I've posted this on too many other threads, so I decided it would make more sense to post my own thread and just link to it instead.
For those unaware, Wizards of the Coast have managed to do the unthinkable in the latest playtest and somehow nerf the Monk even more by limiting Stunning Strike to once per turn, effectively eliminating the only later game scaling the class had. The real problem is that they're insisting on keeping Stunning Strike as it is, rather than making a more radical change, and really the Monk is in desperate need of some more core features to build upon.
What I would like to see is some kind of build-up mechanic that allows a Monk to build towards debilitating effects through striking targets; I think this would help differentiate Monk, as well as giving sub-classes something fun to build on top of, and Stunning Strike could still be a part of that. I would see it working something like:
Focused Strikes
5th-level Monk feature
Whenever you hit a target with a monk weapon or unarmed strike, it gains 1 Focus point. Focus remains on the target until spent, or until you end your turn without hitting that target. As a bonus action on your turn you may spend 1 Discipline to activate one of the following abilities on any number of targets, spending the required Focus from each. If an ability requires a saving throw, the Focus is only spent when the target fails.
Distracting Strike (1 Focus). The target has disadvantage on its next ability check or attack roll.
Slowing Strike (2 Focus). The target must make a Dexterity saving throw or be slowed* until the end of its next turn.
Dazing Strike (3 Focus). The target must make a Constitution saving throw or be dazed** until the end of your next turn.
Stunning Strike (5 Focus). The target must make a Constitution saving throw or be stunned until the end of your next turn.
*slowed is a playtest condition that halves a target's speed, gives it disadvantage on DEX saves and advantage on attacks against it. **dazed is a playtest condition that limits a target to moving or taking an action, and it can't take a bonus action or reaction.
This has not been playtested at all and the numbers and abilities are fully up for debate and revision.
The basic idea is you must build up an amount of Focus before spending it (along with 1 Discipline and a bonus action) to trigger an effect. You can potentially build Focus on multiple targets, but this will work best for the less expensive abilities (due to the Rage-like loss if you fail to keep hitting). This also means that Stunning Strike requires at least one turn to build up to the first attempt, while limiting the cost to 1 Discipline per round. This makes it more of a later game feature. It's possible this is still too early for Stunning Strike, in which case it might make sense to have an Improved Focused Strikes feature with additional abilities (including Stunning Strike) at a later level.
This does nothing to fix the scaling on its own, that requires other features, but gives an (IMO) neat core feature sub-classes can easily build upon. For example, Open Hand could add Open Hand Technique as Focused Strikes, and when it makes a Flurry of Blows maybe it could swap one attack for a focused strikes. This would remove the reliance on flurry of blows, but still give you a benefit to using it (an extra attack to apply Focus with).
For scaling my preference is for Monks to gain a second bonus action for 1 Discipline at higher levels, maybe 11th- or 13th-level? This would initially be limited to a different bonus action (can't double Flurry) but that restriction could be lifted with the capstone. With the Monk no longer burning Ki on brute forcing Stunning Strikes this would give them a lot more flexibility. For example, they could make five basic attacks (Extra Attack + Flurry of Blows + Martial Arts) for 2 Discpline, or six attacks after the capstone (Extra Attack + Flurry + Flurry) for 3 Discipline, or they can maintain damage while dodging (Extra Attack + Flurry + Patient Defence) for 3 Discipline. After the capstone they could trigger two different Focused Strikes (Extra Attack + Focus + Focus) if they built up enough Focus (easy after a double Flurry), which could also means multiple attacks at the same strike (if the target(s) passed the first save) and so-on. They'd still be resource bound but what they can do with these resources would be greatly expanded.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
This is an interesting idea. But might slow down combat while you track Focus points, especially if you are trying to hit multiple enemies to build up Focus.
One thought I had, probably mentioned in a different thread somewhere, that I might be fine leaving stunning strike as a once per turn ability if they had it similar to the old version of Abjure Foes for Paladin. You spend 1 Di point and on a failure the target is stunned. On a success the target is dazed. Maybe it seems too powerful but you are using a resource, Discipline, and only once per turn. And Dazed, while powerful, isn’t quite as debilitating as stun.
This is an interesting idea. But might slow down combat while you track Focus points, especially if you are trying to hit multiple enemies to build up Focus.
I forgot to mention in this post, but one of my inspirations for this is the Way of the Leaden Crown sub-class from the Grim Hollow third party campaign; it's basically a psionic monk with a higher level feature that lets them trigger "pressure points" on a target, then trigger them later for damage based on how many they stacked before doing it.
With one target it's dead easy to track, you just need to tally it for every hit you land, but I could see multiple still being fairly easy; probably easiest with pen and paper as you can just put down something for each enemy (A, B, C if they're otherwise identical) and just tally under each one. If you go a round without hitting one, cross it off, if you trigger focus, cross those off.
My thinking though is that in practice you're unlikely to build up much Focus on multiple targets, as the more you try to hit, and more rounds you try to do it over, the more likely you are to waste it; hitting multiple makes most sense when you intend to trigger an immediate effect without a saving throw, or one with a save where you only care about who passes or fails to either exploit or keep trying, so the numbers should be pretty low in use. You're not likely to try for multiple Stunning Strikes unless you burn a lot of Discipline on extra bonus actions to built up the hits as fast as possible.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
I like this idea a lot. It gives monks more of a "combo" feel to their fighting and adds a tactical element to spreading out your numerous attacks. It would be hard to track alongside having Discipline (Ki) points but a new core feature or a true replacement for Ki is long overdue. Con saves are still painful for the monk so would this come with a change to their DC? Either a DC that uses Con or Dex, or changing Stun and Daze to be based on Wisdom saves might help.
I also think having to still spend a bonus action AND Discipline/Ki points is asking a bit much of the monk. Especially if you compare this to Sorcery points or other similar resources. Why can't WotC just give stunning strike a similar makeover to what they did with sneak attack on Rogues by giving them cunning strikes.
Con saves are still painful for the monk so would this come with a change to their DC? Either a DC that uses Con or Dex, or changing Stun and Daze to be based on Wisdom saves might help.
Constitution still feels like the correct saving throw for these effects, but there's plenty of scope to add some other effects targeting different saving throws? I was thinking of adding a frightened effect targeting Wisdom.
I also think having to still spend a bonus action AND Discipline/Ki points is asking a bit much of the monk. Especially if you compare this to Sorcery points or other similar resources. Why can't WotC just give stunning strike a similar makeover to what they did with sneak attack on Rogues by giving them cunning strikes.
I was actually just looking at how I would adapt Way of Mercy to work with this system; what if the focused strike replaced one of your unarmed strikes like Way of Mercy's Hand of Healing does, and becomes free if you trade from a Flurry of Blows? This might be more sustainable anyway if the idea is for Discipline to become a long rest resource?
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
I like this idea a lot. It gives monks more of a "combo" feel to their fighting and adds a tactical element to spreading out your numerous attacks. It would be hard to track alongside having Discipline (Ki) points but a new core feature or a true replacement for Ki is long overdue. Con saves are still painful for the monk so would this come with a change to their DC? Either a DC that uses Con or Dex, or changing Stun and Daze to be based on Wisdom saves might help.
I also think having to still spend a bonus action AND Discipline/Ki points is asking a bit much of the monk. Especially if you compare this to Sorcery points or other similar resources. Why can't WotC just give stunning strike a similar makeover to what they did with sneak attack on Rogues by giving them cunning strikes.
They kind of did in a backhanded way with the change to unarmed strikes with Shove and Grapple (they need to let monk use DEX instead of STR) and Open Hand Technique always had some options (but they screwed that up in the UA as well) with Addle, Push, Topple.
That’s five different options. Now they just have to fix them and expand for the base monk.
Im finding I am liking the UA monk less and less the more I look at it. It really does feel like they are intentionally making them bad. So ideas like the OP might make for good homebrew
They kind of did in a backhanded way with the change to unarmed strikes with Shove and Grapple (they need to let monk use DEX instead of STR) and Open Hand Technique always had some options (but they screwed that up in the UA as well) with Addle, Push, Topple.
For people unfamiliar with the recent UA, "screwing up Open Hand Technique" means "the Monk doesn't have a 100%-guaranteed no-saves-allowed way to prevent two separate enemies from taking reactions".
Yes. Like the cantrip Shocking Grasp. Except Shocking grasp does not require any resource to use, just the Cast a Spell action (Magic Action). Flurry of Blows, however, does require a Discipline Point to use, plus your action economy for a bonus action, plus the Attack Action to actually activate the BA. There was absolutely no need to add the save. I don't think I've seen anywhere on these forums in the 4 years I've been active, that anyone ever claimed that Open Hand Technique's reaction removal feature was OP.
And actually, I think the save should be removed from the Push with possibly reducing the distance pushed. Crusher requires no save to push, Repelling Blast requires no save to push, etc. Topple is questionable if it would be too good without the save.
I do hope that they work something out with Topple Weapon Mastery so an additional roll isn't necessary during combat, slowing things down, but if they leave it, I could live with that.
They kind of did in a backhanded way with the change to unarmed strikes with Shove and Grapple (they need to let monk use DEX instead of STR) and Open Hand Technique always had some options (but they screwed that up in the UA as well) with Addle, Push, Topple.
For people unfamiliar with the recent UA, "screwing up Open Hand Technique" means "the Monk doesn't have a 100%-guaranteed no-saves-allowed way to prevent two separate enemies from taking reactions".
Took a look at your posts and you seem like a monk apologist who isn't interested in hearing any critique about the monk. I used to be like you until I understood just how holistic the issues with the class are. Not sure why you are treating criticism of the class like a personal insult but there are many many videos/posts/articles/etc on why the issues with monk are real and not just a "hypothetical featureless combat situation". If you just plan on arguing with the people on this post, at least engage in good faith.
I'm just gonna take pride in the fact that countering rhetoric with logic and information apparently makes me an "apologist" as if certain people believe a class that isn't power-gamey enough is a war crime. =^_^=
You are literally being an apologist for the class though? You assume everyone's criticisms are nothing but optimization talk even when points have been made about how the monk class also falls behind the others in terms of class fantasy and other aspects. Why do you feel that people just "believe a class that isn't power-gamey enough is a war crime". The issues with monk are more than just how it falls behind in damage. You aren't countering rhetoric with logic and information, you are arguing under every forum that doesn't agree with you just because you can. More power to you I guess but it doesn't change the class's objective flaws. Even if you don't see the class's issues, why argue under a post that is proposing new ideas for what direction this class can move in? Does this harm monk players?
I was intrigued by Haravikk's idea, and quite excited at the mention of Cunning Strike from Kromeo. Playtest 6's Rogue is in my opinion the best thing in all these playtests so far, and to see others explore this idea for the Monk is awesome. When I first saw Cunning Strike, I went "Why doesn't the Rogue already have this?" (as in why wasn't it initially designed with this). Now I'm doing the same for Monk- why doesn't the Monk have maneuver-like abilities?
Perhaps instead of Focus as Haravikk suggested, some of these effects can be applied or just work after certain Hit Point thresholds are met/with Di points? Slowed could be one of these effects, and yes a Frightened effect would also be an excellent option. Subclasses could even provide benefits or additional maneuvers to these "Focused Strikes" as well, just as Rogue subclasses do for Cunning Strike.
I've made posts on a couple other forums regarding ideas/changes to the Monk, and I agree with ThriKreenWarrior's statement: I too like the new Monk less and less the more I look at it. I like a few of the additions (subclass changes, Heightened Metabolism), but more and more the homebrew ideas I see from others I feel are better additions than most of the ones made in official Playtests (regarding the Monk specifically).
I've posted this on too many other threads, so I decided it would make more sense to post my own thread and just link to it instead.
For those unaware, Wizards of the Coast have managed to do the unthinkable in the latest playtest and somehow nerf the Monk even more by limiting Stunning Strike to once per turn, effectively eliminating the only later game scaling the class had. The real problem is that they're insisting on keeping Stunning Strike as it is, rather than making a more radical change, and really the Monk is in desperate need of some more core features to build upon.
What I would like to see is some kind of build-up mechanic that allows a Monk to build towards debilitating effects through striking targets; I think this would help differentiate Monk, as well as giving sub-classes something fun to build on top of, and Stunning Strike could still be a part of that. I would see it working something like:
*slowed is a playtest condition that halves a target's speed, gives it disadvantage on DEX saves and advantage on attacks against it.
**dazed is a playtest condition that limits a target to moving or taking an action, and it can't take a bonus action or reaction.
This has not been playtested at all and the numbers and abilities are fully up for debate and revision.
The basic idea is you must build up an amount of Focus before spending it (along with 1 Discipline and a bonus action) to trigger an effect. You can potentially build Focus on multiple targets, but this will work best for the less expensive abilities (due to the Rage-like loss if you fail to keep hitting). This also means that Stunning Strike requires at least one turn to build up to the first attempt, while limiting the cost to 1 Discipline per round. This makes it more of a later game feature. It's possible this is still too early for Stunning Strike, in which case it might make sense to have an Improved Focused Strikes feature with additional abilities (including Stunning Strike) at a later level.
This does nothing to fix the scaling on its own, that requires other features, but gives an (IMO) neat core feature sub-classes can easily build upon. For example, Open Hand could add Open Hand Technique as Focused Strikes, and when it makes a Flurry of Blows maybe it could swap one attack for a focused strikes. This would remove the reliance on flurry of blows, but still give you a benefit to using it (an extra attack to apply Focus with).
For scaling my preference is for Monks to gain a second bonus action for 1 Discipline at higher levels, maybe 11th- or 13th-level? This would initially be limited to a different bonus action (can't double Flurry) but that restriction could be lifted with the capstone. With the Monk no longer burning Ki on brute forcing Stunning Strikes this would give them a lot more flexibility. For example, they could make five basic attacks (Extra Attack + Flurry of Blows + Martial Arts) for 2 Discpline, or six attacks after the capstone (Extra Attack + Flurry + Flurry) for 3 Discipline, or they can maintain damage while dodging (Extra Attack + Flurry + Patient Defence) for 3 Discipline. After the capstone they could trigger two different Focused Strikes (Extra Attack + Focus + Focus) if they built up enough Focus (easy after a double Flurry), which could also means multiple attacks at the same strike (if the target(s) passed the first save) and so-on. They'd still be resource bound but what they can do with these resources would be greatly expanded.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
This is an interesting idea. But might slow down combat while you track Focus points, especially if you are trying to hit multiple enemies to build up Focus.
One thought I had, probably mentioned in a different thread somewhere, that I might be fine leaving stunning strike as a once per turn ability if they had it similar to the old version of Abjure Foes for Paladin. You spend 1 Di point and on a failure the target is stunned. On a success the target is dazed. Maybe it seems too powerful but you are using a resource, Discipline, and only once per turn. And Dazed, while powerful, isn’t quite as debilitating as stun.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
I forgot to mention in this post, but one of my inspirations for this is the Way of the Leaden Crown sub-class from the Grim Hollow third party campaign; it's basically a psionic monk with a higher level feature that lets them trigger "pressure points" on a target, then trigger them later for damage based on how many they stacked before doing it.
With one target it's dead easy to track, you just need to tally it for every hit you land, but I could see multiple still being fairly easy; probably easiest with pen and paper as you can just put down something for each enemy (A, B, C if they're otherwise identical) and just tally under each one. If you go a round without hitting one, cross it off, if you trigger focus, cross those off.
My thinking though is that in practice you're unlikely to build up much Focus on multiple targets, as the more you try to hit, and more rounds you try to do it over, the more likely you are to waste it; hitting multiple makes most sense when you intend to trigger an immediate effect without a saving throw, or one with a save where you only care about who passes or fails to either exploit or keep trying, so the numbers should be pretty low in use. You're not likely to try for multiple Stunning Strikes unless you burn a lot of Discipline on extra bonus actions to built up the hits as fast as possible.
That's my thinking anyway.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
I like this idea a lot. It gives monks more of a "combo" feel to their fighting and adds a tactical element to spreading out your numerous attacks. It would be hard to track alongside having Discipline (Ki) points but a new core feature or a true replacement for Ki is long overdue. Con saves are still painful for the monk so would this come with a change to their DC? Either a DC that uses Con or Dex, or changing Stun and Daze to be based on Wisdom saves might help.
I also think having to still spend a bonus action AND Discipline/Ki points is asking a bit much of the monk. Especially if you compare this to Sorcery points or other similar resources. Why can't WotC just give stunning strike a similar makeover to what they did with sneak attack on Rogues by giving them cunning strikes.
Constitution still feels like the correct saving throw for these effects, but there's plenty of scope to add some other effects targeting different saving throws? I was thinking of adding a frightened effect targeting Wisdom.
I was actually just looking at how I would adapt Way of Mercy to work with this system; what if the focused strike replaced one of your unarmed strikes like Way of Mercy's Hand of Healing does, and becomes free if you trade from a Flurry of Blows? This might be more sustainable anyway if the idea is for Discipline to become a long rest resource?
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
They kind of did in a backhanded way with the change to unarmed strikes with Shove and Grapple (they need to let monk use DEX instead of STR) and Open Hand Technique always had some options (but they screwed that up in the UA as well) with Addle, Push, Topple.
That’s five different options. Now they just have to fix them and expand for the base monk.
Im finding I am liking the UA monk less and less the more I look at it. It really does feel like they are intentionally making them bad. So ideas like the OP might make for good homebrew
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
Yes. Like the cantrip Shocking Grasp. Except Shocking grasp does not require any resource to use, just the Cast a Spell action (Magic Action). Flurry of Blows, however, does require a Discipline Point to use, plus your action economy for a bonus action, plus the Attack Action to actually activate the BA. There was absolutely no need to add the save. I don't think I've seen anywhere on these forums in the 4 years I've been active, that anyone ever claimed that Open Hand Technique's reaction removal feature was OP.
And actually, I think the save should be removed from the Push with possibly reducing the distance pushed. Crusher requires no save to push, Repelling Blast requires no save to push, etc. Topple is questionable if it would be too good without the save.
I do hope that they work something out with Topple Weapon Mastery so an additional roll isn't necessary during combat, slowing things down, but if they leave it, I could live with that.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
Took a look at your posts and you seem like a monk apologist who isn't interested in hearing any critique about the monk. I used to be like you until I understood just how holistic the issues with the class are. Not sure why you are treating criticism of the class like a personal insult but there are many many videos/posts/articles/etc on why the issues with monk are real and not just a "hypothetical featureless combat situation". If you just plan on arguing with the people on this post, at least engage in good faith.
You are literally being an apologist for the class though? You assume everyone's criticisms are nothing but optimization talk even when points have been made about how the monk class also falls behind the others in terms of class fantasy and other aspects. Why do you feel that people just "believe a class that isn't power-gamey enough is a war crime". The issues with monk are more than just how it falls behind in damage. You aren't countering rhetoric with logic and information, you are arguing under every forum that doesn't agree with you just because you can. More power to you I guess but it doesn't change the class's objective flaws. Even if you don't see the class's issues, why argue under a post that is proposing new ideas for what direction this class can move in? Does this harm monk players?
dam Kromeo. "Enemy officer has been defeated". spitting facts
I was intrigued by Haravikk's idea, and quite excited at the mention of Cunning Strike from Kromeo. Playtest 6's Rogue is in my opinion the best thing in all these playtests so far, and to see others explore this idea for the Monk is awesome. When I first saw Cunning Strike, I went "Why doesn't the Rogue already have this?" (as in why wasn't it initially designed with this). Now I'm doing the same for Monk- why doesn't the Monk have maneuver-like abilities?
Perhaps instead of Focus as Haravikk suggested, some of these effects can be applied or just work after certain Hit Point thresholds are met/with Di points? Slowed could be one of these effects, and yes a Frightened effect would also be an excellent option. Subclasses could even provide benefits or additional maneuvers to these "Focused Strikes" as well, just as Rogue subclasses do for Cunning Strike.
I've made posts on a couple other forums regarding ideas/changes to the Monk, and I agree with ThriKreenWarrior's statement: I too like the new Monk less and less the more I look at it. I like a few of the additions (subclass changes, Heightened Metabolism), but more and more the homebrew ideas I see from others I feel are better additions than most of the ones made in official Playtests (regarding the Monk specifically).