Sounds about right... except Slow Fall doesn't reduce falling damage.
It only reduces falling damage that the monk takes.
In order to figure out how much damage he takes you have to figure out if it's split or not.
Once you know if the monk is taking the full falling damage or just half from it being split.
When all that is done, then the Slow Fall of the monk only reduces damage that is dealt to the monk.
The other creature takes half of the full amount if it fails it's saving throw. The monk's Slow Fall ability doesn't reduce some other creature's damage... nice try. lol
So your excuse for what it doesn't work. Is now not the order of operations. Which actually supports Jounichi. But the wording of an ability written before the rule you want to use actually existed. Even though the Rule your trying to use actually changes the wording that your relying on?
Because here's the Thing. Not only is Jounichi right in the order. But the Rule that we're talking about introduced in Tasha's changes the wording of who takes the damage when it's finally applied. Changing it from The Monk that is mentioned in the slow fall ability to the Monk and Another person when the damage is applied after it has been fully calculated, which means that Slow fall has been already applied to it, and if the one you fell on failed their saving throw. But you still somehow want the power to apply only to the monk after how it's been changed by another rule.
Edit: By the Way. Your First and Second Sentence are completely contradictory. If it doesn't reduce falling damage (which it does) then it doesn't matter who is taking it to reduce the falling damage. So your first statement technically contradicts and invalidates your second statement. But your First statement is wrong and your Second Statement is actually partially incorrect as I've explained.
Sounds about right... except Slow Fall doesn't reduce falling damage.
It only reduces falling damage that the monk takes.
In order to figure out how much damage he takes you have to figure out if it's split or not.
Once you know if the monk is taking the full falling damage or just half from it being split.
When all that is done, then the Slow Fall of the monk only reduces damage that is dealt to the monk.
The other creature takes half of the full amount if it fails it's saving throw. The monk's Slow Fall ability doesn't reduce some other creature's damage... nice try. lol
Maybe you're confused.
In this example, the amount of falling damage dealt will always be the monk's, by default. Whether or not the damage is shared is up to whether or not the impacted character is actually impacted. They can succeed in their saving throw and avoid the split entirely.
But let's say they don't.
The monk is still using Slow Fall to reduce the damage they're supposed to suffer from the dice. And that slowed fall is going to reduce the damage both parties suffer; should the monk be an impactee.
You're using the slow fall to reduce the overall falling damage... that's not what slow fall does.
That is precisely what Slow Fall does. Remember, timing is everything. The trigger for Slow Fall is when the monk is falling, not after they've fallen and impacted. In other words, the trigger is not when they take damage at the end of the fall.
This means the damage reduction takes place before damage is even rolled.
And this, in turn, lessens the damage that can be divided between the monk and the impacted character.
If the monk could reduce damage to others with his slow fall then he and a party could jump off a cliff and he could prevent the fall damage they would all take.
You need to apply all 3 rules, the falling rule, the 'pancake' or 'splat' rule for landing on someone after a fall, AND the monk's slow fall rule.
This is false equivalency. The Monk could never effect somebody elses fall because of their power with what we are saying. The only way they could reduce damage from somebody elses fall is by the way that your applying the rule.
I'll give an example.
By your way of doing the rule. The monk can jump down first. They can use slow fall to remove their own damage. And then they can effectively be used as a landing pad and let others fall on them. Reducing the Damage for everybody by outright having damage by choosing to fail their dex save. And then applying their Slow Fall Ability to remove falling damage that lands on them potentially leaving them unharmed and the person that fell on them taking dramatically less damage.
However. What we are telling you is that it does not work this way. How it actually works is that the Monk Must be Falling to use the Ability and they use their ability to reduce the damage before they ever technically have damage to reduce. This is because it is triggered by the Fall and Not by the damage. Much like the Shield you mentioned is triggered when you get hit and Not by the Damage of the blow. Both Activate before Damage is ever figured out. This is a very important detail. Because this means your actively slowing your fall before you ever get hurt or even know the damage that your going to take and this is how you are reducing your damage in whatever way that you want to describe it. They are not in fact acting to reduce the Damage after it is taken.
What this all Means is that the Monk is applying it's reduction of damage no matter where it lands or what ever else effects it's damage, or even who else the monks falling damage can be applied to. And this damage reduction comes into play in the order of activation before damage is Applied. Not after. The total damage the monk takes is not the base damage of the fall that you roll. The Damage that is applied is the damage after all of the modifiers are applied such as Reduce Fall. Reduce Fall is actually the first thing you apply to the damage rolled in order of operations. It reduces the damage before even things like Resistances, immunities, and all of that. The Falling rule at best kicks in when your applying resistance and immunities and at worst only kicks in at the very end when the Monk is actually taking their damage by splitting it with the person they landed on because the Rule that exists is basically just one of the final damage mitigation values that you apply as your altering your hp to it's new lower value. This is well after Slow Fall has been applied.
What really sucks for the Monk is that there is a decent chance that the person you land on is actually going to have reductions applied when they take damage. Not when an action that can later deal damage triggers. Things like Damage resistance is triggered at the time of applying the damage itself. Which is a big difference Between how Slow Fall works and any power that gives damage resistance. This means that the person you land on might actually have their damage reduced further. But the Monk because the damage reduction is triggered like shield does not get this benefit. Slow Fall would not work if you are landed on because it's not the falling damage that triggers it. It's the active issue of the monk Falling.
And Trust me. I wish it worked the way you wanted it to work. I wish it was the Damage that triggered it. Not because it would work only on the monk like your hoping to turn this into a movement based attack. But because it would be useful to apply it on falling damage as a defense from others. I don't want to deal with the issues of trying to convince or having a player trying to convince me that a player falling on them is a missile object they want to try to deflect Or simply stop their fall so that you'd be able to catch somebody and hopefully save their life. Because there are plenty of times where even half damage would have been enough to stop a fall from being fatal and save issues like having to resurrect the person.
While I get that because no resources are spent to perform slow fall, I always imagined slow fall as being mystical in nature as opposed to a physical control of one's fall. No amount of physical training prevents you from walking away from a 50 foot fall without taking damage. It's more akin to the kungfu or ninja movies where people are literally leaping from building to building.
As RAW, I think damage would be based on the overall damage that a character took from the fall, after damage reduction from slow fall is calculated..
...however as a house rule at my table, provided that this fit the naraticr of the monk, I would convert the reduced fall damage from slow fall or ignore the slow fall damage when applying damage to the creature to the creature the monk landed on. Just because flavor text looks awesome
The 3 rules I'm referring to are roughly as follows.
1. falling damage is 1d6 per 10 feet.
2. if you fall on a target and it fails it's saving throw total falling damage is split evenly.
3. the monk can reduce any falling damage the monk would take.
your way you break the 3rd rule by having the monk reduce damage that would be split, essentially reducing damage to another creature
my way all 3 rules are followed.
Just to add onto this, it isnt the damage the monk "would take" or "could take" (potential damage), as the ability is written its the damage the monk "takes" (i.e as the damage occurs, after it is rolled). So it cannot reduce damage it has not yet taken (during fall before impact). It cannot reduce the damage before it is dealt and therefor cannot reduce the damage before it is split between each creature (as that happens a step before damage is dealt)
The 3 rules I'm referring to are roughly as follows.
1. falling damage is 1d6 per 10 feet.
2. if you fall on a target and it fails it's saving throw total falling damage is split evenly.
3. the monk can reduce any falling damage the monk would take.
your way you break the 3rd rule by having the monk reduce damage that would be split, essentially reducing damage to another creature
my way all 3 rules are followed.
Just to add onto this, it isnt the damage the monk "would take" or "could take" (potential damage), as the ability is written its the damage the monk "takes" (i.e as the damage occurs, after it is rolled). So it cannot reduce damage it has not yet taken (during fall before impact). It cannot reduce the damage before it is dealt and therefor cannot reduce the damage before it is split between each creature (as that happens a step before damage is dealt)
Falling is a near-instantaneous process. Falling from a great height, for example, is 500 feet per round. But the trigger for Slow Fall is when the monk falls, not when they take damage. It's something they do before the impact and before damage would be assessed.
The 3 rules I'm referring to are roughly as follows.
1. falling damage is 1d6 per 10 feet.
2. if you fall on a target and it fails it's saving throw total falling damage is split evenly.
3. the monk can reduce any falling damage the monk would take.
your way you break the 3rd rule by having the monk reduce damage that would be split, essentially reducing damage to another creature
my way all 3 rules are followed.
No. the 3rd rule is not broken the way we do it. The Monks Falling Damage is reduced either way.
Again your fitting together "rules" to fit the scenario you are choosing to back. you are also changing the order of operations to support that scenario.
The slow fall ability must be triggered when the monk first begins to fall as a reaction but the damage is not dealt to the monk until after we determine if he is taking half or full as the victim might make his save.
The rules doesn't actually say this. It just says "when you fall" which ambivalent enough to allow you to do it basically any time during the fall. Especially if you fall for multiple turns. If you consider Slow Fall to be some sort cushioned roll/falling technique, it makes even more sense. But this is pretty much up to the DM.
Some or all of the monk's falling damage is reduced either way.
But if you reduce the falling damage before the monk takes any and then split it you are reducing falling damage that the victim (pancake) is taking... and the monk's slow fall ability can't do this.
It can only reduce the falling damage that the monk takes... not that's generated or calculated or anything else... only the damage the monk takes... not the damage he splits.
Whether it is all the damage or just his half from being split, when you go to apply damage to each of the creatures involved, the monk's slow fall only reduces the damage the monk actually ends up taking.
If the victim makes his save he takes no damage, if the victim fails his save he takes half of the full amount of falling damage since the monk's ability doesn't say anything about reducing any falling damage that someone else takes.
The monk's damage is reduced, either way, so you're going to have to explain why Slow Fall can only reduce the damage for the monk and not whomever they're falling on. We're talking about an optional rule published some six years after the PHB.
Beginning at 4th level, you can use your reaction when you fall to reduce any falling damage you take by an amount equal to five times your monk level.
The slow fall doesn't reduce the damage generated from the fall.
However many feet you fall you have to determine how much damage the monk will take from the fall.
With this newer rule about landing on a target you have to determine if the falling damage will be split or not.
Once you know if the monk is taking full damage (say 21 points of bludgeoning damage) or he is splitting it with the victim and only taking half.
You have to determine how much damage the monk is taking... the victim will take half of the total falling damage if he takes anything (fails a saving throw)... but the monk will reduce any falling damage the monk takes... and only reduce the damage the monk takes.
It's sort of like the Barbarian's resistance to damage, that also only affects the damage the Barbarian takes... not any victims he lands on.
The monk's slow fall doesn't reduce the overall falling damage being generated by the fall.
The monk's slow fall does reduce any damage from the fall that he alone takes.
Falling onto a Creature
If a creature falls into the space of a second creature and neither of them is Tiny, the second creature must succeed on a DC 15 Dexterity saving throw or be impacted by the falling creature, and any damage resulting from the fall is divided evenly between them. The impacted creature is also knocked prone, unless it is two or more sizes larger than the falling creature.
this does not work. Slow fall is part of determining how much damage the monk takes. Which is what we have been trying to tell you.
The Target takes half of what the monk takes. However. Slow Fall reduces the damage the monk takes. And is applied on steps of calculating the damage. Not taking the damage where you are trying to use it. Slow fall is not triggered by the Damage. It is triggered by the fall. it uses your reaction to use it but doesn't cost any limited resources so it's effectively unlimited except in rare circumstances where you somehow manage to fall twice or fall after using your reaction already which should be notably rare but not impossible.
Nothing else about what your listing here in any way contradicts what we are saying.
This new Rule doesn't change order of operations. It's place in operations is after Slow Fall has already been used and already taken effect.
you use the world only repeatedly in all of your posts. However, the word only does not appear anywhere in the Slow Fall Ability or the ruling in Tasha's. So there is nothing broken about either by having Slow Fall affect both parties if you choose to use it.
The ruling is only a transfer of damage after the damage has been calculated. It is not a Damage Calculation modifier itself. It even supports the idea of Slow Fall reducing Damage for the one landed on by using the words "Resulting from the Fall" Meaning after all damage calculation issues have been resolved, which includes Slow Fall.
Edit: Also. Touching on Barbarians. Other than the fact that they trigger very differently. The Barbarian's ability triggering specifically at taking damage and not simply any particular kind of action changes things a bit. But this does open a bit of a grey area door that the Barbarians Damage Resistance might actually reduce the damage for both. Nothing about why it happens is made clear so there could be some supernatural effect that reduces it both for the barbarian and the one fallen on because of the order of operations that things go in. Though this is less of an issue because the circumstances where a Barbarian is going to be falling but having Rage Already active is going to be rare. Rage to get the damage reduction cannot be activated when one is already falling. So if they fell without rage then the damage reduction from Rage does not matter at all for any of the calculations and it takes a particular set of circumstances to create a fall where it is on for it to matter. So this ultimately becomes a bad comparison example because of various differences in circumstances.
Beginning at 4th level, you can use your reaction when you fall to reduce any falling damage you take by an amount equal to five times your monk level.
The slow fall doesn't reduce the damage generated from the fall.
However many feet you fall you have to determine how much damage the monk will take from the fall.
With this newer rule about landing on a target you have to determine if the falling damage will be split or not.
Once you know if the monk is taking full damage (say 21 points of bludgeoning damage) or he is splitting it with the victim and only taking half.
You have to determine how much damage the monk is taking... the victim will take half of the total falling damage if he takes anything (fails a saving throw)... but the monk will reduce any falling damage the monk takes... and only reduce the damage the monk takes.
It's sort of like the Barbarian's resistance to damage, that also only affects the damage the Barbarian takes... not any victims he lands on.
The monk's slow fall doesn't reduce the overall falling damage being generated by the fall.
The monk's slow fall does reduce any damage from the fall that he alone takes.
Falling onto a Creature
If a creature falls into the space of a second creature and neither of them is Tiny, the second creature must succeed on a DC 15 Dexterity saving throw or be impacted by the falling creature, and any damage resulting from the fall is divided evenly between them. The impacted creature is also knocked prone, unless it is two or more sizes larger than the falling creature.
You're inventing context. "Generated from the fall" isn't something that appears anywhere.
The trigger for Slow Fall is "when you fall," not when you would hit the ground, and certainly not when you would take damage. And the damage total belongs to the falling monk. It only exists because they're falling. And whether it can be shared or not is wholly dependent on another creature. Which is just another way of reducing damage even further.
Regardless of when Slow Fall is allowed to take place "in the stack," it will always reduce the damage the monk takes. You just want to weaponize it to a point of ludicrousness.
The monk is still coming out ahead. You do get that, right?
Okay.. this going to come down to how you interpret Slow fall, as the if the rules arent going to change your mind, you need to visualize it and see if your DM agrees with you.
SLOW FALL, in most people's minds, is affecting the speed at which you descend or fall at. You use your Ki to reduce the speed you are falling (I imagine a cat jumping out of a 6 story building), hence where the fall damage is reduced is in the fall velocity . Remember a full round is 6 seconds, so falling 3 or 4 seconds later in that round is still a lot of damage taken off.
The other image, which i think you are using, is the Super Hero landing, in which you fall at the same speed, but use your Ki to reduce the damage impact from the fall... but they are still falling at the same speed the entire time.
If you want to use the second option, I think your approach to calculating damage is fine.. but I don't think this is how the ability is described as, let alone what the description is intended for. I have not seen a sage rule for this, so ask your DM if he wanted to play it this way. I think most people are in agreement that the design and description lends to the first scenario, and not the second
The monk's slow fall is not a damage calculation... it is a damage reduction that only applies to the monk so it applied last and only to the monk's damage that the monk would take.
So the order I posted before still stands. 1. Fall damage. 2. Split. 3. Reduction to monk's damage only from slow fall.
The barbarian can rage and dive when under 500 feet... or fall from higher than 500 feet and on the round he enters the 500 to 1,000 foot range he can rage and next round he would hit. If that timing is off, just used the right timing to ready an action to rage when within 500 feet of the ground.
This is wrong. Slow Fall is part of the Damage Calculation exactly because it is a Damage Reduction ability. Those are a big part of calculating the damage They matter before even things like Resistances do because they actually affect how much resistances take off by a different amount and thus come first when calculating damage. Your insistence on separating them and again using the word Only when it does not appear in any of the actual rulings your trying to create it from Doesn't mean that either of these things actually exist in the rules.
Also. Your example of over 500 feet doesn't actually matter. It's just another detail that makes it an even less likely scenario to happen. Which again makes it a bad comparison.
Also. your mention of readying the Rage does not work. Raging is a Bonus Action and Bonus Actions cannot actually be readied. They have to be full actions to be usable with readying an action. This is more trying to shoe horn things in where they don't really belong to make it all work.
I've been following this thread for a while and this is how this would work:
"If a creature falls into the space of a second creature and neither of them is Tiny, the second creature must succeed on a DC 15 Dexterity saving throw or be impacted by the falling creature, and any damage resulting from the fall is divided evenly between them. The impacted creature is also knocked prone, unless it is two or more sizes larger than the falling creature."
Damage is divided between the 2 creatures, easy.
"Beginning at 4th level, you can use your reaction when you fall to reduce any falling damage you take by an amount equal to five times your monk level."
The reduction applies to the damage You take, not the other person, plus the damage is divided instantly, so it doesn't matter.
Also, just having fun here, a Monk gets falled on, they could, as RAW, reduce the damage they take.
EDIT: damage is reduced then split, I was wrong, though the second is RAW, but not RAI and is quite nonsensical when you think about it.
I've been following this thread for a while and this is how this would work:
"If a creature falls into the space of a second creature and neither of them is Tiny, the second creature must succeed on a DC 15 Dexterity saving throw or be impacted by the falling creature, and any damage resulting from the fall is divided evenly between them. The impacted creature is also knocked prone, unless it is two or more sizes larger than the falling creature."
Damage is divided between the 2 creatures, easy.
"Beginning at 4th level, you can use your reaction when you fall to reduce any falling damage you take by an amount equal to five times your monk level."
The reduction applies to the damage You take, not the other person, plus the damage is divided instantly, so it doesn't matter.
Also, just having fun here, a Monk gets falled on, they could, as RAW, reduce the damage they take.
Regardless of when Slow Fall is applied, the monk still decreases the damage they suffer. You can't hold an optional rule written six years after the initial publication against it.
And no, a monk cannot use Slow Fall to reduce the damage they would suffer should another creature fall on top of them. It expressly requires the monk falling in order to trigger.
Although the ability is called Slow Fall, nothing in it says the rate at which you fall is affected in any way.
You do not slow down. You still fall at the same speed and still calculate damage as 1d6 for each 10 feet fallen.
Most of what everyone is saying in all these posts is the same thing, except for 1 key fact. The monk's ability reduces damage the monk takes. If this is applied before the split you are actually reducing damage that another creature is taking and nowhere in slow fall does it say this is possible. If you apply the monk's slow fall ability to reduce damage to the monk resulting from falling only when the monk would be taking the damage, then the monk's ability to reduce falling damage the monk takes would not break any other rule and not reduce a single point of damage to the 2nd creature (the one who got landed on and took half of the full calculated falling damage, with nothing reduced).
(Forgot about the rage thing for barbarians, they can't ready that. But they could rage and then dive off something more than 10 feet but less than 500 feet high, there should be lots of things in just about every game in existence that meet those conditions.)
The logical fallacy here is Slow Fall wouldn't say anything about reducing the damage the impacted character would take because that optional rule didn't exist at the time. The place to look would be in the rule for Falling onto a Creature, and 5E simply hasn't been written with the granularity you demand.
Let's actually pose a hypothetical scenario. Say a 5th-level monk is falling 100 feet for 10d6 damage. That averages out to 35 damage. So, with Slow Fall they would reduce the damage by 25 and only suffer 10 damage.
Camp A is arguing Slow Fall triggers when the fall begins, not when damage is suffered. The impacted character splits the damage with the monk. Both suffer 5 damage (before Damage Resistance) and fall prone.
Camp B is arguing Slow Fall triggers when damage is suffered (which is not RAW) and can only reduce damage for the monk (which isn't explicitly stated anywhere). The impacted character splits the original 35 damage to take 17 damage and is knocked prone. The monk takes no damage and remains upright; presumably standing atop the fallen character.
In both cases, Slow Fall reduces the damage suffered by the monk. In both cases, the monk further reduces the damage suffered by falling onto another creature.
Beginning at 4th level, you can use your reaction when you fall to reduce any falling damage you take by an amount equal to five times your monk level.
those last 2 words of the highlighted red always make me think the monk can only reduce the damage it takes.
to find out what the monk takes you have to apply this new rule that gives the 2nd target a save to avoid being hit.
the reason to calculate how much damage the monk takes is because the monk has an ability called slow fall that reduces damage it takes from falling.
with the new rule the monk might take all the falling damage or just half.
once the save is made or failed you know how much each is taking and then the monk's slow fall ability that was triggered by falling and announced by the player way back at the beginning of all this can now be used because we know how much the monk is taking.
the monk only reduces falling damage that the monk takes
Here's the problem.
Your focused on those last two words in red. The same exact two words that appear in the rule your trying to state the ability doesn't apply to. It says the Damage you take is Split.
Slow Fall says that it reduces the Damage you Take.
Notice that neither rule says only in any way what so ever. But they both use the same words.
The Damage you cause to another is based upon the damage that you take. The damage you take is reduced by slow fall. These two things are not exclusionary. They do not say only. They do not make changes to the order of operations. They are two things working on the exact same thing.
But here is the thing your ignoring constantly even though we have repeated it over and over again. There is nothing in the order of operations or the Rule Anywhere that says that you have to find out if you split the damage First for Slow Fall to Work. Absolutely Nothing. It does not care about the splitting of the damage. It does not even care how much damage you take. It just hard reduces it by a set amount with a maximum of turning it into 0 damage regardless of the full amount it could potentially reduce as indicated by the words "up to" when talking about the damage that you take. Slow Fall never cares about the amount of damage that could result from a fall in fact. Or even trigger by the Damage. It only triggers by the fall and the expenditure of a Reaction. And it reduces the damage whether it is 1d6 or 20d6. It does not know the difference. It does not care. It doesn't even care who ultimately takes the damage once it's done it's job. it only is something that triggers and part of calculating the damage. Immediately after you roll the damage dice you apply it's effect. That is all.
The Damage that you take however DOES affect the rule about falling on another person however. It Clearly states that if the dex save is failed That the Damage the other person takes is directly and outright congruent with the amount of damage that the Monk takes. Being half that of what the monk takes while the monk takes the other half. This is the ability that cares about what the damage is calculated out to. it is not itself a Damage calculation. It is simply an affect that says how the total outcome is applied, Which Slow Fall does not do or care about. This ability is the one that cares what the damage number is and how it is applied and states specific rules on applying it after the calculation is already done. which means slow fall has done it's job.
We have said this many times. But you focus on words in slow fall like they are somehow unique. They are not. They are in fact mirrored in the falling rule. And the Falling rule then makes an exception of Specificity to falling damage. You also have a propensity to add words through implication to what slow fall is saying. Even though those words are not there.
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So your excuse for what it doesn't work. Is now not the order of operations. Which actually supports Jounichi. But the wording of an ability written before the rule you want to use actually existed. Even though the Rule your trying to use actually changes the wording that your relying on?
Because here's the Thing. Not only is Jounichi right in the order. But the Rule that we're talking about introduced in Tasha's changes the wording of who takes the damage when it's finally applied. Changing it from The Monk that is mentioned in the slow fall ability to the Monk and Another person when the damage is applied after it has been fully calculated, which means that Slow fall has been already applied to it, and if the one you fell on failed their saving throw. But you still somehow want the power to apply only to the monk after how it's been changed by another rule.
Edit: By the Way. Your First and Second Sentence are completely contradictory. If it doesn't reduce falling damage (which it does) then it doesn't matter who is taking it to reduce the falling damage. So your first statement technically contradicts and invalidates your second statement. But your First statement is wrong and your Second Statement is actually partially incorrect as I've explained.
Maybe you're confused.
In this example, the amount of falling damage dealt will always be the monk's, by default. Whether or not the damage is shared is up to whether or not the impacted character is actually impacted. They can succeed in their saving throw and avoid the split entirely.
But let's say they don't.
The monk is still using Slow Fall to reduce the damage they're supposed to suffer from the dice. And that slowed fall is going to reduce the damage both parties suffer; should the monk be an impactee.
That is precisely what Slow Fall does. Remember, timing is everything. The trigger for Slow Fall is when the monk is falling, not after they've fallen and impacted. In other words, the trigger is not when they take damage at the end of the fall.
This means the damage reduction takes place before damage is even rolled.
And this, in turn, lessens the damage that can be divided between the monk and the impacted character.
This is false equivalency. The Monk could never effect somebody elses fall because of their power with what we are saying. The only way they could reduce damage from somebody elses fall is by the way that your applying the rule.
I'll give an example.
By your way of doing the rule. The monk can jump down first. They can use slow fall to remove their own damage. And then they can effectively be used as a landing pad and let others fall on them. Reducing the Damage for everybody by outright having damage by choosing to fail their dex save. And then applying their Slow Fall Ability to remove falling damage that lands on them potentially leaving them unharmed and the person that fell on them taking dramatically less damage.
However. What we are telling you is that it does not work this way. How it actually works is that the Monk Must be Falling to use the Ability and they use their ability to reduce the damage before they ever technically have damage to reduce. This is because it is triggered by the Fall and Not by the damage. Much like the Shield you mentioned is triggered when you get hit and Not by the Damage of the blow. Both Activate before Damage is ever figured out. This is a very important detail. Because this means your actively slowing your fall before you ever get hurt or even know the damage that your going to take and this is how you are reducing your damage in whatever way that you want to describe it. They are not in fact acting to reduce the Damage after it is taken.
What this all Means is that the Monk is applying it's reduction of damage no matter where it lands or what ever else effects it's damage, or even who else the monks falling damage can be applied to. And this damage reduction comes into play in the order of activation before damage is Applied. Not after. The total damage the monk takes is not the base damage of the fall that you roll. The Damage that is applied is the damage after all of the modifiers are applied such as Reduce Fall. Reduce Fall is actually the first thing you apply to the damage rolled in order of operations. It reduces the damage before even things like Resistances, immunities, and all of that. The Falling rule at best kicks in when your applying resistance and immunities and at worst only kicks in at the very end when the Monk is actually taking their damage by splitting it with the person they landed on because the Rule that exists is basically just one of the final damage mitigation values that you apply as your altering your hp to it's new lower value. This is well after Slow Fall has been applied.
What really sucks for the Monk is that there is a decent chance that the person you land on is actually going to have reductions applied when they take damage. Not when an action that can later deal damage triggers. Things like Damage resistance is triggered at the time of applying the damage itself. Which is a big difference Between how Slow Fall works and any power that gives damage resistance. This means that the person you land on might actually have their damage reduced further. But the Monk because the damage reduction is triggered like shield does not get this benefit. Slow Fall would not work if you are landed on because it's not the falling damage that triggers it. It's the active issue of the monk Falling.
And Trust me. I wish it worked the way you wanted it to work. I wish it was the Damage that triggered it. Not because it would work only on the monk like your hoping to turn this into a movement based attack. But because it would be useful to apply it on falling damage as a defense from others. I don't want to deal with the issues of trying to convince or having a player trying to convince me that a player falling on them is a missile object they want to try to deflect Or simply stop their fall so that you'd be able to catch somebody and hopefully save their life. Because there are plenty of times where even half damage would have been enough to stop a fall from being fatal and save issues like having to resurrect the person.
While I get that because no resources are spent to perform slow fall, I always imagined slow fall as being mystical in nature as opposed to a physical control of one's fall. No amount of physical training prevents you from walking away from a 50 foot fall without taking damage. It's more akin to the kungfu or ninja movies where people are literally leaping from building to building.
As RAW, I think damage would be based on the overall damage that a character took from the fall, after damage reduction from slow fall is calculated..
...however as a house rule at my table, provided that this fit the naraticr of the monk, I would convert the reduced fall damage from slow fall or ignore the slow fall damage when applying damage to the creature to the creature the monk landed on. Just because flavor text looks awesome
Your Three Rules don't exist in the game. So it's no wonder when they aren't broken when you make them to fit your stance.
Just to add onto this, it isnt the damage the monk "would take" or "could take" (potential damage), as the ability is written its the damage the monk "takes" (i.e as the damage occurs, after it is rolled). So it cannot reduce damage it has not yet taken (during fall before impact). It cannot reduce the damage before it is dealt and therefor cannot reduce the damage before it is split between each creature (as that happens a step before damage is dealt)
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Falling is a near-instantaneous process. Falling from a great height, for example, is 500 feet per round. But the trigger for Slow Fall is when the monk falls, not when they take damage. It's something they do before the impact and before damage would be assessed.
No. the 3rd rule is not broken the way we do it. The Monks Falling Damage is reduced either way.
Again your fitting together "rules" to fit the scenario you are choosing to back. you are also changing the order of operations to support that scenario.
The rules doesn't actually say this. It just says "when you fall" which ambivalent enough to allow you to do it basically any time during the fall. Especially if you fall for multiple turns. If you consider Slow Fall to be some sort cushioned roll/falling technique, it makes even more sense. But this is pretty much up to the DM.
[Edit. Removing my comment. I'm out. This conversation is just going in circles at this point ]
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The monk's damage is reduced, either way, so you're going to have to explain why Slow Fall can only reduce the damage for the monk and not whomever they're falling on. We're talking about an optional rule published some six years after the PHB.
this does not work. Slow fall is part of determining how much damage the monk takes. Which is what we have been trying to tell you.
The Target takes half of what the monk takes. However. Slow Fall reduces the damage the monk takes. And is applied on steps of calculating the damage. Not taking the damage where you are trying to use it. Slow fall is not triggered by the Damage. It is triggered by the fall. it uses your reaction to use it but doesn't cost any limited resources so it's effectively unlimited except in rare circumstances where you somehow manage to fall twice or fall after using your reaction already which should be notably rare but not impossible.
Nothing else about what your listing here in any way contradicts what we are saying.
This new Rule doesn't change order of operations. It's place in operations is after Slow Fall has already been used and already taken effect.
you use the world only repeatedly in all of your posts. However, the word only does not appear anywhere in the Slow Fall Ability or the ruling in Tasha's. So there is nothing broken about either by having Slow Fall affect both parties if you choose to use it.
The ruling is only a transfer of damage after the damage has been calculated. It is not a Damage Calculation modifier itself. It even supports the idea of Slow Fall reducing Damage for the one landed on by using the words "Resulting from the Fall" Meaning after all damage calculation issues have been resolved, which includes Slow Fall.
Edit: Also. Touching on Barbarians. Other than the fact that they trigger very differently. The Barbarian's ability triggering specifically at taking damage and not simply any particular kind of action changes things a bit. But this does open a bit of a grey area door that the Barbarians Damage Resistance might actually reduce the damage for both. Nothing about why it happens is made clear so there could be some supernatural effect that reduces it both for the barbarian and the one fallen on because of the order of operations that things go in. Though this is less of an issue because the circumstances where a Barbarian is going to be falling but having Rage Already active is going to be rare. Rage to get the damage reduction cannot be activated when one is already falling. So if they fell without rage then the damage reduction from Rage does not matter at all for any of the calculations and it takes a particular set of circumstances to create a fall where it is on for it to matter. So this ultimately becomes a bad comparison example because of various differences in circumstances.
You're inventing context. "Generated from the fall" isn't something that appears anywhere.
The trigger for Slow Fall is "when you fall," not when you would hit the ground, and certainly not when you would take damage. And the damage total belongs to the falling monk. It only exists because they're falling. And whether it can be shared or not is wholly dependent on another creature. Which is just another way of reducing damage even further.
Regardless of when Slow Fall is allowed to take place "in the stack," it will always reduce the damage the monk takes. You just want to weaponize it to a point of ludicrousness.
The monk is still coming out ahead. You do get that, right?
Okay.. this going to come down to how you interpret Slow fall, as the if the rules arent going to change your mind, you need to visualize it and see if your DM agrees with you.
SLOW FALL, in most people's minds, is affecting the speed at which you descend or fall at. You use your Ki to reduce the speed you are falling (I imagine a cat jumping out of a 6 story building), hence where the fall damage is reduced is in the fall velocity . Remember a full round is 6 seconds, so falling 3 or 4 seconds later in that round is still a lot of damage taken off.
The other image, which i think you are using, is the Super Hero landing, in which you fall at the same speed, but use your Ki to reduce the damage impact from the fall... but they are still falling at the same speed the entire time.
If you want to use the second option, I think your approach to calculating damage is fine.. but I don't think this is how the ability is described as, let alone what the description is intended for. I have not seen a sage rule for this, so ask your DM if he wanted to play it this way. I think most people are in agreement that the design and description lends to the first scenario, and not the second
This is wrong. Slow Fall is part of the Damage Calculation exactly because it is a Damage Reduction ability. Those are a big part of calculating the damage They matter before even things like Resistances do because they actually affect how much resistances take off by a different amount and thus come first when calculating damage. Your insistence on separating them and again using the word Only when it does not appear in any of the actual rulings your trying to create it from Doesn't mean that either of these things actually exist in the rules.
Also. Your example of over 500 feet doesn't actually matter. It's just another detail that makes it an even less likely scenario to happen. Which again makes it a bad comparison.
Also. your mention of readying the Rage does not work. Raging is a Bonus Action and Bonus Actions cannot actually be readied. They have to be full actions to be usable with readying an action. This is more trying to shoe horn things in where they don't really belong to make it all work.
I've been following this thread for a while and this is how this would work:
Damage is divided between the 2 creatures, easy.The reduction applies to the damage You take, not the other person, plus the damage is divided instantly, so it doesn't matter.Also, just having fun here, a Monk gets falled on, they could, as RAW, reduce the damage they take.
EDIT: damage is reduced then split, I was wrong, though the second is RAW, but not RAI and is quite nonsensical when you think about it.
Mystic v3 should be official, nuff said.
Regardless of when Slow Fall is applied, the monk still decreases the damage they suffer. You can't hold an optional rule written six years after the initial publication against it.
And no, a monk cannot use Slow Fall to reduce the damage they would suffer should another creature fall on top of them. It expressly requires the monk falling in order to trigger.
The logical fallacy here is Slow Fall wouldn't say anything about reducing the damage the impacted character would take because that optional rule didn't exist at the time. The place to look would be in the rule for Falling onto a Creature, and 5E simply hasn't been written with the granularity you demand.
Let's actually pose a hypothetical scenario. Say a 5th-level monk is falling 100 feet for 10d6 damage. That averages out to 35 damage. So, with Slow Fall they would reduce the damage by 25 and only suffer 10 damage.
In both cases, Slow Fall reduces the damage suffered by the monk. In both cases, the monk further reduces the damage suffered by falling onto another creature.
So, which sounds more reasonable?
Here's the problem.
Your focused on those last two words in red. The same exact two words that appear in the rule your trying to state the ability doesn't apply to. It says the Damage you take is Split.
Slow Fall says that it reduces the Damage you Take.
Notice that neither rule says only in any way what so ever. But they both use the same words.
The Damage you cause to another is based upon the damage that you take. The damage you take is reduced by slow fall. These two things are not exclusionary. They do not say only. They do not make changes to the order of operations. They are two things working on the exact same thing.
But here is the thing your ignoring constantly even though we have repeated it over and over again. There is nothing in the order of operations or the Rule Anywhere that says that you have to find out if you split the damage First for Slow Fall to Work. Absolutely Nothing. It does not care about the splitting of the damage. It does not even care how much damage you take. It just hard reduces it by a set amount with a maximum of turning it into 0 damage regardless of the full amount it could potentially reduce as indicated by the words "up to" when talking about the damage that you take. Slow Fall never cares about the amount of damage that could result from a fall in fact. Or even trigger by the Damage. It only triggers by the fall and the expenditure of a Reaction. And it reduces the damage whether it is 1d6 or 20d6. It does not know the difference. It does not care. It doesn't even care who ultimately takes the damage once it's done it's job. it only is something that triggers and part of calculating the damage. Immediately after you roll the damage dice you apply it's effect. That is all.
The Damage that you take however DOES affect the rule about falling on another person however. It Clearly states that if the dex save is failed That the Damage the other person takes is directly and outright congruent with the amount of damage that the Monk takes. Being half that of what the monk takes while the monk takes the other half. This is the ability that cares about what the damage is calculated out to. it is not itself a Damage calculation. It is simply an affect that says how the total outcome is applied, Which Slow Fall does not do or care about. This ability is the one that cares what the damage number is and how it is applied and states specific rules on applying it after the calculation is already done. which means slow fall has done it's job.
We have said this many times. But you focus on words in slow fall like they are somehow unique. They are not. They are in fact mirrored in the falling rule. And the Falling rule then makes an exception of Specificity to falling damage. You also have a propensity to add words through implication to what slow fall is saying. Even though those words are not there.