tacked on to an existing attack, augmenting something you are already going to do. I guess as I watch others take their turns, it seems their non-martial classes are doing so many different kinds of things. I dunno. I know Fighters are less complex, but having a core ability that gives relatively simple boosts remain a little less scarce seems positive to me.
Roughly one maneuver per round I guess has a fairness to it? But because of a Fighter's multiple attacks, it is only benefiting on a portion of its turn. Which for some maneuvers is fine, but boosting one attack one time could easily feel like something you need/want to do often. If you used that on both attacks, that's half your dice in one turn. We have absolutely had a couple back-to-back combats, most pretty robust. Resources getting consumed steadily.
I think Dice's renewal on Short Rests kind of makes this work conceptually. But in practice Short Rest frequency varies by table & campaign. In my limited play over the past year, I think my group has done one? Often not a choice. Mostly we Long Rest anyway, but that favors more potent features that reset on Long Rests, like spells and smites. Like I'd probably rather have a few more raw uses of Superiority Dice, but they only reset fully on a Long Rest, with some minor way to regain some in between.
In mentioning Monster Hunter, I was definitely not saying it was better than Battlemaster. Rather just noting that the arguably better Battlemaster has less to do once it's 4-5 dice are spent, outside of core Fighter stuff. YMMV, but I say either give it a few more resources to do what it's supposed to do or round out some other minor options.
The fact that your table has maybe only taken one short rest in the past year is wild to me. Are you playing a gritty realism style campaign? Even then, a short rest is worth taking. Does your group not have a Monk (focus points) or Warlock (spells)? Even Barbarians (regain 1 rage), Druids (regain 1 wild shape), Clerics and Paladins (regain 1 channel divinity), and Wizards (arcane recovery) benefit from short rests. Also at higher levels Bards (font of inspiration), Sorcerers (sorcerous restoration), Rangers (tireless), Rogues (stroke of luck), and again Wizards (memorize spell and signature spells) become more robust with short rests. Battle Master (and the fighter class in general) is a subclass that flourishes with short rests.
How does your table heal between fights? I know you say that you have back to back combat, but i don't think it unreasonable to call for a short rest when necessary. Do they use their own spells or drink potions? That's spells and gold they could use for something else. I would say you should talk to your group about doing them more regularly or if you would like to be spicy take the short rest by yourself and let everyone else push forward. Splitting the party is fun and scary, but I don't see why you shouldn't be able to benefit from your subclass's features just to keep pace with everyone else.
I apologize if I sound insufferable but I'm also playing a level 3 Battle Master and I've almost always had all of my Superiority Dice for multiple encounters. I think this isn't an issue of how many Superiority Dice you have, it's an issue of how many short rests your table takes. If the pace of the story does take priority, maybe ask one of your spellcasters to prepare Catnap for you (assuming you have a Bard, Sorcerer, or Wizard and have access to spells from Xanathar's).