I could use a little help.So I’m thinking of running a three class combo for a campaign that goes to level 11.The end combo would be a custom lineage, half Kender for Dragonlance,Monk6/Rogue4/Fighter1.I will not be playing this character past level 11.
I’m thinking to go 1 level of rogue. 4 levels of monk. Take 1 level of fighter. 2 levels of monk. 3 more of rogue.
Plus Dragonlance rules give me Tough(1st) and Alert(4th)
This character will be a scout that sets up the rest of the party.His weapon of choice is the whip for reach.Though I will flavor it to be something more martial arty, like a rope dart, or a kyoketsu-shoge.So he will stealth or shadowport up to the baddies, smack them and run.Hopefully with the baddies chasing.Maybe he gets assassinate or stunning strike off, maybe he doesn’t.
The point is he leads the baddies back to the party who are waiting with bated breathe and held actions.
I guess I’m looking for feedback on 2 things.
First:Is that the right level progression.I’m trying to balance when I get the whip, which I need one level of fighter for. Vs Assassinate Vs Shadowport Vs ASIs.
In short:
Rogue: Sneak Attack, Expertise, Assassinate, ASI
Fighter:Whip Proficiency, Dueling Fighting Style
Monk:All the stuff, but mainly Shadowport, increased movement, and an ASI.
Second:I could increase the DPR of this build by changing Dueling Fighting Style to Thrown-Weapon Fighting Style and taking Sharpshooter.DPR would go from 28.7 to 36.8 in the initial, advantage round of combat at 11th level.And I could have a longer stand off range.
But it would mean a lower armor class because my wisdom ASI would be taken up by Sharpshooter. And not only would it mean a lower Stunning Strike Save DC, you can’t stun from range.
Any thoughts?I love theory crafting characters.So I would love a good discussion where I could learn something new!
I popped to the forum with a similar build and similar questions(rime of the frostmaiden so level 11 too).
I am custom lineage rogue 1, fighter 1(unarmed fighting style d8), monk 6 (shadow most likely) then what next is the challenge.
my first feat is mobile or lucky with aim to get crusher at 6.
challenge at level 9 is will I go rogue for cunning action, fighter for action surge or monk for evasion and if I take rogue or fighter do I go for a subclass (champion/assassin or scout). be pleased if the campaign gets that far.
DMs homebrew rules on asi every level and ki=prof+monk level have made me choose monk as it will never be as nice again.
For your build, I wouldn’t expect sharpshooter to be worth it but sounds like you have feats. Worth checking out the unarmed fighting style from fighter as this can give d8s for unarmed knocking out your need for slasher. Plan is to swap it to blind fighting at some point.
Only my opinion and my Monk is Open Hand, so primarily a skirmisher who does a little battlefield control. High Dex and proficiency in Stealth through class or background makes Monks almost as sneaky as Rogues if they want. Going straight Monk gets you your 2nd attack earlier than either proposed build. Monk speed means racing back to/past the waiting ambush should be easy enough. You want a d8 damage? Grab a quarterstaff and 2 hand attack with it. It's a Monk weapon so you still get your free Bonus Action unarmed strike or can FoB with your BA if you prefer.
I see you may be going more for theme than bang for the buck, so pick your preferred flavor. Mechanically, I think the pure Monk might serve just as well for out of combat things and better when it hits the fan so to speak. Yes, the Rogue's Expertise gives a little edge and Sneak Attack is a cool bonus to damage, but maybe take a level in Rogue after getting 6 in Monk, so your hands are magical to overcome resistance when needed (assuming no magic weapon has come your way by then)
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Talk to your Players.Talk to your DM. If more people used this advice, there would be 24.74% fewer threads on Tactics, Rules and DM discussions.
The rogue for me was more related to role in a small party where we need skills coverage. I don’t really need the sneak attack but when I need a ranged attack option at low levels it can be useful and can make the shortsword handy if I am light on ki. If we had a bigger party with a rogue or 5 people to cover skills I would likely drop rogue but keep fighter.
The d8 is for all attacks so at level 4 with fob it’s 3xd8+dex or 4d6+ 3xdex with shortsword damage vs d8 plus 2xd4+dex. At 5(and 6 for me) clearly extra attack is stronger but I straight build is weaker at levels above and below The other benefits are second wind very helpful at low level due to squishiness, switching to Blind fighting once monk dice improve which I want with my darkness spell plus once I have the extra attack , 1 fighter level gives action surge for a 6xd8+dex nova round.
The treated as magic is a big risk though as I have 2 levels where it might be expected I can hit but I can’t. I am hopeful I will have access to a magical weapon (monk or finesse) that I could use for this. Plus obviously less ki.
I popped to the forum with a similar build and similar questions(rime of the frostmaiden so level 11 too).
I am custom lineage rogue 1, fighter 1(unarmed fighting style d8), monk 6 (shadow most likely) then what next is the challenge.
my first feat is mobile or lucky with aim to get crusher at 6.
challenge at level 9 is will I go rogue for cunning action, fighter for action surge or monk for evasion and if I take rogue or fighter do I go for a subclass (champion/assassin or scout). be pleased if the campaign gets that far.
If it were me I'd go Action Surge unless your table never takes short rests or you know you're going to run into a lot of AOE dex saves. Cunning action is almost worthless if you already have mobile and Step of the Wind.
For your build, I wouldn’t expect sharpshooter to be worth it but sounds like you have feats. Worth checking out the unarmed fighting style from fighter as this can give d8s for unarmed knocking out your need for slasher. Plan is to swap it to blind fighting at some point.
Since I wrote that I decided to dump fighter and Slasher altogether. Instead take weapon master as the Custom Lineage feat. It would give me the whip from first level, even though I can't use it as a monk weapon until third level (monk 2). I thought about the unarmed fighting style, but I envision this character as someone who always stands 10 feet away because of the whip. So I'll only use unarmed strikes if the whip is useless.
I see you may be going more for theme than bang for the buck, so pick your preferred flavor. Mechanically, I think the pure Monk might serve just as well for out of combat things and better when it hits the fan so to speak. Yes, the Rogue's Expertise gives a little edge and Sneak Attack is a cool bonus to damage, but maybe take a level in Rogue after getting 6 in Monk, so your hands are magical to overcome resistance when needed (assuming no magic weapon has come your way by then)
I am going for more of a theme than a munchkin. Anyone can make a munchkin. Just go one of the YouTube channels like Treantmonk or CMCC and build what they say to build. They've already figured out most of the math. (Though the probability behind the monk class is dubious at best because they take some skill to run.) I would rather try to take something that is different and then try to optimize that.
I used to have a friend who built cars for racing but he never had a lot of money. He used to say, "You can't make a racehorse out of a pig. But with a little hard work, you can make a really fast pig." I'm trying to make a really fast pig.
The rogue for me was more related to role in a small party where we need skills coverage. I don’t really need the sneak attack but when I need a ranged attack option at low levels it can be useful and can make the shortsword handy if I am light on ki. If we had a bigger party with a rogue or 5 people to cover skills I would likely drop rogue but keep fighter.
I'm going rogue for 2 reasons. First expertise in Stealth will keep my casting of Darkness and Pass Without Trace to a minimum. Which will save on Ki.
Second, Assassinate will me Advantage will give me advantage in the first round of combat when I win initiative. And since Dragonlance gives me Alert for free, I will almost always win initiative.
The treated as magic is a big risk though as I have 2 levels where it might be expected I can hit but I can’t. I am hopeful I will have access to a magical weapon (monk or finesse) that I could use for this. Plus obviously less ki.
You will almost certainly have a magic weapon since Fighter has proficiency in all weapons and you make any weapon you're proficient in, a monk weapon. Unless your table doesn't use Tasha's optional rules.
I'd go swash over assassin. You can sneak on nearly every turn between stealth, flanking, shadowstep, and isolating single opponents.
It's kind of a wash between assassin and swashbuckler. The way I want to use this character, with a first round shadow step in to try to get surprise, swashbuckler gets a 20.3 DPR and assassin gets a 26.2 (without surprise). But then any round after that where I spend 1 Ki assassin drops to 25.3 DPR and swashbuckler goes up to 27.7. In a round where I spend no Ki, swashbuckler drops to 26.9 and assassin stays at 25.3. So assuming I spend 2 Ki in the first round and 1 in the second for stunning strike and assuming 4 round combat.
Assassin gets 102.1, Swashbuckler 101.8. three tenths of a DPR, almost no difference.
Of course if combat goes longer than 4 rounds, it favors the swashbuckler. And if I get surprise, the assassin would do much better.
I'm also assuming I win initiative. But the character will have a 20 dex and the Alert feat, so I think that's a safe assumption. If I lose initiative, the swashbuckler does better.
Swash without much charisma feels wrong for me (and I have enough ability scores that need attention). Either could fit the character as could scout but I suspect assassin would be the one.
Note:cunning action is still really useful. Bonus action dash means I can go 100ft and still stunning strike the wizard. Plus also bonus action hide is strong if I set up my darkness. It’s just the disengage I am unlikely to use(although could save ki if I am surrounded eg if I did something foolish like dash 100ft to the middle of the enemies to get the wizard on the last turn…)
If we make it that far I will make the call based on how the game develops and what role I seem to take.
Note:cunning action is still really useful. Bonus action dash means I can go 100ft and still stunning strike the wizard. Plus also bonus action hide is strong if I set up my darkness. It’s just the disengage I am unlikely to use(although could save ki if I am surrounded eg if I did something foolish like dash 100ft to the middle of the enemies to get the wizard on the last turn…)
Yeah you're right, no feat or feature is worthless. I shouldn't have said that. I get a little tunnel vision from time to time and It doesn't do much for the way I want to use my character.
That said I would still take Action Surge and Evasion over Cunning Action. You will always want another action. And Evasion comes with an extra Ki point as well.
Besides, if you dashed 100 feet to get to the wizard, go out in a blaze of glory!!
I will likely take the action surge first as it works well with my shadow monk allowing darkness cast and then advantage attacks after this plus it’s never not useful.
But if my DM has massive maps(possible in icewind dale) I may take both and delay subclass as assassin is situational(needs alert feat) and champion can likely wait(unless I find I am heavily crit fishing crusher).
My suggestion for Swash is based on many DMs not favoring surprise, whereas it is almost impossible to not get sneak damage with swash by intelligent use of movement / shadowstep and fancy footwork.
My suggestion for Swash is based on many DMs not favoring surprise, whereas it is almost impossible to not get sneak damage with swash by intelligent use of movement / shadowstep and fancy footwork.
Yeah I understood that. I did The DPR without surprise.
The reason why the Assassin outperforms the Swashbuckler in the first round is advantage. With Assassinate, Alert and a 20 Dex the Assassin will get advantage most of the time, in the first round.
I'm also not worried about Sneak Attack because I would have a melee fighter in the party and I'll just attack what she's attacking.
The upside to playing a Swashbuckler is you can use a rapier(D8) and use Fancy Footwork to get a free disengage. The Assassin has to use a whip(D4, D6 at 5th) to do something similar. That's why the Swashbuckler does more damage after the first. The Swashbuckler gets 3D8 to the Assassin's 3D6 in a round where it spends 1 Ki. And the Swashbuckler gets 2D8 + 1D6 vs the Assassin's 3D6 in a round with no Ki spent. Plus Sneak Attack of course.
But those are my thoughts on the matter. You may want to run the character completely differently.
Unfortunately, this campaign got canceled so I probably won't play this character anyway.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
I could use a little help. So I’m thinking of running a three class combo for a campaign that goes to level 11. The end combo would be a custom lineage, half Kender for Dragonlance, Monk6/Rogue4/Fighter1. I will not be playing this character past level 11.
I’m thinking to go 1 level of rogue. 4 levels of monk. Take 1 level of fighter. 2 levels of monk. 3 more of rogue.
Initial Stats: Str:8 Dex:18 Con:14 Int:8 Wis:14 Chr:12.
This character will be a scout that sets up the rest of the party. His weapon of choice is the whip for reach. Though I will flavor it to be something more martial arty, like a rope dart, or a kyoketsu-shoge. So he will stealth or shadowport up to the baddies, smack them and run. Hopefully with the baddies chasing. Maybe he gets assassinate or stunning strike off, maybe he doesn’t.
The point is he leads the baddies back to the party who are waiting with bated breathe and held actions.
I guess I’m looking for feedback on 2 things.
First: Is that the right level progression. I’m trying to balance when I get the whip, which I need one level of fighter for. Vs Assassinate Vs Shadowport Vs ASIs.
In short:
Second: I could increase the DPR of this build by changing Dueling Fighting Style to Thrown-Weapon Fighting Style and taking Sharpshooter. DPR would go from 28.7 to 36.8 in the initial, advantage round of combat at 11th level. And I could have a longer stand off range.
But it would mean a lower armor class because my wisdom ASI would be taken up by Sharpshooter. And not only would it mean a lower Stunning Strike Save DC, you can’t stun from range.
Any thoughts? I love theory crafting characters. So I would love a good discussion where I could learn something new!
I popped to the forum with a similar build and similar questions(rime of the frostmaiden so level 11 too).
I am custom lineage rogue 1, fighter 1(unarmed fighting style d8), monk 6 (shadow most likely) then what next is the challenge.
my first feat is mobile or lucky with aim to get crusher at 6.
challenge at level 9 is will I go rogue for cunning action, fighter for action surge or monk for evasion and if I take rogue or fighter do I go for a subclass (champion/assassin or scout).
be pleased if the campaign gets that far.
DMs homebrew rules on asi every level and ki=prof+monk level have made me choose monk as it will never be as nice again.
For your build, I wouldn’t expect sharpshooter to be worth it but sounds like you have feats. Worth checking out the unarmed fighting style from fighter as this can give d8s for unarmed knocking out your need for slasher. Plan is to swap it to blind fighting at some point.
Only my opinion and my Monk is Open Hand, so primarily a skirmisher who does a little battlefield control. High Dex and proficiency in Stealth through class or background makes Monks almost as sneaky as Rogues if they want. Going straight Monk gets you your 2nd attack earlier than either proposed build. Monk speed means racing back to/past the waiting ambush should be easy enough. You want a d8 damage? Grab a quarterstaff and 2 hand attack with it. It's a Monk weapon so you still get your free Bonus Action unarmed strike or can FoB with your BA if you prefer.
I see you may be going more for theme than bang for the buck, so pick your preferred flavor. Mechanically, I think the pure Monk might serve just as well for out of combat things and better when it hits the fan so to speak. Yes, the Rogue's Expertise gives a little edge and Sneak Attack is a cool bonus to damage, but maybe take a level in Rogue after getting 6 in Monk, so your hands are magical to overcome resistance when needed (assuming no magic weapon has come your way by then)
Talk to your Players. Talk to your DM. If more people used this advice, there would be 24.74% fewer threads on Tactics, Rules and DM discussions.
The rogue for me was more related to role in a small party where we need skills coverage. I don’t really need the sneak attack but when I need a ranged attack option at low levels it can be useful and can make the shortsword handy if I am light on ki. If we had a bigger party with a rogue or 5 people to cover skills I would likely drop rogue but keep fighter.
The d8 is for all attacks so at level 4 with fob it’s 3xd8+dex or 4d6+ 3xdex with shortsword damage vs d8 plus 2xd4+dex. At 5(and 6 for me) clearly extra attack is stronger but I straight build is weaker at levels above and below
The other benefits are second wind very helpful at low level due to squishiness, switching to Blind fighting once monk dice improve which I want with my darkness spell plus once I have the extra attack , 1 fighter level gives action surge for a 6xd8+dex nova round.
The treated as magic is a big risk though as I have 2 levels where it might be expected I can hit but I can’t. I am hopeful I will have access to a magical weapon (monk or finesse) that I could use for this. Plus obviously less ki.
If it were me I'd go Action Surge unless your table never takes short rests or you know you're going to run into a lot of AOE dex saves. Cunning action is almost worthless if you already have mobile and Step of the Wind.
Since I wrote that I decided to dump fighter and Slasher altogether. Instead take weapon master as the Custom Lineage feat. It would give me the whip from first level, even though I can't use it as a monk weapon until third level (monk 2). I thought about the unarmed fighting style, but I envision this character as someone who always stands 10 feet away because of the whip. So I'll only use unarmed strikes if the whip is useless.
I am going for more of a theme than a munchkin. Anyone can make a munchkin. Just go one of the YouTube channels like Treantmonk or CMCC and build what they say to build. They've already figured out most of the math. (Though the probability behind the monk class is dubious at best because they take some skill to run.) I would rather try to take something that is different and then try to optimize that.
I used to have a friend who built cars for racing but he never had a lot of money. He used to say, "You can't make a racehorse out of a pig. But with a little hard work, you can make a really fast pig." I'm trying to make a really fast pig.
I'm going rogue for 2 reasons. First expertise in Stealth will keep my casting of Darkness and Pass Without Trace to a minimum. Which will save on Ki.
Second, Assassinate will me Advantage will give me advantage in the first round of combat when I win initiative. And since Dragonlance gives me Alert for free, I will almost always win initiative.
You will almost certainly have a magic weapon since Fighter has proficiency in all weapons and you make any weapon you're proficient in, a monk weapon. Unless your table doesn't use Tasha's optional rules.
I'd go swash over assassin. You can sneak on nearly every turn between stealth, flanking, shadowstep, and isolating single opponents.
It's kind of a wash between assassin and swashbuckler. The way I want to use this character, with a first round shadow step in to try to get surprise, swashbuckler gets a 20.3 DPR and assassin gets a 26.2 (without surprise). But then any round after that where I spend 1 Ki assassin drops to 25.3 DPR and swashbuckler goes up to 27.7. In a round where I spend no Ki, swashbuckler drops to 26.9 and assassin stays at 25.3. So assuming I spend 2 Ki in the first round and 1 in the second for stunning strike and assuming 4 round combat.
Assassin gets 102.1, Swashbuckler 101.8. three tenths of a DPR, almost no difference.
Of course if combat goes longer than 4 rounds, it favors the swashbuckler. And if I get surprise, the assassin would do much better.
I'm also assuming I win initiative. But the character will have a 20 dex and the Alert feat, so I think that's a safe assumption. If I lose initiative, the swashbuckler does better.
Thanks for the comments.
Swash without much charisma feels wrong for me (and I have enough ability scores that need attention). Either could fit the character as could scout but I suspect assassin would be the one.
Note:cunning action is still really useful. Bonus action dash means I can go 100ft and still stunning strike the wizard. Plus also bonus action hide is strong if I set up my darkness. It’s just the disengage I am unlikely to use(although could save ki if I am surrounded eg if I did something foolish like dash 100ft to the middle of the enemies to get the wizard on the last turn…)
If we make it that far I will make the call based on how the game develops and what role I seem to take.
Yeah you're right, no feat or feature is worthless. I shouldn't have said that. I get a little tunnel vision from time to time and It doesn't do much for the way I want to use my character.
That said I would still take Action Surge and Evasion over Cunning Action. You will always want another action. And Evasion comes with an extra Ki point as well.
Besides, if you dashed 100 feet to get to the wizard, go out in a blaze of glory!!
I will likely take the action surge first as it works well with my shadow monk allowing darkness cast and then advantage attacks after this plus it’s never not useful.
But if my DM has massive maps(possible in icewind dale) I may take both and delay subclass as assassin is situational(needs alert feat) and champion can likely wait(unless I find I am heavily crit fishing crusher).
My suggestion for Swash is based on many DMs not favoring surprise, whereas it is almost impossible to not get sneak damage with swash by intelligent use of movement / shadowstep and fancy footwork.
Yeah I understood that. I did The DPR without surprise.
The reason why the Assassin outperforms the Swashbuckler in the first round is advantage. With Assassinate, Alert and a 20 Dex the Assassin will get advantage most of the time, in the first round.
I'm also not worried about Sneak Attack because I would have a melee fighter in the party and I'll just attack what she's attacking.
The upside to playing a Swashbuckler is you can use a rapier(D8) and use Fancy Footwork to get a free disengage. The Assassin has to use a whip(D4, D6 at 5th) to do something similar. That's why the Swashbuckler does more damage after the first. The Swashbuckler gets 3D8 to the Assassin's 3D6 in a round where it spends 1 Ki. And the Swashbuckler gets 2D8 + 1D6 vs the Assassin's 3D6 in a round with no Ki spent. Plus Sneak Attack of course.
But those are my thoughts on the matter. You may want to run the character completely differently.
Unfortunately, this campaign got canceled so I probably won't play this character anyway.