Here I want to explain what I think of the monk. The monk is one of my favorite characters. I just find that at low levels (from 1st to 4th) the monk is a little weak character if not human.
There are ability that I almost never used, such as "Patient Defense" and "Step of the Wind". With this I do not mean that they are useless, but at low level they are too expensive and at high levels they could be useful but not so much since there are feats and ability that solve the problem in a cheaper way.
After solving the problem of the opportunity attacks with the feat "Mobile" or "Crusher", the monk is definitely one of the strongest classes in the game.
A new problem arises at higher levels (from 11th level onwards). The monk loses his advantage to the point that it becomes just player who stuns enemies so that your allies slaughter them. Even with the increased of the ki pool, this doesn't help if it can't be used effectively. One solution is to evolve " flurry of blows". For example: At 11th level the monk when using "flurry of blows" can decide to use 2 ki points to make 3 attacks and at 17th level 3 ki points to make 4 unarmed attacks as a bonus action. This is simply a proposal, by this I do not mean that the monk class is to be changed.
Now I would like to talk about the identity or uniqueness of the monk in the game (from my point of view):
The monk for me is at the base a master of martial arts and one of the subclsses that struck me most is definitely "way of the open hand". This is because it gives a good image of a master of martial arts and above all reveals a possible uniqueness in the fighting style of the monk, that is a combatant who imposes saving throws to the opponent, and not with magic, but with his martial arts causing negative conditions to his enemies. As a base we have the classic saving throw of the stun attack that touches the constitution, then we have the 3 famous techniques of the style "open hand" that impose saving throws on strength and dexterity. From my point of view the monk should not stop only at these 3 types of saving throws.
Another interesting thing about the monk is his ability to use his reaction for the skills "Deflect Missiles" and "Slow Fall". This makes us realize that a martial arts master can use his reaction more effectively and should become a quality of the monk. Unfortunately, "Deflect Missiles", "Slow Fall", " opportunity attacks" are skills that are rarely used unless the master specifically wants them. So I remind all masters that it is also your fault that people say that the monk is weak, it is also up to the master to make these poor monks shine once in a while.
From my point of view a master of martial arts should have several possibilities of reaction. More precisely, he should impose the situation to activate his reaction.
If you have any criticisms about my way of thinking, they are welcome. I want to point out that this is a personal interpretation and I'm sure a lot of people think differently from me. I'd like to know what you think of the monk.
WoTC is afraid of making Monks too powerful and overcompensate when they finalize a subclass for printing. Even the strongest Monk subclasses (Mercy, Shadow) fall behind other martial classes fairly early on and never catch up.
WoTC is afraid of making Monks too powerful and overcompensate when they finalize a subclass for printing. Even the strongest Monk subclasses (Mercy, Shadow) fall behind other martial classes fairly early on and never catch up.
Man, I didn't see that response coming. Thanks for writing down what you think though. So you say there is a mafia against the monk class? and for what reason?
It's worth noting I'm pretty sure Deflect Projectiles is meant as a buff to ranged monks, to make up for the fact they can't use flurry of blows they get a possible reaction attack.
At least that's my guess.
I agree though, monks early-game are fine but lack proper skirmishing abilities (hence why some subclasses like Open Hand are really good), however later on they fall behind in damage due to a overreliance on Stunning Strike.
It's worth noting I'm pretty sure Deflect Projectiles is meant as a buff to ranged monks, to make up for the fact they can't use flurry of blows they get a possible reaction attack.
At least that's my guess.
I agree though, monks early-game are fine but lack proper skirmishing abilities (hence why some subclasses like Open Hand are really good), however later on they fall behind in damage due to a overreliance on Stunning Strike.
"Deflect Projectiles" as a replacement for the " flurry of blows" for monks fighting at a distance.... Interesting, I never thought of that. Too bad it's a bit of a half-hearted attempt when viewed this way. But you could create a homebrew based on this concept. Just try to get this technique used more often.
I've always seen "Deflect Projectiles" as the perfect shield against archers. Since the monk is a character who moves often and fast (when he can) the only ones who can hit him are spellcasters and archers. "Deflect Projectiles" is a nice technique, but practically almost invisible. The only time I've used it is because the master didn't know about this ability. From then on I just got spells. "Slow Fall" is another beautiful monk ability, but almost invisible. The problem with these abilities is that they are heavily tied to the master's ability to provide opportunities to use them, while what really happens is the opposite.
The monk is built copying techniques from the old edition of D&D. I must also add that in 3e- 3.5e the monk lacked a real role in the game and this is also reflected in 5th edition. Almost and I say ALMOST, I miss the monk of 4e, even though it was a messed up edition to say the least, the monk like the spells had his different combat techniques. Not everything they proposed in 5th edition is wrong, in fact I find the simplicity of this edition wonderful (especially after 4e).
All the reasoning I did, of how I see the monk, is simply a way to find a new innovative and balanced game mechanic for the monk. If I propose these themes maybe they will be seen and in the next edition we will see a more innovative kind of reasoning.
Monks are not meant to deal the same damage as other martial classes but that doesn't mean they are under powered. The signature features of a monk are stunning strike and diamond soul. Diamond soul makes thenm very resistant to spellcasters stunning strike makes them good at de-buffing enemies.
Some of the most powerful wizards do very little damage instead they control the battlefield by de-buffing the enemies (and buffing the players). If a monk does and average of 5 points per round less damage than a fighter but due to stunning strike means the rest of the party does and average of 10 points per more damage which is the more powerful character?
How useful deflect missiles is very much down to the DM. If the DM creates a world where everyone (or at least every combatant) has a class and studies the strength and weaknesses of all classes (and probably subclasses) then yes the enmy see a guy without armour who is obviously not a barb or spellcaster then they won't shoot arrows at him but if monks are rare and their skills little know an archer is likely to make his first shoat the unarmored guy and only change tacticts when he sees deflect missiles in action.
Monks are not meant to deal the same damage as other martial classes but that doesn't mean they are under powered. The signature features of a monk are stunning strike and diamond soul. Diamond soul makes thenm very resistant to spellcasters stunning strike makes them good at de-buffing enemies.
Some of the most powerful wizards do very little damage instead they control the battlefield by de-buffing the enemies (and buffing the players). If a monk does and average of 5 points per round less damage than a fighter but due to stunning strike means the rest of the party does and average of 10 points per more damage which is the more powerful character?
How useful deflect missiles is very much down to the DM. If the DM creates a world where everyone (or at least every combatant) has a class and studies the strength and weaknesses of all classes (and probably subclasses) then yes the enmy see a guy without armour who is obviously not a barb or spellcaster then they won't shoot arrows at him but if monks are rare and their skills little know an archer is likely to make his first shoat the unarmored guy and only change tacticts when he sees deflect missiles in action.
It's fine with me if you feel that way, but it seems a little sad thinking about all those abilities the other classes can have while the monk just becomes support. The game is made to entertain and it seems to me that the monk serves only as a stun gun that only affects the constitution as a saving throw and that probably 7 times out of 10 does not work ... Sad.
Hope this is okay to ask and doesn't derail the discussion. I'm a relatively new player and I'm in a campaign for the frist time with someone playing a monk, and even though I would like to, I don't fully understand the Monk class, what's awesome about playing a monk and how to play cooroprately/synerginitcally with a monk. I sort of get the impression that they are quick, versitle and can make a lot of attacks per turn (based on above information, have some resistance to magic/spells) , but I think I'm missing the essence and why they are cool and awesome: cool and awesome to have in the party and cool and awesome to play.
Can somone who really likes playing a monk help me out a little?
WoTC is afraid of making Monks too powerful and overcompensate when they finalize a subclass for printing. Even the strongest Monk subclasses (Mercy, Shadow) fall behind other martial classes fairly early on and never catch up.
There is another thread Here talking about why Dragonborn don’t have darkvision and I think the reasoning for that and WotC approach to monk are linked. Monks have a ton of abilities, many strong ones mentioned in previous posts, so WotC plays down their martial prowess, I think.
Hope this is okay to ask and doesn't derail the discussion. I'm a relatively new player and I'm in a campaign for the frist time with someone playing a monk, and even though I would like to, I don't fully understand the Monk class, what's awesome about playing a monk and how to play cooroprately/synerginitcally with a monk. I sort of get the impression that they are quick, versitle and can make a lot of attacks per turn (based on above information, have some resistance to magic/spells) , but I think I'm missing the essence and why they are cool and awesome: cool and awesome to have in the party and cool and awesome to play.
Can somone who really likes playing a monk help me out a little?
Monks are a nice class because of the image they give, an independent class that does not need to worship any deities, that does not need armor or weapons. Even stripped of all having, it is a fearsome class. This sense of independence to the image of the martial arts master and its quickness have long enchanted players.
The monk is a neutral element who can do a little bit of everything, though not as well as specialized classes. His movement allows him to attack spellcasters and archers with speed. To increase his efficacy the best feat one can take is "mobile." From 5th level the monk becomes especially dangerous with one of the most insidious attacks in the game "the stunning strike." One of the monk's most useful abilities at group level. They are very strong from 5th level until 11th level, from there is no real progression.
The monk has no magic resistance, but at 14th level he receives proficiency on all saving throws, which could be interpreted as good magic defense, although so many say it is late and the paladin is much more useful in this context with his Aura.
The monk cannot be optimized like other classes, this is due to the talents that play more in favor for other classes. And therefore not recommended if other players know how to optimize their class, this would only disadvantage the monk. On the other hand, if played with a group of medium power, without trying too hard to look for who is the strongest, the monk can be played without problems.
From 5th level the monk becomes especially dangerous with one of the most insidious attacks in the game "the stunning strike." One of the monk's most useful abilities at group level. They are very strong from 5th level until 11th level . . . ..
Okay, the Monk in our party hasn't gotten to level 5 yet. ( I think the Monk has done some cool things before 5th level) I guess that is when Monks kinda come into their own. I just read up on stunning strike; I guess it would be good to pay attention to if the monk uses it and then if the target fails its save . . and if that happens, to make sure and appreciate and take advantage of that opportunity. Stunning strike seems pretty cool! Maybe Monks are kinda late bloomers. I guess also the monk seems more likely to set another player up to deliver the death blow, than to deliver the death blow, directly, themselves. I guess people who play monks must have a certain level of acceptace of that fact and feel good about their roll in that accomplishment, for the party (so maybe the monk is not the best class for the glory hound).
From 5th level the monk becomes especially dangerous with one of the most insidious attacks in the game "the stunning strike." One of the monk's most useful abilities at group level. They are very strong from 5th level until 11th level . . . ..
Okay, the Monk in our party hasn't gotten to level 5 yet. ( I think the Monk has done some cool things before 5th level) I guess that is when Monks kinda come into their own. I just read up on stunning strike; I guess it would be good to pay attention to if the monk uses it and then if the target fails its save . . and if that happens, to make sure and appreciate and take advantage of that opportunity. Stunning strike seems pretty cool! Maybe Monks are kinda late bloomers. I guess also the monk seems more likely to set another player up to deliver the death blow, than to deliver the death blow, directly, themselves. I guess people who play monks must have a certain level of acceptace of that fact and feel good about their roll in that accomplishment, for the party (so maybe the monk is not the best class for the glory hound).
Early on, monks are fairly powerful. They can make 3 attacks in one turn via flurry of blows, pre-5th level, and 4 attacks on a turn with flurry of blows at 5th level and higher. 3 attacks without spending Ki at 5th level. So they are out attacking the other martial classes until Fighters get their 3rd attack at 11th level. But the higher a monk goes, their damage output slows down because many of the good combat feats aren't best used on monks, where they can shine on other martials, imo.
Many players rely on Stunning Strike because it is so powerful, but it is limited on the monks Ki points and how often the party gets short rests for Ki to replenish. And as it has been said, Stunning Strike, is more a buff for the party than the monk, unless they can get it to take on the very first hit.
What kind of character (class/subclass) are you playing? It might help us give advice on how to synergize well with the monk. And what subclass is the monk?
If a monk does and average of 5 points per round less damage than a fighter but due to stunning strike means the rest of the party does and average of 10 points per more damage which is the more powerful character
That's a very compelling point! I hope it's also fun for the person playing the monk, even though, often they might not make the final death blow (even if they created the situation for it)
Monks are a nice class because of the image they give, an independent class that does not need to worship any deities, that does not need armor or weapons. Even stripped of all having, it is a fearsome class. This sense of independence to the image of the martial arts master and its quickness have long enchanted players.
Maybe the reality of the Monk doesn't match up with my preexisting expectation. I like your point about not needing external things like a deity or weapons. But then it seems like at least at lower levels, Monks do use weapon for at least some of their attacks and seem to do more damage with than without, for the attacks that they use them. I guess I thought the reason a monk might be fun would be using your body as the weapon, but it doesn't seem that simple. I guess getting to make a more attacks per turn usually equals more fun. The ability to move around faster than most other creature seems neat, and useful, (and probably fun for the player) and it has come in really handy to have a character who can do that.
In someways, is part of what a Monk does, similar to what a spellcaster can do with buff and debuff, just not using spells?
I am starting to see the monk as being BOTH overpowered and underpowered, simotaniouly, hmmm. I guess it's very fortunate to have one in the party
I play an Open Hand Air Genasi Monk in our campaign and we are currently level 13, about to hit (Angelic Chorus) 14 where I become proficient in all saves and can reroll a fail. Since about level 11, I have been damage mitigation, control, moderate damage, situation setter also. With Unarmored Defense I have 18 AC and I have items granting another 3. I have a set of bracers (Homebrewed by our DM) that I can Haste myself with for 4 rounds, and when it ends, instead of losing a round, I suffer a level of exhaustion immediately. So, for 4 rounds, I can strike a foe 5 times per round, have an AC of 23 and advantage on Dex saves if required. Tactics lately have been to join the Fighter in the middle of everything, usually flanking someone with him, and use Patient Defense for at least one round (I look easy to hit, but 23 AC at disadvantage isn't a joke) Every swipe at me (that misses) is damage not taken by our side and an attack wasted by theirs.
Stunning strike if it looks feasible (17DC) so BIG foes I often skip it on. FoB however, I can call for a Dex check or knock you on your butt. Prone gives Advantage to the Fighter and Pal-Lock and I can also say another one doesn't get a reaction (which I used for our Cleric once) Run up for the FoB, steal his reaction, Cleric can run away on her turn without worrying about OA.
Other Monk skills you might get use of, I ran along a wall to bypass a pressure plate to get to the disarming mechanism. Jumped down a high ledge to recover something we saw there. Fighter just hauled me back up on a rope. I've had, over the run, a few dozen "missiles" fired at me. Our DM doesn't meta, so a lot of foes don't "know" I will catch them and possibly return them with force. The Genasi perks (Legacy) are nice too. Unending Breath allowed me to explore a flooded temple and revive a Goddess. Levitate let me get up to where the Dragon was hovering, surprising him. (Surprised us ALL when a half-hearted "Yeah, I'll try a Stunning Strike" earned a nat 1 save.)
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I play mostly shadow monks and find them to be pretty fun and good, although I usually combine it with a full caster dip (shadow sorcerer or wizard)
I think patient defense is awesome, especially at low levels, and I think flurry of blows is largely a waste of ki though. Stunning strike is awesome and it really is why the class lacks a lot of other abilities, because this is so powerful when it lands.
The spells that a shadow monk get make them awesome at fighting spell casters, both darkness and silence can really screw up enemy casters.
It's fun, different, and versatile, and it really only needs 2 uncommon magic items to keep up in dmg with other materials.
Also what makes ppl think that they are weak compared to others' martial is the great number of feats and magic items that fit the others but in the base, the monk is up there in fun.
For me, I would love to see a subclass that is based on Wuxia Cultivators, the base is already there with ki and progression of the body and soul.
I think that the only levels in which the monk can be considered better at something (or at least the level) than other classes, is before level 5. What I do agree with is that the best monk is starting from the vuman since there are some feats that are very good for him like Fighting Initiate (unarmed).
I think that the only levels in which the monk can be considered better at something (or at least the level) than other classes, is before level 5. What I do agree with is that the best monk is starting from the vuman since there are some feats that are very good for him like Fighting Initiate (unarmed).
I think feats like mobile or crusher would be better options than fighting initiate (unarmed). That feat is ok for subclasses that rely on unarmed strikes like Astral Self or Mercy. Most others are only down a point or two of damage on average if they are using weapons like quarterstaff or spear until level 11. If your campaign isn’t going to 11 or higher, or you are going to be one of the main damage dealers in the party, it would be ok to take. But I think I still would take something else first
Unlike many classes I do not think vhuman / custom linage is always the best option for monk race. The bugbears reach is as good as any feat for a monk, the biggest issue with monks is they are skirmishers, not tanks but to attack and run without an op attack requires a bonus action and a ki. Mobile and goblin provide alternative solutions and none is perfect but I think long limbed is best.
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Hello everyone.
Here I want to explain what I think of the monk. The monk is one of my favorite characters. I just find that at low levels (from 1st to 4th) the monk is a little weak character if not human.
There are ability that I almost never used, such as "Patient Defense" and "Step of the Wind". With this I do not mean that they are useless, but at low level they are too expensive and at high levels they could be useful but not so much since there are feats and ability that solve the problem in a cheaper way.
After solving the problem of the opportunity attacks with the feat "Mobile" or "Crusher", the monk is definitely one of the strongest classes in the game.
A new problem arises at higher levels (from 11th level onwards). The monk loses his advantage to the point that it becomes just player who stuns enemies so that your allies slaughter them. Even with the increased of the ki pool, this doesn't help if it can't be used effectively. One solution is to evolve " flurry of blows". For example: At 11th level the monk when using "flurry of blows" can decide to use 2 ki points to make 3 attacks and at 17th level 3 ki points to make 4 unarmed attacks as a bonus action. This is simply a proposal, by this I do not mean that the monk class is to be changed.
Now I would like to talk about the identity or uniqueness of the monk in the game (from my point of view):
The monk for me is at the base a master of martial arts and one of the subclsses that struck me most is definitely "way of the open hand". This is because it gives a good image of a master of martial arts and above all reveals a possible uniqueness in the fighting style of the monk, that is a combatant who imposes saving throws to the opponent, and not with magic, but with his martial arts causing negative conditions to his enemies. As a base we have the classic saving throw of the stun attack that touches the constitution, then we have the 3 famous techniques of the style "open hand" that impose saving throws on strength and dexterity. From my point of view the monk should not stop only at these 3 types of saving throws.
Another interesting thing about the monk is his ability to use his reaction for the skills "Deflect Missiles" and "Slow Fall". This makes us realize that a martial arts master can use his reaction more effectively and should become a quality of the monk. Unfortunately, "Deflect Missiles", "Slow Fall", " opportunity attacks" are skills that are rarely used unless the master specifically wants them. So I remind all masters that it is also your fault that people say that the monk is weak, it is also up to the master to make these poor monks shine once in a while.
From my point of view a master of martial arts should have several possibilities of reaction. More precisely, he should impose the situation to activate his reaction.
If you have any criticisms about my way of thinking, they are welcome. I want to point out that this is a personal interpretation and I'm sure a lot of people think differently from me. I'd like to know what you think of the monk.
WoTC is afraid of making Monks too powerful and overcompensate when they finalize a subclass for printing. Even the strongest Monk subclasses (Mercy, Shadow) fall behind other martial classes fairly early on and never catch up.
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Man, I didn't see that response coming. Thanks for writing down what you think though. So you say there is a mafia against the monk class? and for what reason?
It's worth noting I'm pretty sure Deflect Projectiles is meant as a buff to ranged monks, to make up for the fact they can't use flurry of blows they get a possible reaction attack.
At least that's my guess.
I agree though, monks early-game are fine but lack proper skirmishing abilities (hence why some subclasses like Open Hand are really good), however later on they fall behind in damage due to a overreliance on Stunning Strike.
if I edit a message, most of the time it's because of grammar. The rest of the time I'll put "Edit:" at the bottom.
"Deflect Projectiles" as a replacement for the " flurry of blows" for monks fighting at a distance.... Interesting, I never thought of that. Too bad it's a bit of a half-hearted attempt when viewed this way. But you could create a homebrew based on this concept. Just try to get this technique used more often.
I've always seen "Deflect Projectiles" as the perfect shield against archers. Since the monk is a character who moves often and fast (when he can) the only ones who can hit him are spellcasters and archers. "Deflect Projectiles" is a nice technique, but practically almost invisible. The only time I've used it is because the master didn't know about this ability. From then on I just got spells. "Slow Fall" is another beautiful monk ability, but almost invisible. The problem with these abilities is that they are heavily tied to the master's ability to provide opportunities to use them, while what really happens is the opposite.
The monk is built copying techniques from the old edition of D&D. I must also add that in 3e- 3.5e the monk lacked a real role in the game and this is also reflected in 5th edition. Almost and I say ALMOST, I miss the monk of 4e, even though it was a messed up edition to say the least, the monk like the spells had his different combat techniques. Not everything they proposed in 5th edition is wrong, in fact I find the simplicity of this edition wonderful (especially after 4e).
All the reasoning I did, of how I see the monk, is simply a way to find a new innovative and balanced game mechanic for the monk. If I propose these themes maybe they will be seen and in the next edition we will see a more innovative kind of reasoning.
I recently created a subclass based on my view of the monk in the game (https://www.dndbeyond.com/subclasses/1150025-way-of-the-grand-master). I'm sure it's not balanced and that's why I'm asking for advice to improve it (https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/dungeons-dragons-discussion/homebrew-house-rules/130991-help-me-develop-a-monk-way-of-the-grand-master).
Monks are not meant to deal the same damage as other martial classes but that doesn't mean they are under powered. The signature features of a monk are stunning strike and diamond soul. Diamond soul makes thenm very resistant to spellcasters stunning strike makes them good at de-buffing enemies.
Some of the most powerful wizards do very little damage instead they control the battlefield by de-buffing the enemies (and buffing the players). If a monk does and average of 5 points per round less damage than a fighter but due to stunning strike means the rest of the party does and average of 10 points per more damage which is the more powerful character?
How useful deflect missiles is very much down to the DM. If the DM creates a world where everyone (or at least every combatant) has a class and studies the strength and weaknesses of all classes (and probably subclasses) then yes the enmy see a guy without armour who is obviously not a barb or spellcaster then they won't shoot arrows at him but if monks are rare and their skills little know an archer is likely to make his first shoat the unarmored guy and only change tacticts when he sees deflect missiles in action.
It's fine with me if you feel that way, but it seems a little sad thinking about all those abilities the other classes can have while the monk just becomes support. The game is made to entertain and it seems to me that the monk serves only as a stun gun that only affects the constitution as a saving throw and that probably 7 times out of 10 does not work ... Sad.
Hope this is okay to ask and doesn't derail the discussion. I'm a relatively new player and I'm in a campaign for the frist time with someone playing a monk, and even though I would like to, I don't fully understand the Monk class, what's awesome about playing a monk and how to play cooroprately/synerginitcally with a monk. I sort of get the impression that they are quick, versitle and can make a lot of attacks per turn (based on above information, have some resistance to magic/spells) , but I think I'm missing the essence and why they are cool and awesome: cool and awesome to have in the party and cool and awesome to play.
Can somone who really likes playing a monk help me out a little?
There is another thread Here talking about why Dragonborn don’t have darkvision and I think the reasoning for that and WotC approach to monk are linked. Monks have a ton of abilities, many strong ones mentioned in previous posts, so WotC plays down their martial prowess, I think.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
Monks are a nice class because of the image they give, an independent class that does not need to worship any deities, that does not need armor or weapons. Even stripped of all having, it is a fearsome class. This sense of independence to the image of the martial arts master and its quickness have long enchanted players.
The monk is a neutral element who can do a little bit of everything, though not as well as specialized classes. His movement allows him to attack spellcasters and archers with speed. To increase his efficacy the best feat one can take is "mobile." From 5th level the monk becomes especially dangerous with one of the most insidious attacks in the game "the stunning strike." One of the monk's most useful abilities at group level. They are very strong from 5th level until 11th level, from there is no real progression.
The monk has no magic resistance, but at 14th level he receives proficiency on all saving throws, which could be interpreted as good magic defense, although so many say it is late and the paladin is much more useful in this context with his Aura.
The monk cannot be optimized like other classes, this is due to the talents that play more in favor for other classes. And therefore not recommended if other players know how to optimize their class, this would only disadvantage the monk. On the other hand, if played with a group of medium power, without trying too hard to look for who is the strongest, the monk can be played without problems.
Okay, the Monk in our party hasn't gotten to level 5 yet. ( I think the Monk has done some cool things before 5th level) I guess that is when Monks kinda come into their own. I just read up on stunning strike; I guess it would be good to pay attention to if the monk uses it and then if the target fails its save . . and if that happens, to make sure and appreciate and take advantage of that opportunity. Stunning strike seems pretty cool! Maybe Monks are kinda late bloomers. I guess also the monk seems more likely to set another player up to deliver the death blow, than to deliver the death blow, directly, themselves. I guess people who play monks must have a certain level of acceptace of that fact and feel good about their roll in that accomplishment, for the party (so maybe the monk is not the best class for the glory hound).
Early on, monks are fairly powerful. They can make 3 attacks in one turn via flurry of blows, pre-5th level, and 4 attacks on a turn with flurry of blows at 5th level and higher. 3 attacks without spending Ki at 5th level. So they are out attacking the other martial classes until Fighters get their 3rd attack at 11th level. But the higher a monk goes, their damage output slows down because many of the good combat feats aren't best used on monks, where they can shine on other martials, imo.
Many players rely on Stunning Strike because it is so powerful, but it is limited on the monks Ki points and how often the party gets short rests for Ki to replenish. And as it has been said, Stunning Strike, is more a buff for the party than the monk, unless they can get it to take on the very first hit.
What kind of character (class/subclass) are you playing? It might help us give advice on how to synergize well with the monk. And what subclass is the monk?
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
That's a very compelling point! I hope it's also fun for the person playing the monk, even though, often they might not make the final death blow (even if they created the situation for it)
Maybe the reality of the Monk doesn't match up with my preexisting expectation. I like your point about not needing external things like a deity or weapons. But then it seems like at least at lower levels, Monks do use weapon for at least some of their attacks and seem to do more damage with than without, for the attacks that they use them. I guess I thought the reason a monk might be fun would be using your body as the weapon, but it doesn't seem that simple. I guess getting to make a more attacks per turn usually equals more fun. The ability to move around faster than most other creature seems neat, and useful, (and probably fun for the player) and it has come in really handy to have a character who can do that.
In someways, is part of what a Monk does, similar to what a spellcaster can do with buff and debuff, just not using spells?
I am starting to see the monk as being BOTH overpowered and underpowered, simotaniouly, hmmm. I guess it's very fortunate to have one in the party
I play an Open Hand Air Genasi Monk in our campaign and we are currently level 13, about to hit (Angelic Chorus) 14 where I become proficient in all saves and can reroll a fail. Since about level 11, I have been damage mitigation, control, moderate damage, situation setter also. With Unarmored Defense I have 18 AC and I have items granting another 3. I have a set of bracers (Homebrewed by our DM) that I can Haste myself with for 4 rounds, and when it ends, instead of losing a round, I suffer a level of exhaustion immediately. So, for 4 rounds, I can strike a foe 5 times per round, have an AC of 23 and advantage on Dex saves if required. Tactics lately have been to join the Fighter in the middle of everything, usually flanking someone with him, and use Patient Defense for at least one round (I look easy to hit, but 23 AC at disadvantage isn't a joke) Every swipe at me (that misses) is damage not taken by our side and an attack wasted by theirs.
Stunning strike if it looks feasible (17DC) so BIG foes I often skip it on. FoB however, I can call for a Dex check or knock you on your butt. Prone gives Advantage to the Fighter and Pal-Lock and I can also say another one doesn't get a reaction (which I used for our Cleric once) Run up for the FoB, steal his reaction, Cleric can run away on her turn without worrying about OA.
Other Monk skills you might get use of, I ran along a wall to bypass a pressure plate to get to the disarming mechanism. Jumped down a high ledge to recover something we saw there. Fighter just hauled me back up on a rope. I've had, over the run, a few dozen "missiles" fired at me. Our DM doesn't meta, so a lot of foes don't "know" I will catch them and possibly return them with force. The Genasi perks (Legacy) are nice too. Unending Breath allowed me to explore a flooded temple and revive a Goddess. Levitate let me get up to where the Dragon was hovering, surprising him. (Surprised us ALL when a half-hearted "Yeah, I'll try a Stunning Strike" earned a nat 1 save.)
Talk to your Players. Talk to your DM. If more people used this advice, there would be 24.74% fewer threads on Tactics, Rules and DM discussions.
I play mostly shadow monks and find them to be pretty fun and good, although I usually combine it with a full caster dip (shadow sorcerer or wizard)
I think patient defense is awesome, especially at low levels, and I think flurry of blows is largely a waste of ki though. Stunning strike is awesome and it really is why the class lacks a lot of other abilities, because this is so powerful when it lands.
The spells that a shadow monk get make them awesome at fighting spell casters, both darkness and silence can really screw up enemy casters.
I think the class is just right in balance.
It's fun, different, and versatile, and it really only needs 2 uncommon magic items to keep up in dmg with other materials.
Also what makes ppl think that they are weak compared to others' martial is the great number of feats and magic items that fit the others but in the base, the monk is up there in fun.
For me, I would love to see a subclass that is based on Wuxia Cultivators, the base is already there with ki and progression of the body and soul.
I think that the only levels in which the monk can be considered better at something (or at least the level) than other classes, is before level 5.
What I do agree with is that the best monk is starting from the vuman since there are some feats that are very good for him like Fighting Initiate (unarmed).
I think feats like mobile or crusher would be better options than fighting initiate (unarmed). That feat is ok for subclasses that rely on unarmed strikes like Astral Self or Mercy. Most others are only down a point or two of damage on average if they are using weapons like quarterstaff or spear until level 11. If your campaign isn’t going to 11 or higher, or you are going to be one of the main damage dealers in the party, it would be ok to take. But I think I still would take something else first
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
Unlike many classes I do not think vhuman / custom linage is always the best option for monk race. The bugbears reach is as good as any feat for a monk, the biggest issue with monks is they are skirmishers, not tanks but to attack and run without an op attack requires a bonus action and a ki. Mobile and goblin provide alternative solutions and none is perfect but I think long limbed is best.