I honestly don't think anything is OP compared to a Wizard. I think it would be a good balance that some classes have more burst, just like Paladins have smite compared to more mundane martials. Sorcerers are already seen as lackluster, so if you're able to do a nice multiclass for a cool combo like that, then go ahead. Remember that you're also behind on spell progression.
That's actually a really good point. Sorcerers are a bit boned when it comes to progression and utility. They might have metamagic but that isn't free either.
I'll just toss out the Sorc 3/Fighter 2 or 3/Warlock 2 build. Warlock EB does damage like a longbow, and you can quicken spell it. At level 7 you can do 6 of them in a turn, and if you take a turn or two beforehand to prep a hex/hexblade curse it does some pretty nutty damage. After level 7 progressing down whichever you want, since each of them have relevant progression.
Going for Fighter 4 means you can grab Battlemaster for all the passive options for using it's superiority dice like initiative/skill checks. Also a feat, but going past 4 is questionable since EB just works better than extra attack.
Sorcerer is a full caster, and getting more slots for support stuff like Counterspelling, Slow, Catnap, etc. More points for metamagic too. Your single target burst is great, so you can try and shore up any party deficiencies.
Warlock is also sort of a full caster, and progressing can net you decent patron features and a pact boon. More Invocations means you can also buff your EB more to push/slow/300 ft range. If you get the pushing invocation, then if your burst can move creatures 10 ft 6 times in a row, which is great spacing and amazing synergy with spike growth.
I honestly don't think anything is OP compared to a Wizard. I think it would be a good balance that some classes have more burst, just like Paladins have smite compared to more mundane martials. Sorcerers are already seen as lackluster, so if you're able to do a nice multiclass for a cool combo like that, then go ahead. Remember that you're also behind on spell progression.
That's actually a really good point. Sorcerers are a bit boned when it comes to progression and utility. They might have metamagic but that isn't free either.
I'll just toss out the Sorc 3/Fighter 2 or 3/Warlock 2 build. Warlock EB does damage like a longbow, and you can quicken spell it. At level 7 you can do 6 of them in a turn, and if you take a turn or two beforehand to prep a hex/hexblade curse it does some pretty nutty damage. After level 7 progressing down whichever you want, since each of them have relevant progression.
Going for Fighter 4 means you can grab Battlemaster for all the passive options for using it's superiority dice like initiative/skill checks. Also a feat, but going past 4 is questionable since EB just works better than extra attack.
Sorcerer is a full caster, and getting more slots for support stuff like Counterspelling, Slow, Catnap, etc. More points for metamagic too. Your single target burst is great, so you can try and shore up any party deficiencies.
Warlock is also sort of a full caster, and progressing can net you decent patron features and a pact boon. More Invocations means you can also buff your EB more to push/slow/300 ft range. If you get the pushing invocation, then if your burst can move creatures 10 ft 6 times in a row, which is great spacing and amazing synergy with spike growth.
And then a level 6 fighter can probably do some 5 attacks for 1d10 + 4 + 10 for each of those attacks.
I honestly don't think anything is OP compared to a Wizard. I think it would be a good balance that some classes have more burst, just like Paladins have smite compared to more mundane martials. Sorcerers are already seen as lackluster, so if you're able to do a nice multiclass for a cool combo like that, then go ahead. Remember that you're also behind on spell progression.
That's actually a really good point. Sorcerers are a bit boned when it comes to progression and utility. They might have metamagic but that isn't free either.
I'll just toss out the Sorc 3/Fighter 2 or 3/Warlock 2 build. Warlock EB does damage like a longbow, and you can quicken spell it. At level 7 you can do 6 of them in a turn, and if you take a turn or two beforehand to prep a hex/hexblade curse it does some pretty nutty damage. After level 7 progressing down whichever you want, since each of them have relevant progression.
Going for Fighter 4 means you can grab Battlemaster for all the passive options for using it's superiority dice like initiative/skill checks. Also a feat, but going past 4 is questionable since EB just works better than extra attack.
Sorcerer is a full caster, and getting more slots for support stuff like Counterspelling, Slow, Catnap, etc. More points for metamagic too. Your single target burst is great, so you can try and shore up any party deficiencies.
Warlock is also sort of a full caster, and progressing can net you decent patron features and a pact boon. More Invocations means you can also buff your EB more to push/slow/300 ft range. If you get the pushing invocation, then if your burst can move creatures 10 ft 6 times in a row, which is great spacing and amazing synergy with spike growth.
And then a level 6 fighter can probably do some 5 attacks for 1d10 + 4 + 10 for each of those attacks.
I mean, your combo isn't really overpowered.
You can use sharpshooter but you are also lowering your actual average damage by roughly 25%, though that varies in importance based on enemy AC. Compare that to 6 attacks hitting at normal attack bonus of +7, each doing 1d10+4+1d6 along with the possibility of forced movement through a spike growth spell. If you are able to push them through an entire spike growth (4 hits assuming they are on the edge) that's 16d4 extra damage. You could also do more if you have both the push and pull since you can move them back and forth through it. Obviously that relies on some party synergy but I doubt a druid would be opposed to using a second level spell slot for that much damage. There is also the note that the build does a lot more than just the action surge + quickened combo.
You have the cantrips and first and second levels of a sorcerer, netting you key powerful spells for outside the combo like Web, Shield, Sleep, Fog Cloud, Hold Person, Misty Step, Shatter, Etc. That added utility shouldn't be disregarded. Same deal with warlock getting you stuff either from your patron or stuff like unseen servant or protection from good and evil. You also likely have a far better AC than a pure longbow fighter. Assuming half-plate at 14 dex you get 17, Add another +1 for defense fighting style (You could also realistically take Superior Technique from tasha's, and grab something more utility for a skill roll), and then +2 since you can use a shield in your off hand. 20 ac with no magic items and a 14 stat investment is pretty solid, and can easily go up to 25 to avoid hits using the shield spell.
Sorc 3, Fighter 2, Warlock 2 has Prof bonus of +3, no ASIs, so Charisma bonus +3, meaning +6 to hit, which is serviceable, but not excellent. Damage per Eldritch blast 1d10+3 (Average 8.5)
Archery Fighter 7 has prof bonus +3, and 2 ASIs, Archery fighting style, and either: +2 Dex and Sharpshooter (Dexterity bonus +4), or +4 Dex (Dexterity bonus +5), meaning either +9/+4 to hit, or +10 to hit. Damage per longbow 1d8+4 (Ave 8.5)/1d8+14 (Ave 18.5), or 1d8+5 (Ave 9.5).
Assuming 6 blasts for Action, Action Surge, Action, Quicken Spell vs 4 attacks for Action, Action Surge, Action.
AC
EB
LB + SS
LB
11
40.8
51.8
36.1
12
38.25
48.1
36.1
13
35.7
44.4
34.2
14
33.15
40.7
32.3
15
30.6
37
30.4
16
28.05
33.3
28.5
17
25.5
29.6
26.6
18
22.95
25.9
24.7
19
20.4
22.2
22.8
20
17.85
18.5
20.9
21
15.3
14.8
19
22
12.75
11.1
17.1
23
10.2
7.4
15.2
24
7.65
3.7
13.3
So fighter is quite comparable, without even using a bonus action. Yes, there aren't the potential pulls/pushes available, synergy with other classes, and your AC is likely going to be better, but for the particular scenario there is nothing OP about the combo presented.
+7 to hit is possible with custom lineage with the +2/+1 and a free feat at level 1 going to a half feat for another +1 charisma and the 15 from a standard array. The 18 charisma also gives another +1 damage per blast. I'd also toss out that accounting for hex damage setup from a previous turn would also be worth putting into the calculations as a round 2 nova boost.
Sure, the extra +1 to hit/damage does help, but you could also get the fighter to 20 dex and sharpshooter, which still outpaces the EB combo until AC21, at which point you turn off sharpshooter and then you're at parity at AC22 and back ahead at 23.
Hex definitely boosts damage significantly, but I deliberately excluded it because then you're using 3 resources (action surge, sorcery point, spell slot) to the fighter's 1. If we just chuck in something like Fighting Spirit then LB+SS is once again comfortably ahead for damage, and will go off in the first round of combat. Hex + EB does do more work over time, admittedly, but in terms of one round output it clearly shows that there' nothing OP about the combo.
Surely just dropping two fireballs would be equally devastating, and potentially more fun?
AC
EB
EB+Hex
LB
LB+SS
LB+Adv
LB+SS Adv
11
48.45
66.3
36.1
58.5
37.905
73.125
12
45.6
62.4
36.1
54.6
37.905
70.98
13
42.75
58.5
34.2
50.7
37.62
68.445
14
39.9
54.6
32.3
46.8
37.145
65.52
15
37.05
50.7
30.4
42.9
36.48
62.205
16
34.2
46.8
28.5
39
35.625
58.5
17
31.35
42.9
26.6
35.1
34.58
54.405
18
28.5
39
24.7
31.2
33.345
49.92
19
25.65
35.1
22.8
27.3
31.92
45.045
20
22.8
31.2
20.9
23.4
30.305
39.78
21
19.95
27.3
19
19.5
28.5
34.125
22
17.1
23.4
17.1
15.6
26.505
28.08
23
14.25
19.5
15.2
11.7
24.32
21.645
24
11.4
15.6
13.3
7.8
21.945
14.82
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
I'll just toss out the Sorc 3/Fighter 2 or 3/Warlock 2 build. Warlock EB does damage like a longbow, and you can quicken spell it. At level 7 you can do 6 of them in a turn, and if you take a turn or two beforehand to prep a hex/hexblade curse it does some pretty nutty damage. After level 7 progressing down whichever you want, since each of them have relevant progression.
Going for Fighter 4 means you can grab Battlemaster for all the passive options for using it's superiority dice like initiative/skill checks. Also a feat, but going past 4 is questionable since EB just works better than extra attack.
Sorcerer is a full caster, and getting more slots for support stuff like Counterspelling, Slow, Catnap, etc. More points for metamagic too. Your single target burst is great, so you can try and shore up any party deficiencies.
Warlock is also sort of a full caster, and progressing can net you decent patron features and a pact boon. More Invocations means you can also buff your EB more to push/slow/300 ft range. If you get the pushing invocation, then if your burst can move creatures 10 ft 6 times in a row, which is great spacing and amazing synergy with spike growth.
And then a level 6 fighter can probably do some 5 attacks for 1d10 + 4 + 10 for each of those attacks.
I mean, your combo isn't really overpowered.
Altrazin Aghanes - Wizard/Fighter
Varpulis Windhowl - Fighter
Skolson Demjon - Cleric/Fighter
You can use sharpshooter but you are also lowering your actual average damage by roughly 25%, though that varies in importance based on enemy AC. Compare that to 6 attacks hitting at normal attack bonus of +7, each doing 1d10+4+1d6 along with the possibility of forced movement through a spike growth spell. If you are able to push them through an entire spike growth (4 hits assuming they are on the edge) that's 16d4 extra damage. You could also do more if you have both the push and pull since you can move them back and forth through it. Obviously that relies on some party synergy but I doubt a druid would be opposed to using a second level spell slot for that much damage. There is also the note that the build does a lot more than just the action surge + quickened combo.
You have the cantrips and first and second levels of a sorcerer, netting you key powerful spells for outside the combo like Web, Shield, Sleep, Fog Cloud, Hold Person, Misty Step, Shatter, Etc. That added utility shouldn't be disregarded. Same deal with warlock getting you stuff either from your patron or stuff like unseen servant or protection from good and evil. You also likely have a far better AC than a pure longbow fighter. Assuming half-plate at 14 dex you get 17, Add another +1 for defense fighting style (You could also realistically take Superior Technique from tasha's, and grab something more utility for a skill roll), and then +2 since you can use a shield in your off hand. 20 ac with no magic items and a 14 stat investment is pretty solid, and can easily go up to 25 to avoid hits using the shield spell.
Correct me if I'm wrong.
Sorc 3, Fighter 2, Warlock 2 has Prof bonus of +3, no ASIs, so Charisma bonus +3, meaning +6 to hit, which is serviceable, but not excellent. Damage per Eldritch blast 1d10+3 (Average 8.5)
Archery Fighter 7 has prof bonus +3, and 2 ASIs, Archery fighting style, and either: +2 Dex and Sharpshooter (Dexterity bonus +4), or +4 Dex (Dexterity bonus +5), meaning either +9/+4 to hit, or +10 to hit. Damage per longbow 1d8+4 (Ave 8.5)/1d8+14 (Ave 18.5), or 1d8+5 (Ave 9.5).
Assuming 6 blasts for Action, Action Surge, Action, Quicken Spell vs 4 attacks for Action, Action Surge, Action.
So fighter is quite comparable, without even using a bonus action. Yes, there aren't the potential pulls/pushes available, synergy with other classes, and your AC is likely going to be better, but for the particular scenario there is nothing OP about the combo presented.
+7 to hit is possible with custom lineage with the +2/+1 and a free feat at level 1 going to a half feat for another +1 charisma and the 15 from a standard array. The 18 charisma also gives another +1 damage per blast. I'd also toss out that accounting for hex damage setup from a previous turn would also be worth putting into the calculations as a round 2 nova boost.
Sure, the extra +1 to hit/damage does help, but you could also get the fighter to 20 dex and sharpshooter, which still outpaces the EB combo until AC21, at which point you turn off sharpshooter and then you're at parity at AC22 and back ahead at 23.
Hex definitely boosts damage significantly, but I deliberately excluded it because then you're using 3 resources (action surge, sorcery point, spell slot) to the fighter's 1. If we just chuck in something like Fighting Spirit then LB+SS is once again comfortably ahead for damage, and will go off in the first round of combat. Hex + EB does do more work over time, admittedly, but in terms of one round output it clearly shows that there' nothing OP about the combo.
Surely just dropping two fireballs would be equally devastating, and potentially more fun?