I wasn't the one who brought up how Way of the Four Elements Monk could expend (nearly) all its ki for three glorious turns of casting fly, fireball, and water whip.
I play Warlocks (specifically Hexblades) so I'm used to operating with an extremely limited resource (spell slots) but I can still choose not to use them and still be effective. Either with agonizing blast boosted eldritch blast, or being able to summon +1 magical weapons from level 3. The existence of the double-bladed scimitar allows me to weaponize my bonus attack in the same way that Monks do, so at level 5 with thirsting blade I can average 27 magical weapon damage a round without expending resources. Assuming Monks have their dexterity at 18 thanks to an ASI or half feat at level 4 and are using a D10 weapon like a longsword or warhammer (thanks to a racial proficiency or Kensei) they also average 27 damage, but nonmagical at that point. A Paladin or Fighter that's reached this point and taken polearm master at level 4 with a glaive, they won't have been able to boost their strength beyond 16 or 17 (obviously variant human excepted) and that will make their average damage 23 at level five, again non-magical.
In terms of AC, I use mage armor on my Warlock so his AC is 16 without magic armour. The monk has 18 dex and started with 16 wisdom, so is AC17, and it's likely both the Fighter and Paladin have found 200 gold for splint plate at level 5 for AC17, or AC18 with the defensive fighting style, which is probably the best choice for a polearm fighter. In terms of HP, I tend to assume that 14 constitution is a normal starting level, but then I typically have two 16s in my primary stats. At level 5 with D8 HP and using averages the Warlock and the Monk would have 38HP and the D10 Paladin and Fighter would have 45.
I am going to go out there and say that in terms of damage and durability the Monk is okay in comparison to a Fighter or Paladin, as long as nobody is expending any resources. Divine Smite (2 shots at 3D8 and 4 shots at 2D8 do create a large damage spike) or Battlemaster Maneuvers (4D8s at level 5). Monk can expend one of their five ki points to add an average of 8 damage to their attack each round with flurry of blows.
And the Hexblade casts Spirit Shroud to add up to 3D8 radiant (or necrotic or cold) damage to its attacks (1D8 per hit) per round for a minute (ten rounds). The Paladin can add up to 14D8 and the Hexblade, potentially, can add 30D8. But then the Hexblade is really a primary caster that plays in melee.
So, having run some numbers, I'm going to say that the Monk is not too bad. The big numbers for Fighter and Paladin start to arrive when they're able to stack Great Weapon Master and Pole Arm Master for potentially an extra 30 damage a round. Monks can't do that because they can't count weapons with the heavy or two-handed property as their Monk weapons (except Kensei using longbows). Their AC is stat dependent, not equipment dependent (magic items excepted) so they are bound to spending most of their ASIs on stat improvements. That's okay because there aren't that many feats that benefit them anyway. Maybe sharpshooter on a Kensei? Like I mentioned earlier, giving Monk an extra ASI, and twice as much ki, would probably go a long way to bringing the base class in line with the others.
Agreement with the extra ki.
I would make it WIS mod ki per short rest.
I would also give free uses of subclass based features per day equal to PB.
If the argument is going to switch from "Monks are terrible" to "Wizards dominate the game at high levels," then I'm inclined to agree.
I had a 2nd level warlock who at least tied the monk... Actually the 10 min oof BA dash would be 100 rounds so easy more than what a 2nd monk could do.
Once you get higher level fly would take over and avoid all issues.... You can fly 1ft off the ground and avoid just about anything.
Need to climb a wall? Spider Climb!
Need to stun a target? How about the whole room? Hypnotic Pattern!
My major thing is that monks usually solve a problem that either never existed or is just bested by magic.
This is a core issue for martial classes in general but the monk suffers more because they are just good at a lot but not great at one thing....
In an all martial group I could see the monk shine ... But I've never been in one because magic is just too fun for a group to turn down
If the argument is going to switch from "Monks are terrible" to "Wizards dominate the game at high levels," then I'm inclined to agree.
I had a 2nd level warlock who at least tied the monk... Actually the 10 min oof BA dash would be 100 rounds so easy more than what a 2nd monk could do.
Once you get higher level fly would take over and avoid all issues.... You can fly 1ft off the ground and avoid just about anything.
Need to climb a wall? Spider Climb!
Need to stun a target? How about the whole room? Hypnotic Pattern!
My major thing is that monks usually solve a problem that either never existed or is just bested by magic.
This is a core issue for martial classes in general but the monk suffers more because they are just good at a lot but not great at one thing....
In an all martial group I could see the monk shine ... But I've never been in one because magic is just too fun for a group to turn down
If the argument is going to switch from "Monks are terrible" to "Wizards dominate the game at high levels," then I'm inclined to agree.
I had a 2nd level warlock who at least tied the monk... Actually the 10 min oof BA dash would be 100 rounds so easy more than what a 2nd monk could do.
Once you get higher level fly would take over and avoid all issues.... You can fly 1ft off the ground and avoid just about anything.
Need to climb a wall? Spider Climb!
Need to stun a target? How about the whole room? Hypnotic Pattern!
My major thing is that monks usually solve a problem that either never existed or is just bested by magic.
This is a core issue for martial classes in general but the monk suffers more because they are just good at a lot but not great at one thing....
In an all martial group I could see the monk shine ... But I've never been in one because magic is just too fun for a group to turn down
If the argument is going to switch from "Monks are terrible" to "Wizards dominate the game at high levels," then I'm inclined to agree.
I had a 2nd level warlock who at least tied the monk... Actually the 10 min oof BA dash would be 100 rounds so easy more than what a 2nd monk could do.
Once you get higher level fly would take over and avoid all issues.... You can fly 1ft off the ground and avoid just about anything.
Need to climb a wall? Spider Climb!
Need to stun a target? How about the whole room? Hypnotic Pattern!
My major thing is that monks usually solve a problem that either never existed or is just bested by magic.
This is a core issue for martial classes in general but the monk suffers more because they are just good at a lot but not great at one thing....
In an all martial group I could see the monk shine ... But I've never been in one because magic is just too fun for a group to turn down
A 2nd level Warlock gets to cast two spells per short rest and has 3 spells known. One of those will be Expeditious Retreat. What will the other one be?
After you cast ER, what are you going to do?
Run after the kobold?
A monk has 2 ki at that point... So what's your point here?
Like if the DM keeps tossing "you have to run to catch those guys!" Scenarios why not pick the spell that makes you better at it?
You can out run the Kobold and Agonizing blast then repelling blast them back or just kill them.
Damage wise your doing as good as anyone with d10+CHA damage.
Your scenarios seem to be "you are by yourself and have to run!" Or "Your by yourself and are tied up!"
I only played 5e for like 4 years at this point but I've literally never been in that scenario.....
Like if your DM is splitting the party so much I would be having a serious Convo with them about how dnd is a team game.
At least you’ve shifted your goal posts slightly. It’s now gone from “it’s awful at everything” to now being “it has a niche”. I can make a Wizard that does everything, but better. But that’s not really the objective of the post and further diverges from the discussion. It’s attempting to draw attention to a perceived weakness with in the community.
A monk is more than just mobility and stunning/flurry blows. And reducing it to that is why people fail to understand it. Or how to use subclasses. Does it have some short comings? Absolutely. But nothing as drastic as your posts say it is. It just needs some tweaking.
My point was, and is, that Monks don't do anything better than anyone else to the extent that I would favor them over any other class/race mix.
'I like them because they do lots of damage.' Not really.
'I like them because they have a High AC.' Nope, we've seen those numbers too.
'I like them because they're mobile.' I'm back to the Tabaxi Gloomstalker Ranger with the Mobility Feat. The only thing I can't do is run on water and up walls which for me is niche enough to not matter.
'I like them because they're really flavorful.' Okay, NOW we can talk because they ARE really flavorful. Now could we make them just a wee bit more effective?
Note that just because I feel this way about the Monk does NOT mean that I don't feel this way about other classes or subclasses as well. We've all heard and seen the horror that was the Beastmaster Ranger. The Berzerker Barb is bad because of one trait and that's the Exhaustion that comes from Rageing. And, by the way, it's not just the martial classes that have issues. Has anyone tried to run a Necromancer lately? The rules for those SUCK!
According to polls taken from somewhere, most D&D games end at around lvl 14-15. So...we're never going to see those really cool capstone abilities then? It's no wonder people play fighters to 11-12 and then multiclass...the last Attack is irrelevant. Personally, I think that many of the classes and subs need a balance pass.
Why is everyone running to Tashs's so they can essentially create their own race and class traits? Maybe because some of them are terrible by comparison?
I'm actually putting together a Youtube channel that will focus on D&D characters from 1-8 because IMHO if it takes longer than that for your character to come online then you're using a lot of the character's career waiting for the next great thing. I'm going to try and make the characters effective but I'm also going to provide lynchpins for a backstory because for me optimizing the character is secondary to having fun. In that regard, I'm not going to make every character a multiclass with 2 levels in Warlock just because it's effective, but if I'm NOT taking the big hits, or dealing the big damage, or using my piles of Skills, then I want to be doing SOMETHING.
A lot of “maths are on my side” with no maths backing it up.
It was nice of treatmonk to pay us a visit though.
PS monks can cast fly too. Paired with water whip and fireball is amazing to witness.
Certainly. At 11th level you can spend 10 ki to fly, cast one fireball, and use water whip, leaving you with one ki for the rest of the fight.
Meanwhile an 11th level Wizard can expend one third level spell slot to fly, and another third level to cast fireball. Granted there doesn't seem to be a Wizard equivalent of water whip, but the following turn the Wizard will still have four first, three second, one third, three fourth, two fifth, and one sixth level spell slots remaining, plus cantrips (doing 3d8 or 3d10 damage) if they ever run out of spell slots.
If the Monk had twice as much ki per level as it does it might be a decent class but as it stands it just burns up its resources too quickly.
And at eleventh level anything left standing with half its hit points after the fireball, and the BBEG after getting hit with the fireball, tossed up in the air and forced to make an acrobatics check to land on its feet or fall prone after taking 2d6 falling damage. There isn’t much need for ki after a 2 round nova.
A lot of “maths are on my side” with no maths backing it up.
It was nice of treatmonk to pay us a visit though.
PS monks can cast fly too. Paired with water whip and fireball is amazing to witness.
Certainly. At 11th level you can spend 10 ki to fly, cast one fireball, and use water whip, leaving you with one ki for the rest of the fight.
Meanwhile an 11th level Wizard can expend one third level spell slot to fly, and another third level to cast fireball. Granted there doesn't seem to be a Wizard equivalent of water whip, but the following turn the Wizard will still have four first, three second, one third, three fourth, two fifth, and one sixth level spell slots remaining, plus cantrips (doing 3d8 or 3d10 damage) if they ever run out of spell slots.
If the Monk had twice as much ki per level as it does it might be a decent class but as it stands it just burns up its resources too quickly.
And at eleventh level anything left standing with half its hit points after the fireball, and the BBEG after getting hit with the fireball, tossed up in the air and forced to make an acrobatics check to land on its feet or fall prone after taking 2d6 falling damage. There isn’t much need for ki after a 2 round nova.
Fireball is amazing when you get it but it's not so amazing at level 11.
A lot of stuff at that level is getting 100+ HP so it's not as great as it was at level 5 when the wizard got it.
Per the DMG CR 11 creatures have roughly 220 HP..... So that 26 fire damage is pretty weak sauce for a "nova"
Plus at that point the wizard has Animate Objects which justs demolishes so much with average damage well over what you can expect for fireball and it lasts for a lot longer.
If the argument is going to switch from "Monks are terrible" to "Wizards dominate the game at high levels," then I'm inclined to agree.
I had a 2nd level warlock who at least tied the monk... Actually the 10 min oof BA dash would be 100 rounds so easy more than what a 2nd monk could do.
Once you get higher level fly would take over and avoid all issues.... You can fly 1ft off the ground and avoid just about anything.
Need to climb a wall? Spider Climb!
Need to stun a target? How about the whole room? Hypnotic Pattern!
My major thing is that monks usually solve a problem that either never existed or is just bested by magic.
This is a core issue for martial classes in general but the monk suffers more because they are just good at a lot but not great at one thing....
In an all martial group I could see the monk shine ... But I've never been in one because magic is just too fun for a group to turn down
If the argument is going to switch from "Monks are terrible" to "Wizards dominate the game at high levels," then I'm inclined to agree.
I had a 2nd level warlock who at least tied the monk... Actually the 10 min oof BA dash would be 100 rounds so easy more than what a 2nd monk could do.
Once you get higher level fly would take over and avoid all issues.... You can fly 1ft off the ground and avoid just about anything.
Need to climb a wall? Spider Climb!
Need to stun a target? How about the whole room? Hypnotic Pattern!
My major thing is that monks usually solve a problem that either never existed or is just bested by magic.
This is a core issue for martial classes in general but the monk suffers more because they are just good at a lot but not great at one thing....
In an all martial group I could see the monk shine ... But I've never been in one because magic is just too fun for a group to turn down
If the argument is going to switch from "Monks are terrible" to "Wizards dominate the game at high levels," then I'm inclined to agree.
I had a 2nd level warlock who at least tied the monk... Actually the 10 min oof BA dash would be 100 rounds so easy more than what a 2nd monk could do.
Once you get higher level fly would take over and avoid all issues.... You can fly 1ft off the ground and avoid just about anything.
Need to climb a wall? Spider Climb!
Need to stun a target? How about the whole room? Hypnotic Pattern!
My major thing is that monks usually solve a problem that either never existed or is just bested by magic.
This is a core issue for martial classes in general but the monk suffers more because they are just good at a lot but not great at one thing....
In an all martial group I could see the monk shine ... But I've never been in one because magic is just too fun for a group to turn down
If the argument is going to switch from "Monks are terrible" to "Wizards dominate the game at high levels," then I'm inclined to agree.
I had a 2nd level warlock who at least tied the monk... Actually the 10 min oof BA dash would be 100 rounds so easy more than what a 2nd monk could do.
Once you get higher level fly would take over and avoid all issues.... You can fly 1ft off the ground and avoid just about anything.
Need to climb a wall? Spider Climb!
Need to stun a target? How about the whole room? Hypnotic Pattern!
My major thing is that monks usually solve a problem that either never existed or is just bested by magic.
This is a core issue for martial classes in general but the monk suffers more because they are just good at a lot but not great at one thing....
In an all martial group I could see the monk shine ... But I've never been in one because magic is just too fun for a group to turn down
A 2nd level Warlock gets to cast two spells per short rest and has 3 spells known. One of those will be Expeditious Retreat. What will the other one be?
After you cast ER, what are you going to do?
Run after the kobold?
A monk has 2 ki at that point... So what's your point here?
Like if the DM keeps tossing "you have to run to catch those guys!" Scenarios why not pick the spell that makes you better at it?
You can out run the Kobold and Agonizing blast then repelling blast them back or just kill them.
Damage wise your doing as good as anyone with d10+CHA damage.
Your scenarios seem to be "you are by yourself and have to run!" Or "Your by yourself and are tied up!"
I only played 5e for like 4 years at this point but I've literally never been in that scenario.....
Like if your DM is splitting the party so much I would be having a serious Convo with them about how dnd is a team game.
You haven't said that we should restrict the scenarios we present to something that favors the other class. Until you do so, you've been presented scenarios.
You've been gaming for four years. I've been gaming for four decades. No doubt that I've seen a bit more of DnD than you have.
Since you aren't going to follow through on your own proposal, how about you just put forth a 2nd level character that you believe completely overshadows a Monk?
Warlock... Hexblade v. Human with polearm master at level 1
Boom done.
Also honestly who cares about 2nd level? So you really spend any amount of time there? I have never had a character stay in level 2 for more than a session ... Much less enough time for these ridiculous "gotcha" scenarios.
Warlock... Hexblade v. Human with polearm master at level 1
Boom done.
Also honestly who cares about 2nd level? So you really spend any amount of time there? I have never had a character stay in level 2 for more than a session ... Much less enough time for these ridiculous "gotcha" scenarios.
Write it up
I'm With Wren. Write it up.
Because you don't understand level 2 like you think you do. you've outright admitted even when you are level 2 it's for like a session. Not a realistic period but an accelerated period. So you've got this idea of what you think works So write your character up. Because just simply stating hexblade V Human with Polearm Master doesn't prove anything. It's not the Gotcha you think it is. It's not better. it can't even do more damage than a Monk can at level 2. So what arbitrary personal measuring stick are you using to decide that your unwritten up build actually is better than a monk in any way?
Warlock... Hexblade v. Human with polearm master at level 1
Boom done.
Also honestly who cares about 2nd level? So you really spend any amount of time there? I have never had a character stay in level 2 for more than a session ... Much less enough time for these ridiculous "gotcha" scenarios.
Write it up
I'm With Wren. Write it up.
Because you don't understand level 2 like you think you do. you've outright admitted even when you are level 2 it's for like a session. Not a realistic period but an accelerated period. So you've got this idea of what you think works So write your character up. Because just simply stating hexblade V Human with Polearm Master doesn't prove anything. It's not the Gotcha you think it is. It's not better. it can't even do more damage than a Monk can at level 2. So what arbitrary personal measuring stick are you using to decide that your unwritten up build actually is better than a monk in any way?
You have better AC (18 with scale and shield)
You have the same damage spear (action d6+3 then BA d4 +3) or one less damage if you give the monk a d8.
You have Hex and Hexblade curse for nova damage. Which if you count each for at least 3 rounds you are meeting or beating the monk.
You have EB + Agonizing blast for ranged up to 120ft which is more than the monk.
A lot of “maths are on my side” with no maths backing it up.
It was nice of treatmonk to pay us a visit though.
PS monks can cast fly too. Paired with water whip and fireball is amazing to witness.
Certainly. At 11th level you can spend 10 ki to fly, cast one fireball, and use water whip, leaving you with one ki for the rest of the fight.
Meanwhile an 11th level Wizard can expend one third level spell slot to fly, and another third level to cast fireball. Granted there doesn't seem to be a Wizard equivalent of water whip, but the following turn the Wizard will still have four first, three second, one third, three fourth, two fifth, and one sixth level spell slots remaining, plus cantrips (doing 3d8 or 3d10 damage) if they ever run out of spell slots.
If the Monk had twice as much ki per level as it does it might be a decent class but as it stands it just burns up its resources too quickly.
(Also, for whoever kept saying it earlier, Monk cannot use a shield)
This really doesn't seem like much worth arguing about. A run-of-the-mill dexterity based fighter can start the game doing D8+3 damage at 150 feet with a longbow, and D8+3 damage in melee with a rapier and shield (while still being AC16 with the shield and leather armour). The monk with 16 dexterity and wisdom can equal that AC, and also do D8+3 with his monk weapon spear, but without the range, and the monk has to be a bit more careful levelling up, where the fighter can just grab whatever they want. Especially given their extra ASIs. Monk as a class really need some extra ASIs to keep up with the game. Rogue gets one, fighter gets two, why not monk?
This math is actually wrong.
Primarily because it's turning Ki into an All Day Resource like Spells. The Truth is a 4 elements monk could Cast Fly, Fireball, and Water Whip for 10 Ki yes, This part is true.
But this is not actually the limit of his Ki. And it's only a half caster. So your making a disingenuous comparsion. The Wizard has so many more spells because once they run out. It has not much else.
But here's the truth of that monk. He can cast Fly, Fireball, and Waterwhip, Costing him 10 of 11 ki. Do something like flurry of Blows with the 11th Ki to have 4 martial attacks on something for a round.
And then when combat is done he can rest and get all of those Ki back. The Wizard can get some spell slots back but again. that's litterally all they have. But most other spell casters don't have that luxury. So when they rest they don't get anything back. So it's not only a full caster as a bad example against a half-caster but it's also a cherry picked example because it's one of the only ones that would get part of those spell slots back. But not enough to actually get 2 3rd level slots back at level 11. So do you want the fly spell back or the fireball back? Because As a 4 elements Monk. I'm getting all 11 ki Back. Which means I get the Fireball, and the Fly spell, and the Water whip to all do again in another battle today. And at the next Short Rest. i'm getting it all back again. Because the Truth of the matter is that in the average book written day. They likely have 3 times as much ki. In the seemingly more average table top day with just a couple fights hours apart. Monks still have 22 ki to spend. Unless you've specifically doing things all that time in between that never once counted as a short rest, But that 11 Ki at level 11 is not really all of a monks ki usually for a day. It's just the ki for one chunk of the day.
But even regardless of getting all that Ki back. I'm still a monk. I'm still going to be out there dodging fireballs for no damage. Potentially shrugging off wisdom Based spells, as often as not for no effect, And punching things bloody. Nothing That a Wizard can actually do. They can potentially use up some of their spell slots to try and imitate some of that. But it's limited in how many times they can do that.
And I'd have to double check but I do believe hte one mentioning the monk using a shield was actually one of them just blanket hating on the monk and how it sucks. Trying to say they needed the shield for their AC Desipte the fact that their AC is fairly competitive without it.
Warlock... Hexblade v. Human with polearm master at level 1
Boom done.
Also honestly who cares about 2nd level? So you really spend any amount of time there? I have never had a character stay in level 2 for more than a session ... Much less enough time for these ridiculous "gotcha" scenarios.
Write it up
I'm With Wren. Write it up.
Because you don't understand level 2 like you think you do. you've outright admitted even when you are level 2 it's for like a session. Not a realistic period but an accelerated period. So you've got this idea of what you think works So write your character up. Because just simply stating hexblade V Human with Polearm Master doesn't prove anything. It's not the Gotcha you think it is. It's not better. it can't even do more damage than a Monk can at level 2. So what arbitrary personal measuring stick are you using to decide that your unwritten up build actually is better than a monk in any way?
You have better AC (18 with scale and shield)
You have the same damage spear (action d6+3 then BA d4 +3) or one less damage if you give the monk a d8.
You have Hex and Hexblade curse for nova damage. Which if you count each for at least 3 rounds you are meeting or beating the monk.
You have EB + Agonizing blast for ranged up to 120ft which is more than the monk.
You can get Retreat for BA dash for 10 min
It is not really that complicated....
And your Basis for having the Scale mail and shield is what? That's a 60 gold investment right there and your Warlock didn't start with either of them. And do you have the 14 Dex? Does that mean that you've Neglected your Con to get that one more point of AC? So your Spells and Other Affects that rely on your concentration have a bigger chance of faltering, Such as Expiditious retreat, And hex? Two of the spells your relying on for the build.
And The Range on EB may be more than the monk. But the Damage is not.
Have you left yourself a spell slot to do Expeditious Retreat to get the Bonus Action Dash while your at it? or did something else get used? Like Having to put up Hex again after your concentration was broken? You only have 2 level 1 spell slots and 3 known spells to work with.
*The Hexblade can run faster, but the Monk has better manueverability (Acrobatics and Step of the Wind, he can jump, climb, move across uneven surfaces such as rooftops, etc. better)
*The Monk can consistently do more damage per round without having to recharge with short rests
*The Hexblade can do more spike damage
*The Hexblade has better AC and hp)
*The Monk can do better last ditch defense
Conclusion, both classes are good. The Hexblade does not dominate the Monk.
I would disagree and you could build the warlock to have better stealth... I just choose to have a higher WIS but it's not absolutely needed
Consistently they are doing the same damage....1 point is hardly enough to say it's meaningful.
Overall the warlock is better at 2 and only gets better with spell and invocation options
Also last ditch defense I could give the warlock shield spell for +5 AC in a pinch.
You also forgot:
Warlock has better ranged option
Warlock can overcome non magical bps with said ranged option
you could build the warlock to have better stealth
If you'd like to present a different character, feel free to do so
Consistently they are doing the same damage....1 point is hardly enough to say it's meaningful.
Your spear is doing 1d6-1 vs my staff which is doing 1d6+3
Overall the warlock is better at 2
That's been objectively disprovem
Overall the warlock is better at 2
Again, if you'd like to present an alternative character, feel free to do so
Spear is supposed to be d6+3 and it's fixed now... The BA polearm attack is d4+3 but ddb incorrectly has it using STR. They both use CHA thanks to hexblade
So 1 point difference... And that's assuming you actually use the d8 from the staff
You awake to discover that you are naked except for a pair of adamantium manacles in a dimly lit room. The room is 30ft by 30ft square. You are held dangling suspended at the end of a 10ft adamantium chain. Your feet are five feet above the ground. Beneath you is a 10ft diameter pit of undeterminable depth and impenetrable darkness. Lined along the walls are hooded cultists chanting in Undercommon. From the way they pronounce their words, you think they are probably not human or demihuman. In the distance, you hear the slow drip of cave water and the walls are covered in slime. An odd smell fills the air, you guess maybe mollusk? Maybe squid?"
THIS is your idea of a 'battlefield?' Man, you must be rough as a DM.
Seriously, man if you wanna win that bad, take it. It's not worth the time.
Curious how a Monk would do any better but whatever.
you could build the warlock to have better stealth
If you'd like to present a different character, feel free to do so
Consistently they are doing the same damage....1 point is hardly enough to say it's meaningful.
Your spear is doing 1d6-1 vs my staff which is doing 1d6+3
He's using Hexblade with Hex Warrior to make his attack and attribute damage stat charisma. this would give him a +3. But it would still only be 1d6+3 vs 1d8+3 and 1d4+3 assuming that all your doing is attacking. Which means he's doing an avg of 6 damage and the monk is doing an avg of 12 damage.
Even if he includes Hexblades Curse and Casting hex using up 1 of his 2 spell slots he's only managing avg 12 damage, On the turns that he can maintain both features on one target. So he's basically spending all he has to do the same damge at level 2 as the monk is spending doing nothing at all. I think I saw that he had Armor of Agathys as well but that requires a turn to set up. It would up his damage all out to 17 for maybe 2 rounds at most. But again. It's spending all of his class and subclass resources and it's not enough damage to overcome the monk who is just attacking.
And this is what i have meant all along by things not being what people claim they are or what they might look like at a glance.
For Example he's needing to do a specialized build to attempt to outdo just any monk. NOt even a subclass monk. Just any monk to try and claim he's better. Have more than one enemy And/or the fight lasts more than a few rounds then he can't do it. On top of that. t his best he's doing 17 damage for 2 rounds. I haven't even addressed the two ki points of the Monk yet. Both Ki points could be spent on flurry of blows. This means an additional 5 avg damage a round compared to the 5 flat damage of AoA. This means the average damage of the Monk is 17 as well for those two rounds of combat (all assuming AoA didn't get wiped out in one round just to re-iterate yet again.) Which means that with just basic resources. The Base Monk is doing as much at level 2 as the Hexblade Warlock is doing including using subclass features.
As a side note. He could use Eldritch Blast to get 1 more Damage than the base monk using only base monk things in the Warlock's all out scenerio. But this has a Caveat. The Warlock has to somehow get hit to trigger AoA's damage and yet still get out of melee range to not suffer disadvantage on Eldritch Blast. So there is a decent chance that either AoA does not get used or Eldritch Blast may not connect which would lower the damage by much more than not getting the AoA damage. So while it can deal more damage it's actually the less favorable option. If it's going directly up against the monk in this scenario it would also mean the likelyhood of even more damage from the Monk in the form of an AoO if he does try to both get AoA damage and still use Eldritch Blast without disadvantage. But then on top of that. 1 damage is hardly meaningful in Optimus own words So that basically means that as far as he's concerned the Eldritch Blast option isn't worth it.
you could build the warlock to have better stealth
If you'd like to present a different character, feel free to do so
Consistently they are doing the same damage....1 point is hardly enough to say it's meaningful.
Your spear is doing 1d6-1 vs my staff which is doing 1d6+3
He's using Hexblade with Hex Warrior to make his attack and attribute damage stat charisma. this would give him a +3. But it would still only be 1d6+3 vs 1d8+3 and 1d4+3 assuming that all your doing is attacking. Which means he's doing an avg of 6 damage and the monk is doing an avg of 12 damage.
Even if he includes Hexblades Curse and Casting hex using up 1 of his 2 spell slots he's only managing avg 12 damage, On the turns that he can maintain both features on one target. So he's basically spending all he has to do the same damge at level 2 as the monk is spending doing nothing at all. I think I saw that he had Armor of Agathys as well but that requires a turn to set up. It would up his damage all out to 17 for maybe 2 rounds at most. But again. It's spending all of his class and subclass resources and it's not enough damage to overcome the monk who is just attacking.
And this is what i have meant all along by things not being what people claim they are or what they might look like at a glance.
For Example he's needing to do a specialized build to attempt to outdo just any monk. NOt even a subclass monk. Just any monk to try and claim he's better. Have more than one enemy And/or the fight lasts more than a few rounds then he can't do it. On top of that. t his best he's doing 17 damage for 2 rounds. I haven't even addressed the two ki points of the Monk yet. Both Ki points could be spent on flurry of blows. This means an additional 5 avg damage a round compared to the 5 flat damage of AoA. This means the average damage of the Monk is 17 as well for those two rounds of combat (all assuming AoA didn't get wiped out in one round just to re-iterate yet again.) Which means that with just basic resources. The Base Monk is doing as much at level 2 as the Hexblade Warlock is doing including using subclass features.
As a side note. He could use Eldritch Blast to get 1 more Damage than the base monk using only base monk things in the Warlock's all out scenerio. But this has a Caveat. The Warlock has to somehow get hit to trigger AoA's damage and yet still get out of melee range to not suffer disadvantage on Eldritch Blast. So there is a decent chance that either AoA does not get used or Eldritch Blast may not connect which would lower the damage by much more than not getting the AoA damage. So while it can deal more damage it's actually the less favorable option. If it's going directly up against the monk in this scenario it would also mean the likelyhood of even more damage from the Monk in the form of an AoO if he does try to both get AoA damage and still use Eldritch Blast without disadvantage. But then on top of that. 1 damage is hardly meaningful in Optimus own words So that basically means that as far as he's concerned the Eldritch Blast option isn't worth it.
No...
D6+3 attack and then d4+3 bonus action attack for warlock
Vs.
Monk d8+3 action then d4+3 bonus action
So 1 point of difference between the two.
If you start to incorporate ki then you are no longer comparing apples to apples.
And I shifted attributes and they now have the exact same stealth modifer and the warlock still has a better AC (16 vs 17)
I got the impression that you were going to make some changes to address the Monk's stealth advantage and last ditch defense advantage.
Let me know when you are ready for me to re-evaluate.
He's shifted to point buy to get himself 2 16's. Don't know if that's in your agreement or not.
But then he's the one complaining that my mention of ki and spells was not comparing apples to apples.
I simply said let's compare baseline to baseline.
If you want to get into the hex and Hexblade curse you would have to stipulate how many fights with how many rounds against what ACs to really determine DPR.
If you don't want to get into that granularity then just accept the baseline damage for both and move on
If you start to incorporate ki then you are no longer comparing apples to apples.
So, the Hexblade gets to use all the features of his class that he can, but the Monk must essentially tie one arm behind his back elsewise it isn't a fair comparison?
What monk subclass? Oh wait you don't have one yet ...
Agreement with the extra ki.
I would make it WIS mod ki per short rest.
I would also give free uses of subclass based features per day equal to PB.
Run after the kobold?
A monk has 2 ki at that point... So what's your point here?
Like if the DM keeps tossing "you have to run to catch those guys!" Scenarios why not pick the spell that makes you better at it?
You can out run the Kobold and Agonizing blast then repelling blast them back or just kill them.
Damage wise your doing as good as anyone with d10+CHA damage.
Your scenarios seem to be "you are by yourself and have to run!" Or "Your by yourself and are tied up!"
I only played 5e for like 4 years at this point but I've literally never been in that scenario.....
Like if your DM is splitting the party so much I would be having a serious Convo with them about how dnd is a team game.
My point was, and is, that Monks don't do anything better than anyone else to the extent that I would favor them over any other class/race mix.
'I like them because they do lots of damage.' Not really.
'I like them because they have a High AC.' Nope, we've seen those numbers too.
'I like them because they're mobile.' I'm back to the Tabaxi Gloomstalker Ranger with the Mobility Feat. The only thing I can't do is run on water and up walls which for me is niche enough to not matter.
'I like them because they're really flavorful.' Okay, NOW we can talk because they ARE really flavorful. Now could we make them just a wee bit more effective?
Note that just because I feel this way about the Monk does NOT mean that I don't feel this way about other classes or subclasses as well. We've all heard and seen the horror that was the Beastmaster Ranger. The Berzerker Barb is bad because of one trait and that's the Exhaustion that comes from Rageing. And, by the way, it's not just the martial classes that have issues. Has anyone tried to run a Necromancer lately? The rules for those SUCK!
According to polls taken from somewhere, most D&D games end at around lvl 14-15. So...we're never going to see those really cool capstone abilities then? It's no wonder people play fighters to 11-12 and then multiclass...the last Attack is irrelevant. Personally, I think that many of the classes and subs need a balance pass.
Why is everyone running to Tashs's so they can essentially create their own race and class traits? Maybe because some of them are terrible by comparison?
I'm actually putting together a Youtube channel that will focus on D&D characters from 1-8 because IMHO if it takes longer than that for your character to come online then you're using a lot of the character's career waiting for the next great thing. I'm going to try and make the characters effective but I'm also going to provide lynchpins for a backstory because for me optimizing the character is secondary to having fun. In that regard, I'm not going to make every character a multiclass with 2 levels in Warlock just because it's effective, but if I'm NOT taking the big hits, or dealing the big damage, or using my piles of Skills, then I want to be doing SOMETHING.
And at eleventh level anything left standing with half its hit points after the fireball, and the BBEG after getting hit with the fireball, tossed up in the air and forced to make an acrobatics check to land on its feet or fall prone after taking 2d6 falling damage. There isn’t much need for ki after a 2 round nova.
Fireball is amazing when you get it but it's not so amazing at level 11.
A lot of stuff at that level is getting 100+ HP so it's not as great as it was at level 5 when the wizard got it.
Per the DMG CR 11 creatures have roughly 220 HP..... So that 26 fire damage is pretty weak sauce for a "nova"
Plus at that point the wizard has Animate Objects which justs demolishes so much with average damage well over what you can expect for fireball and it lasts for a lot longer.
https://thinkdm.org/2020/07/11/animate-objects/
Monks do not have nova potential at all ... It's just not in their makeup.
The best nova monk build is kensei Archer and even then you are better off with fighter Archer at 11th level.
Warlock... Hexblade v. Human with polearm master at level 1
Boom done.
Also honestly who cares about 2nd level? So you really spend any amount of time there? I have never had a character stay in level 2 for more than a session ... Much less enough time for these ridiculous "gotcha" scenarios.
I'm With Wren. Write it up.
Because you don't understand level 2 like you think you do. you've outright admitted even when you are level 2 it's for like a session. Not a realistic period but an accelerated period. So you've got this idea of what you think works So write your character up. Because just simply stating hexblade V Human with Polearm Master doesn't prove anything. It's not the Gotcha you think it is. It's not better. it can't even do more damage than a Monk can at level 2. So what arbitrary personal measuring stick are you using to decide that your unwritten up build actually is better than a monk in any way?
You have better AC (18 with scale and shield)
You have the same damage spear (action d6+3 then BA d4 +3) or one less damage if you give the monk a d8.
You have Hex and Hexblade curse for nova damage. Which if you count each for at least 3 rounds you are meeting or beating the monk.
You have EB + Agonizing blast for ranged up to 120ft which is more than the monk.
You can get Retreat for BA dash for 10 min
It is not really that complicated....
This math is actually wrong.
Primarily because it's turning Ki into an All Day Resource like Spells. The Truth is a 4 elements monk could Cast Fly, Fireball, and Water Whip for 10 Ki yes, This part is true.
But this is not actually the limit of his Ki. And it's only a half caster. So your making a disingenuous comparsion. The Wizard has so many more spells because once they run out. It has not much else.
But here's the truth of that monk. He can cast Fly, Fireball, and Waterwhip, Costing him 10 of 11 ki. Do something like flurry of Blows with the 11th Ki to have 4 martial attacks on something for a round.
And then when combat is done he can rest and get all of those Ki back. The Wizard can get some spell slots back but again. that's litterally all they have. But most other spell casters don't have that luxury. So when they rest they don't get anything back. So it's not only a full caster as a bad example against a half-caster but it's also a cherry picked example because it's one of the only ones that would get part of those spell slots back. But not enough to actually get 2 3rd level slots back at level 11. So do you want the fly spell back or the fireball back? Because As a 4 elements Monk. I'm getting all 11 ki Back. Which means I get the Fireball, and the Fly spell, and the Water whip to all do again in another battle today. And at the next Short Rest. i'm getting it all back again. Because the Truth of the matter is that in the average book written day. They likely have 3 times as much ki. In the seemingly more average table top day with just a couple fights hours apart. Monks still have 22 ki to spend. Unless you've specifically doing things all that time in between that never once counted as a short rest, But that 11 Ki at level 11 is not really all of a monks ki usually for a day. It's just the ki for one chunk of the day.
But even regardless of getting all that Ki back. I'm still a monk. I'm still going to be out there dodging fireballs for no damage. Potentially shrugging off wisdom Based spells, as often as not for no effect, And punching things bloody. Nothing That a Wizard can actually do. They can potentially use up some of their spell slots to try and imitate some of that. But it's limited in how many times they can do that.
And I'd have to double check but I do believe hte one mentioning the monk using a shield was actually one of them just blanket hating on the monk and how it sucks. Trying to say they needed the shield for their AC Desipte the fact that their AC is fairly competitive without it.
Here's the build:
https://ddb.ac/characters/57692282/rAqvQ1
Also one thing that's better:
False Life. I get 8 THP extra at all times so my HP is better then the monk as well
I would disagree and you could build the warlock to have better stealth... I just choose to have a higher WIS but it's not absolutely needed
Consistently they are doing the same damage....1 point is hardly enough to say it's meaningful.
Overall the warlock is better at 2 and only gets better with spell and invocation options
Also last ditch defense I could give the warlock shield spell for +5 AC in a pinch.
You also forgot:
Warlock has better ranged option
Warlock can overcome non magical bps with said ranged option
Overall I would take the the warlock 9/10 times
Spear is supposed to be d6+3 and it's fixed now... The BA polearm attack is d4+3 but ddb incorrectly has it using STR. They both use CHA thanks to hexblade
So 1 point difference... And that's assuming you actually use the d8 from the staff
"Scenario 1:
You awake to discover that you are naked except for a pair of adamantium manacles in a dimly lit room. The room is 30ft by 30ft square. You are held dangling suspended at the end of a 10ft adamantium chain. Your feet are five feet above the ground. Beneath you is a 10ft diameter pit of undeterminable depth and impenetrable darkness. Lined along the walls are hooded cultists chanting in Undercommon. From the way they pronounce their words, you think they are probably not human or demihuman. In the distance, you hear the slow drip of cave water and the walls are covered in slime. An odd smell fills the air, you guess maybe mollusk? Maybe squid?"
THIS is your idea of a 'battlefield?' Man, you must be rough as a DM.
Seriously, man if you wanna win that bad, take it. It's not worth the time.
Curious how a Monk would do any better but whatever.
Have a nice day.
He's using Hexblade with Hex Warrior to make his attack and attribute damage stat charisma. this would give him a +3. But it would still only be 1d6+3 vs 1d8+3 and 1d4+3 assuming that all your doing is attacking. Which means he's doing an avg of 6 damage and the monk is doing an avg of 12 damage.
Even if he includes Hexblades Curse and Casting hex using up 1 of his 2 spell slots he's only managing avg 12 damage, On the turns that he can maintain both features on one target. So he's basically spending all he has to do the same damge at level 2 as the monk is spending doing nothing at all. I think I saw that he had Armor of Agathys as well but that requires a turn to set up. It would up his damage all out to 17 for maybe 2 rounds at most. But again. It's spending all of his class and subclass resources and it's not enough damage to overcome the monk who is just attacking.
And this is what i have meant all along by things not being what people claim they are or what they might look like at a glance.
For Example he's needing to do a specialized build to attempt to outdo just any monk. NOt even a subclass monk. Just any monk to try and claim he's better. Have more than one enemy And/or the fight lasts more than a few rounds then he can't do it. On top of that. t his best he's doing 17 damage for 2 rounds. I haven't even addressed the two ki points of the Monk yet. Both Ki points could be spent on flurry of blows. This means an additional 5 avg damage a round compared to the 5 flat damage of AoA. This means the average damage of the Monk is 17 as well for those two rounds of combat (all assuming AoA didn't get wiped out in one round just to re-iterate yet again.) Which means that with just basic resources. The Base Monk is doing as much at level 2 as the Hexblade Warlock is doing including using subclass features.
As a side note. He could use Eldritch Blast to get 1 more Damage than the base monk using only base monk things in the Warlock's all out scenerio. But this has a Caveat. The Warlock has to somehow get hit to trigger AoA's damage and yet still get out of melee range to not suffer disadvantage on Eldritch Blast. So there is a decent chance that either AoA does not get used or Eldritch Blast may not connect which would lower the damage by much more than not getting the AoA damage. So while it can deal more damage it's actually the less favorable option. If it's going directly up against the monk in this scenario it would also mean the likelyhood of even more damage from the Monk in the form of an AoO if he does try to both get AoA damage and still use Eldritch Blast without disadvantage. But then on top of that. 1 damage is hardly meaningful in Optimus own words So that basically means that as far as he's concerned the Eldritch Blast option isn't worth it.
No...
D6+3 attack and then d4+3 bonus action attack for warlock
Vs.
Monk d8+3 action then d4+3 bonus action
So 1 point of difference between the two.
If you start to incorporate ki then you are no longer comparing apples to apples.
And I shifted attributes and they now have the exact same stealth modifer and the warlock still has a better AC (16 vs 17)
He's shifted to point buy to get himself 2 16's. Don't know if that's in your agreement or not.
But then he's the one complaining that my mention of ki and spells was not comparing apples to apples.
I simply said let's compare baseline to baseline.
If you want to get into the hex and Hexblade curse you would have to stipulate how many fights with how many rounds against what ACs to really determine DPR.
If you don't want to get into that granularity then just accept the baseline damage for both and move on
What monk subclass? Oh wait you don't have one yet ...
You chose 2nd level not me?
Monks don't benefit from subclasses until then so complaining that I'm using a subclasses when you picked the level is .... Something I guess