But I think the addition of attacks to flurry of blows doesn't affect Mercy Monk, It replaces only one hit and even the later features doesn't specify quantity.
Way of Sun Soul’s Radiant Sun Bolt has a replacement for Flurry of Blows.
“When you take the Attack action on your turn and use this special attack as part of it, you can spend 1 ki point to make the special attack twice as a bonus action”
If flurry of blows was moved to be part of the Attack action (instead of bonus action), then Sun Soul at LVL 5 could go nova with melee attack, sun bolt, spend 1 ki for Flurry of blows (1 unarmed strike), then spend 1 ki for bonus action 2 sun bolts. Therefore to avoid shenanigans, I believe Flurry of Blows will have to stay a bonus action.
Way of Mercy’s Hand of Healing ability was written assuming more than 1 attack during Flurry of Blows. That is another strike against moving Flurry of Blows to the Attack action.
Adding more unarmed strikes to Flurry of Blows still seems possible. I was concerned about the interaction with Drunken Master’s Intoxicated Flurry, but Drunken Master still pays 1 ki for 5 attacks.
Yep and he only has to hit 4 different targets since the bonus action doesn't count as "flurry of blows" with 2 he has to hit 5 different and with 3 he has to hit 6 different. But still it synergizes well with that feature.
Hand of mercy I actually agree. With only 1 attack counting as "flurry of blows" you have less chances to trigger it if that attack misses.
My original fix was Flurry stayed as it was, Step of the wind became just a bonus action no ki cost. And Patient defence became 1 ki cost, but no action required. But much like ranger, Getting nothing but a subclass feature at 11 for monk is what makes it difficult for them to keep up in that tier of play if the subclass doesn't offer anything substantial. This is the real reason Drunken Master, Kensei monk and open hand monk have a bigger problem scaling into later levels compared to mercy, astral and ascendant dragon.
I was thinking about this solution to solve the ki problem. This solution reminds me of how the cultivators use their life force when they no longer have ki power.
Quickened Healing
Also at 4th level, as an action, you can spend 2 ki powers and roll a Martial Arts die. You or one willing creature that you touch regain a number of hit points equal to the number rolled plus your proficiency bonus. Additionally, you can do the reverse operation to recover 2 ki points. (only on yourself)
I was wondering if it wouldn't be interesting to create a set of spell list just for the monk. These would be special attacks, a mist between martial arts and psychic / Ki powers. Basically a magic system just for monk attacks. Unfortunately I'm not convinced of this idea yet, I'm afraid it might look too much like 4e. But I think that if the magical martial arts were limited and semplifiacte could result in something interesting. I would love to know your opinion regarding this idea.
Ki Weapon
Martial Art cantrip Casting Time: 1 action Range: Self (5-foot radius) Components: S, M (a monk weapon or unarmed strike) Duration: Instantaneous
Make a melee attack against one creature within 5 feet of you, and choise one damage type: acid, cold, fire, lightning, poison, or thunder. On a hit, the target suffers the attack’s normal effects, and you can cause the element choise to leap from the target to a different creature of your choice that you can see within 5 feet of it. The second creature takes the choise elemental damagethe equal to your spellcasting ability modifier.
If you decide to use a Ki power, you can add special effects to your ki weapon attack:
1) Your attack becomes a 10 feet ranged attack, at 5th level 30 feet, at 11th level 90 feet, at 17th level 120 feet, and all enemies that are near the affected enemy take elemental damage equal to your wisdom.
2) The adjacent enemy receives the same elemental damage as the hit enemy.
3) Instead of attacking a single enemy you can divide the damage by how many martial arts dice you are going to roll. Each attack will result in a roll to hit and you won't be able to move and hit the same opponent, but each person hit will also receive additional damage equal to your wisdom.
4) The speed of the hit target is reduced by 10 feet until the start of your next turn, at 5th level 15 feet, at 11th level 20 feet, at 17th level 30 feet,
5) ....
At Higher Levels. At 5th level, the melee attack deals an extra martial art die of the chosen element damage to the target on a hit. The damage roll increase by another martial arts die at 11th level and 17th level yet another.
1-4= (Wp + dex / next + wis) 5-10= (Wp+dex +1d6 / next + wis) 11-14= (Wp+dex +2d8 / next +wis) 15-16= (Wp+dex +2d10 / next +wis) 17-18= (Wp+dex +3d10 / next +wis) 19-20= (Wp+dex +3d12 / next +wis)
I’m not a big fan of adding the spellcasting feature to monks, even 4E monks (they can cast spells but don’t have the spellcasting feature).
Your cantrip idea is interesting, and maybe a better fit as an elemental discipline for 4E. But I worry that it is a bit too complicated or too powerful. I’m not sure. having so many options turns it into the “Swiss army knife” of abilities so why take anything else when this one thing does it all. For 4E, why take Fangs of the Fire Snake when this does it better?
Some thoughts on the cantrip:
The damage to adjacent target should probably be WIsdom modifier.
Are all the options 1 Ki point? Can you choose more than one option if you spend more Ki?
1) What do you mean by “all enemies near”? Is it 5’? 10’? Should be clarified and Wisdom modifier damage.
2) Adjacent target takes same damage. Does that mean you roll once for initial target and the adjacent target takes same? Or do you roll their damage separately? Do they still take modifier damage from the initial “main” effect on top of that?
3) is a little confusing. So this is a level 5 and higher ability since that is the only time you can roll multiple die? Needs different wording for clarification.
4) Does the adjacent target that is also hit by the attack also have their speed reduced or is it only the initial target?
I’m not a big fan of adding the spellcasting feature to monks, even 4E monks (they can cast spells but don’t have the spellcasting feature).
Your cantrip idea is interesting, and maybe a better fit as an elemental discipline for 4E. But I worry that it is a bit too complicated or too powerful. I’m not sure. having so many options turns it into the “Swiss army knife” of abilities so why take anything else when this one thing does it all. For 4E, why take Fangs of the Fire Snake when this does it better?
Some thoughts on the cantrip:
The damage to adjacent target should probably be WIsdom modifier.
Are all the options 1 Ki point? Can you choose more than one option if you spend more Ki?
1) What do you mean by “all enemies near”? Is it 5’? 10’? Should be clarified and Wisdom modifier damage.
2) Adjacent target takes same damage. Does that mean you roll once for initial target and the adjacent target takes same? Or do you roll their damage separately? Do they still take modifier damage from the initial “main” effect on top of that?
3) is a little confusing. So this is a level 5 and higher ability since that is the only time you can roll multiple die? Needs different wording for clarification.
4) Does the adjacent target that is also hit by the attack also have their speed reduced or is it only the initial target?
I too think that a classical system for monk spells would not work well. Although I must say that having a martial arts spell list like in dnd 4 edition might be a solution for those looking for the martial arts master. Especially for an order factor.
Someone told me that my monk variant is too forced towards a magic class, it's like it wants to be a spellcaster but doesn't have a system to be one. So I thought about simplifying a cantrip with multiple options, but as you well said it becomes too strong and adaptable. Maybe it could work for a 4 element monk variant.
Ki weapon
Martial Art cantrip Casting Time: 1 action Range: Self (5-foot radius) Components: S, M (a monk weapon or unarmed strike) Duration: Instantaneous
Make a melee attack against one creature within 5 feet of you, and choise one damage type: acid, cold, fire, lightning, poison, or thunder. On a hit, the target suffers the attack’s normal effects, and you can change the damage done in the chosen element.
At Higher Levels. At 5th level, the melee attack deals an extra martial art die of the chosen element damage to the target on a hit. The damage roll increase by another martial arts die at 11th level and 17th level yet another.
If you decide to use a Ki power, you can add special effects to your ki weapon attack:
1) Your attack becomes a 10 feet ranged attack, at 5th level 30 feet, at 11th level 90 feet, at 17th level 120 feet, and one enemies that is within 5 feet of the affected enemy take elemental damage equal to your wisdom.
2) Instead of attacking a single enemy you can divide the damage by how many martial arts dice you are going to roll. Each attack will result in a roll to hit and you won't be able to move and hit the same opponent, but each person hit will also receive additional damage equal to your wisdom modifier. For example at 11th level instead of doing (Wp+dex +2d8) you can do (Wp + dex)+(1d8 +wis)+(1d8 +wis) <<similar to eldritch blast>>
3) The speed of the enemy hit is reduced by 10 feet until the start of your next turn, at 5th level 15 feet, at 11th level 20 feet, at 17th level 30 feet,
4) You can choose to hit your enemy and any enemy within 5 feet of you must pass a dexterity saving throw or take elemental damage. at 11th level 10 feet, at 17th level 15 feet.
5) You can choose to hit your enemy and any enemy within 5 feet of you must pass a dexterity saving throw or be knocked prone. at 5th level 10 feet, at 11th level 15 feet, at 17th level 20 feet. The elemental energy lingers in the affected area making it a difficult terrain until the end of your next turn.
As with Xaolin Buddhist or Taoist monks being a skilled weapons user should be second nature! Especially when it comes to the typical staff... None leave the walls of their monastery on foot without a walking staff; typically eyebrow height in length is what is used during their travels asking for alms.
I've always felt that this should be considered in the D&D core rules. The use of the straight sword is also something that they excel with! Which makes me wonder why a monk can not also be a "kensai"; as the "sword saint's" skills are technically those of a monk, unless the kensai is supposed to be more along the lines of a samurai; in which case they should also be skilled with the long bow! My ideas about kensai might be better noted under that specific class posting area. I have plenty more realistic input ideas related to their use of chi and their specific skills!
Thanks in advance to anyone that reads this with an open mind!
Spell casting by a monk is not the typical use of magic as experienced in the D&D world it is the use of Chi which to "normal" people might seem like magic as the average person has no experience with using Chi in their lives on a normal basis.
Monks having magic skills makes sense to some extent but, it would have to be introduced in a realistic manner.
I may not have explained myself well. By the system of spells I meant only the system and not the spells themselves. Imagine the same system but instead of spells there were martial arts techniques that the monk has to choose from his list and to activate them the monk has to use his ki. You could also create different schools of martial arts like the schools of magic. Like schools composed of the 4 elements, ,or animals ,or something else.
Like the monk's list of special attacks (at-will) in dnd 4 edition.
There have been a lot of good ideas in this thread. Some have been minor adjustments or additions. While others have been almost complete overhauls of the class. Who knows what direction WotC will go with the 2024 edition. Hopefully, they will see comments around these forums and take them into consideration. Although I am not holding my breath on that. But I do hope they tweak the Monk to make some improvements.
In keeping with this thread, and ideas that would be backwards compatible for 2024, I had another thought on a slight change in the core class. In the Spoiler tag below I have the Monk table with the non-Ki features separate from the features that use Ki.
LEVEL
NON-KI
KI
Tier 1
1
Unarmored Defense, Martial Arts
2
Unarmored Movement
Ki: PD, SotW, FoB
3
Monastic Tradition Feature
Deflect Missiles
4
ASI, Slow Fall
Tier 2
5
Extra Attack
Stunning Strike
6
Ki Empowered Strike, Monastic Tradition Feature
7
Evasion, Stillness of Mind
8
ASI
9
Unarmored Movement
10
Purity of Body
Tier 3
11
Monastic Tradition Feature
12
ASI
13
Tongue of the Sun and Moon
14
Unarmored Movement
Diamond Soul
15
Timeless Body
16
ASI
Tier 4
17
Monastic Tradition Feature
18
Unarmored Movement
Empty Body
19
ASI
20
Perfect Self
pasting this from an Excel file doesn't hold the formatting and column width, so I apologize if it fits weird.
In Tier 1 of play (levels 1-4) Monks gain several Ki abilities, then only 1 Ki ability in each of the subsequent Tiers of play. So that got me thinking that maybe we should just expand the Ki feature Monks gain at level 2 to include picking one of three abilities for each Tier, that is appropriate for that Tier of play. I don't want to go more than three options as it can make it too unwieldy and complicated. I don't have all of the options fleshed out yet. Some I had written down but left them at work and don't recall all of them. Suggestions are welcome. I just wanted to get thoughts on this idea before pursuing it further. And I also apologize if someone else has posted this idea. With some many ideas in this thread and others I hope I'm not copying it from someone else.
Ki (revised 2nd-level Monk Feature)
Ki
Starting at 2nd level, your training allows you to harness the mystic energy of ki. Your access to this energy is represented by a number of ki points. Your monk level determines the number of points you have, as shown in the Ki Points column of the Monk table.
You can spend these points to fuel various ki features. You start knowing threefour such features: Flurry of Blows, Patient Defense, Step of the Wind and one Ki Technique listed below. You learn more ki features as you gain levels in this class.
When you spend a ki point, it is unavailable until you finish a short or long rest, at the end of which you draw all of your expended ki back into yourself. You must spend at least 30 minutes of the rest meditating to regain your ki points.
Some of your ki features require your target to make a saving throw to resist the feature’s effects. The saving throw DC is calculated as follows:
Ki save DC = 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Wisdom modifier
Flurry of Blows
Immediately after you take the Attack action on your turn, you can spend 1 ki point to make two unarmed strikes as a bonus action.
Patient Defense
You can spend 1 ki point to take the Dodge action as a bonus action on your turn.
Step of the Wind
You can spend 1 ki point to take the Disengage or Dash action as a bonus action on your turn, and your jump distance is doubled for the turn.
Also, beginning at 2nd level you learn advanced Ki Techniques. You can choose one Ki Technique from the list below. You gain one additional Ki Technique at levels 5, 11, and 17 from the level appropriate list. When you gain a level in this class, you can replace one Ki Technique you know for a different Ki Technique from the same list as the one you are replacing.
2nd level Ki Techniques:
Deflect Missiles (as PHB)
Twinning Strikes: When you take the Attack action and attack with a Monk weapon that you’re holding in one hand, you can use a bonus action to attack with a different Monk weapon that you’re holding in the other hand. You can also replace one of the unarmed attacks from your Flurry of Blows with an attack with the Monk weapon in the other hand.
Swift Step: When you make a melee attack against a creature, you don't provoke opportunity attacks from that creature for the rest of the turn, whether you hit or not.
5th level Ki Techniques:
Stunning Strike (same as PHB)
100 Grasping Hands: When you make a Grapple or Shove attack you can use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier for those ability checks. When you make a successful Grapple you can attempt to restrain your target. You spend 1 Ki point and the target must make a Strength saving throw or become restrained. The restrained condition lasts until the target successfully escapes the grapple, you release the grapple, or you are incapacitated.
Weapon Master: While you are wielding a monk weapon you gain a +2 bonus to your AC. When you take the Attack action you can spend 1 Ki point and make three attacks instead of two as part of your Extra Attack feature.
11th level Ki Techniques:
Diamond Soul: You gain proficiency in Wisdom and Charisma saving throws. Beginning at 14th level, your mastery of ki grants you proficiency in all saving throws.
Additionally, whenever you make a saving throw and fail, you can spend 1 ki point to reroll it and take the second result.
Ki Revitalization: As a Bonus Action you can replenish your Ki reserves. You regain a number of Ki equal to half your Monk level, rounded down. You can use this ability once per long rest.
Dragon's Hide: As a reaction you can focus your Ki to harden your skin. You gain resistance to Bludgeoning, Piercing, and Slashing damage. As part of the same reaction, you can spend 2 Ki points and also gain resistance to Acid, Cold, Fire, Lightning, and Poison damage. The resistances last for 1 minute. You can use this feature a number of times equal to your Proficiency Bonus.
17th level Ki Techniques: sorry, I hadn't got this far yet. Let me know if you have suggestions.
Empty Body (as PHB)
??
??
So let me know what you think. It's an option that expands the Ki feature at level 2 and scales giving the Monk more versatility and uniqueness from build to build. If you like Deflect Missiles, you can keep it. But if you wanted to go the two weapon fighting route you can do that instead.
I had considered leaving Stunning Strike, Diamond Soul, and Empty Body off of the lists, leaving them as is with the Ki Techniques (not tied to that name, it's more a placeholder) added on top, but wasn't sure if that would be too strong. I just have to make sure the other options are just as powerful or useful as, say, Stunning Strike, or why bother with the options.
Edit: Or Stunning Strike, Diamond Soul, and Empty Body could stay and the Ki Techniques would start at level 5 with the options.
In Tier 1 of play (levels 1-4) Monks gain several Ki abilities, then only 1 Ki ability in each of the subsequent Tiers of play. So that got me thinking that maybe we should just expand the Ki feature Monks gain at level 2 to include picking one of three abilities for each Tier, that is appropriate for that Tier of play. I don't want to go more than three options as it can make it too unwieldy and complicated. I don't have all of the options fleshed out yet. Some I had written down but left them at work and don't recall all of them. Suggestions are welcome. I just wanted to get thoughts on this idea before pursuing it further. And I also apologize if someone else has posted this idea. With some many ideas in this thread and others I hope I'm not copying it from someone else.
I think this is a good overall idea. It provides some customization to monk builds while leaving room for adaptation. If a particular Ki ability is not being used, it can get switched out. It would be nice to have something for each type of monk (archer/ranged, melee, hit-n-run, high WIS, high DEX) at each stage, but I do not know if that is possible.
I'll throw some possibilities out there.
Starting Ki abilities
Flurry of Blows (no change as it is integral for multiple subclasses)
Step of the Wind
As a bonus action, you may Disengage. You may spend 1 ki to also Dash and move along vertical surfaces and across liquids until the end of your turn.
Tier 1 selectable options
Deflect Missiles (no change)
Slow fall You can use your reaction when you fall to reduce any falling damage you take by an amount equal to five times your monk level. You can spend 1 ki to extend this ability to up to 6 creatures you can see.
Patient Defense When another creature hits you with a melee attack, you can use your reaction to add your proficiency bonus to your AC for that attack, potentially causing it to miss. You can do this after seeing the roll. If the attack misses, you may spend 1 ki to make a melee attack as part of the same reaction.
These are all reactions that reduce damage, which is very helpful in Tier 1 and round out a monk's action economy. They do not require Ki for the initial effect (important when ki is limited), but 1 Ki can be used to improve the effect. My only concern is that Deflect Missiles won't come up very often and thus be worse than the other 2. Slow Fall is good combined with wall running and aerial combat, but may be too situational. I was concerned about a counter-attack synergizing too much with a rogue multi-class sneak attack, but a counterattack is comparable to a battlemaster riposte maneuver at about the same level.
Tier 2 selectable options
It is really hard to come up with something of a comparable level to Stunning Strike. It really favors high WIS builds, but I cannot think of alternatives that work better for a DEX focus. Due to my lack of ideas, I just adapted Stunning Strike to target other saves. Targeting CON saves has such terrible odds. It would be nice to have a little effect that happens even when the target succeeds on the saving throw.
Stunning Strike (no change)
Terror Strike When you hit another creature with a melee weapon attack, you can spend 1 ki point to attempt a Terror Strike. The target must succeed on a Wisdom saving throw or be frightened of you until the end of your next turn.
Soul Strike When you hit another creature with a melee weapon attack, you can spend 1 ki point to attempt a Soul Strike. The target must succeed on a Charisma saving throw or have disadvantage on saving throws until the end of your next turn.
Silencing Strike When you hit another creature with a melee weapon attack, you can spend 1 ki point to attempt a Silencing Strike. The target must succeed on a Intelligence saving throw or be silenced until the end of your next turn. It cannot talk or perform verbal components of spells.
Thanks for your input. I did want to provide some kind of customization using some ideas from this thread and others. I added a 3rd option to both the Tier 1 and Tier 2 Ki techniques above. It is definitely difficult to find something that is on equal footing as Stunning Strike. But hopefully, if someone had a character concept in mind, they might make other choices.
Edit: also added a 3rd option for the Tier 3 options.
Honestly, I feel like the 5e Monk is in a good place except for two characteristics.
1. Attack die and number of attacks. Some people advocate for increasing by a factor of 1 (1d4 to 1d6, 1d6 to 1d8...). Because of the nature of martial arts emphasizes speed and accuracy, others also want a third attack at higher levels. You lose some balance here because of multiclass buffs (hunter's mark, hex, etc.) and more stunning strike opportunities. I would rather see an increase number of dice. Go from 1d4 to 2d4 to 3d4 to finally 4d4 to simulate the speed of a martial arts combo style attack.
2. ASI. Any MAD melee class should have more ASIs. Instead of 4, 8, 12, 16, 19 go with 4, 6, 8, 10, 12, 16, 19.
I'm not a fan of Treatmonk's fixes; most of them are about stealing from other classes, rather than building on what makes the Monk good to begin with.
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I'm not a fan of Treatmonk's fixes; most of them are about stealing from other classes, rather than building on what makes the Monk good to begin with.
That, making the monk borderline unrecognizable. At that point, just make up your own homebrew.
I'm not a fan of Treatmonk's fixes; most of them are about stealing from other classes, rather than building on what makes the Monk good to begin with.
That, making the monk borderline unrecognizable. At that point, just make up your own homebrew.
I don't think Haravikk was talking about big changes, just originality, and I must say I agree with him. That doesn't mean there is one right idea and the others are wrong, just lots of ideas and that's all, some more orginal, some more practical and some more fun. There are many different opinions that lead to creativity, and what matters is that we have fun. Although I am not against practicality.
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I'd say you still spend the ki to do it again during the action surge.
I think that's pretty awesome for Sun Soul.
But I think the addition of attacks to flurry of blows doesn't affect Mercy Monk, It replaces only one hit and even the later features doesn't specify quantity.
Yep and he only has to hit 4 different targets since the bonus action doesn't count as "flurry of blows" with 2 he has to hit 5 different and with 3 he has to hit 6 different. But still it synergizes well with that feature.
Hand of mercy I actually agree. With only 1 attack counting as "flurry of blows" you have less chances to trigger it if that attack misses.
My original fix was Flurry stayed as it was, Step of the wind became just a bonus action no ki cost. And Patient defence became 1 ki cost, but no action required. But much like ranger, Getting nothing but a subclass feature at 11 for monk is what makes it difficult for them to keep up in that tier of play if the subclass doesn't offer anything substantial. This is the real reason Drunken Master, Kensei monk and open hand monk have a bigger problem scaling into later levels compared to mercy, astral and ascendant dragon.
I was thinking about this solution to solve the ki problem. This solution reminds me of how the cultivators use their life force when they no longer have ki power.
Quickened Healing
Also at 4th level, as an action, you can spend 2 ki powers and roll a Martial Arts die.
You or one willing creature that you touch regain a number of hit points equal to the number rolled plus your proficiency bonus.
Additionally, you can do the reverse operation to recover 2 ki points. (only on yourself)
my latest version
https://www.gmbinder.com/share/-Mz734bN8gWVYvErwFpw
https://www.reddit.com//r/UnearthedArcana/comments/uj7jjp/the_monk_is_a_different_class_from_the_fighter_it/
I was wondering if it wouldn't be interesting to create a set of spell list just for the monk. These would be special attacks, a mist between martial arts and psychic / Ki powers. Basically a magic system just for monk attacks. Unfortunately I'm not convinced of this idea yet, I'm afraid it might look too much like 4e. But I think that if the magical martial arts were limited and semplifiacte could result in something interesting. I would love to know your opinion regarding this idea.
Ki Weapon
Martial Art cantrip
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Self (5-foot radius)
Components: S, M (a monk weapon or unarmed strike)
Duration: Instantaneous
Make a melee attack against one creature within 5 feet of you, and choise one damage type: acid, cold, fire, lightning, poison, or thunder.
On a hit, the target suffers the attack’s normal effects, and you can cause the element choise to leap from the target to a different creature of your choice that you can see within 5 feet of it. The second creature takes the choise elemental damagethe equal to your spellcasting ability modifier.
If you decide to use a Ki power, you can add special effects to your ki weapon attack:
1) Your attack becomes a 10 feet ranged attack, at 5th level 30 feet, at 11th level 90 feet, at 17th level 120 feet,
and all enemies that are near the affected enemy take elemental damage equal to your wisdom.
2) The adjacent enemy receives the same elemental damage as the hit enemy.
3) Instead of attacking a single enemy you can divide the damage by how many martial arts dice you are going to roll.
Each attack will result in a roll to hit and you won't be able to move and hit the same opponent, but each person hit will also receive additional damage equal to your wisdom.
4) The speed of the hit target is reduced by 10 feet until the start of your next turn, at 5th level 15 feet, at 11th level 20 feet, at 17th level 30 feet,
5) ....
At Higher Levels.
At 5th level, the melee attack deals an extra martial art die of the chosen element damage to the target on a hit.
The damage roll increase by another martial arts die at 11th level and 17th level yet another.
1-4= (Wp + dex / next + wis)
5-10= (Wp+dex +1d6 / next + wis)
11-14= (Wp+dex +2d8 / next +wis)
15-16= (Wp+dex +2d10 / next +wis)
17-18= (Wp+dex +3d10 / next +wis)
19-20= (Wp+dex +3d12 / next +wis)
I’m not a big fan of adding the spellcasting feature to monks, even 4E monks (they can cast spells but don’t have the spellcasting feature).
Your cantrip idea is interesting, and maybe a better fit as an elemental discipline for 4E. But I worry that it is a bit too complicated or too powerful. I’m not sure. having so many options turns it into the “Swiss army knife” of abilities so why take anything else when this one thing does it all. For 4E, why take Fangs of the Fire Snake when this does it better?
Some thoughts on the cantrip:
The damage to adjacent target should probably be WIsdom modifier.
Are all the options 1 Ki point? Can you choose more than one option if you spend more Ki?
1) What do you mean by “all enemies near”? Is it 5’? 10’? Should be clarified and Wisdom modifier damage.
2) Adjacent target takes same damage. Does that mean you roll once for initial target and the adjacent target takes same? Or do you roll their damage separately? Do they still take modifier damage from the initial “main” effect on top of that?
3) is a little confusing. So this is a level 5 and higher ability since that is the only time you can roll multiple die? Needs different wording for clarification.
4) Does the adjacent target that is also hit by the attack also have their speed reduced or is it only the initial target?
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
I too think that a classical system for monk spells would not work well. Although I must say that having a martial arts spell list like in dnd 4 edition might be a solution for those looking for the martial arts master. Especially for an order factor.
Someone told me that my monk variant is too forced towards a magic class, it's like it wants to be a spellcaster but doesn't have a system to be one. So I thought about simplifying a cantrip with multiple options, but as you well said it becomes too strong and adaptable. Maybe it could work for a 4 element monk variant.
Ki weapon
Martial Art cantrip
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Self (5-foot radius)
Components: S, M (a monk weapon or unarmed strike)
Duration: Instantaneous
Make a melee attack against one creature within 5 feet of you, and choise one damage type: acid, cold, fire, lightning, poison, or thunder.
On a hit, the target suffers the attack’s normal effects, and you can change the damage done in the chosen element.
At Higher Levels.
At 5th level, the melee attack deals an extra martial art die of the chosen element damage to the target on a hit.
The damage roll increase by another martial arts die at 11th level and 17th level yet another.
1-4= (Wp+dex)
5-10= (Wp+dex +1d6)
11-14= (Wp+dex +2d8)
15-16= (Wp+dex +2d10)
17-18= (Wp+dex +3d10)
19-20= (Wp+dex +3d12)
If you decide to use a Ki power, you can add special effects to your ki weapon attack:
1) Your attack becomes a 10 feet ranged attack, at 5th level 30 feet, at 11th level 90 feet, at 17th level 120 feet,
and one enemies that is within 5 feet of the affected enemy take elemental damage equal to your wisdom.
2) Instead of attacking a single enemy you can divide the damage by how many martial arts dice you are going to roll.
Each attack will result in a roll to hit and you won't be able to move and hit the same opponent, but each person hit will also receive additional damage equal to your wisdom modifier.
For example at 11th level instead of doing (Wp+dex +2d8) you can do (Wp + dex)+(1d8 +wis)+(1d8 +wis) <<similar to eldritch blast>>
3) The speed of the enemy hit is reduced by 10 feet until the start of your next turn, at 5th level 15 feet, at 11th level 20 feet, at 17th level 30 feet,
4) You can choose to hit your enemy and any enemy within 5 feet of you must pass a dexterity saving throw or take elemental damage.
at 11th level 10 feet, at 17th level 15 feet.
5) You can choose to hit your enemy and any enemy within 5 feet of you must pass a dexterity saving throw or be knocked prone.
at 5th level 10 feet, at 11th level 15 feet, at 17th level 20 feet.
The elemental energy lingers in the affected area making it a difficult terrain until the end of your next turn.
As with Xaolin Buddhist or Taoist monks being a skilled weapons user should be second nature! Especially when it comes to the typical staff... None leave the walls of their monastery on foot without a walking staff; typically eyebrow height in length is what is used during their travels asking for alms.
I've always felt that this should be considered in the D&D core rules. The use of the straight sword is also something that they excel with! Which makes me wonder why a monk can not also be a "kensai"; as the "sword saint's" skills are technically those of a monk, unless the kensai is supposed to be more along the lines of a samurai; in which case they should also be skilled with the long bow! My ideas about kensai might be better noted under that specific class posting area. I have plenty more realistic input ideas related to their use of chi and their specific skills!
Thanks in advance to anyone that reads this with an open mind!
When monks are sent
Spell casting by a monk is not the typical use of magic as experienced in the D&D world it is the use of Chi which to "normal" people might seem like magic as the average person has no experience with using Chi in their lives on a normal basis.
Monks having magic skills makes sense to some extent but, it would have to be introduced in a realistic manner.
Ki or Kai is a mispronunciation based upon the pin yin spelling: Qi for Chi
Or it could be the Japanese word for it, which is "ki."
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
I may not have explained myself well. By the system of spells I meant only the system and not the spells themselves. Imagine the same system but instead of spells there were martial arts techniques that the monk has to choose from his list and to activate them the monk has to use his ki. You could also create different schools of martial arts like the schools of magic. Like schools composed of the 4 elements, ,or animals ,or something else.
Like the monk's list of special attacks (at-will) in dnd 4 edition.
https://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Monk_Powers_(4e_Power_List)
https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/4e_Monk_Powers
https://www.enworld.org/threads/the-book-of-five-traditions-a-4e-monk-handbook.468782/ (MwaO / / #4 / Heroic Powers)
There have been a lot of good ideas in this thread. Some have been minor adjustments or additions. While others have been almost complete overhauls of the class. Who knows what direction WotC will go with the 2024 edition. Hopefully, they will see comments around these forums and take them into consideration. Although I am not holding my breath on that. But I do hope they tweak the Monk to make some improvements.
In keeping with this thread, and ideas that would be backwards compatible for 2024, I had another thought on a slight change in the core class. In the Spoiler tag below I have the Monk table with the non-Ki features separate from the features that use Ki.
pasting this from an Excel file doesn't hold the formatting and column width, so I apologize if it fits weird.
In Tier 1 of play (levels 1-4) Monks gain several Ki abilities, then only 1 Ki ability in each of the subsequent Tiers of play. So that got me thinking that maybe we should just expand the Ki feature Monks gain at level 2 to include picking one of three abilities for each Tier, that is appropriate for that Tier of play. I don't want to go more than three options as it can make it too unwieldy and complicated. I don't have all of the options fleshed out yet. Some I had written down but left them at work and don't recall all of them. Suggestions are welcome. I just wanted to get thoughts on this idea before pursuing it further. And I also apologize if someone else has posted this idea. With some many ideas in this thread and others I hope I'm not copying it from someone else.
Ki (revised 2nd-level Monk Feature)
Ki
Starting at 2nd level, your training allows you to harness the mystic energy of ki. Your access to this energy is represented by a number of ki points. Your monk level determines the number of points you have, as shown in the Ki Points column of the Monk table.
You can spend these points to fuel various ki features. You start knowing
threefour such features: Flurry of Blows, Patient Defense, Step of the Wind and one Ki Technique listed below. You learn more ki features as you gain levels in this class.When you spend a ki point, it is unavailable until you finish a short or long rest, at the end of which you draw all of your expended ki back into yourself. You must spend at least 30 minutes of the rest meditating to regain your ki points.
Some of your ki features require your target to make a saving throw to resist the feature’s effects. The saving throw DC is calculated as follows:
Ki save DC = 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Wisdom modifier
Flurry of Blows
Immediately after you take the Attack action on your turn, you can spend 1 ki point to make two unarmed strikes as a bonus action.
Patient Defense
You can spend 1 ki point to take the Dodge action as a bonus action on your turn.
Step of the Wind
You can spend 1 ki point to take the Disengage or Dash action as a bonus action on your turn, and your jump distance is doubled for the turn.
Also, beginning at 2nd level you learn advanced Ki Techniques. You can choose one Ki Technique from the list below. You gain one additional Ki Technique at levels 5, 11, and 17 from the level appropriate list. When you gain a level in this class, you can replace one Ki Technique you know for a different Ki Technique from the same list as the one you are replacing.
2nd level Ki Techniques:
5th level Ki Techniques:
11th level Ki Techniques:
Additionally, whenever you make a saving throw and fail, you can spend 1 ki point to reroll it and take the second result.
17th level Ki Techniques: sorry, I hadn't got this far yet. Let me know if you have suggestions.
So let me know what you think. It's an option that expands the Ki feature at level 2 and scales giving the Monk more versatility and uniqueness from build to build. If you like Deflect Missiles, you can keep it. But if you wanted to go the two weapon fighting route you can do that instead.
I had considered leaving Stunning Strike, Diamond Soul, and Empty Body off of the lists, leaving them as is with the Ki Techniques (not tied to that name, it's more a placeholder) added on top, but wasn't sure if that would be too strong. I just have to make sure the other options are just as powerful or useful as, say, Stunning Strike, or why bother with the options.
Edit: Or Stunning Strike, Diamond Soul, and Empty Body could stay and the Ki Techniques would start at level 5 with the options.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
I think this is a good overall idea. It provides some customization to monk builds while leaving room for adaptation. If a particular Ki ability is not being used, it can get switched out. It would be nice to have something for each type of monk (archer/ranged, melee, hit-n-run, high WIS, high DEX) at each stage, but I do not know if that is possible.
I'll throw some possibilities out there.
Starting Ki abilities
Flurry of Blows (no change as it is integral for multiple subclasses)
Step of the Wind
As a bonus action, you may Disengage. You may spend 1 ki to also Dash and move along vertical surfaces and across liquids until the end of your turn.
Tier 1 selectable options
Deflect Missiles (no change)
Slow fall You can use your reaction when you fall to reduce any falling damage you take by an amount equal to five times your monk level. You can spend 1 ki to extend this ability to up to 6 creatures you can see.
Patient Defense When another creature hits you with a melee attack, you can use your reaction to add your proficiency bonus to your AC for that attack, potentially causing it to miss. You can do this after seeing the roll. If the attack misses, you may spend 1 ki to make a melee attack as part of the same reaction.
These are all reactions that reduce damage, which is very helpful in Tier 1 and round out a monk's action economy. They do not require Ki for the initial effect (important when ki is limited), but 1 Ki can be used to improve the effect. My only concern is that Deflect Missiles won't come up very often and thus be worse than the other 2. Slow Fall is good combined with wall running and aerial combat, but may be too situational. I was concerned about a counter-attack synergizing too much with a rogue multi-class sneak attack, but a counterattack is comparable to a battlemaster riposte maneuver at about the same level.
Tier 2 selectable options
It is really hard to come up with something of a comparable level to Stunning Strike. It really favors high WIS builds, but I cannot think of alternatives that work better for a DEX focus. Due to my lack of ideas, I just adapted Stunning Strike to target other saves. Targeting CON saves has such terrible odds. It would be nice to have a little effect that happens even when the target succeeds on the saving throw.
Stunning Strike (no change)
Terror Strike When you hit another creature with a melee weapon attack, you can spend 1 ki point to attempt a Terror Strike. The target must succeed on a Wisdom saving throw or be frightened of you until the end of your next turn.
Soul Strike When you hit another creature with a melee weapon attack, you can spend 1 ki point to attempt a Soul Strike. The target must succeed on a Charisma saving throw or have disadvantage on saving throws until the end of your next turn.
Silencing Strike When you hit another creature with a melee weapon attack, you can spend 1 ki point to attempt a Silencing Strike. The target must succeed on a Intelligence saving throw or be silenced until the end of your next turn. It cannot talk or perform verbal components of spells.
I am not even going to attempt Tier 3 and 4.
Thanks for your input. I did want to provide some kind of customization using some ideas from this thread and others. I added a 3rd option to both the Tier 1 and Tier 2 Ki techniques above. It is definitely difficult to find something that is on equal footing as Stunning Strike. But hopefully, if someone had a character concept in mind, they might make other choices.
Edit: also added a 3rd option for the Tier 3 options.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
Honestly, I feel like the 5e Monk is in a good place except for two characteristics.
1. Attack die and number of attacks. Some people advocate for increasing by a factor of 1 (1d4 to 1d6, 1d6 to 1d8...). Because of the nature of martial arts emphasizes speed and accuracy, others also want a third attack at higher levels. You lose some balance here because of multiclass buffs (hunter's mark, hex, etc.) and more stunning strike opportunities. I would rather see an increase number of dice. Go from 1d4 to 2d4 to 3d4 to finally 4d4 to simulate the speed of a martial arts combo style attack.
2. ASI. Any MAD melee class should have more ASIs. Instead of 4, 8, 12, 16, 19 go with 4, 6, 8, 10, 12, 16, 19.
I'm not a fan of Treatmonk's fixes; most of them are about stealing from other classes, rather than building on what makes the Monk good to begin with.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
That, making the monk borderline unrecognizable. At that point, just make up your own homebrew.
I don't think Haravikk was talking about big changes, just originality, and I must say I agree with him. That doesn't mean there is one right idea and the others are wrong, just lots of ideas and that's all, some more orginal, some more practical and some more fun. There are many different opinions that lead to creativity, and what matters is that we have fun. Although I am not against practicality.