Reads to me like they're suggesting a different character/monk in each scenario.
Assuming that this is correct, and I can think of no reason to pull my punches,
Scenario 1:
You awake to discover that you are naked except for a pair of adamantium manacles in a dimly lit room. The room is 30ft by 30ft square. You are held dangling suspended at the end of a 10ft adamantium chain. Your feet are five feet above the ground. Beneath you is a 10ft diameter pit of undeterminable depth and impenetrable darkness. Lined along the walls are hooded cultists chanting in Undercommon. From the way they pronounce their words, you think they are probably not human or demihuman. In the distance, you hear the slow drip of cave water and the walls are covered in slime. An odd smell fills the air, you guess maybe mollusk? Maybe squid?
What the hell is this? If my DM had us naked and alone to figure this stuff out I would be giving them a funny look for one and then two.... Monk will not be doing much in this situation either so I'm not sure what the heck you expect.
"Tabaxi (who can do 60' every other turn and who also have Stealth)"
But, to get that 60' every other turn, Tabaxi can't move in between. They would have to alternate 60' one turn, 0' one turn, 60' one turn. That still averages out to 30' per turn.
I already mentioned a scenario I faced as a player. I'll give it to you now. Second level pc. Three kobolds running away from you. They can't be allowed to escape. They have headed off in three different directions and all have a 40 foot head start on you. If you manage to kill the first one in one round, the second one will now be 60 away from your new position (or 70 feet away from your original position). When you catch up to the second one, the third one will be 80 feet away from you. Oh, and they are running through a canyon littered with 10 foot high boulders, so, they will often have good cover against a long bow.
Fly spell....I can cast it on three of us.
Boom done.
NOPE
That's make you a Wizard, not a Fighter.
Besides, Darkaiser's assertion includes the statement
You tell me why the Monk would be better at that than anything I can build without magic items or allies casting spells
I'm a warlock actually and it fits that description....
It's without magic items and I'm casting the spell.
I don't see where they specified fighter.
That's fair. But, your alternative requires two additional characters.
A lot of “maths are on my side” with no maths backing it up.
It was nice of treatmonk to pay us a visit though.
PS monks can cast fly too. Paired with water whip and fireball is amazing to witness.
If you're referring to me I'd say that most of my posts have been about the maths.
If someone really likes the Monk class and subclasses, more power to them. However, you're going to have to work long and hard to convince me that I can't do more than half of what can do as well if not better with another character. The stuff that the Monk DOES do well, I don't think is worth all the stuff it doesn't. Sure...if you want the guy who can fight naked with a piece of string for a weapon then the Monk will likely do really well. Personally, I don't see circumstances like that so I don't feel as though I'm missing out.
At least you’ve shifted your goal posts slightly. It’s now gone from “it’s awful at everything” to now being “it has a niche”. I can make a Wizard that does everything, but better. But that’s not really the objective of the post and further diverges from the discussion. It’s attempting to draw attention to a perceived weakness with in the community.
A monk is more than just mobility and stunning/flurry blows. And reducing it to that is why people fail to understand it. Or how to use subclasses. Does it have some short comings? Absolutely. But nothing as drastic as your posts say it is. It just needs some tweaking.
A lot of “maths are on my side” with no maths backing it up.
It was nice of treatmonk to pay us a visit though.
PS monks can cast fly too. Paired with water whip and fireball is amazing to witness.
Certainly. At 11th level you can spend 10 ki to fly, cast one fireball, and use water whip, leaving you with one ki for the rest of the fight.
Meanwhile an 11th level Wizard can expend one third level spell slot to fly, and another third level to cast fireball. Granted there doesn't seem to be a Wizard equivalent of water whip, but the following turn the Wizard will still have four first, three second, one third, three fourth, two fifth, and one sixth level spell slots remaining, plus cantrips (doing 3d8 or 3d10 damage) if they ever run out of spell slots.
If the Monk had twice as much ki per level as it does it might be a decent class but as it stands it just burns up its resources too quickly.
(Also, for whoever kept saying it earlier, Monk cannot use a shield)
This really doesn't seem like much worth arguing about. A run-of-the-mill dexterity based fighter can start the game doing D8+3 damage at 150 feet with a longbow, and D8+3 damage in melee with a rapier and shield (while still being AC16 with the shield and leather armour). The monk with 16 dexterity and wisdom can equal that AC, and also do D8+3 with his monk weapon spear, but without the range, and the monk has to be a bit more careful levelling up, where the fighter can just grab whatever they want. Especially given their extra ASIs. Monk as a class really need some extra ASIs to keep up with the game. Rogue gets one, fighter gets two, why not monk?
I wasn't the one who brought up how Way of the Four Elements Monk could expend (nearly) all its ki for three glorious turns of casting fly, fireball, and water whip.
I play Warlocks (specifically Hexblades) so I'm used to operating with an extremely limited resource (spell slots) but I can still choose not to use them and still be effective. Either with agonizing blast boosted eldritch blast, or being able to summon +1 magical weapons from level 3. The existence of the double-bladed scimitar allows me to weaponize my bonus attack in the same way that Monks do, so at level 5 with thirsting blade I can average 27 magical weapon damage a round without expending resources. Assuming Monks have their dexterity at 18 thanks to an ASI or half feat at level 4 and are using a D10 weapon like a longsword or warhammer (thanks to a racial proficiency or Kensei) they also average 27 damage, but nonmagical at that point. A Paladin or Fighter that's reached this point and taken polearm master at level 4 with a glaive, they won't have been able to boost their strength beyond 16 or 17 (obviously variant human excepted) and that will make their average damage 23 at level five, again non-magical.
In terms of AC, I use mage armor on my Warlock so his AC is 16 without magic armour. The monk has 18 dex and started with 16 wisdom, so is AC17, and it's likely both the Fighter and Paladin have found 200 gold for splint plate at level 5 for AC17, or AC18 with the defensive fighting style, which is probably the best choice for a polearm fighter. In terms of HP, I tend to assume that 14 constitution is a normal starting level, but then I typically have two 16s in my primary stats. At level 5 with D8 HP and using averages the Warlock and the Monk would have 38HP and the D10 Paladin and Fighter would have 45.
I am going to go out there and say that in terms of damage and durability the Monk is okay in comparison to a Fighter or Paladin, as long as nobody is expending any resources. Divine Smite (2 shots at 3D8 and 4 shots at 2D8 do create a large damage spike) or Battlemaster Maneuvers (4D8s at level 5). Monk can expend one of their five ki points to add an average of 8 damage to their attack each round with flurry of blows.
And the Hexblade casts Spirit Shroud to add up to 3D8 radiant (or necrotic or cold) damage to its attacks (1D8 per hit) per round for a minute (ten rounds). The Paladin can add up to 14D8 and the Hexblade, potentially, can add 30D8. But then the Hexblade is really a primary caster that plays in melee.
So, having run some numbers, I'm going to say that the Monk is not too bad. The big numbers for Fighter and Paladin start to arrive when they're able to stack Great Weapon Master and Pole Arm Master for potentially an extra 30 damage a round. Monks can't do that because they can't count weapons with the heavy or two-handed property as their Monk weapons (except Kensei using longbows). Their AC is stat dependent, not equipment dependent (magic items excepted) so they are bound to spending most of their ASIs on stat improvements. That's okay because there aren't that many feats that benefit them anyway. Maybe sharpshooter on a Kensei? Like I mentioned earlier, giving Monk an extra ASI, and twice as much ki, would probably go a long way to bringing the base class in line with the others.
If the argument is going to switch from "Monks are terrible" to "Wizards dominate the game at high levels," then I'm inclined to agree.
I had a 2nd level warlock who at least tied the monk... Actually the 10 min oof BA dash would be 100 rounds so easy more than what a 2nd monk could do.
Once you get higher level fly would take over and avoid all issues.... You can fly 1ft off the ground and avoid just about anything.
Need to climb a wall? Spider Climb!
Need to stun a target? How about the whole room? Hypnotic Pattern!
My major thing is that monks usually solve a problem that either never existed or is just bested by magic.
This is a core issue for martial classes in general but the monk suffers more because they are just good at a lot but not great at one thing....
In an all martial group I could see the monk shine ... But I've never been in one because magic is just too fun for a group to turn down
I wasn't the one who brought up how Way of the Four Elements Monk could expend (nearly) all its ki for three glorious turns of casting fly, fireball, and water whip.
I play Warlocks (specifically Hexblades) so I'm used to operating with an extremely limited resource (spell slots) but I can still choose not to use them and still be effective. Either with agonizing blast boosted eldritch blast, or being able to summon +1 magical weapons from level 3. The existence of the double-bladed scimitar allows me to weaponize my bonus attack in the same way that Monks do, so at level 5 with thirsting blade I can average 27 magical weapon damage a round without expending resources. Assuming Monks have their dexterity at 18 thanks to an ASI or half feat at level 4 and are using a D10 weapon like a longsword or warhammer (thanks to a racial proficiency or Kensei) they also average 27 damage, but nonmagical at that point. A Paladin or Fighter that's reached this point and taken polearm master at level 4 with a glaive, they won't have been able to boost their strength beyond 16 or 17 (obviously variant human excepted) and that will make their average damage 23 at level five, again non-magical.
In terms of AC, I use mage armor on my Warlock so his AC is 16 without magic armour. The monk has 18 dex and started with 16 wisdom, so is AC17, and it's likely both the Fighter and Paladin have found 200 gold for splint plate at level 5 for AC17, or AC18 with the defensive fighting style, which is probably the best choice for a polearm fighter. In terms of HP, I tend to assume that 14 constitution is a normal starting level, but then I typically have two 16s in my primary stats. At level 5 with D8 HP and using averages the Warlock and the Monk would have 38HP and the D10 Paladin and Fighter would have 45.
I am going to go out there and say that in terms of damage and durability the Monk is okay in comparison to a Fighter or Paladin, as long as nobody is expending any resources. Divine Smite (2 shots at 3D8 and 4 shots at 2D8 do create a large damage spike) or Battlemaster Maneuvers (4D8s at level 5). Monk can expend one of their five ki points to add an average of 8 damage to their attack each round with flurry of blows.
And the Hexblade casts Spirit Shroud to add up to 3D8 radiant (or necrotic or cold) damage to its attacks (1D8 per hit) per round for a minute (ten rounds). The Paladin can add up to 14D8 and the Hexblade, potentially, can add 30D8. But then the Hexblade is really a primary caster that plays in melee.
So, having run some numbers, I'm going to say that the Monk is not too bad. The big numbers for Fighter and Paladin start to arrive when they're able to stack Great Weapon Master and Pole Arm Master for potentially an extra 30 damage a round. Monks can't do that because they can't count weapons with the heavy or two-handed property as their Monk weapons (except Kensei using longbows). Their AC is stat dependent, not equipment dependent (magic items excepted) so they are bound to spending most of their ASIs on stat improvements. That's okay because there aren't that many feats that benefit them anyway. Maybe sharpshooter on a Kensei? Like I mentioned earlier, giving Monk an extra ASI, and twice as much ki, would probably go a long way to bringing the base class in line with the others.
Agreement with the extra ki.
I would make it WIS mod ki per short rest.
I would also give free uses of subclass based features per day equal to PB.
The big numbers for Fighter and Paladin start to arrive when they're able to stack Great Weapon Master and Pole Arm Master for potentially an extra 30 damage a round.
1.) Monks get stunning fist
2.) Monks are going to be attacking the enemy's rear line, not the tanks the straight melee types will be fighting
If the argument is going to switch from "Monks are terrible" to "Wizards dominate the game at high levels," then I'm inclined to agree.
I had a 2nd level warlock who at least tied the monk... Actually the 10 min oof BA dash would be 100 rounds so easy more than what a 2nd monk could do.
Once you get higher level fly would take over and avoid all issues.... You can fly 1ft off the ground and avoid just about anything.
Need to climb a wall? Spider Climb!
Need to stun a target? How about the whole room? Hypnotic Pattern!
My major thing is that monks usually solve a problem that either never existed or is just bested by magic.
This is a core issue for martial classes in general but the monk suffers more because they are just good at a lot but not great at one thing....
In an all martial group I could see the monk shine ... But I've never been in one because magic is just too fun for a group to turn down
A 2nd level Warlock gets to cast two spells per short rest and has 3 spells known. One of those will be Expeditious Retreat. What will the other one be?
If the argument is going to switch from "Monks are terrible" to "Wizards dominate the game at high levels," then I'm inclined to agree.
I had a 2nd level warlock who at least tied the monk... Actually the 10 min oof BA dash would be 100 rounds so easy more than what a 2nd monk could do.
Once you get higher level fly would take over and avoid all issues.... You can fly 1ft off the ground and avoid just about anything.
Need to climb a wall? Spider Climb!
Need to stun a target? How about the whole room? Hypnotic Pattern!
My major thing is that monks usually solve a problem that either never existed or is just bested by magic.
This is a core issue for martial classes in general but the monk suffers more because they are just good at a lot but not great at one thing....
In an all martial group I could see the monk shine ... But I've never been in one because magic is just too fun for a group to turn down
If the argument is going to switch from "Monks are terrible" to "Wizards dominate the game at high levels," then I'm inclined to agree.
I had a 2nd level warlock who at least tied the monk... Actually the 10 min oof BA dash would be 100 rounds so easy more than what a 2nd monk could do.
Once you get higher level fly would take over and avoid all issues.... You can fly 1ft off the ground and avoid just about anything.
Need to climb a wall? Spider Climb!
Need to stun a target? How about the whole room? Hypnotic Pattern!
My major thing is that monks usually solve a problem that either never existed or is just bested by magic.
This is a core issue for martial classes in general but the monk suffers more because they are just good at a lot but not great at one thing....
In an all martial group I could see the monk shine ... But I've never been in one because magic is just too fun for a group to turn down
If the argument is going to switch from "Monks are terrible" to "Wizards dominate the game at high levels," then I'm inclined to agree.
I had a 2nd level warlock who at least tied the monk... Actually the 10 min oof BA dash would be 100 rounds so easy more than what a 2nd monk could do.
Once you get higher level fly would take over and avoid all issues.... You can fly 1ft off the ground and avoid just about anything.
Need to climb a wall? Spider Climb!
Need to stun a target? How about the whole room? Hypnotic Pattern!
My major thing is that monks usually solve a problem that either never existed or is just bested by magic.
This is a core issue for martial classes in general but the monk suffers more because they are just good at a lot but not great at one thing....
In an all martial group I could see the monk shine ... But I've never been in one because magic is just too fun for a group to turn down
If the argument is going to switch from "Monks are terrible" to "Wizards dominate the game at high levels," then I'm inclined to agree.
I had a 2nd level warlock who at least tied the monk... Actually the 10 min oof BA dash would be 100 rounds so easy more than what a 2nd monk could do.
Once you get higher level fly would take over and avoid all issues.... You can fly 1ft off the ground and avoid just about anything.
Need to climb a wall? Spider Climb!
Need to stun a target? How about the whole room? Hypnotic Pattern!
My major thing is that monks usually solve a problem that either never existed or is just bested by magic.
This is a core issue for martial classes in general but the monk suffers more because they are just good at a lot but not great at one thing....
In an all martial group I could see the monk shine ... But I've never been in one because magic is just too fun for a group to turn down
A 2nd level Warlock gets to cast two spells per short rest and has 3 spells known. One of those will be Expeditious Retreat. What will the other one be?
After you cast ER, what are you going to do?
Run after the kobold?
A monk has 2 ki at that point... So what's your point here?
Like if the DM keeps tossing "you have to run to catch those guys!" Scenarios why not pick the spell that makes you better at it?
You can out run the Kobold and Agonizing blast then repelling blast them back or just kill them.
Damage wise your doing as good as anyone with d10+CHA damage.
Your scenarios seem to be "you are by yourself and have to run!" Or "Your by yourself and are tied up!"
I only played 5e for like 4 years at this point but I've literally never been in that scenario.....
Like if your DM is splitting the party so much I would be having a serious Convo with them about how dnd is a team game.
At least you’ve shifted your goal posts slightly. It’s now gone from “it’s awful at everything” to now being “it has a niche”. I can make a Wizard that does everything, but better. But that’s not really the objective of the post and further diverges from the discussion. It’s attempting to draw attention to a perceived weakness with in the community.
A monk is more than just mobility and stunning/flurry blows. And reducing it to that is why people fail to understand it. Or how to use subclasses. Does it have some short comings? Absolutely. But nothing as drastic as your posts say it is. It just needs some tweaking.
My point was, and is, that Monks don't do anything better than anyone else to the extent that I would favor them over any other class/race mix.
'I like them because they do lots of damage.' Not really.
'I like them because they have a High AC.' Nope, we've seen those numbers too.
'I like them because they're mobile.' I'm back to the Tabaxi Gloomstalker Ranger with the Mobility Feat. The only thing I can't do is run on water and up walls which for me is niche enough to not matter.
'I like them because they're really flavorful.' Okay, NOW we can talk because they ARE really flavorful. Now could we make them just a wee bit more effective?
Note that just because I feel this way about the Monk does NOT mean that I don't feel this way about other classes or subclasses as well. We've all heard and seen the horror that was the Beastmaster Ranger. The Berzerker Barb is bad because of one trait and that's the Exhaustion that comes from Rageing. And, by the way, it's not just the martial classes that have issues. Has anyone tried to run a Necromancer lately? The rules for those SUCK!
According to polls taken from somewhere, most D&D games end at around lvl 14-15. So...we're never going to see those really cool capstone abilities then? It's no wonder people play fighters to 11-12 and then multiclass...the last Attack is irrelevant. Personally, I think that many of the classes and subs need a balance pass.
Why is everyone running to Tashs's so they can essentially create their own race and class traits? Maybe because some of them are terrible by comparison?
I'm actually putting together a Youtube channel that will focus on D&D characters from 1-8 because IMHO if it takes longer than that for your character to come online then you're using a lot of the character's career waiting for the next great thing. I'm going to try and make the characters effective but I'm also going to provide lynchpins for a backstory because for me optimizing the character is secondary to having fun. In that regard, I'm not going to make every character a multiclass with 2 levels in Warlock just because it's effective, but if I'm NOT taking the big hits, or dealing the big damage, or using my piles of Skills, then I want to be doing SOMETHING.
At least you’ve shifted your goal posts slightly. It’s now gone from “it’s awful at everything” to now being “it has a niche”. I can make a Wizard that does everything, but better. But that’s not really the objective of the post and further diverges from the discussion. It’s attempting to draw attention to a perceived weakness with in the community.
A monk is more than just mobility and stunning/flurry blows. And reducing it to that is why people fail to understand it. Or how to use subclasses. Does it have some short comings? Absolutely. But nothing as drastic as your posts say it is. It just needs some tweaking.
My point was, and is, that Monks don't do anything better than anyone else to the extent that I would favor them over any other class/race mix.
'I like them because they do lots of damage.' Not really.
'I like them because they have a High AC.' Nope, we've seen those numbers too.
'I like them because they're mobile.' I'm back to the Tabaxi Gloomstalker Ranger with the Mobility Feat. The only thing I can't do is run on water and up walls which for me is niche enough to not matter.
'I like them because they're really flavorful.' Okay, NOW we can talk because they ARE really flavorful. Now could we make them just a wee bit more effective?
Note that just because I feel this way about the Monk does NOT mean that I don't feel this way about other classes or subclasses as well. We've all heard and seen the horror that was the Beastmaster Ranger. The Berzerker Barb is bad because of one trait and that's the Exhaustion that comes from Rageing. And, by the way, it's not just the martial classes that have issues. Has anyone tried to run a Necromancer lately? The rules for those SUCK!
According to polls taken from somewhere, most D&D games end at around lvl 14-15. So...we're never going to see those really cool capstone abilities then? It's no wonder people play fighters to 11-12 and then multiclass...the last Attack is irrelevant. Personally, I think that many of the classes and subs need a balance pass.
Why is everyone running to Tashs's so they can essentially create their own race and class traits? Maybe because some of them are terrible by comparison?
I'm actually putting together a Youtube channel that will focus on D&D characters from 1-8 because IMHO if it takes longer than that for your character to come online then you're using a lot of the character's career waiting for the next great thing. I'm going to try and make the characters effective but I'm also going to provide lynchpins for a backstory because for me optimizing the character is secondary to having fun. In that regard, I'm not going to make every character a multiclass with 2 levels in Warlock just because it's effective, but if I'm NOT taking the big hits, or dealing the big damage, or using my piles of Skills, then I want to be doing SOMETHING.
I'm still waiting to see your character. You've already been given scenarios.
A lot of “maths are on my side” with no maths backing it up.
It was nice of treatmonk to pay us a visit though.
PS monks can cast fly too. Paired with water whip and fireball is amazing to witness.
Certainly. At 11th level you can spend 10 ki to fly, cast one fireball, and use water whip, leaving you with one ki for the rest of the fight.
Meanwhile an 11th level Wizard can expend one third level spell slot to fly, and another third level to cast fireball. Granted there doesn't seem to be a Wizard equivalent of water whip, but the following turn the Wizard will still have four first, three second, one third, three fourth, two fifth, and one sixth level spell slots remaining, plus cantrips (doing 3d8 or 3d10 damage) if they ever run out of spell slots.
If the Monk had twice as much ki per level as it does it might be a decent class but as it stands it just burns up its resources too quickly.
And at eleventh level anything left standing with half its hit points after the fireball, and the BBEG after getting hit with the fireball, tossed up in the air and forced to make an acrobatics check to land on its feet or fall prone after taking 2d6 falling damage. There isn’t much need for ki after a 2 round nova.
A lot of “maths are on my side” with no maths backing it up.
It was nice of treatmonk to pay us a visit though.
PS monks can cast fly too. Paired with water whip and fireball is amazing to witness.
Certainly. At 11th level you can spend 10 ki to fly, cast one fireball, and use water whip, leaving you with one ki for the rest of the fight.
Meanwhile an 11th level Wizard can expend one third level spell slot to fly, and another third level to cast fireball. Granted there doesn't seem to be a Wizard equivalent of water whip, but the following turn the Wizard will still have four first, three second, one third, three fourth, two fifth, and one sixth level spell slots remaining, plus cantrips (doing 3d8 or 3d10 damage) if they ever run out of spell slots.
If the Monk had twice as much ki per level as it does it might be a decent class but as it stands it just burns up its resources too quickly.
And at eleventh level anything left standing with half its hit points after the fireball, and the BBEG after getting hit with the fireball, tossed up in the air and forced to make an acrobatics check to land on its feet or fall prone after taking 2d6 falling damage. There isn’t much need for ki after a 2 round nova.
Fireball is amazing when you get it but it's not so amazing at level 11.
A lot of stuff at that level is getting 100+ HP so it's not as great as it was at level 5 when the wizard got it.
Per the DMG CR 11 creatures have roughly 220 HP..... So that 26 fire damage is pretty weak sauce for a "nova"
Plus at that point the wizard has Animate Objects which justs demolishes so much with average damage well over what you can expect for fireball and it lasts for a lot longer.
What the hell is this? If my DM had us naked and alone to figure this stuff out I would be giving them a funny look for one and then two.... Monk will not be doing much in this situation either so I'm not sure what the heck you expect.
We playing DnD with one person now?
I specified that the scenario was for a 2nd lvl character. Fly is a 3rd level spell and would not be available to a 2nd level character.
Fine then I cast Expeditious Retreat....Dash as a BA for 10 mins.
If I'm a wood half elf warlock I'm clocking in at 70ft a turn.
If Darkaiser wants to start putting restrictions on which scenarios we can consider, then all he has to do is say so.
A lot of “maths are on my side” with no maths backing it up.
It was nice of treatmonk to pay us a visit though.
PS monks can cast fly too. Paired with water whip and fireball is amazing to witness.
If you're referring to me I'd say that most of my posts have been about the maths.
If someone really likes the Monk class and subclasses, more power to them. However, you're going to have to work long and hard to convince me that I can't do more than half of what can do as well if not better with another character. The stuff that the Monk DOES do well, I don't think is worth all the stuff it doesn't. Sure...if you want the guy who can fight naked with a piece of string for a weapon then the Monk will likely do really well. Personally, I don't see circumstances like that so I don't feel as though I'm missing out.
At least you’ve shifted your goal posts slightly. It’s now gone from “it’s awful at everything” to now being “it has a niche”. I can make a Wizard that does everything, but better. But that’s not really the objective of the post and further diverges from the discussion. It’s attempting to draw attention to a perceived weakness with in the community.
A monk is more than just mobility and stunning/flurry blows. And reducing it to that is why people fail to understand it. Or how to use subclasses. Does it have some short comings? Absolutely. But nothing as drastic as your posts say it is. It just needs some tweaking.
Certainly. At 11th level you can spend 10 ki to fly, cast one fireball, and use water whip, leaving you with one ki for the rest of the fight.
Meanwhile an 11th level Wizard can expend one third level spell slot to fly, and another third level to cast fireball. Granted there doesn't seem to be a Wizard equivalent of water whip, but the following turn the Wizard will still have four first, three second, one third, three fourth, two fifth, and one sixth level spell slots remaining, plus cantrips (doing 3d8 or 3d10 damage) if they ever run out of spell slots.
If the Monk had twice as much ki per level as it does it might be a decent class but as it stands it just burns up its resources too quickly.
(Also, for whoever kept saying it earlier, Monk cannot use a shield)
This really doesn't seem like much worth arguing about. A run-of-the-mill dexterity based fighter can start the game doing D8+3 damage at 150 feet with a longbow, and D8+3 damage in melee with a rapier and shield (while still being AC16 with the shield and leather armour). The monk with 16 dexterity and wisdom can equal that AC, and also do D8+3 with his monk weapon spear, but without the range, and the monk has to be a bit more careful levelling up, where the fighter can just grab whatever they want. Especially given their extra ASIs. Monk as a class really need some extra ASIs to keep up with the game. Rogue gets one, fighter gets two, why not monk?
If the argument is going to switch from "Monks are terrible" to "Wizards dominate the game at high levels," then I'm inclined to agree.
Is 11th a high level?
I wasn't the one who brought up how Way of the Four Elements Monk could expend (nearly) all its ki for three glorious turns of casting fly, fireball, and water whip.
I play Warlocks (specifically Hexblades) so I'm used to operating with an extremely limited resource (spell slots) but I can still choose not to use them and still be effective. Either with agonizing blast boosted eldritch blast, or being able to summon +1 magical weapons from level 3. The existence of the double-bladed scimitar allows me to weaponize my bonus attack in the same way that Monks do, so at level 5 with thirsting blade I can average 27 magical weapon damage a round without expending resources. Assuming Monks have their dexterity at 18 thanks to an ASI or half feat at level 4 and are using a D10 weapon like a longsword or warhammer (thanks to a racial proficiency or Kensei) they also average 27 damage, but nonmagical at that point. A Paladin or Fighter that's reached this point and taken polearm master at level 4 with a glaive, they won't have been able to boost their strength beyond 16 or 17 (obviously variant human excepted) and that will make their average damage 23 at level five, again non-magical.
In terms of AC, I use mage armor on my Warlock so his AC is 16 without magic armour. The monk has 18 dex and started with 16 wisdom, so is AC17, and it's likely both the Fighter and Paladin have found 200 gold for splint plate at level 5 for AC17, or AC18 with the defensive fighting style, which is probably the best choice for a polearm fighter. In terms of HP, I tend to assume that 14 constitution is a normal starting level, but then I typically have two 16s in my primary stats. At level 5 with D8 HP and using averages the Warlock and the Monk would have 38HP and the D10 Paladin and Fighter would have 45.
I am going to go out there and say that in terms of damage and durability the Monk is okay in comparison to a Fighter or Paladin, as long as nobody is expending any resources. Divine Smite (2 shots at 3D8 and 4 shots at 2D8 do create a large damage spike) or Battlemaster Maneuvers (4D8s at level 5). Monk can expend one of their five ki points to add an average of 8 damage to their attack each round with flurry of blows.
And the Hexblade casts Spirit Shroud to add up to 3D8 radiant (or necrotic or cold) damage to its attacks (1D8 per hit) per round for a minute (ten rounds). The Paladin can add up to 14D8 and the Hexblade, potentially, can add 30D8. But then the Hexblade is really a primary caster that plays in melee.
So, having run some numbers, I'm going to say that the Monk is not too bad. The big numbers for Fighter and Paladin start to arrive when they're able to stack Great Weapon Master and Pole Arm Master for potentially an extra 30 damage a round. Monks can't do that because they can't count weapons with the heavy or two-handed property as their Monk weapons (except Kensei using longbows). Their AC is stat dependent, not equipment dependent (magic items excepted) so they are bound to spending most of their ASIs on stat improvements. That's okay because there aren't that many feats that benefit them anyway. Maybe sharpshooter on a Kensei? Like I mentioned earlier, giving Monk an extra ASI, and twice as much ki, would probably go a long way to bringing the base class in line with the others.
I had a 2nd level warlock who at least tied the monk... Actually the 10 min oof BA dash would be 100 rounds so easy more than what a 2nd monk could do.
Once you get higher level fly would take over and avoid all issues.... You can fly 1ft off the ground and avoid just about anything.
Need to climb a wall? Spider Climb!
Need to stun a target? How about the whole room? Hypnotic Pattern!
My major thing is that monks usually solve a problem that either never existed or is just bested by magic.
This is a core issue for martial classes in general but the monk suffers more because they are just good at a lot but not great at one thing....
In an all martial group I could see the monk shine ... But I've never been in one because magic is just too fun for a group to turn down
Agreement with the extra ki.
I would make it WIS mod ki per short rest.
I would also give free uses of subclass based features per day equal to PB.
The big numbers for Fighter and Paladin start to arrive when they're able to stack Great Weapon Master and Pole Arm Master for potentially an extra 30 damage a round.
1.) Monks get stunning fist
2.) Monks are going to be attacking the enemy's rear line, not the tanks the straight melee types will be fighting
A 2nd level Warlock gets to cast two spells per short rest and has 3 spells known. One of those will be Expeditious Retreat. What will the other one be?
After you cast ER, what are you going to do?
Run after the kobold?
A monk has 2 ki at that point... So what's your point here?
Like if the DM keeps tossing "you have to run to catch those guys!" Scenarios why not pick the spell that makes you better at it?
You can out run the Kobold and Agonizing blast then repelling blast them back or just kill them.
Damage wise your doing as good as anyone with d10+CHA damage.
Your scenarios seem to be "you are by yourself and have to run!" Or "Your by yourself and are tied up!"
I only played 5e for like 4 years at this point but I've literally never been in that scenario.....
Like if your DM is splitting the party so much I would be having a serious Convo with them about how dnd is a team game.
My point was, and is, that Monks don't do anything better than anyone else to the extent that I would favor them over any other class/race mix.
'I like them because they do lots of damage.' Not really.
'I like them because they have a High AC.' Nope, we've seen those numbers too.
'I like them because they're mobile.' I'm back to the Tabaxi Gloomstalker Ranger with the Mobility Feat. The only thing I can't do is run on water and up walls which for me is niche enough to not matter.
'I like them because they're really flavorful.' Okay, NOW we can talk because they ARE really flavorful. Now could we make them just a wee bit more effective?
Note that just because I feel this way about the Monk does NOT mean that I don't feel this way about other classes or subclasses as well. We've all heard and seen the horror that was the Beastmaster Ranger. The Berzerker Barb is bad because of one trait and that's the Exhaustion that comes from Rageing. And, by the way, it's not just the martial classes that have issues. Has anyone tried to run a Necromancer lately? The rules for those SUCK!
According to polls taken from somewhere, most D&D games end at around lvl 14-15. So...we're never going to see those really cool capstone abilities then? It's no wonder people play fighters to 11-12 and then multiclass...the last Attack is irrelevant. Personally, I think that many of the classes and subs need a balance pass.
Why is everyone running to Tashs's so they can essentially create their own race and class traits? Maybe because some of them are terrible by comparison?
I'm actually putting together a Youtube channel that will focus on D&D characters from 1-8 because IMHO if it takes longer than that for your character to come online then you're using a lot of the character's career waiting for the next great thing. I'm going to try and make the characters effective but I'm also going to provide lynchpins for a backstory because for me optimizing the character is secondary to having fun. In that regard, I'm not going to make every character a multiclass with 2 levels in Warlock just because it's effective, but if I'm NOT taking the big hits, or dealing the big damage, or using my piles of Skills, then I want to be doing SOMETHING.
I'm still waiting to see your character. You've already been given scenarios.
And at eleventh level anything left standing with half its hit points after the fireball, and the BBEG after getting hit with the fireball, tossed up in the air and forced to make an acrobatics check to land on its feet or fall prone after taking 2d6 falling damage. There isn’t much need for ki after a 2 round nova.
Fireball is amazing when you get it but it's not so amazing at level 11.
A lot of stuff at that level is getting 100+ HP so it's not as great as it was at level 5 when the wizard got it.
Per the DMG CR 11 creatures have roughly 220 HP..... So that 26 fire damage is pretty weak sauce for a "nova"
Plus at that point the wizard has Animate Objects which justs demolishes so much with average damage well over what you can expect for fireball and it lasts for a lot longer.
https://thinkdm.org/2020/07/11/animate-objects/
Monks do not have nova potential at all ... It's just not in their makeup.
The best nova monk build is kensei Archer and even then you are better off with fighter Archer at 11th level.