Ok, bit of a clickbait there but it's kinda true. But just so we don't get off on the wrong foot even more, I actually do love monks. I really like the idea of the monk, and some of it is ok, but I can never get around the parts I just don't like.
Actually that's not true either, I do like the Way of Mercy monk subclass actually. It's cool, I like the theme, the ability to heal others and all that. I like this one.
But the rest of them I just get stuck on the imagery, or the fact that they don't seem to do what they should.
Like the way of shadow, I get it.. There needs to be a ninja I guess. Some might want to play it and that's fine. I can perhaps appreciate the way of the kensei in that while I don't want to play it, it works ok for anyone that just wants other weapons.
Also a quick disclosure here, I'm not saying the class is BAD, it's not one of the fighter vs monk or barbarian vs monk rants.. I think ;)
Back on track... I'm kinda disappointed in way of the long death, open hand and so on... Way of the four elements should have worked similar to way of mercy, imbuing your hands with fire, ice, lightning and so on... lightning step perhaps. Things like this and a few more options to do it more often would have made it more thematic, now (for me) it feels more like a waste of a wizard. I know they can do other things, I just am disappointed by almost all subclasses.
Now, here's the twist, if you're up for it. Because I really WANT to like them. I got the idea after reading in the fighter forums about the arcane archer, another subclass I never liked (but like the theme off) and someone made a good long post about how awesome they are and I'm like, yeah, makes sense and sounds fun!
So... Can you guys do the same for the monk and it's subclasses (preferably the monk as well, just general good fun stuff about it and its many abilities) Like if I hate ninjas, why should I STILL play a way of shadows monk?
Convince me why each subclass is actually alright or even amazing!
The way I see it, your main issue is with the subclasses rather than with the base class (since you didn't list anything against it, although you could...), I think that until you try each subclass, all of them will seem like they suck, but I'll try and share some opinions on the subclasses (apart from Mercy and Kensei, since you don't hate them or so it seems):
Open Hand: it is usually the first option when a player wants to try Monks and doesn't fully understand how the class work. The main draw from this subclass is the Open Hand Technique, looking at it carefully, the only thing this does is augment your flurry of blows, nothing more, nothing less; however this is telling the player that they should be using FoB as often as possible, it doesn't give you any other option. Wholeness of Body is a nice self recovery ability, BUT taking an action means that you will be using this outside combat, or when you are in a real pinch (I'm quite surprised this doesn't cost Ki points, but hey, I'm not complaining). Tranquility is... interesting, it is one of the very few non-aggresive features monks can get, it is meant to be used strategically. The problem with Wholeness and Tranquility is that they are the only benefits you get at 6th and 11th level, it's a good thing that the main class gives you much more, otherwise you'd feel cheated. Finally, Quivering Palm, a finishing move, what else is there to say? A save (and take 10d10 necrotic damage) or die ability with no restriction on the times you can use (apart from ki points) is very nice; there are however problems here, the first one is a combination of two issues that come with the main class: Do I go for better attack rolls and damage (dex) or do I go for a better Ki DC (wis)? Secondly, a CON save is more than likely result in a success by that tier of play, so you'll be doing the 10d10 damage most of the time. All in all, Open Hand feels really basic and since it revolves around forcing saves on enemies, it also brings about one glaring problem with monks: MADness.
Shadow: Yes, the ninja subclass (apparently designed as a rogue subclass, don't quote me on that). If you felt that Open Hand Technique augmenting one of your main features was not much, wait until you see Shadow Arts. Let's break it down: 1action (not bonus action) + 2 ki points (of which you only have 3 when you get this) = 1 of 4 spells, this will surely mess with your resource management in AND out of combat, at least you get a free cantrip with this feature as well. But let's talk about the main reason you want to get this subclass (and maybe the reason it is not on a rogue): SHADOW STEP. Unlimited bonus action teleport as long as you and the place you want to go (within 60 feet) are in dim light/darkness? YES! AND you get advantage on your next attack? YES! Cloak of Shadows feels like a way to deal with creatures that have Darkvision, but again, this being for free makes it great, even if it costs you an action as goes away just like simple invisibility. Opportunist is a thing, you can combine this with Cloak of Shadows to be invisible during most of combat and attacking as a reaction, but base monks get something far better with Empty Body 1 level later; again this being free does not give you many reasons to complain. There is only 1 major problem with this subclass, it does not give you magical darkvision, so you don't have a reliable way to exploit the best spell Shadow Arts gives, which is Darkness, this can be mitigated, but only through multiclassing either with Warlock (to get Devil's Sight at level 2) or any other class that has spellcasting (ideally Cleric) and then getting the Eldritch Adept feat. All in all, apart from shooting yourself in the foot with Shadow Arts, this is the most Ki-friendly monk subclass there is.
Four Elements: No. Really, no. The moment you read "you can spend 1/2/3... ki points" on everything the class gives and not complemeting anything without having to spend ki points, you turn around and never look at this ever again. I know that some people will say that it makes the monk incredible versatile, but you'll be a base monk almost always after you used your versatile disciplines in 1 or 2 turns througout the whole campaign (how can you make me feel that the Warlock has more resources at its disposal than a Monk? HOW?).
Long Death: This one's not very attractive except for 1 thing: Mastery of Death, but since that's at level 11, let's go in order. Touch of Death, I know that I mentioned the Warlock before, but why did they bring the Fiend's 1st level feature here?, it only works within 5 ft., but I guess that killing a non-hostile creature (like a rat or a bug) counts for something (team kill sounds a lot more attractive now). Hour of Reaping, personally, rather than this feature in particular, I have a problem with the whole AoE save or frighten abilities. This one's better because it is unlimited, but it only last for a turn. Mastery of Death, finally, and what a fitting name, this solves the usual low HP monks have, it does make you save ki exlusively for this ability, but it is worth it, your only weaknesses now are multiple attacks or insta-kill abilities (notice how MoD doesn't even require you to be conscious). Touch of the Long Death, you'll be comparing this with Quivering Palm a lot, you don't have to, but you will; this one doesn't require an attack roll and is done in a single turn, however, the cost to at least match Quivering Palm's damage is 10 ki points (5 if the creature fails the CON); moreover you'll be considering whether to spend ki points here or save them for MoD. Same issues with the Open Hand, but rather than feeling very basic, you'll feel bored (starting at lvl 11, you won't use FoB that ofter).
Drunken Master: You want this for the RP value tied with the concept, not the subclass. What's this, you get TWO things right from the start? Ok, I like how this starts. 2 bonus proficiencies, one of which is for supplies..., I'll take them, hey, monks don't have acces to many proficiencies, you know? Druken Technique, getting Open Hand deja vú again? At least this one does not require a high Wis to use, and combining two bonus action features into 1 is very much appreciated. Tipsy Sway, TWO benefits AGAIN? This subclass is getting more and more attractive; 5 ft standing up instead of half movement is ok, I guess; redirect attack is on theme and looks nice, but you need some strategic positioning to pull it off. Drunkard's Luck, I don't think there're many features in the game that let you cancel disadvantage just cause you feel like it, 2 ki points for each roll is a little expensive, but that's when your decision making abilities come into play. Intoxicated Frenzy, works incredible well with Drunken Technique, you lose a little bit of damage focus, but you can spread damage more often now, and since you can move between attacks, you can position yourself to make use of Redirect Attack later on. This subclass resembles Open Hand a little bit, but it doesn't feel basic (even though its main focus is augmenting FoB), rather it feels odd; it's not powerful, but it is interesting to say the least.
This is getting a little bit long, so I'll continue later
There is an entire thread in these forums that I don't believe is that old yet that goes All throughout the 4 elements monk and how it is not what people make it out to be and how they do too much base assuming about it that it actually works differently than they talk about.
Ninslayer's definition of 4 Elements is a fine example of somebody that looked at a few numbers and then made assumptions about how the whole thing would work and didn't realistically compare it Objectively to other monks.
It's long and very in depth conversation but suffice it to say 4 Elements monks are different than other Monks. Not only in how they work but down to how you build them and the thread covers a lot of it.
Also it would be wise to note that most Monk ability guides are middling at best. Usually done under rules that actually are designed to work against the monk without people realizing it and often pushing builds that actually work against themselves, Such as building dex before anything but then advocating for using a save based ability as much as you can despite that ability actually being more successful with more attention to Wisdom.
Part 2 of my non-important opinion about monk subclasses:
Sun Soul: So, a martial artist that can create energy blasts from its body (funny enough, the subclass does not tell you where you shoot this blasts from, hands? feet? mouth?)? Ok, I haven't seen this concept before. Radiant Sun Bolt is the main feature you will be using (mostly kiting enemies from a distance and then running away) until you realize that, after running out of ki points, you are dealing less damage at range than a base monk at melee. When I first read this feature, I missed a very important detail, which led me to believe that it was an amazing ability... The Sun Bolts are NOT monk weapons, nor do they count as unarmed strikes; I thought that it was not important, but the feature tells you quite literally "This special attack is a ranged spell attack...", why is this so important? You lose the free bonus action unarmed strike from Martial Arts that the main class has AND the new Ki-fueled attack feature from TCE doesn't apply to this as well. Radiant Sun Soul does mimic the basic unarmed strike + FoB mechanic pretty well, but you will soon realize it is not a ranged Martial Arts. Searing Arc Strike, a bonus action Burning Hands? Hmm, tempting but unless you are hitting multiple enemies, you are more likely dealing more damage (and from a better type) attacking 4 times Radiant Sun Bolt (2 from main attack + 2 bonus action); at least this one guarantees damage (hope your enemies don't make the save to halve it). Searing Sunburst is essentially a discount version of Fireball, but with a few tweaks. IT'S FREE! At least the most basic version (2d6) and you can spend ki points to add more damage (8d6 at full power), it has good range (150 ft), decent AoE (20 ft radius sphere) and it's Radiant damage (not as commonly resisted as fire). However, the CON save isnt a full (fail) or half (pass) save, it's a full (fail) or nothing (pass) save; you are going to force a CON save every single turn for something that may not even deal signigicant damage in its basic form (at least is a good way to have your DM rolling on your turns). Sun Shield... [BLANK] if you didn't have darkvision until lvl 17th, this can help you now... oh, and you can use your reaction to deal 5-10 damage on an opponent that hit you... with a melee attack (which you are not supposed to be taking AT RANGE)... Quite frankly, I liked this subclass at first, but it is mostly bait; it forces the player to be at a distance most of the time (RSB and Searing Sunburst), but some of its feature work better at close or even melee range (SAC and Sun Shield). The Ki DC problem is even more evident with this subclass than with the previous ones.
Astral Self: One of the two subclasses from Tasha's, haven't played it yet, so I can only make a superficial analysis. Arms of the Astral Self, ok so this one has two aspects, one at activation and one that lasts for 10 minutes, this is great, it means that 1 feature has more than 1 benefits. On activation, you spend 1 ki point on a bonus action to summon the arms, it may seem that you are losing a bit of potential damage from your modifiers (hitting with a FoB), but, just like Searing Arc Strike from the Sun Soul, you can get more damage depending on how many creatures you can hit. After that you get the main attraction from this class: the spectral arms can make unarmed strikes (I can hear the Sun Soul's soul screaming); the spectral arms have a +5 ft reach; AND you can use Wisdom instead of Dex or Str for the attack and damage rolls (with the damage being force damage), and also you can grapple using wisdom as well. This solves the MADness of monks to such a degree that you can finally have a good Ki DC and good modifiers for your attacks. There's a catch however... you can't afford to be incapacitated after you summon your arms, if you do you lose everything you have, and the more powerful your astral self becomes, the bigger this weakness becomes. Visage of the Astral Self, an extra ki point on top of the one you need for the arms may sound like a lot, but it can be used both in (mainly the magical darkvision) and out of combat to augment your versatility and social encounters. Body of the Astral Self, a free feature? Kinda, it does require you to summon both the arms and the visage, so that's a 2 ki points bonus action, but it gives you 2 extra benefits, Deflect Energy is basically Deflect Missiles, but for elemental damage and you don't add your monk level; Empowered Arms makes you a better damage dealer, or you can start crit-fishing now, since it does work just like Divine Smite. Awakened Astral Self, it seems that to go at full power you need to spend 5 ki points now, huh? Ok let's see if it's a fair trade; Armor of the Spirit gives you a +2 to your AC... Hmm, fine I guess? You already maxed out your Wis, so your Dex may still not be maxed, so your AC needs a little help; Astral Barrage, 3 attacks as part of the Attack action? Great! Now you have more chances to crit-fish and you are dealing at minimum 3d10+15 (main attack) + 2d10+10 (FoB) + 1d10 (Empowered Arms) = 6d10+25 or 5d10+20 if you are not using FoB but you are still using the free bonus action attack. I think this subclass is great to try since it makes for an interesting style of ranged-melee monk, but you must be really careful with the incapacitated condition (it is also caused by other conditions, like stunned or paralized), there's an incredible amount of things that can make you waste your ki points before you can use your full power.
There is an entire thread in these forums that I don't believe is that old yet that goes All throughout the 4 elements monk and how it is not what people make it out to be and how they do too much base assuming about it that it actually works differently than they talk about.
Ninslayer's definition of 4 Elements is a fine example of somebody that looked at a few numbers and then made assumptions about how the whole thing would work and didn't realistically compare it Objectively to other monks.
It's long and very in depth conversation but suffice it to say 4 Elements monks are different than other Monks. Not only in how they work but down to how you build them and the thread covers a lot of it.
Also it would be wise to note that most Monk ability guides are middling at best. Usually done under rules that actually are designed to work against the monk without people realizing it and often pushing builds that actually work against themselves, Such as building dex before anything but then advocating for using a save based ability as much as you can despite that ability actually being more successful with more attention to Wisdom.
I didn't look at just a few numbers, I really kept in mind how many ki points you had at each step in which you get new subclass features and how it really compares with the other subclasses, me mentioning the Warlock was not to be taken as part of the main opinion. "Working differently" does not necessarily mean "working efficiently" I know that it is the one subclass that's screaming "DON'T BE STUPID AND MAX WISDOM FIRST!" (since you want the Ki DC to be high as soon as possible), but it's also the one that brings the ki point consumption that the main class has to the absolute limit (I did mention that Shadow Arts is way to expensive the moment you get it, didn't I?). You start with picking some uses of prestidigitation or 1 use of shape water, control flames or mold earth (why gust isn't here is beyond me) and only 1 discipline at level 3 (I don't know which one you'd pick, but based on utility, I'd go for either Rush of the Gale Spirits or Shape the Flowing River) with only 3 ki points to use (so at level 3 that's only 1 use of Rush or 3 of River depending on my pick, with no more ki points to use). Disciplines also have a problem, they work like known spells, you can only change them when you learn a new one (at levels 6, 11 and 17), that's way too far in between, you can't be that versatile if you have to stick to the chosen discipline that long (and you may have chosen one trying to experiment with your character). If a player on my table is using a Four elements monk, I'd allow them to treat them as prepared spells, changing them on each long rest, or at least at every monk level they get. Oh, and don't use the typical "short rest" excuse, relying on the DM is not a good thing and your party may be one that only takes long rests, with no stop in-between.
You also don't mention the fact that the Four Elements monk gives you only the Elemental Attunements and Disciplines, nothing else (something I only mention on Open Hand, for lvl 6 and 11, but it would also apply to the very simple benefits some of the other subclasses get). It doesn't compliment it with any further features, getting more attunements and disciplines is something that should be implied in the lvl 3 feature, not the whole features you get at lvl 6, 11 and 17, not depending on the Martial Arts die is a good thing, but there needs be some scaling outside upcasting the disciplines. There should be some improvements on the disciplines, like at level 6 if you used an elemental discipline as part of your action, you can move up to half your speed as part of the same action (or smth better), at level 11, your elemental disciplines could ignore resistance and inmunity to their damage type and at level 17 if you reduce a hostile creature to 0 hit points with an elemental discipline, you could recover half the ki points you used to cast it.
If the monk had more ki points at its disposal, you can bet that the four elements monk would be way more popular than it is now. I would like it if the amount of ki points a monk had was something like monk level + wisdom modifier, or having its 20th level ability come much earlier (like at level 2, together with the introduction of ki points) and instead of giving you 4 ki points, it gave you 1/3 of your total (it would scale with your level and it takes until lvl 12 to get 4).
You like the subclass the way it is? Fine, it's your opinion. But you can't deny the fact that Four Elements suffers a little from some bad design and a lot from the problems the main class already has.
In it, you will see several arguments discussed at length regarding the viability of the subclass, including apparent lack of features and disciplines and potential damage output and ki consumption.
There is alot to dig through there, but it may give you a more in-depth understanding of the subclass and show you its benefits (or reinforce your point of view that it is not a very good subclass).
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Before I go on and read the other thread which seems interesting I'd just like to mention some thanks for the posts + a little side note that I think is important, especially for the 4 elements class and it's that I have some issues with the class, even if it's good or not, and its
1: It is called 4 elements but the first impression + reading it a few times, gives the impression that you're hard struck to manage to get even 2 elements in now and then. It's like if the way of shadows monk was able to carry a candle = make small shadows. You feel tricked. It doesn't feel like a monk with some incredible ability to use the 4 elements. Heck they don't even seem to be able to use one element very well. Making a level 1 monk/lvl X sorcerer who focused on elemental spells would feel more like a master of the 4 elements than what his subclass gives as an overview. And sure, they might actually be able to do stuff at level 20 but if I play a way of the 4 elements monk and can't use 4 elements by level 8 regularily, it's not a way of the elements monk in my eyes. Tldr: it doesn't seem to give the 4 elements until at best in a VERY high level since you have to pick certain elemental options.
2: It also seems you get to do them very little, using your Ki, an already limited resource, to do... what just seems like lack-luster spell effects. I'm not saying they are, I'm just saying that's what they seem like and this IS a problem. If you make the best car in the world but no one uses it, it's stil the most useless car in the world. I feel like there's few options for actually using your elements, even just one of them, until you become much much higher level. Look at how way of mercy lets you either heal or harm quite a lot. You would feel much more like a way of the 4 elements monk if you had that similar ability but with the option to deal fire, cold, lightning and.. acid i guess? :S Too few options, too late it seems.
Now I'm gonna read that other post.
Also, I do have some issues with the general monk as well, always did. I always felt they took the feel of the monk too far into the mystic part. I don't dislike that as an option but I feel like it could have been left out of the base, but I know this is a design that would be very hard to implement in 5e especially considering the way it's based on their subclasses + I understand it's probably not a lot of people feeling this. To put it in some kinda perspective I'd like the idea of a "clean slate" like the fighter whereas the monks base is more like a eldritch knight-cleric or something (full of all kinds of magic stuff :p )
Edit: I'd like to add a note that I'd be fine with having just one element out of the 4. like way of the 4 elements fire monk, if it meant I'd have enough fun things to do with that element as well.
Edit 2: I read through a bunch of it. I really like Fateless suggestions for more disciplines with unique (not replicating spells) options, especially in combination with the suggestion of being able to pick more options. That would make it seem more interesting and fun, feel more like it was a master of elements and wouldn't change the balance that much as I understand it seems like a pretty balanced class if played "right".
One thing to keep in mind about Ki costs. and i cover it repeatedly and at length in that thread shown.
Thank you for digging that up by the way, I've been very busy and hadn't had the chance to go trying to find it.
But Ki as a resource is very deceptive. Depending on how many rests you get and how often you get in combat you have more or less of it. Potentially a lot more of it. Like Triple the number on your sheet over the course of the day more of it because of how you refresh them if your doing the 2 short rests.
This means that high costs aren't necessarily so high. And I do give ways to address this somewhat and some real dangers to some people's "quick fixes" I even point out potential traps in at least one of my own fixes.
As for Building into Monk or monk building into 4 elements. I touch on it in that thread. They do build into each other. But not in the way of "I hit stuff more with a little twist" like so many other monk sub classes. They get a little more into the design theme around monk and a little less into a couple of basic features. Though there are abilities that touch into those as well and there should probably be a couple more.
But 4 elements monk has that same kind of thing shadow monk has. The costs are really high at real low level but then they fall off. Shadow Monk doesn't build into that and people don't play it at as low of level as is crippling as they make 4 elements monk out to be as often as they might say. People aren't really aware of the shift in dynamic that exists at real low levels. Or the perils and challenges that exist that shift a bit once you get sub classes and your first ASI and extra attack. Those levels right in that 3 to 5 range really shift a lot of classes.
But as you kind of touched on yourself in the second Edit of your last post. More than other kinds of monks even. You kind of have to build it and play it right. That's a challenge. Particular when most things on the internet are telling you that the right way for it is actually wrong.
As for the Single Element Idea. i'm not against that. But it means that we as players have to get with our DM's and do some work to really do that. Because there just isn't a lot of support or added material for the 4 elements monk. They've just kind of forgotten it. So we have to fill in gaps to kind of become masters of a single element or choose to dabble in many elements.
Edit:Monk is a class I really do like and it's something I've put some time into testing and working to understand and even failing at. But if i hadn't done that it's a class I might have overlooked myself. But I've always gone my own way to an extent and sometimes found things that really surprised others as I tried to understand things. But I also accept that even without the labels of such it is kind of an advanced class when it comes to what it takes to play one. Which also means it's actually a hard one to share with people how to play well. And some of the subclasses even more so. So I can only try to give people the understanding so that they can apply it when they need to. Which takes some outright practice on their part.
I've been wondering this lately, instead of "fixing" the subclass (or the class for that matter), how about creating a feat to help it? A DM would be more inclined to add that to a game, since it'd be something that all players can use instead of the one(s) playing the Four Elements monk. Something akin to Eldritch, Metamagic and Martial Adept? Like this:
Ki Adept (or a better name...)
You've learned how to harness the mystic energy of Ki and use it to bend the four elements to your will:
- You learn one Elemental Discipline of your choice from the Four Elements monastic tradition in the monk class. If the discipline has a prerequisite of any kind, you can choose that discipline only if you're a monk who meets the prerequisite. Whenever you reach a level that granst the Ability Score Improvement feature, you can replace one of these Elemental Disciplines with another one from the Four Elements monastic tradition. If a discipline you use requires your target to make a saving throw to resist the discipline's effects, the saving throw DC equals 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Wisdom modifier.
- You gain 2 Ki points to spend on Elemental Disciplines (these points are added to any Ki points you have from another source but can be used only on Elemental Disciplines). You regain all Ki points when you finish a short rest.
Do you think that this is too much? Or that it would help more players be interested in trying the FE monk? (I purposedly made it like this so that the best disciplines could only be picked by a monk)
It also makes a 4 elements monk better than other monks because it gives no ability to upcast the abilities. The upcasting ability isn't part of the Disciplines themselves. It's actually part of the Elemental Casting ability of the 4 elements monk. And I'm actually ok with this. Being a Feat it's not something that just anybody is going to be willing to take or take repeatedly either.
With respect, may I add a very different perspective: Role-Playing?
My first PC in D&D is a Monk, not because I want it to beat every single monster or have all mighty ultimate punch. Synergy of race and class, background, and stats are important. However when I created my character I asked just 2 questions: - What are the motivations of the character to go to adventure? (Totally! Be the master of kung fu and rebuild the destroyed monk temple!) - Is there any great potential to role playing? (Jackie Chan was my inspiration! No one gets bored from his stunts!)
Jackie was not the kung fu master as Bruce Lee, but he has his own charm without being the best in combat. He is versatile in and out of combat. That´s was my idea when I created my open hand monk, and really loved the character. Adding a weird hobby of collecting bones and use them as cloth, it helped me with lots role playing specially when I want to tease our cleric. Haha!
So, before considering the race, subclass, etc... What was your character idea and what do you want to explorer (roleplay) as monk out of combat?
With respect, may I add a very different perspective: Role-Playing?
My first PC in D&D is a Monk, not because I want it to beat every single monster or have all mighty ultimate punch. Synergy of race and class, background, and stats are important. However when I created my character I asked just 2 questions: - What are the motivations of the character to go to adventure? (Totally! Be the master of kung fu and rebuild the destroyed monk temple!) - Is there any great potential to role playing? (Jackie Chan was my inspiration! No one gets bored from his stunts!)
Jackie was not the kung fu master as Bruce Lee, but he has his own charm without being the best in combat. He is versatile in and out of combat. That´s was my idea when I created my open hand monk, and really loved the character. Adding a weird hobby of collecting bones and use them as cloth, it helped me with lots role playing specially when I want to tease our cleric. Haha!
So, before considering the race, subclass, etc... What was your character idea and what do you want to explorer (roleplay) as monk out of combat?
That's actually just as much of a problem because I don't feel the main monk features or any subclass gives a good Jackie Chan or Bruce Lee feel. They are all into crouching tiger hidden dragon territory, mystic flashy weird stuff. Maybe previous editions more than 5e but still.
To play Bruce Lee I feel it would be more fitting to go dexterious fighter, especially now with the unarmed weapon style.
That's part of the issue for me because I can deal with wanting to play the unarmed warrior and having a few mystic things, like ki, it's fine. But then you pick a subclass and you're some kinda creepy deathlord, superadvanced anime type with death punches that kills you days after or something and so on. It's all very flashy and dramatic.
Unfortunately this gives me the feel of either a comic relief character going hwaaaoooooohhh with outstretched arms, or the overly cool mysterious imsocoolman character. Or the incredibly old guy with a long beard.
Nothing wrong with those just that it's not what I want to play but what I feel the class forces upon me. I've tried to think around it but all the subclasses keep bringing it to that point.
With respect, may I add a very different perspective: Role-Playing?
My first PC in D&D is a Monk, not because I want it to beat every single monster or have all mighty ultimate punch. Synergy of race and class, background, and stats are important. However when I created my character I asked just 2 questions: - What are the motivations of the character to go to adventure? (Totally! Be the master of kung fu and rebuild the destroyed monk temple!) - Is there any great potential to role playing? (Jackie Chan was my inspiration! No one gets bored from his stunts!)
Jackie was not the kung fu master as Bruce Lee, but he has his own charm without being the best in combat. He is versatile in and out of combat. That´s was my idea when I created my open hand monk, and really loved the character. Adding a weird hobby of collecting bones and use them as cloth, it helped me with lots role playing specially when I want to tease our cleric. Haha!
So, before considering the race, subclass, etc... What was your character idea and what do you want to explorer (roleplay) as monk out of combat?
That's actually just as much of a problem because I don't feel the main monk features or any subclass gives a good Jackie Chan or Bruce Lee feel. They are all into crouching tiger hidden dragon territory, mystic flashy weird stuff. Maybe previous editions more than 5e but still.
To play Bruce Lee I feel it would be more fitting to go dexterious fighter, especially now with the unarmed weapon style.
That's part of the issue for me because I can deal with wanting to play the unarmed warrior and having a few mystic things, like ki, it's fine. But then you pick a subclass and you're some kinda creepy deathlord, superadvanced anime type with death punches that kills you days after or something and so on. It's all very flashy and dramatic.
Unfortunately this gives me the feel of either a comic relief character going hwaaaoooooohhh with outstretched arms, or the overly cool mysterious imsocoolman character. Or the incredibly old guy with a long beard.
Nothing wrong with those just that it's not what I want to play but what I feel the class forces upon me. I've tried to think around it but all the subclasses keep bringing it to that point.
Your Selling both Bruce Lee and the Monk very short with these posts. Not to mention Which Bruce Lee are you talking about? Because if your talking about the Movie Screen Bruce Lee. He very much is that "I'm so cool man" outstretched arm wavey type of character. And Jackie chan is very heavily comic relief in many of his martial arts themed movies and not just roles that just happen to use a bit of martial arts. There Are two very different Jackie Chan's when it comes to the movies, partly based on if they are american or Chinese movies.
but Bruce Lee as a martial artist and not an actor was very different. Jackie Chan is as well. Bruce would rely on brutal efficiency of movement when not on stage. But at the same time would be insulted if you made him out to be a mere fighter. he had trouble showing it at times but he was actually very proud of the tradition that taught him even while he understood that for movies of his time it was impractical to sell which put him at odds to some extent with both groups.
And both him and Jackie started in styles that were as much about turning an opponent on themselves as outright attacking them. Which i represented by the monk class to some extent in various ways. But if all your seeing is anime character. That's not really on the class. Because there is very little about the class that is Anime. There is a lot about the class however that does draw from old Kung Fu movies. Which in turn were stylized versions of actual martial arts brought to life on the screen. legendary death punches, even ones that don't immediately kill, are a part of the lore and the mystery of martial arts and it's culture. That wasn't just invented by the movies. That was only adapted by them.
The Fighter with Unarmed Fighting can't capture that and in some respects is just as anime as anything about the monk if People want to look at it that way.
Yeah, I just feel that the tradition and legends about things, and actually doing it are different things. In "reality". In the case of the monk it's more true. I don't argue that traditions about the martial arts are bad, like I said I don't mind the specifics of Ki in the game and so on, it's a cool concept that works well in game terms for the most part. The 5e monk is less over the top when it comes to speed than it used to be, but it's still a lot of speed, still I can live with it. Stunning strike and magic attacks makes sense in the way that it's cool + if you couldn't deal damage to certain creatures at a certain point of time it would be kinda bad, even though it would open up for some weapon usage and I don't think it would be too unbalanced. It would force you to use weapons though and for some characters I think it would be kinda unfair and limiting really. But all in all the martial aspects are pretty much fine, they do more than a regular fighter could without being over the top. They still enter the real of the martial arts traditions in my opinion. Even the whole thing with affecting saves is incredibly good but "ok" because of this. Here's where they lose me though:
Not suffering from old age, is ok-ish, I get it and it helps open up for more varied age groups. It's fine. Not needing food and water anymore though, is starting to get a bit weird. Immunity to disease and poison is a bit weird though I can understand the concept of cleansing your body through ki/the mastery of your body so it's a bit borderline but still getting quite weird. Understanding all languages is just bonkers. Empty body is also just out there.
I'm not saying these abilities are bad or unbalanced or anything really, I'm just saying these abilities give the class a whole other feel. Imagine if all fighters learned to cast magic at level 10, it would be a completely different feel from the martial class they are now. It's how I feel the monk goes from a martial class with martial arts traditional tendencies and some cool features of those legends, to all out full legendary divinehood monk. It's just too much and too weird. I know I don't have to use them, and it's all a bit late in the class, but it is still there and that to me gives me a different feel of the class.
I'd have appreciated it much more if it was more akin to the warlocks invocations, you get a few now and then and you could pick Ageless, empty body, and all the weirdly odd over the top (not necessarily overpowered) abilities, but also more options of perhaps "perfect balance" where you could do tricks like a handstand on a staff and either have resistance to being tripped or just be immune to it. Now, being tripped is of course not a big problem in 5E as it is, especially for a monk, but still. Just the ability to pick a few things that aren't some kinda supreme connection to the all of it that allows me to speak with graguffians from alienspace 9 automatically.
And again, note that while I joke about it a bit, I don't necessarily say these abilities are overpowered or anything, just that I feel they are too extreme for me and shape the feel of the entire class (even before entering subclasses). I can absolutely see myself playing with someone playing a monk and thinking it's cool they can do that, it's just not the feel I appreciate as it is.
This is also part of what I like about the way of mercy, they basically build upon the basic martial stuff, but allow you to do better things with them. Suddenly you can not just strike the enemy but also make a healing touch or harm them with the mastery of this "basic" ki.
To be fair, in a way the open hand does it too, the first two abilities are quite ok. Then suddenly you project peace. Now, I love sanctuary, it's a cool spell. I don't feel it has anything to do in a "open hand technique" tradition though. In fact since I talked about it just before, it seems much more fitting in a "way of mercy" tradition, though I'm glad it's not in there. It's just such a weird ability. (once again, not bad or overpowered or useless, not even uncool). And quivering palm. Yes. I get it. But no. I do not like it at all. I'd actually appreciate it more if it was an instant effect, like hit, save or die, over. PERHAPS a few turns, so you could make a cool monologue about "sorry mate but you're already dead" (except more monkish) But yeah it's there. Way of the long death has some potential and at least follows the theme of the subclass a bit, but they are just too serial killer psycopath ultra evil.. I mean they don't just study death, they literally capture creatures to watch them die in different ways. They are easily the most evil class in the game they way they are written ;)
Anyways Since this is the feel I get from the base class, I hope you can understand my problem better. As I said, I really do want to like the class, I just have a hard time since the base class goes bananas and many of the subclasses progress it as well. Thanks for all the replies though!
In it, you will see several arguments discussed at length regarding the viability of the subclass, including apparent lack of features and disciplines and potential damage output and ki consumption.
There is alot to dig through there, but it may give you a more in-depth understanding of the subclass and show you its benefits (or reinforce your point of view that it is not a very good subclass).
Yeah good discussion but it ultimately proves one point very clearly....the subclass is at best dividing. Surveys put it near the bottom in terms of popularity most of the time. Even the survey we did on the forums it got a single vote for favorite subclass.
Take that information how you will but I believe it shows at least something towards its quality vs. the other subclasses.
In it, you will see several arguments discussed at length regarding the viability of the subclass, including apparent lack of features and disciplines and potential damage output and ki consumption.
There is alot to dig through there, but it may give you a more in-depth understanding of the subclass and show you its benefits (or reinforce your point of view that it is not a very good subclass).
Yeah good discussion but it ultimately proves one point very clearly....the subclass is at best dividing. Surveys put it near the bottom in terms of popularity most of the time. Even the survey we did on the forums it got a single vote for favorite subclass.
Take that information how you will but I believe it shows at least something towards its quality vs. the other subclasses.
That doesn't speak to it's quality. As that thread showed. A lot of people don't even know it's quality. There were various people in that thread that admitted after a point that they never really played it or that what little they did play it it wasn't really with the purpose of really trying to play it but more settling for it and the perception of it and falling into the same traps that the Main monk subclass has as well. I even called a couple of them out on it.
What it shows is just how pervasive and Damaging and wide Spread an opinion can get without being based on much more than a look and perhaps a few clumsy attempts. Which is something the Monk itself suffers from as well. There are several examples of this throughout the forums. And even a couple that show what some people think is popular opinion really isn't if you dig through the various forums.
Something to note as well. I responded in that thread saying that it's hard to pick a favorite. But what most people may not realize is that I didn't cast a vote because i like a lot of monks differently for different reasons. I can't say that I have just one favorite.
Also Way of the cobalt soul is ranked just as low from the looks of it when I go and look at the results now. That doesn't mean it's bad.
And finally your misrepresenting what that poll even states. It's stating "what is your favorite subclass" Just because something is not somebodies favorite subclass does not mean they do not like it. It is not some kind of binary switch. you do not automatically hate all other choices other than the one you pick normally. This can be leaned on even more because there is nothing really bad said about 4 elements monk in the few responses in that poll. There is acknowledgement of certain failings but nothing actually said against it. And those failings are in the longer thread that discusses the subclass far more in depth as well.
Yeah, I just feel that the tradition and legends about things, and actually doing it are different things. In "reality". In the case of the monk it's more true. I don't argue that traditions about the martial arts are bad, like I said I don't mind the specifics of Ki in the game and so on, it's a cool concept that works well in game terms for the most part. The 5e monk is less over the top when it comes to speed than it used to be, but it's still a lot of speed, still I can live with it. Stunning strike and magic attacks makes sense in the way that it's cool + if you couldn't deal damage to certain creatures at a certain point of time it would be kinda bad, even though it would open up for some weapon usage and I don't think it would be too unbalanced. It would force you to use weapons though and for some characters I think it would be kinda unfair and limiting really. But all in all the martial aspects are pretty much fine, they do more than a regular fighter could without being over the top. They still enter the real of the martial arts traditions in my opinion. Even the whole thing with affecting saves is incredibly good but "ok" because of this. Here's where they lose me though:
Not suffering from old age, is ok-ish, I get it and it helps open up for more varied age groups. It's fine. Not needing food and water anymore though, is starting to get a bit weird. Immunity to disease and poison is a bit weird though I can understand the concept of cleansing your body through ki/the mastery of your body so it's a bit borderline but still getting quite weird. Understanding all languages is just bonkers. Empty body is also just out there.
I'm not saying these abilities are bad or unbalanced or anything really, I'm just saying these abilities give the class a whole other feel. Imagine if all fighters learned to cast magic at level 10, it would be a completely different feel from the martial class they are now. It's how I feel the monk goes from a martial class with martial arts traditional tendencies and some cool features of those legends, to all out full legendary divinehood monk. It's just too much and too weird. I know I don't have to use them, and it's all a bit late in the class, but it is still there and that to me gives me a different feel of the class.
I'd have appreciated it much more if it was more akin to the warlocks invocations, you get a few now and then and you could pick Ageless, empty body, and all the weirdly odd over the top (not necessarily overpowered) abilities, but also more options of perhaps "perfect balance" where you could do tricks like a handstand on a staff and either have resistance to being tripped or just be immune to it. Now, being tripped is of course not a big problem in 5E as it is, especially for a monk, but still. Just the ability to pick a few things that aren't some kinda supreme connection to the all of it that allows me to speak with graguffians from alienspace 9 automatically.
And again, note that while I joke about it a bit, I don't necessarily say these abilities are overpowered or anything, just that I feel they are too extreme for me and shape the feel of the entire class (even before entering subclasses). I can absolutely see myself playing with someone playing a monk and thinking it's cool they can do that, it's just not the feel I appreciate as it is.
This is also part of what I like about the way of mercy, they basically build upon the basic martial stuff, but allow you to do better things with them. Suddenly you can not just strike the enemy but also make a healing touch or harm them with the mastery of this "basic" ki.
To be fair, in a way the open hand does it too, the first two abilities are quite ok. Then suddenly you project peace. Now, I love sanctuary, it's a cool spell. I don't feel it has anything to do in a "open hand technique" tradition though. In fact since I talked about it just before, it seems much more fitting in a "way of mercy" tradition, though I'm glad it's not in there. It's just such a weird ability. (once again, not bad or overpowered or useless, not even uncool). And quivering palm. Yes. I get it. But no. I do not like it at all. I'd actually appreciate it more if it was an instant effect, like hit, save or die, over. PERHAPS a few turns, so you could make a cool monologue about "sorry mate but you're already dead" (except more monkish) But yeah it's there. Way of the long death has some potential and at least follows the theme of the subclass a bit, but they are just too serial killer psycopath ultra evil.. I mean they don't just study death, they literally capture creatures to watch them die in different ways. They are easily the most evil class in the game they way they are written ;)
Anyways Since this is the feel I get from the base class, I hope you can understand my problem better. As I said, I really do want to like the class, I just have a hard time since the base class goes bananas and many of the subclasses progress it as well. Thanks for all the replies though!
Wait, so we've shifted from "I don't like the subclasses, so try to convince me to play them" to "The concept and abilities of the base monk do not fit what I thought they should, and the subclasses make it seem to even more unrealistic or out-of-theme?" Then, the issue is not for us to try and encourage you to play something you think is not a monk, but picking a class that's fitting of the concept you already have of the class. For that matter, not all monks are martial artist, nor is every martial artist a monk.
Taking into account the concept of each tradition, the most "down-to-earth" traditions would be Drunken Master (again, RP value over power), Shadows (the movie concept of ninja is there...) and Open Hand (apart from Tranquility, everything else does not seem so flashy nor farfetched). You could say Mercy fits, but rising someone from death sounds a little out there, don't you think? (If it kept its UA final ability, then sure, it would fit)
Yeah, I just feel that the tradition and legends about things, and actually doing it are different things. In "reality". In the case of the monk it's more true. I don't argue that traditions about the martial arts are bad, like I said I don't mind the specifics of Ki in the game and so on, it's a cool concept that works well in game terms for the most part. The 5e monk is less over the top when it comes to speed than it used to be, but it's still a lot of speed, still I can live with it. Stunning strike and magic attacks makes sense in the way that it's cool + if you couldn't deal damage to certain creatures at a certain point of time it would be kinda bad, even though it would open up for some weapon usage and I don't think it would be too unbalanced. It would force you to use weapons though and for some characters I think it would be kinda unfair and limiting really. But all in all the martial aspects are pretty much fine, they do more than a regular fighter could without being over the top. They still enter the real of the martial arts traditions in my opinion. Even the whole thing with affecting saves is incredibly good but "ok" because of this. Here's where they lose me though:
Not suffering from old age, is ok-ish, I get it and it helps open up for more varied age groups. It's fine. Not needing food and water anymore though, is starting to get a bit weird. Immunity to disease and poison is a bit weird though I can understand the concept of cleansing your body through ki/the mastery of your body so it's a bit borderline but still getting quite weird. Understanding all languages is just bonkers. Empty body is also just out there.
Way of the long death has some potential and at least follows the theme of the subclass a bit, but they are just too serial killer psycopath ultra evil.. I mean they don't just study death, they literally capture creatures to watch them die in different ways. They are easily the most evil class in the game they way they are written ;)
I just want to touch on these two points. The things your talking about here like resisting poison and disease. which you even acknowledge slightly about Balance and mastery of body a little. These are not something made up or wierd about Monk. These are somewhat grounded abilities but they are also abilities that relate back to the lore of martial arts and their traditions as well. Being much healthier is not only part of taking care of your body naturally but Martial Arts was often practiced by those that had chronic illnesses and such to help fight them off. The ability to resist poisons and Disease is again part of the story about them and it is one that while exagerated somewhat it in the stories is partly because of the way some things really work. The Old Age seems odd at a glance but at the same time, This is another aspect of the stories and traditions around martial arts. The Venerable, even ones that lived much longer than the average were often in some way tied to practicing martial arts. Not always but often enough that it became part of the myth. This effect is also toned down greatly in 5e. There were versions of this in older editions where Monks literally stopped aging once they hit a certain class level and gained this type of ability. They could only die from violent or forceful acts.
And the idea of being able to speak to anybody reaches back towards certain religious practices by certain sects that practiced monastic martial arts traditions that Englightenment opened up one to many things including an understanding of others that could transend verbal communication. It's probably one of the farther fetched less grounded things monks get. But it's also a ribbon ability that only has role play value.
As for your Complaints of the Long Death. Monks do not have to be good. This is an idea that really must be shed. It's slowly been shed for the Paladin. But it was never true for the Monk. Monks alignment restriction was always that they had to be lawful. Which does include evil as well as good. This restriction was only lifted in 5e and it only seems to be lifted because they basically lifted almost all of the other alignment retrictions for everybody else anyway.
Long Death coming off as dark. This is not unfitting for the Monk. Not only because they were never only good. But also there are stories of very dark, very spiteful, and even very evil monks. A Few of the greatest masters were also some of the most vengeful people in certain tradtional stories. This goes so far that the so called Death Punch or Death Touch Technique's that are the basis for Quivering Palm actually originate partly in stories of such Monks. One Particular one was of a Monk that got bumped into on the Road. And because the person that bumped into him did not immediately grovel and beg forgiveness to the Monk, who considered himself superior of station. he actually afflicted the man with a strike that did not immediately kill him but actually gave him some time, the amount varies based upon the telling of the story you get it from. For some it was a few steps, for others it was a few days. But when the man never made amends for what the monk Percieved as an insult despite being a mere accident. The Man keeled over and died exactly where he was. Nothing about this is anywhere close to a Good Act or done by what could be considered a Moral Character. But it can technically be considered Lawful alignment wise in the sense that the Monk had a rigid moral code and sense of hierarchy and he stuck to it no matter the consequences because those were the codified rules he lived his life by at all times (it's not very different from the kind of lawful that made the idiot Paladin trope everything it came to be known for).
In it, you will see several arguments discussed at length regarding the viability of the subclass, including apparent lack of features and disciplines and potential damage output and ki consumption.
There is alot to dig through there, but it may give you a more in-depth understanding of the subclass and show you its benefits (or reinforce your point of view that it is not a very good subclass).
Yeah good discussion but it ultimately proves one point very clearly....the subclass is at best dividing. Surveys put it near the bottom in terms of popularity most of the time. Even the survey we did on the forums it got a single vote for favorite subclass.
Take that information how you will but I believe it shows at least something towards its quality vs. the other subclasses.
That doesn't speak to it's quality. As that thread showed. A lot of people don't even know it's quality. There were various people in that thread that admitted after a point that they never really played it or that what little they did play it it wasn't really with the purpose of really trying to play it but more settling for it and the perception of it and falling into the same traps that the Main monk subclass has as well. I even called a couple of them out on it.
What it shows is just how pervasive and Damaging and wide Spread an opinion can get without being based on much more than a look and perhaps a few clumsy attempts. Which is something the Monk itself suffers from as well. There are several examples of this throughout the forums. And even a couple that show what some people think is popular opinion really isn't if you dig through the various forums.
Something to note as well. I responded in that thread saying that it's hard to pick a favorite. But what most people may not realize is that I didn't cast a vote because i like a lot of monks differently for different reasons. I can't say that I have just one favorite.
Also Way of the cobalt soul is ranked just as low from the looks of it when I go and look at the results now. That doesn't mean it's bad.
And finally your misrepresenting what that poll even states. It's stating "what is your favorite subclass" Just because something is not somebodies favorite subclass does not mean they do not like it. It is not some kind of binary switch. you do not automatically hate all other choices other than the one you pick normally. This can be leaned on even more because there is nothing really bad said about 4 elements monk in the few responses in that poll. There is acknowledgement of certain failings but nothing actually said against it. And those failings are in the longer thread that discusses the subclass far more in depth as well.
Quality is in your own words subjective and if a lot of people subjectively don't like the subclass... Well there were are.
As for the whole poll on which is your favorite subclass and way of the 4 elements being picked only once was it? The point is that this poll doesn't say which your least favorite is. In fact if we had a poll that had the question "what is your second favorite monk subclass" asked to the exact same people, maybe they ALL thought way of the 4 monks was the second favorite. Same with 3rd, 4th and so on. We don't know because the poll was only about the absolute favorite.
So it doesn't really say anything about way of the 4 monks except that not many people have it as their favorite. It could still be one of the most liked classes in general (i mean imagine if it IS the 2nd pick for everyone, that's a pretty good grade tbh).
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Ok, bit of a clickbait there but it's kinda true. But just so we don't get off on the wrong foot even more, I actually do love monks. I really like the idea of the monk, and some of it is ok, but I can never get around the parts I just don't like.
Actually that's not true either, I do like the Way of Mercy monk subclass actually. It's cool, I like the theme, the ability to heal others and all that. I like this one.
But the rest of them I just get stuck on the imagery, or the fact that they don't seem to do what they should.
Like the way of shadow, I get it.. There needs to be a ninja I guess. Some might want to play it and that's fine. I can perhaps appreciate the way of the kensei in that while I don't want to play it, it works ok for anyone that just wants other weapons.
Also a quick disclosure here, I'm not saying the class is BAD, it's not one of the fighter vs monk or barbarian vs monk rants.. I think ;)
Back on track... I'm kinda disappointed in way of the long death, open hand and so on... Way of the four elements should have worked similar to way of mercy, imbuing your hands with fire, ice, lightning and so on... lightning step perhaps. Things like this and a few more options to do it more often would have made it more thematic, now (for me) it feels more like a waste of a wizard. I know they can do other things, I just am disappointed by almost all subclasses.
Now, here's the twist, if you're up for it. Because I really WANT to like them. I got the idea after reading in the fighter forums about the arcane archer, another subclass I never liked (but like the theme off) and someone made a good long post about how awesome they are and I'm like, yeah, makes sense and sounds fun!
So... Can you guys do the same for the monk and it's subclasses (preferably the monk as well, just general good fun stuff about it and its many abilities) Like if I hate ninjas, why should I STILL play a way of shadows monk?
Convince me why each subclass is actually alright or even amazing!
The way I see it, your main issue is with the subclasses rather than with the base class (since you didn't list anything against it, although you could...), I think that until you try each subclass, all of them will seem like they suck, but I'll try and share some opinions on the subclasses (apart from Mercy and Kensei, since you don't hate them or so it seems):
Open Hand: it is usually the first option when a player wants to try Monks and doesn't fully understand how the class work. The main draw from this subclass is the Open Hand Technique, looking at it carefully, the only thing this does is augment your flurry of blows, nothing more, nothing less; however this is telling the player that they should be using FoB as often as possible, it doesn't give you any other option. Wholeness of Body is a nice self recovery ability, BUT taking an action means that you will be using this outside combat, or when you are in a real pinch (I'm quite surprised this doesn't cost Ki points, but hey, I'm not complaining). Tranquility is... interesting, it is one of the very few non-aggresive features monks can get, it is meant to be used strategically. The problem with Wholeness and Tranquility is that they are the only benefits you get at 6th and 11th level, it's a good thing that the main class gives you much more, otherwise you'd feel cheated. Finally, Quivering Palm, a finishing move, what else is there to say? A save (and take 10d10 necrotic damage) or die ability with no restriction on the times you can use (apart from ki points) is very nice; there are however problems here, the first one is a combination of two issues that come with the main class: Do I go for better attack rolls and damage (dex) or do I go for a better Ki DC (wis)? Secondly, a CON save is more than likely result in a success by that tier of play, so you'll be doing the 10d10 damage most of the time. All in all, Open Hand feels really basic and since it revolves around forcing saves on enemies, it also brings about one glaring problem with monks: MADness.
Shadow: Yes, the ninja subclass (apparently designed as a rogue subclass, don't quote me on that). If you felt that Open Hand Technique augmenting one of your main features was not much, wait until you see Shadow Arts. Let's break it down: 1action (not bonus action) + 2 ki points (of which you only have 3 when you get this) = 1 of 4 spells, this will surely mess with your resource management in AND out of combat, at least you get a free cantrip with this feature as well. But let's talk about the main reason you want to get this subclass (and maybe the reason it is not on a rogue): SHADOW STEP. Unlimited bonus action teleport as long as you and the place you want to go (within 60 feet) are in dim light/darkness? YES! AND you get advantage on your next attack? YES! Cloak of Shadows feels like a way to deal with creatures that have Darkvision, but again, this being for free makes it great, even if it costs you an action as goes away just like simple invisibility. Opportunist is a thing, you can combine this with Cloak of Shadows to be invisible during most of combat and attacking as a reaction, but base monks get something far better with Empty Body 1 level later; again this being free does not give you many reasons to complain. There is only 1 major problem with this subclass, it does not give you magical darkvision, so you don't have a reliable way to exploit the best spell Shadow Arts gives, which is Darkness, this can be mitigated, but only through multiclassing either with Warlock (to get Devil's Sight at level 2) or any other class that has spellcasting (ideally Cleric) and then getting the Eldritch Adept feat. All in all, apart from shooting yourself in the foot with Shadow Arts, this is the most Ki-friendly monk subclass there is.
Four Elements: No. Really, no. The moment you read "you can spend 1/2/3... ki points" on everything the class gives and not complemeting anything without having to spend ki points, you turn around and never look at this ever again. I know that some people will say that it makes the monk incredible versatile, but you'll be a base monk almost always after you used your versatile disciplines in 1 or 2 turns througout the whole campaign (how can you make me feel that the Warlock has more resources at its disposal than a Monk? HOW?).
Long Death: This one's not very attractive except for 1 thing: Mastery of Death, but since that's at level 11, let's go in order. Touch of Death, I know that I mentioned the Warlock before, but why did they bring the Fiend's 1st level feature here?, it only works within 5 ft., but I guess that killing a non-hostile creature (like a rat or a bug) counts for something (team kill sounds a lot more attractive now). Hour of Reaping, personally, rather than this feature in particular, I have a problem with the whole AoE save or frighten abilities. This one's better because it is unlimited, but it only last for a turn. Mastery of Death, finally, and what a fitting name, this solves the usual low HP monks have, it does make you save ki exlusively for this ability, but it is worth it, your only weaknesses now are multiple attacks or insta-kill abilities (notice how MoD doesn't even require you to be conscious). Touch of the Long Death, you'll be comparing this with Quivering Palm a lot, you don't have to, but you will; this one doesn't require an attack roll and is done in a single turn, however, the cost to at least match Quivering Palm's damage is 10 ki points (5 if the creature fails the CON); moreover you'll be considering whether to spend ki points here or save them for MoD. Same issues with the Open Hand, but rather than feeling very basic, you'll feel bored (starting at lvl 11, you won't use FoB that ofter).
Drunken Master: You want this for the RP value tied with the concept, not the subclass. What's this, you get TWO things right from the start? Ok, I like how this starts. 2 bonus proficiencies, one of which is for supplies..., I'll take them, hey, monks don't have acces to many proficiencies, you know? Druken Technique, getting Open Hand deja vú again? At least this one does not require a high Wis to use, and combining two bonus action features into 1 is very much appreciated. Tipsy Sway, TWO benefits AGAIN? This subclass is getting more and more attractive; 5 ft standing up instead of half movement is ok, I guess; redirect attack is on theme and looks nice, but you need some strategic positioning to pull it off. Drunkard's Luck, I don't think there're many features in the game that let you cancel disadvantage just cause you feel like it, 2 ki points for each roll is a little expensive, but that's when your decision making abilities come into play. Intoxicated Frenzy, works incredible well with Drunken Technique, you lose a little bit of damage focus, but you can spread damage more often now, and since you can move between attacks, you can position yourself to make use of Redirect Attack later on. This subclass resembles Open Hand a little bit, but it doesn't feel basic (even though its main focus is augmenting FoB), rather it feels odd; it's not powerful, but it is interesting to say the least.
This is getting a little bit long, so I'll continue later
There is an entire thread in these forums that I don't believe is that old yet that goes All throughout the 4 elements monk and how it is not what people make it out to be and how they do too much base assuming about it that it actually works differently than they talk about.
Ninslayer's definition of 4 Elements is a fine example of somebody that looked at a few numbers and then made assumptions about how the whole thing would work and didn't realistically compare it Objectively to other monks.
It's long and very in depth conversation but suffice it to say 4 Elements monks are different than other Monks. Not only in how they work but down to how you build them and the thread covers a lot of it.
Also it would be wise to note that most Monk ability guides are middling at best. Usually done under rules that actually are designed to work against the monk without people realizing it and often pushing builds that actually work against themselves, Such as building dex before anything but then advocating for using a save based ability as much as you can despite that ability actually being more successful with more attention to Wisdom.
Part 2 of my non-important opinion about monk subclasses:
Sun Soul: So, a martial artist that can create energy blasts from its body (funny enough, the subclass does not tell you where you shoot this blasts from, hands? feet? mouth?)? Ok, I haven't seen this concept before. Radiant Sun Bolt is the main feature you will be using (mostly kiting enemies from a distance and then running away) until you realize that, after running out of ki points, you are dealing less damage at range than a base monk at melee. When I first read this feature, I missed a very important detail, which led me to believe that it was an amazing ability... The Sun Bolts are NOT monk weapons, nor do they count as unarmed strikes; I thought that it was not important, but the feature tells you quite literally "This special attack is a ranged spell attack...", why is this so important? You lose the free bonus action unarmed strike from Martial Arts that the main class has AND the new Ki-fueled attack feature from TCE doesn't apply to this as well. Radiant Sun Soul does mimic the basic unarmed strike + FoB mechanic pretty well, but you will soon realize it is not a ranged Martial Arts. Searing Arc Strike, a bonus action Burning Hands? Hmm, tempting but unless you are hitting multiple enemies, you are more likely dealing more damage (and from a better type) attacking 4 times Radiant Sun Bolt (2 from main attack + 2 bonus action); at least this one guarantees damage (hope your enemies don't make the save to halve it). Searing Sunburst is essentially a discount version of Fireball, but with a few tweaks. IT'S FREE! At least the most basic version (2d6) and you can spend ki points to add more damage (8d6 at full power), it has good range (150 ft), decent AoE (20 ft radius sphere) and it's Radiant damage (not as commonly resisted as fire). However, the CON save isnt a full (fail) or half (pass) save, it's a full (fail) or nothing (pass) save; you are going to force a CON save every single turn for something that may not even deal signigicant damage in its basic form (at least is a good way to have your DM rolling on your turns). Sun Shield... [BLANK] if you didn't have darkvision until lvl 17th, this can help you now... oh, and you can use your reaction to deal 5-10 damage on an opponent that hit you... with a melee attack (which you are not supposed to be taking AT RANGE)... Quite frankly, I liked this subclass at first, but it is mostly bait; it forces the player to be at a distance most of the time (RSB and Searing Sunburst), but some of its feature work better at close or even melee range (SAC and Sun Shield). The Ki DC problem is even more evident with this subclass than with the previous ones.
Astral Self: One of the two subclasses from Tasha's, haven't played it yet, so I can only make a superficial analysis. Arms of the Astral Self, ok so this one has two aspects, one at activation and one that lasts for 10 minutes, this is great, it means that 1 feature has more than 1 benefits. On activation, you spend 1 ki point on a bonus action to summon the arms, it may seem that you are losing a bit of potential damage from your modifiers (hitting with a FoB), but, just like Searing Arc Strike from the Sun Soul, you can get more damage depending on how many creatures you can hit. After that you get the main attraction from this class: the spectral arms can make unarmed strikes (I can hear the Sun Soul's soul screaming); the spectral arms have a +5 ft reach; AND you can use Wisdom instead of Dex or Str for the attack and damage rolls (with the damage being force damage), and also you can grapple using wisdom as well. This solves the MADness of monks to such a degree that you can finally have a good Ki DC and good modifiers for your attacks. There's a catch however... you can't afford to be incapacitated after you summon your arms, if you do you lose everything you have, and the more powerful your astral self becomes, the bigger this weakness becomes. Visage of the Astral Self, an extra ki point on top of the one you need for the arms may sound like a lot, but it can be used both in (mainly the magical darkvision) and out of combat to augment your versatility and social encounters. Body of the Astral Self, a free feature? Kinda, it does require you to summon both the arms and the visage, so that's a 2 ki points bonus action, but it gives you 2 extra benefits, Deflect Energy is basically Deflect Missiles, but for elemental damage and you don't add your monk level; Empowered Arms makes you a better damage dealer, or you can start crit-fishing now, since it does work just like Divine Smite. Awakened Astral Self, it seems that to go at full power you need to spend 5 ki points now, huh? Ok let's see if it's a fair trade; Armor of the Spirit gives you a +2 to your AC... Hmm, fine I guess? You already maxed out your Wis, so your Dex may still not be maxed, so your AC needs a little help; Astral Barrage, 3 attacks as part of the Attack action? Great! Now you have more chances to crit-fish and you are dealing at minimum 3d10+15 (main attack) + 2d10+10 (FoB) + 1d10 (Empowered Arms) = 6d10+25 or 5d10+20 if you are not using FoB but you are still using the free bonus action attack. I think this subclass is great to try since it makes for an interesting style of ranged-melee monk, but you must be really careful with the incapacitated condition (it is also caused by other conditions, like stunned or paralized), there's an incredible amount of things that can make you waste your ki points before you can use your full power.
I didn't look at just a few numbers, I really kept in mind how many ki points you had at each step in which you get new subclass features and how it really compares with the other subclasses, me mentioning the Warlock was not to be taken as part of the main opinion. "Working differently" does not necessarily mean "working efficiently" I know that it is the one subclass that's screaming "DON'T BE STUPID AND MAX WISDOM FIRST!" (since you want the Ki DC to be high as soon as possible), but it's also the one that brings the ki point consumption that the main class has to the absolute limit (I did mention that Shadow Arts is way to expensive the moment you get it, didn't I?). You start with picking some uses of prestidigitation or 1 use of shape water, control flames or mold earth (why gust isn't here is beyond me) and only 1 discipline at level 3 (I don't know which one you'd pick, but based on utility, I'd go for either Rush of the Gale Spirits or Shape the Flowing River) with only 3 ki points to use (so at level 3 that's only 1 use of Rush or 3 of River depending on my pick, with no more ki points to use). Disciplines also have a problem, they work like known spells, you can only change them when you learn a new one (at levels 6, 11 and 17), that's way too far in between, you can't be that versatile if you have to stick to the chosen discipline that long (and you may have chosen one trying to experiment with your character). If a player on my table is using a Four elements monk, I'd allow them to treat them as prepared spells, changing them on each long rest, or at least at every monk level they get. Oh, and don't use the typical "short rest" excuse, relying on the DM is not a good thing and your party may be one that only takes long rests, with no stop in-between.
You also don't mention the fact that the Four Elements monk gives you only the Elemental Attunements and Disciplines, nothing else (something I only mention on Open Hand, for lvl 6 and 11, but it would also apply to the very simple benefits some of the other subclasses get). It doesn't compliment it with any further features, getting more attunements and disciplines is something that should be implied in the lvl 3 feature, not the whole features you get at lvl 6, 11 and 17, not depending on the Martial Arts die is a good thing, but there needs be some scaling outside upcasting the disciplines. There should be some improvements on the disciplines, like at level 6 if you used an elemental discipline as part of your action, you can move up to half your speed as part of the same action (or smth better), at level 11, your elemental disciplines could ignore resistance and inmunity to their damage type and at level 17 if you reduce a hostile creature to 0 hit points with an elemental discipline, you could recover half the ki points you used to cast it.
If the monk had more ki points at its disposal, you can bet that the four elements monk would be way more popular than it is now. I would like it if the amount of ki points a monk had was something like monk level + wisdom modifier, or having its 20th level ability come much earlier (like at level 2, together with the introduction of ki points) and instead of giving you 4 ki points, it gave you 1/3 of your total (it would scale with your level and it takes until lvl 12 to get 4).
You like the subclass the way it is? Fine, it's your opinion. But you can't deny the fact that Four Elements suffers a little from some bad design and a lot from the problems the main class already has.
NinSlayer
Before you and Fateless end up going back and forth about the pros and cons of 4 elements monk, here is the thread he/she was referring to:
Way of the Four Elements Monk
In it, you will see several arguments discussed at length regarding the viability of the subclass, including apparent lack of features and disciplines and potential damage output and ki consumption.
There is alot to dig through there, but it may give you a more in-depth understanding of the subclass and show you its benefits (or reinforce your point of view that it is not a very good subclass).
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Before I go on and read the other thread which seems interesting I'd just like to mention some thanks for the posts + a little side note that I think is important, especially for the 4 elements class and it's that I have some issues with the class, even if it's good or not, and its
1: It is called 4 elements but the first impression + reading it a few times, gives the impression that you're hard struck to manage to get even 2 elements in now and then. It's like if the way of shadows monk was able to carry a candle = make small shadows. You feel tricked. It doesn't feel like a monk with some incredible ability to use the 4 elements. Heck they don't even seem to be able to use one element very well. Making a level 1 monk/lvl X sorcerer who focused on elemental spells would feel more like a master of the 4 elements than what his subclass gives as an overview. And sure, they might actually be able to do stuff at level 20 but if I play a way of the 4 elements monk and can't use 4 elements by level 8 regularily, it's not a way of the elements monk in my eyes. Tldr: it doesn't seem to give the 4 elements until at best in a VERY high level since you have to pick certain elemental options.
2: It also seems you get to do them very little, using your Ki, an already limited resource, to do... what just seems like lack-luster spell effects. I'm not saying they are, I'm just saying that's what they seem like and this IS a problem. If you make the best car in the world but no one uses it, it's stil the most useless car in the world. I feel like there's few options for actually using your elements, even just one of them, until you become much much higher level. Look at how way of mercy lets you either heal or harm quite a lot. You would feel much more like a way of the 4 elements monk if you had that similar ability but with the option to deal fire, cold, lightning and.. acid i guess? :S Too few options, too late it seems.
Now I'm gonna read that other post.
Also, I do have some issues with the general monk as well, always did. I always felt they took the feel of the monk too far into the mystic part. I don't dislike that as an option but I feel like it could have been left out of the base, but I know this is a design that would be very hard to implement in 5e especially considering the way it's based on their subclasses + I understand it's probably not a lot of people feeling this. To put it in some kinda perspective I'd like the idea of a "clean slate" like the fighter whereas the monks base is more like a eldritch knight-cleric or something (full of all kinds of magic stuff :p )
Edit: I'd like to add a note that I'd be fine with having just one element out of the 4. like way of the 4 elements fire monk, if it meant I'd have enough fun things to do with that element as well.
Edit 2: I read through a bunch of it. I really like Fateless suggestions for more disciplines with unique (not replicating spells) options, especially in combination with the suggestion of being able to pick more options. That would make it seem more interesting and fun, feel more like it was a master of elements and wouldn't change the balance that much as I understand it seems like a pretty balanced class if played "right".
One thing to keep in mind about Ki costs. and i cover it repeatedly and at length in that thread shown.
Thank you for digging that up by the way, I've been very busy and hadn't had the chance to go trying to find it.
But Ki as a resource is very deceptive. Depending on how many rests you get and how often you get in combat you have more or less of it. Potentially a lot more of it. Like Triple the number on your sheet over the course of the day more of it because of how you refresh them if your doing the 2 short rests.
This means that high costs aren't necessarily so high. And I do give ways to address this somewhat and some real dangers to some people's "quick fixes" I even point out potential traps in at least one of my own fixes.
As for Building into Monk or monk building into 4 elements. I touch on it in that thread. They do build into each other. But not in the way of "I hit stuff more with a little twist" like so many other monk sub classes. They get a little more into the design theme around monk and a little less into a couple of basic features. Though there are abilities that touch into those as well and there should probably be a couple more.
But 4 elements monk has that same kind of thing shadow monk has. The costs are really high at real low level but then they fall off. Shadow Monk doesn't build into that and people don't play it at as low of level as is crippling as they make 4 elements monk out to be as often as they might say. People aren't really aware of the shift in dynamic that exists at real low levels. Or the perils and challenges that exist that shift a bit once you get sub classes and your first ASI and extra attack. Those levels right in that 3 to 5 range really shift a lot of classes.
But as you kind of touched on yourself in the second Edit of your last post. More than other kinds of monks even. You kind of have to build it and play it right. That's a challenge. Particular when most things on the internet are telling you that the right way for it is actually wrong.
As for the Single Element Idea. i'm not against that. But it means that we as players have to get with our DM's and do some work to really do that. Because there just isn't a lot of support or added material for the 4 elements monk. They've just kind of forgotten it. So we have to fill in gaps to kind of become masters of a single element or choose to dabble in many elements.
Edit:Monk is a class I really do like and it's something I've put some time into testing and working to understand and even failing at. But if i hadn't done that it's a class I might have overlooked myself. But I've always gone my own way to an extent and sometimes found things that really surprised others as I tried to understand things. But I also accept that even without the labels of such it is kind of an advanced class when it comes to what it takes to play one. Which also means it's actually a hard one to share with people how to play well. And some of the subclasses even more so. So I can only try to give people the understanding so that they can apply it when they need to. Which takes some outright practice on their part.
I've been wondering this lately, instead of "fixing" the subclass (or the class for that matter), how about creating a feat to help it? A DM would be more inclined to add that to a game, since it'd be something that all players can use instead of the one(s) playing the Four Elements monk. Something akin to Eldritch, Metamagic and Martial Adept? Like this:
Do you think that this is too much? Or that it would help more players be interested in trying the FE monk? (I purposedly made it like this so that the best disciplines could only be picked by a monk)
It is a potential solution.
It also makes a 4 elements monk better than other monks because it gives no ability to upcast the abilities. The upcasting ability isn't part of the Disciplines themselves. It's actually part of the Elemental Casting ability of the 4 elements monk. And I'm actually ok with this. Being a Feat it's not something that just anybody is going to be willing to take or take repeatedly either.
With respect, may I add a very different perspective: Role-Playing?
My first PC in D&D is a Monk, not because I want it to beat every single monster or have all mighty ultimate punch. Synergy of race and class, background, and stats are important. However when I created my character I asked just 2 questions:
- What are the motivations of the character to go to adventure? (Totally! Be the master of kung fu and rebuild the destroyed monk temple!)
- Is there any great potential to role playing? (Jackie Chan was my inspiration! No one gets bored from his stunts!)
Jackie was not the kung fu master as Bruce Lee, but he has his own charm without being the best in combat. He is versatile in and out of combat. That´s was my idea when I created my open hand monk, and really loved the character. Adding a weird hobby of collecting bones and use them as cloth, it helped me with lots role playing specially when I want to tease our cleric. Haha!
So, before considering the race, subclass, etc... What was your character idea and what do you want to explorer (roleplay) as monk out of combat?
That's actually just as much of a problem because I don't feel the main monk features or any subclass gives a good Jackie Chan or Bruce Lee feel. They are all into crouching tiger hidden dragon territory, mystic flashy weird stuff. Maybe previous editions more than 5e but still.
To play Bruce Lee I feel it would be more fitting to go dexterious fighter, especially now with the unarmed weapon style.
That's part of the issue for me because I can deal with wanting to play the unarmed warrior and having a few mystic things, like ki, it's fine. But then you pick a subclass and you're some kinda creepy deathlord, superadvanced anime type with death punches that kills you days after or something and so on. It's all very flashy and dramatic.
Unfortunately this gives me the feel of either a comic relief character going hwaaaoooooohhh with outstretched arms, or the overly cool mysterious imsocoolman character. Or the incredibly old guy with a long beard.
Nothing wrong with those just that it's not what I want to play but what I feel the class forces upon me. I've tried to think around it but all the subclasses keep bringing it to that point.
Your Selling both Bruce Lee and the Monk very short with these posts. Not to mention Which Bruce Lee are you talking about? Because if your talking about the Movie Screen Bruce Lee. He very much is that "I'm so cool man" outstretched arm wavey type of character. And Jackie chan is very heavily comic relief in many of his martial arts themed movies and not just roles that just happen to use a bit of martial arts. There Are two very different Jackie Chan's when it comes to the movies, partly based on if they are american or Chinese movies.
but Bruce Lee as a martial artist and not an actor was very different. Jackie Chan is as well. Bruce would rely on brutal efficiency of movement when not on stage. But at the same time would be insulted if you made him out to be a mere fighter. he had trouble showing it at times but he was actually very proud of the tradition that taught him even while he understood that for movies of his time it was impractical to sell which put him at odds to some extent with both groups.
And both him and Jackie started in styles that were as much about turning an opponent on themselves as outright attacking them. Which i represented by the monk class to some extent in various ways. But if all your seeing is anime character. That's not really on the class. Because there is very little about the class that is Anime. There is a lot about the class however that does draw from old Kung Fu movies. Which in turn were stylized versions of actual martial arts brought to life on the screen. legendary death punches, even ones that don't immediately kill, are a part of the lore and the mystery of martial arts and it's culture. That wasn't just invented by the movies. That was only adapted by them.
The Fighter with Unarmed Fighting can't capture that and in some respects is just as anime as anything about the monk if People want to look at it that way.
Yeah, I just feel that the tradition and legends about things, and actually doing it are different things. In "reality". In the case of the monk it's more true. I don't argue that traditions about the martial arts are bad, like I said I don't mind the specifics of Ki in the game and so on, it's a cool concept that works well in game terms for the most part. The 5e monk is less over the top when it comes to speed than it used to be, but it's still a lot of speed, still I can live with it. Stunning strike and magic attacks makes sense in the way that it's cool + if you couldn't deal damage to certain creatures at a certain point of time it would be kinda bad, even though it would open up for some weapon usage and I don't think it would be too unbalanced. It would force you to use weapons though and for some characters I think it would be kinda unfair and limiting really. But all in all the martial aspects are pretty much fine, they do more than a regular fighter could without being over the top. They still enter the real of the martial arts traditions in my opinion. Even the whole thing with affecting saves is incredibly good but "ok" because of this. Here's where they lose me though:
Not suffering from old age, is ok-ish, I get it and it helps open up for more varied age groups. It's fine. Not needing food and water anymore though, is starting to get a bit weird. Immunity to disease and poison is a bit weird though I can understand the concept of cleansing your body through ki/the mastery of your body so it's a bit borderline but still getting quite weird. Understanding all languages is just bonkers. Empty body is also just out there.
I'm not saying these abilities are bad or unbalanced or anything really, I'm just saying these abilities give the class a whole other feel. Imagine if all fighters learned to cast magic at level 10, it would be a completely different feel from the martial class they are now. It's how I feel the monk goes from a martial class with martial arts traditional tendencies and some cool features of those legends, to all out full legendary divinehood monk. It's just too much and too weird. I know I don't have to use them, and it's all a bit late in the class, but it is still there and that to me gives me a different feel of the class.
I'd have appreciated it much more if it was more akin to the warlocks invocations, you get a few now and then and you could pick Ageless, empty body, and all the weirdly odd over the top (not necessarily overpowered) abilities, but also more options of perhaps "perfect balance" where you could do tricks like a handstand on a staff and either have resistance to being tripped or just be immune to it. Now, being tripped is of course not a big problem in 5E as it is, especially for a monk, but still. Just the ability to pick a few things that aren't some kinda supreme connection to the all of it that allows me to speak with graguffians from alienspace 9 automatically.
And again, note that while I joke about it a bit, I don't necessarily say these abilities are overpowered or anything, just that I feel they are too extreme for me and shape the feel of the entire class (even before entering subclasses). I can absolutely see myself playing with someone playing a monk and thinking it's cool they can do that, it's just not the feel I appreciate as it is.
This is also part of what I like about the way of mercy, they basically build upon the basic martial stuff, but allow you to do better things with them. Suddenly you can not just strike the enemy but also make a healing touch or harm them with the mastery of this "basic" ki.
To be fair, in a way the open hand does it too, the first two abilities are quite ok. Then suddenly you project peace. Now, I love sanctuary, it's a cool spell. I don't feel it has anything to do in a "open hand technique" tradition though. In fact since I talked about it just before, it seems much more fitting in a "way of mercy" tradition, though I'm glad it's not in there. It's just such a weird ability. (once again, not bad or overpowered or useless, not even uncool). And quivering palm. Yes. I get it. But no. I do not like it at all. I'd actually appreciate it more if it was an instant effect, like hit, save or die, over. PERHAPS a few turns, so you could make a cool monologue about "sorry mate but you're already dead" (except more monkish) But yeah it's there.
Way of the long death has some potential and at least follows the theme of the subclass a bit, but they are just too serial killer psycopath ultra evil.. I mean they don't just study death, they literally capture creatures to watch them die in different ways. They are easily the most evil class in the game they way they are written ;)
Anyways Since this is the feel I get from the base class, I hope you can understand my problem better. As I said, I really do want to like the class, I just have a hard time since the base class goes bananas and many of the subclasses progress it as well. Thanks for all the replies though!
Yeah good discussion but it ultimately proves one point very clearly....the subclass is at best dividing. Surveys put it near the bottom in terms of popularity most of the time. Even the survey we did on the forums it got a single vote for favorite subclass.
Take that information how you will but I believe it shows at least something towards its quality vs. the other subclasses.
That doesn't speak to it's quality. As that thread showed. A lot of people don't even know it's quality. There were various people in that thread that admitted after a point that they never really played it or that what little they did play it it wasn't really with the purpose of really trying to play it but more settling for it and the perception of it and falling into the same traps that the Main monk subclass has as well. I even called a couple of them out on it.
What it shows is just how pervasive and Damaging and wide Spread an opinion can get without being based on much more than a look and perhaps a few clumsy attempts. Which is something the Monk itself suffers from as well. There are several examples of this throughout the forums. And even a couple that show what some people think is popular opinion really isn't if you dig through the various forums.
Something to note as well. I responded in that thread saying that it's hard to pick a favorite. But what most people may not realize is that I didn't cast a vote because i like a lot of monks differently for different reasons. I can't say that I have just one favorite.
Also Way of the cobalt soul is ranked just as low from the looks of it when I go and look at the results now. That doesn't mean it's bad.
And finally your misrepresenting what that poll even states. It's stating "what is your favorite subclass" Just because something is not somebodies favorite subclass does not mean they do not like it. It is not some kind of binary switch. you do not automatically hate all other choices other than the one you pick normally. This can be leaned on even more because there is nothing really bad said about 4 elements monk in the few responses in that poll. There is acknowledgement of certain failings but nothing actually said against it. And those failings are in the longer thread that discusses the subclass far more in depth as well.
Wait, so we've shifted from "I don't like the subclasses, so try to convince me to play them" to "The concept and abilities of the base monk do not fit what I thought they should, and the subclasses make it seem to even more unrealistic or out-of-theme?" Then, the issue is not for us to try and encourage you to play something you think is not a monk, but picking a class that's fitting of the concept you already have of the class. For that matter, not all monks are martial artist, nor is every martial artist a monk.
Taking into account the concept of each tradition, the most "down-to-earth" traditions would be Drunken Master (again, RP value over power), Shadows (the movie concept of ninja is there...) and Open Hand (apart from Tranquility, everything else does not seem so flashy nor farfetched). You could say Mercy fits, but rising someone from death sounds a little out there, don't you think? (If it kept its UA final ability, then sure, it would fit)
I just want to touch on these two points. The things your talking about here like resisting poison and disease. which you even acknowledge slightly about Balance and mastery of body a little. These are not something made up or wierd about Monk. These are somewhat grounded abilities but they are also abilities that relate back to the lore of martial arts and their traditions as well. Being much healthier is not only part of taking care of your body naturally but Martial Arts was often practiced by those that had chronic illnesses and such to help fight them off. The ability to resist poisons and Disease is again part of the story about them and it is one that while exagerated somewhat it in the stories is partly because of the way some things really work. The Old Age seems odd at a glance but at the same time, This is another aspect of the stories and traditions around martial arts. The Venerable, even ones that lived much longer than the average were often in some way tied to practicing martial arts. Not always but often enough that it became part of the myth. This effect is also toned down greatly in 5e. There were versions of this in older editions where Monks literally stopped aging once they hit a certain class level and gained this type of ability. They could only die from violent or forceful acts.
And the idea of being able to speak to anybody reaches back towards certain religious practices by certain sects that practiced monastic martial arts traditions that Englightenment opened up one to many things including an understanding of others that could transend verbal communication. It's probably one of the farther fetched less grounded things monks get. But it's also a ribbon ability that only has role play value.
As for your Complaints of the Long Death. Monks do not have to be good. This is an idea that really must be shed. It's slowly been shed for the Paladin. But it was never true for the Monk. Monks alignment restriction was always that they had to be lawful. Which does include evil as well as good. This restriction was only lifted in 5e and it only seems to be lifted because they basically lifted almost all of the other alignment retrictions for everybody else anyway.
Long Death coming off as dark. This is not unfitting for the Monk. Not only because they were never only good. But also there are stories of very dark, very spiteful, and even very evil monks. A Few of the greatest masters were also some of the most vengeful people in certain tradtional stories. This goes so far that the so called Death Punch or Death Touch Technique's that are the basis for Quivering Palm actually originate partly in stories of such Monks. One Particular one was of a Monk that got bumped into on the Road. And because the person that bumped into him did not immediately grovel and beg forgiveness to the Monk, who considered himself superior of station. he actually afflicted the man with a strike that did not immediately kill him but actually gave him some time, the amount varies based upon the telling of the story you get it from. For some it was a few steps, for others it was a few days. But when the man never made amends for what the monk Percieved as an insult despite being a mere accident. The Man keeled over and died exactly where he was. Nothing about this is anywhere close to a Good Act or done by what could be considered a Moral Character. But it can technically be considered Lawful alignment wise in the sense that the Monk had a rigid moral code and sense of hierarchy and he stuck to it no matter the consequences because those were the codified rules he lived his life by at all times (it's not very different from the kind of lawful that made the idiot Paladin trope everything it came to be known for).
Quality is in your own words subjective and if a lot of people subjectively don't like the subclass... Well there were are.
As for the whole poll on which is your favorite subclass and way of the 4 elements being picked only once was it? The point is that this poll doesn't say which your least favorite is. In fact if we had a poll that had the question "what is your second favorite monk subclass" asked to the exact same people, maybe they ALL thought way of the 4 monks was the second favorite. Same with 3rd, 4th and so on. We don't know because the poll was only about the absolute favorite.
So it doesn't really say anything about way of the 4 monks except that not many people have it as their favorite. It could still be one of the most liked classes in general (i mean imagine if it IS the 2nd pick for everyone, that's a pretty good grade tbh).