Yeah I can see that now- it is to be noted that after level 11 you just change it to like a different fighting style, however yeah I do see that the d8 damage is pretty overhyped.
It doesn't help that most of the other fighting styles don't work with monk, Defense requires you to wear armor, and like 90% of them require a weapon/shield. Blindsight is probably not worth a feat considering how little it comes up.
Edit: You will always have a weapon, so Dueling might be okay if you use a quarterstaff one handed (only way of getting that Dueling +2 on a d10 weapon lol), but it's still a very small damage boost that's probably not worth a feat.
Yeah I can see that now- it is to be noted that after level 11 you just change it to like a different fighting style, however yeah I do see that the d8 damage is pretty overhyped.
It doesn't help that most of the other fighting styles don't work with monk, Defense requires you to wear armor, and like 90% of them require a weapon/shield. Blindsight is probably not worth a feat considering how little it comes up.
Edit: You will always have a weapon, so Dueling might be okay if you use a quarterstaff one handed (only way of getting that Dueling +2 on a d10 weapon lol), but it's still a very small damage boost that's probably not worth a feat.
You'd have to change the fighting style at level 12 when you get an ASI. You're right though; not a lot of great options to change into at 12.
Blind fighting can be ok for the Shadow Monk although I generally don't like the darkness playstyle.
Interception just requires a shield, simple weapon, or martial weapon. I don't think it's great on monks but it isn't awful if doing a lot of tanking.
Superior Technique is pretty good. A monk would be better served taking this at any level though. I still don't think it's worth a feat.
Yeah I can see that now- it is to be noted that after level 11 you just change it to like a different fighting style, however yeah I do see that the d8 damage is pretty overhyped.
It doesn't help that most of the other fighting styles don't work with monk, Defense requires you to wear armor, and like 90% of them require a weapon/shield. Blindsight is probably not worth a feat considering how little it comes up.
Edit: You will always have a weapon, so Dueling might be okay if you use a quarterstaff one handed (only way of getting that Dueling +2 on a d10 weapon lol), but it's still a very small damage boost that's probably not worth a feat.
You'd have to change the fighting style at level 12 when you get an ASI. You're right though; not a lot of great options to change into at 12.
Blind fighting can be ok for the Shadow Monk although I generally don't like the darkness playstyle.
Interception just requires a shield, simple weapon, or martial weapon. I don't think it's great on monks but it isn't awful if doing a lot of tanking.
Superior Technique is pretty good. A monk would be better served taking this at any level though. I still don't think it's worth a feat.
It should be noted that the matter of how useful blindfighting is depends on your group and upon your DM. It's a circumstance that comes up a lot more if your DM likes to play enemies smart. more enemies will have thigns like invisibility or use powers to hide, or darkness and other things of that nature. Or your group might instead. So it's a very your mileage may vary ability. It can be life saving in one group and a waste of space in another.
You'd have to change the fighting style at level 12 when you get an ASI. You're right though; not a lot of great options to change into at 12.
Blind fighting can be ok for the Shadow Monk although I generally don't like the darkness playstyle.
Interception just requires a shield, simple weapon, or martial weapon. I don't think it's great on monks but it isn't awful if doing a lot of tanking.
Superior Technique is pretty good. A monk would be better served taking this at any level though. I still don't think it's worth a feat.
Considering a few of the tier three monk class features are underwhelming (Tongue of Sun and Moon comes several levels too late, and Timeless Body is worthless in 99.9% of campaigns), it would be so much better if Monks just got 1 or 2 more ASIs. They're a MAD class, so more ASIs would always be beneficial, and then at high levels they could do things like take a fighting style or martial adept to give another tiny little boost to their combat versatility.
Something like: 9: Tongue of Sun and Moon (alongside Unarmored Movement improvements) 10: Purity of Body 11: subclass feature 12: ASI 13: Diamond Soul 14: ASI 15: (anything else, personally I think something like allowing another Unarmed Strike with Martial Arts/FOB would be neat and give the "fast hands" martial artist feel)
Anyways that's off topic. Just feels like a class like Monk, which is less tanky or DPS focused than most other martials, should get another ASI to balance out their need for both DEX and WIS badly.
You'd have to change the fighting style at level 12 when you get an ASI. You're right though; not a lot of great options to change into at 12.
Blind fighting can be ok for the Shadow Monk although I generally don't like the darkness playstyle.
Interception just requires a shield, simple weapon, or martial weapon. I don't think it's great on monks but it isn't awful if doing a lot of tanking.
Superior Technique is pretty good. A monk would be better served taking this at any level though. I still don't think it's worth a feat.
Considering a few of the tier three monk class features are underwhelming (Tongue of Sun and Moon comes several levels too late, and Timeless Body is worthless in 99.9% of campaigns), it would be so much better if Monks just got 1 or 2 more ASIs. They're a MAD class, so more ASIs would always be beneficial, and then at high levels they could do things like take a fighting style or martial adept to give another tiny little boost to their combat versatility.
Something like: 9: Tongue of Sun and Moon (alongside Unarmored Movement improvements) 10: Purity of Body 11: subclass feature 12: ASI 13: Diamond Soul 14: ASI 15: (anything else, personally I think something like allowing another Unarmed Strike with Martial Arts/FOB would be neat and give the "fast hands" martial artist feel)
Anyways that's off topic. Just feels like a class like Monk, which is less tanky or DPS focused than most other martials, should get another ASI to balance out their need for both DEX and WIS badly.
Their balance for needing those stats badly is technically their lack of gear requirements. A whole lot of gear mundane and magical is almost completely optional to the monk in return for the hard focus on certain stats. And their class is primarily revolved around those stats as well. Where many other classes more have general powers that accomidate large variety of equipment and stat variabilities unlike the monk so even when they are specific the benefit tends to be really small and somewhat situational, though sometimes still valuable.
So since unarmed fighting style is a thing we're using Tasha's...which also allows a monk starting from lvl 2 to use the dedicated weapon class feature turning any 1 non-heavy non-special weapon into a monk weapon for a day... I play a Hill Dwarf monk so I have warhammer proficiency and have been using one as my monk weapon. so at lvl 2 that changes my attack into a D10 since I can use it 2 handed and then kick and headbutt for my unarmed attacks. Suddenly that D8 fighting style is not all that impressive anymore... And sure you could say that's just for Dwarves, but there's loads of races out there with weapon proficiencies that allow you to do similar things...
I am now lvl 9 so i got 2 D10 attacks followed by one or 2 D6 attacks, that's very decent.
That and the monk is so much more than a punching machine, but they're good punching machines.
The gear thing comes with a lot of downsides though. Low starting AC that only slowly improves, no benefitting for magic armor, very little room to improve unarmed strikes.
I would personally love for monks to get optional rules for more ASI's than fighters, along with some more half feats like Crusher for them to pick up. Let monks be the most customizable class in the game to represent a martial artist honing their own martial arts style in a certain direction like dps, single powerful hits, defense, stealth and misdirection, spiritual powers, out of combat utility, etc.
"That and the monk is so much more than a punching machine, but they're good punching machines" ... .. there really needs to be a Sound Emogi for when someone makes a joke like that.. i lol'd though
Also note, Monk, Barbarian and Druid are really the only classes that have restrictive armor types they can use built into the class themselves. Both Druid and Barbarian can get away with Medium Armor (at least non metal) and still function as is, but the monk is left with its AC restrictive even with a multiclass or additional proficiency. I personally like the flavor text of it, and although I might be willing to allow for light armor or even shields with a good arguement, but in a home game i see no reason you couldn't allow for it otherwise. It's honestly just being true to the original description of Monk from the older editions and it makes sense in term lore.
The gear thing comes with a lot of downsides though. Low starting AC that only slowly improves, no benefitting for magic armor, very little room to improve unarmed strikes.
I would personally love for monks to get optional rules for more ASI's than fighters, along with some more half feats like Crusher for them to pick up. Let monks be the most customizable class in the game to represent a martial artist honing their own martial arts style in a certain direction like dps, single powerful hits, defense, stealth and misdirection, spiritual powers, out of combat utility, etc.
Most monks do not actually start with low AC. They actually tend to start with AC's that are with 1 to 2 points of the Rogue. And the Rogue has less opportunities to increase their AC without gear. Your typical rogue is starting with a +3 in Dexterity and the best Armor that they can get that is non-magical is only 12 so they are only managing a 15. Many mages with Mage armor can get this AC. And many more mages forgo mage armor because they are staying as far away from the action as possible if their well thought out plans have anything to say about it.
A monk with just starting array and having nothing more than a 14 in one stat and a 16 in the other to start is already at 15 AC which is that same number for another d8 hd skirmisher class that's meant more to weave and move around the battlefield and avoid blows to lengthen their life more than face tank them. But even with starting array with the right race (without getting into Tasha's whole bag of issues). It is actually possible to start with 16 and 16. To have an AC of 16 even at level 1. This is the Same AC that many two handed fighters and Paladins actually start with due to their chainmail. yes they have the option of putting on a shield but they generally aren't as mobile or have things like patient Defense to fall back on for protection which means they can only it or defend without that shield. And by level 4 that same Monk can go up to 17 AC and will be faster moving and have more resources for things like Patient Defense.
Also the Rogue, the Fighter, and that Paladin, They all don't know exactly when they are going to find either better mundane armor or armor that has a magical bonus that suitable for them. It could be a couple levels. It could be 6. It's harder to say. And their increases actually come at a slower pace because once they have hit the pinnacle of the mundane armor. Which some of them practically start at to begin with. They can only rely on at most a bonus of +3 to come from that gear over all over their 20 levels. So most of the time they are not improving any more dramatically than the Monk is in Armor Class. And the Monk knows exactly when his next increase is coming. The only exception to this scaling issue is in non-armor defense magical items such as the ring of protection which are actually usable by anybody including the monk so is a bonus increase to this scale that acounts for all. The only item that can be magically increased besides armor that the monk can't use is the magical shield, But they get one that the armored fellows can't use in the Bracers of Defense which is like adding on a shield for them as well.
If we go back to our 17 AC at level 4 monk and just work with just the Bracers of Defense, who is mostly only competing with spell casters who generally dont' need the AC quite as much so there is a decent chance the Monk can have them when they come up. That is now a 19 AC. Which is very respectable for AC even in second tier and may actually be more than what even some of the so called heavy hitters like the Paladin actually have at that same point.
For the TLDR of it all. They don't start with low AC at all and have potential to match the typically percieved High AC characters easily enough with more predictable increases to it than other classes.
Rogue is the only martial class the monk beats out in starting AC, and the rogue gets all kinds of defensive abilities like uncanny dodge, bonus action hide, and bonus action disengage. Even Druids and Clerics can get a starting ac of 18 with shields and medium armor. Everyone with armor can theoretically improve their armor long before an ASI too by buying better armor.
To the point of two handed fighters and paladins, they get to choose that option for more damage. They can still get 17 AC pretty early on with a fighting style, have more hp, and have a healing ability to make them last even longer. The monk's starting ac is not equivalent in making a trade off for such advantages.
If your playing a campaign setting where gear is just incredibly hard to come by or upgrade, sure, it could take a while for mundane armor to be upgraded. And if you start a campaign with the party completely stripped of gear and forced to gather new gear from nothing, the monk will shine. But those are a minority of campaigns. The game offers a ton of options for magic weapons and armor because "gritty survival campaign with little to no magical items" is not the base assumption.
But if you are going to argue that mundane armor improvements can be unpredictable, its pretty out there to argue the monk isn't bad off because the GM can just give them the one magic item they can use to increase their defense. If the GM is just passing out rare magic items, then the gap is going to open right back up.
Even with spellcasters having worse starting AC, that makes sense: they aren't punching people from 5ft away as a combat style. And with spells and subclasses, they already have a ton of potent defensive options. And really, if the argument comes down to "monks have better AC than characters with no armor," we've already admitted they are abnormally low.
And on top of all of this, while the monk is dependent on their ASI's for AC, other classes can afford to take things that further help their defense like the tough feat, a con improvement, Heavy Armor Master, etc.
TLDR: Bottom tier starting ac that slowly progresses, and only with no deviation in ASI use.
Rogue is the only martial class the monk beats out in starting AC, and the rogue gets all kinds of defensive abilities like uncanny dodge, bonus action hide, and bonus action disengage. Even Druids and Clerics can get a starting ac of 18 with shields and medium armor. Everyone with armor can theoretically improve their armor long before an ASI too by buying better armor.
To the point of two handed fighters and paladins, they get to choose that option for more damage. They can still get 17 AC pretty early on with a fighting style, have more hp, and have a healing ability to make them last even longer. The monk's starting ac is not equivalent in making a trade off for such advantages.
If your playing a campaign setting where gear is just incredibly hard to come by or upgrade, sure, it could take a while for mundane armor to be upgraded. And if you start a campaign with the party completely stripped of gear and forced to gather new gear from nothing, the monk will shine. But those are a minority of campaigns. The game offers a ton of options for magic weapons and armor because "gritty survival campaign with little to no magical items" is not the base assumption.
But if you are going to argue that mundane armor improvements can be unpredictable, its pretty out there to argue the monk isn't bad off because the GM can just give them the one magic item they can use to increase their defense. If the GM is just passing out rare magic items, then the gap is going to open right back up.
Even with spellcasters having worse starting AC, that makes sense: they aren't punching people from 5ft away as a combat style. And with spells and subclasses, they already have a ton of potent defensive options. And really, if the argument comes down to "monks have better AC than characters with no armor," we've already admitted they are abnormally low.
And on top of all of this, while the monk is dependent on their ASI's for AC, other classes can afford to take things that further help their defense like the tough feat, a con improvement, Heavy Armor Master, etc.
TLDR: Bottom tier starting ac that slowly progresses, and only with no deviation in ASI use.
many Full Plate Wearers are not in full plate by level 4. Or they are just getting into it by Level 4.
The Barbarian does not start with better armor. It starts with about even if not slightly less if your relying on Armored Defense but even in it's armored state it's usually not any better than about 15 whether doing unarmored or wearing medium armor at low level. So no they are not necessarily just automatically better to start off with in all martials. And a Barbarian doesn't usually need to really worry about improving his armor much until about the end of tier 2. Because reckless attack negates alot of the benefits but also being hit is a good way to keep their rage going on turns where they can't take a swing or they miss for some reason.
The Ranger Also often isn't doing any better in armor than the Rogue or the Monk either. Even when it's getting up close and personal in melee combat usually being about 15 or 16 as well.
Also Some Martials cannot dramatically improve their armor classes simply by buying new armor. The largest benefit that is purchasable is 2 ac. And Again basically all of those classes do not have an ability like Patient Defense to rely upon to make up the difference that their armor provides. Even when the buy an improvement.
So again. Your wrong.
Your making assumptive conclusions about things without real comparisons of the numbers or the facts behind other circumstances going on.
My Monk is only level 7 and I currently run 19 AC. 18 Dex 14 Wis and 2 homebrew items, a set of Robes (+1 AC) I made and an amulet with 2AC our DM created and allowed us to buy. The robes are "tactically padded to offer a tiny bit of cushion to blows to vital areas, yet still light and supple enough to not interfere with movement" Stuff was available due to our 4 person group being 3 melee and a Druid, lol. I had to be a little harder to hit, on the chance my stuns don't land, so it's +2 WIS at 8 for sure.
I agree wholeheartedly Monks could trade some of the class perks, especially IMO Timeless Body for another ASI. Would make life a lot simpler for Monks and be much more useful overall, I believe. My hunt for direct AC items is over and now I start searching for Wis boosting items, heh heh.
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My Monk is only level 7 and I currently run 19 AC. 18 Dex 14 Wis and 2 homebrew items, a set of Robes (+1 AC) I made and an amulet with 2AC our DM created and allowed us to buy. The robes are "tactically padded to offer a tiny bit of cushion to blows to vital areas, yet still light and supple enough to not interfere with movement" Stuff was available due to our 4 person group being 3 melee and a Druid, lol. I had to be a little harder to hit, on the chance my stuns don't land, so it's +2 WIS at 8 for sure.
I agree wholeheartedly Monks could trade some of the class perks, especially IMO Timeless Body for another ASI. Would make life a lot simpler for Monks and be much more useful overall, I believe. My hunt for direct AC items is over and now I start searching for Wis boosting items, heh heh.
don't neglect con items if they come along. they can still be useful. but boosting that wis up more you'll start feeling a difference in how often those Stuns actually work. otherwise Stunning is just not cost effective. With a 19 AC you might actually be served better with spending that same ki on things like patient defense to make yourself harder to hit instead.
many Full Plate Wearers are not in full plate by level 4. Or they are just getting into it by Level 4.
Lets say it takes them until level 6. That still puts them ahead of monks.
The Barbarian does not start with better armor. It starts with about even if not slightly less if your relying on Armored Defense but even in it's armored state it's usually not any better than about 15 whether doing unarmored or wearing medium armor at low level. So no they are not necessarily just automatically better to start off with in all martials. And a Barbarian doesn't usually need to really worry about improving his armor much until about the end of tier 2. Because reckless attack negates alot of the benefits but also being hit is a good way to keep their rage going on turns where they can't take a swing or they miss for some reason.
I didn't think you'd want to talk about barbarians. They can wear medium armor too and use a shield, so if a barb doesn't have a 16 starting ac its because they have traded that for a 2 handed weapon and more damage. But even just naked they get two of the strongest defensive class features in the game early on: rage and danger sense. They also get d12 hit dice, so more hp and more healing on short rests. Its not a flattering comparison for the monk, who might start with one more AC but doesn't have the extra hitpoints or damage reduction abilities that more than make up for it.
The Ranger Also often isn't doing any better in armor than the Rogue or the Monk either. Even when it's getting up close and personal in melee combat usually being about 15 or 16 as well.
Rangers also get to choose what they want their starting ac to be. They can settle for 16 with scale male, or go lighter, or use a shield in melee combat. And they get a bigger hit die and access to healing spells. Monk keeps standing just above unarmored spell casters, competing with martials with better defense even when they tie in terms of AC.
Also Some Martials cannot dramatically improve their armor classes simply by buying new armor. The largest benefit that is purchasable is 2 ac. And Again basically all of those classes do not have an ability like Patient Defense to rely upon to make up the difference that their armor provides. Even when the buy an improvement.
Unless the DM just throws a merchant with the one magic item a monk can use to increase their ac, that is 2ac for gold the monk misses out on. And when +1,+2, and +3 armor starts showing up, that widens to a potential deficit of 5 ac through equipment (more if shields are being used).
So again, they compete for the lowest tier of ac at the start of a campaign and improve slowly compared to classes that can just shell out money or scavenge for quick ac gains. And on top of that they have one of the smallest possible hit die and fewer defensive abilities. (When patient defense and eventually evasion come on line, they become a lot better at surviving, but even patient defense costs precious resources for the monk).
Im looking at the numbers along with you. I think you are generally agreeing that they compete for the worst ac with martial classes that get a lot more to make up for it.
I can only speak from experience here -- I'm in a campaign with mostly martial classes and at level five the Monk has solidly high AC (17) and is only out-ACed by the Artificer (through +1 armor) and the Paladin (who is specifically going for a tank build). The Ranger, Rogue, and Hexblade are all behind by at least 2 AC.
That 17 AC is not the exception, I don't think -- standard array or point buy can get you to 16 AC (going to 16-17 DEX and 16 WIS with lineage ASIs) and then +1 AC at your first ASI level.
Monks have some pretty good AC at low levels, generally, and unless your martial is specifically focused on building their AC up the Monk will be competitive with them. And without a shield, their AC at level 8 is going to be as high as it can get even with plate armor. All for 0 GP, unlike armor. All without disadvantage on Stealth or armor proficiency or STR requirements.
Light armor maxes out at 17 AC and only with good stat rolls can you get there before level 8. Medium armor maxes out at 17 AC and costs 750 GP and gives you disadvantage on Stealth checks, but you can easily get there earlier than 8 if you have the GP for it. Heavy armor maxes out at 18 AC and costs 1,500 GP and gives you disadvantage on Stealth checks and requires STR 15. I think you'd be hardpressed to find a player who can get plate before level four who ISN'T specifically saving up for armor for a high AC build.
(Also, you mention how Rogues can bonus action Dodge and Disengage, but that's a core Monk feature as well!)
I can only speak from experience here -- I'm in a campaign with mostly martial classes and at level five the Monk has solidly high AC (17) and is only out-ACed by the Artificer (through +1 armor) and the Paladin (who is specifically going for a tank build). The Ranger, Rogue, and Hexblade are all behind by at least 2 AC.
That 17 AC is not the exception, I don't think -- standard array or point buy can get you to 16 AC (going to 16-17 DEX and 16 WIS with lineage ASIs) and then +1 AC at your first ASI level.
Monks have some pretty good AC at low levels, generally, and unless your martial is specifically focused on building their AC up the Monk will be competitive with them. And without a shield, their AC at level 8 is going to be as high as it can get even with plate armor. All for 0 GP, unlike armor. All without disadvantage on Stealth or armor proficiency or STR requirements.
Light armor maxes out at 17 AC and only with good stat rolls can you get there before level 8. Medium armor maxes out at 17 AC and costs 750 GP and gives you disadvantage on Stealth checks, but you can easily get there earlier than 8 if you have the GP for it. Heavy armor maxes out at 18 AC and costs 1,500 GP and gives you disadvantage on Stealth checks and requires STR 15. I think you'd be hardpressed to find a player who can get plate before level four who ISN'T specifically saving up for armor for a high AC build.
(Also, you mention how Rogues can bonus action Dodge and Disengage, but that's a core Monk feature as well!)
This is the kind of stuff I've been saying to him repeatedly. But his goal seems to be to paint monks in a poor light because his arguments are all surface level stuff and not real evaluations.
I actually have a monk who is 6th level and also has 17 AC so it's not even close to out of the ordinary.
On top of that my Monk actually out damages Both the Barbarian and the Fighter than it's run with. It hasn't gotten to be in combat to compare against the Paladin yet. Our group varies from session to session for various reasons in that campaign.
now some could accuse me of cheating because I picked a race with pack tactics. But considering I play with some people that haven't fully adapted to 5e because they do things like still play PF or 3.5 as well so there are levels of power gaming in their builds for most of them. This is actually not a significant power game advantage over any of the rest of them. And some of them have a magic weapon or armor to boot. I just happen to have the eldritch claw tattoo. But even without using it I do quite a bit on the battlefield. On top of that I do it and make it work over multiple rounds on a 4 elements Monk which common perception considers utter trash and does not function as a subclass and a monk at the same time. They've been surprised a few times not only by my damage by also by my ability to affect the battlefield. This is also without class optionals that I know would make him stronger like Ki Fueled Strike because the DM hadn't had the time to really look at any optional class features when everything got going and I've never asked for their consideration and possible usage. And I only want the one really anyway.
There is a lot of perception that is not reality both with monks and with certain subclasses that some people just will not let go of and look for every opportunity to stubbornly harp on it seems and Tasha's just started a wonderful new round of it.
Monks might have enough AC to not be dismal, but they are at the low end starting out. The only martial character who cannot surpass them is the rogue, and they are also compete with the Druid and Cleric.
Its not a massive difference between 16 AC and 18 AC on paper, but it does mean the monk is at the bottom of the pack for martials.
Light armor still allows the use of a shield, and +1,+2, and +3 armor exists, as well as other enchanted armor.
And I didn't say Rogues can bonus action dodge, I said they get uncanny dodge. And their uncanny dodge, bonus action dash, disengage and hide are all free, unlike the monk's.
So what about we throw together a chart with just the average damage no str/dex mods, no need for proficiency as they would theoretically be equal, no feats even though the fighter gets more, no increased stats even though the fighter would theoretically have a higher cap, and assume in general that they hit just to avoid the Stat mods that could throw it off?
For simplicity I'm just looking at Unarmed Combat for the first comparison. The reason being is the real question here is who is the better living weapon if they find themselves getting into a brawl in the privy with no hold out weapons.
I'll put in the number of attacks in order for totals. I'll consider the Ki as flurry of blows for simplicity though most would save for Stunning strike once it became available.
Fighter
Rnd 1
Rnd 2
Rnd 3
Combine
Level
1 Attk
2 Attk
3 Attk
4 Attk
Total
1 Attk
2 Attk
3 Attk
4 Attk
Total
1 Attk
2 Attk
3 Attk
4 Attk
Total
Total
1
4
4
4
4
4
4
12
2
4
4 AS
8
4
4
4
4
16
3
4
4 AS
8
4
4
4
4
16
4
4
4 AS
8
4
4
4
4
16
5
4
4
4 AS
12
4
4
8
4
4
8
20
6
4
4
4 AS
12
4
4
8
4
4
8
20
7
4
4
4 AS
12
4
4
8
4
4
8
20
8
4
4
4 AS
12
4
4
8
4
4
8
20
9
4
4
4 AS
12
4
4
8
4
4
8
20
10
4
4
4 AS
12
4
4
8
4
4
8
20
11
4
4
4
4 AS
16
4
4
4
12
4
4
4
12
40
12
4
4
4
4 AS
16
4
4
4
12
4
4
4
12
40
13
4
4
4
4 AS
16
4
4
4
12
4
4
4
12
40
14
4
4
4
4 AS
16
4
4
4
12
4
4
4
12
40
15
4
4
4
4 AS
16
4
4
4
12
4
4
4
12
40
16
4
4
4
4 AS
16
4
4
4
12
4
4
4
12
40
17
4
4
4
4 AS
16
4
4
4
4 AS
16
4
4
4
12
44
18
4
4
4
4 AS
16
4
4
4
4 AS
16
4
4
4
12
44
19
4
4
4
4 AS
16
4
4
4
4 AS
16
4
4
4
12
44
20
4
4
4
8 AS
20
4
4
4
8 AS
20
4
4
4
4
16
56
Monk
Rnd 1
Rnd 2
Rnd 3
Combine
Level
1 Attk
2 Attk
3 Attk
4 Attk
Total
1 Attk
2 Attk
3 Attk
4 Attk
Total
1 Attk
2 Attk
3 Attk
4 Attk
Total
Total
1
2
2
2
2
2
2
6
2
2
4 FB
6
2
2
2
2
10
3
2
4 FB
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7
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9
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Frankly, I was a little surprised by the results as I thought the Fighter would crush the Monk with just base dice. However, dice mechanics he is only superior for the first 3 Levels after which he is playing catch up. However, the damage is still significant enough that you can pull your martial art's master with fighter alone.
Unless the DM just throws a merchant with the one magic item a monk can use to increase their ac, that is 2ac for gold the monk misses out on. And when +1,+2, and +3 armor starts showing up, that widens to a potential deficit of 5 ac through equipment (more if shields are being used).
So again, they compete for the lowest tier of ac at the start of a campaign and improve slowly compared to classes that can just shell out money or scavenge for quick ac gains. And on top of that they have one of the smallest possible hit die and fewer defensive abilities. (When patient defense and eventually evasion come on line, they become a lot better at surviving, but even patient defense costs precious resources for the monk).
Im looking at the numbers along with you. I think you are generally agreeing that they compete for the worst ac with martial classes that get a lot more to make up for it.
I'm only going to touch on this one. It's not worth bothering with the rest yet agian when I've already explained how it's not true. Your twisting facts. There is no other way around it. You want a 5AC difference that is not there.
Even with Platemail and a shield that is an AC of 20. This does not make a 5 AC difference. This is a 4 AC difference. But I'll even work in your favor I'll say that for some reason the monk was not able to attain 2 16's But was only able to attain a 14 and a 16. And I'll bracket the AC that a 16Dex and 16Wis monk after it for comparison as well for what is attainable.
By level 8. This is a 3 AC difference and only a 4 AC difference if the heavy armor wearer has found Magic Armor AND it's platemail. Being that the Monk has attained 17AC (18AC) for his unarmored Defense and the Plate Wearers are working out to be at 21.
By level 12 when he's finding +2 armor the monk is up to 18AC (19AC) without any magical equipment in his possession. Though he's likely picked up at least one or two pieces that your ignoring as well. Your looking at an AC of 22 versus an AC of at least 18.
By level 16 when your entering tier 4 and you can be assured the Heavy Armor is most likely to have +3 Armor. For a 23 AC while wearing a shield and only talking about armor bonuses. That monk has a 19 AC (20 AC). It's still only a 4 AC difference.
Want to put a couple points of magical protection on that shield as well for 25 AC? Fine got to give the Monk Like so i'll be generous and give it just a ring of Protection and Bracers of Defense. Both of which are only Rare items so they are going to be much mor common finds than that +3 plate. The Monk now has a 22 AC (23AC) in comparison to that plate wearer's 25 AC.
The Rogue by comparison in only light armor even at +3 is only scraping by at 20, As is the Barbarian, and the Ranger. They now are forced to actually wear a shield to have the Same AC as the monk who is still going to gain another guaranteed point of AC (The truth is they've been required to wear that shield to match the pure AC number for a while but this is when it happens at it's absolute latest, and this means they are actually required to have things like the Damage resistance from Rage or healing spells that are limited to make up the difference).
23 AC is easily possible for monks by Maximum level with just two magical items that are only Rare in Quality. The best that the plate wearers are going to pull off is basically 26 for Two magical Items that are at the very least in the Very Rare Category but are more likely Legendary in some way when your restrict your comparisons to Armor and Shield. Now there can be certain things that can adjust this a little bit but the cold hard fact is that there is basically only a small chance that the Monk is 5 points behind the Plate wearers in general and much of the time they are going to be within 3 to 4 points of those top AC's. And the Monk still has Patient Defense and Disengage as well as abilities like Evasion (after level 7) to use as might be best for the situation. On a Character that is not actually supposed to really be doing any Tanking unlike the Platemail wearer's and the Barbarians in the party we're comparing the AC's against, since most of them are actually designed to be tanks if they are putting this much effort into their Defense to create these numbers.
The Truth is that the only Plate Wearers, that might ever even reasonably be 5 points ahead at any significant points are Tank Fighters or Paladins that have taken the Defensive fighting Style and are using sword and board in some variant, or Forge Clerics but only as long as they are using non-magical armor and they are using their Blessing of the Forge to bolster their AC by +1. But Forge Clerics are going to lose that advantage much sooner than the Fighter or the Paladin going full tank. And the full tank better have a better AC to do his job than the Monk but the reality is that He's going to have to focus entirely on his defense to keep ahead of the Monk AND he's still going to slowly lose out. Not just in AC but through Saves as well as Monks pick up various Save bonuses or Immunities to different things. And at the highest levels (18-20) These tanks lose out even more because the Monk picks up the ability to just be invisible for a minute, and this isn't basic invisibility that is lost as soon as one attacks like in the level 2 spell, This is persistant Invisibility with the added bonus that even if they are hit they are actually resistant to most kinds of damage (all Except Force Damage). So that so called Flimsy Monk that your insistent is fighting to be among the worst of the Martial classes in AC and Defenses actually slowly turns into a practical Juggernaut in all but hit points by the time they reach max level. Most people don't actually realize this because they don't really try higher level play as well as the fact that many of them do not play monks in the smartest of ways. Which I actually blame more on the guides because many of the guides do not have much in the way of tactics and they really do not explain the important details of the attributes and styles of Play that are actually available. They are actually mostly very basic and lackluster in providing any real understanding of the Monk class or it's abilities and subclasses.
By the way, At level 4 I can match the Barbarian in Medium Armor's maximum armor bonus and force him to drop damage and change his tactics to get any higher AC than the monk without magical equipment. He may be able to soak a lot more hits. But that's the point of the barbarian and he's likely going to be taking a lot more of them too. Particularly if he's gone to all the trouble to drop down to a 1 handed weapon and a shield to protect himself. Where as my Monk doesn't have to do this thanks to the ability to use disengage or Patient Defense (the Dodge Action as a bonus action) and monks all get Evasion by Level 7. Evasion is Important because it's better than just plain advantage only when you can detect the attack coming because it's baseline amount of damage taken for Monks and Rogues that possess it is actually what every other class takes even when successful on their roll as a baseline, even with that advantage, and should they actually make the save that monks are proficient and high attribute in they actually take no damage at all. The only thing that Danger Sense is actually better at is that it applies to single target dex save attacks as well. So again, the Barbarian needs those extra hitpoints against such attacks but is not actually going to have Resistance to most kinds of damage in general because baseline resistance is only to the 3 physical types (slashing, piercing, bludgeoning). Resistance to other types is something attained only by taking a particular ability of a Particular subclass or through certain races so it is not a good general example covering all barbarians. There is only one chance for the Barbarian to actually do Better in AC. it requires Maxing out Dexterity and Consitution AND their level 20 Capstone so that they get an extra 4 Con and a new natural possible maximum of 24 so that their total unarmored AC ends up being at 22AC. But As many Barbarians don't actually do this and realistically focus more on Con and Strength this is not actually a common scenario and the Con boost usually only brings them up to about 19 or 20 even with Unarmored Defense of their own usually.
So you are not in fact looking at the numbers along with me. Your using nothing more than vague surface level possible values to make your assumptions.
And all of this that's going on for the monk? This is all without actually changing up how I am building or progressing a monk in General. Even if I do a build that emphasizes Wisdom as Primary because I'm taking a subclass that relies quite a bit on Save DC's for their big abilities. This all simply just comes with progressing the character just as much as somebody that focuses on Dexterity and landing their fair number actual hits to deal damage over Stun efficiency or other potential Save DC powers the monk might possess. Though The Dexterity Monk is perhaps a little better suited to a Defensive style monk because instead of throwing several ki over several punches with a bad Save DC at an enemy they could instead be using that ki to more often use abilities like Patient Defense or Disengage to avoid hits or move around the battlefield instead.
Yeah I can see that now- it is to be noted that after level 11 you just change it to like a different fighting style, however yeah I do see that the d8 damage is pretty overhyped.
It doesn't help that most of the other fighting styles don't work with monk, Defense requires you to wear armor, and like 90% of them require a weapon/shield. Blindsight is probably not worth a feat considering how little it comes up.
Edit: You will always have a weapon, so Dueling might be okay if you use a quarterstaff one handed (only way of getting that Dueling +2 on a d10 weapon lol), but it's still a very small damage boost that's probably not worth a feat.
if I edit a message, most of the time it's because of grammar. The rest of the time I'll put "Edit:" at the bottom.
You'd have to change the fighting style at level 12 when you get an ASI. You're right though; not a lot of great options to change into at 12.
It should be noted that the matter of how useful blindfighting is depends on your group and upon your DM. It's a circumstance that comes up a lot more if your DM likes to play enemies smart. more enemies will have thigns like invisibility or use powers to hide, or darkness and other things of that nature. Or your group might instead. So it's a very your mileage may vary ability. It can be life saving in one group and a waste of space in another.
Considering a few of the tier three monk class features are underwhelming (Tongue of Sun and Moon comes several levels too late, and Timeless Body is worthless in 99.9% of campaigns), it would be so much better if Monks just got 1 or 2 more ASIs. They're a MAD class, so more ASIs would always be beneficial, and then at high levels they could do things like take a fighting style or martial adept to give another tiny little boost to their combat versatility.
Something like:
9: Tongue of Sun and Moon (alongside Unarmored Movement improvements)
10: Purity of Body
11: subclass feature
12: ASI
13: Diamond Soul
14: ASI
15: (anything else, personally I think something like allowing another Unarmed Strike with Martial Arts/FOB would be neat and give the "fast hands" martial artist feel)
Anyways that's off topic. Just feels like a class like Monk, which is less tanky or DPS focused than most other martials, should get another ASI to balance out their need for both DEX and WIS badly.
Their balance for needing those stats badly is technically their lack of gear requirements. A whole lot of gear mundane and magical is almost completely optional to the monk in return for the hard focus on certain stats. And their class is primarily revolved around those stats as well. Where many other classes more have general powers that accomidate large variety of equipment and stat variabilities unlike the monk so even when they are specific the benefit tends to be really small and somewhat situational, though sometimes still valuable.
So since unarmed fighting style is a thing we're using Tasha's...which also allows a monk starting from lvl 2 to use the dedicated weapon class feature turning any 1 non-heavy non-special weapon into a monk weapon for a day... I play a Hill Dwarf monk so I have warhammer proficiency and have been using one as my monk weapon. so at lvl 2 that changes my attack into a D10 since I can use it 2 handed and then kick and headbutt for my unarmed attacks. Suddenly that D8 fighting style is not all that impressive anymore... And sure you could say that's just for Dwarves, but there's loads of races out there with weapon proficiencies that allow you to do similar things...
I am now lvl 9 so i got 2 D10 attacks followed by one or 2 D6 attacks, that's very decent.
That and the monk is so much more than a punching machine, but they're good punching machines.
The gear thing comes with a lot of downsides though. Low starting AC that only slowly improves, no benefitting for magic armor, very little room to improve unarmed strikes.
I would personally love for monks to get optional rules for more ASI's than fighters, along with some more half feats like Crusher for them to pick up. Let monks be the most customizable class in the game to represent a martial artist honing their own martial arts style in a certain direction like dps, single powerful hits, defense, stealth and misdirection, spiritual powers, out of combat utility, etc.
"That and the monk is so much more than a punching machine, but they're good punching machines" ... .. there really needs to be a Sound Emogi for when someone makes a joke like that.. i lol'd though
Also note, Monk, Barbarian and Druid are really the only classes that have restrictive armor types they can use built into the class themselves. Both Druid and Barbarian can get away with Medium Armor (at least non metal) and still function as is, but the monk is left with its AC restrictive even with a multiclass or additional proficiency. I personally like the flavor text of it, and although I might be willing to allow for light armor or even shields with a good arguement, but in a home game i see no reason you couldn't allow for it otherwise. It's honestly just being true to the original description of Monk from the older editions and it makes sense in term lore.
Most monks do not actually start with low AC. They actually tend to start with AC's that are with 1 to 2 points of the Rogue. And the Rogue has less opportunities to increase their AC without gear. Your typical rogue is starting with a +3 in Dexterity and the best Armor that they can get that is non-magical is only 12 so they are only managing a 15. Many mages with Mage armor can get this AC. And many more mages forgo mage armor because they are staying as far away from the action as possible if their well thought out plans have anything to say about it.
A monk with just starting array and having nothing more than a 14 in one stat and a 16 in the other to start is already at 15 AC which is that same number for another d8 hd skirmisher class that's meant more to weave and move around the battlefield and avoid blows to lengthen their life more than face tank them. But even with starting array with the right race (without getting into Tasha's whole bag of issues). It is actually possible to start with 16 and 16. To have an AC of 16 even at level 1. This is the Same AC that many two handed fighters and Paladins actually start with due to their chainmail. yes they have the option of putting on a shield but they generally aren't as mobile or have things like patient Defense to fall back on for protection which means they can only it or defend without that shield. And by level 4 that same Monk can go up to 17 AC and will be faster moving and have more resources for things like Patient Defense.
Also the Rogue, the Fighter, and that Paladin, They all don't know exactly when they are going to find either better mundane armor or armor that has a magical bonus that suitable for them. It could be a couple levels. It could be 6. It's harder to say. And their increases actually come at a slower pace because once they have hit the pinnacle of the mundane armor. Which some of them practically start at to begin with. They can only rely on at most a bonus of +3 to come from that gear over all over their 20 levels. So most of the time they are not improving any more dramatically than the Monk is in Armor Class. And the Monk knows exactly when his next increase is coming. The only exception to this scaling issue is in non-armor defense magical items such as the ring of protection which are actually usable by anybody including the monk so is a bonus increase to this scale that acounts for all. The only item that can be magically increased besides armor that the monk can't use is the magical shield, But they get one that the armored fellows can't use in the Bracers of Defense which is like adding on a shield for them as well.
If we go back to our 17 AC at level 4 monk and just work with just the Bracers of Defense, who is mostly only competing with spell casters who generally dont' need the AC quite as much so there is a decent chance the Monk can have them when they come up. That is now a 19 AC. Which is very respectable for AC even in second tier and may actually be more than what even some of the so called heavy hitters like the Paladin actually have at that same point.
For the TLDR of it all. They don't start with low AC at all and have potential to match the typically percieved High AC characters easily enough with more predictable increases to it than other classes.
Rogue is the only martial class the monk beats out in starting AC, and the rogue gets all kinds of defensive abilities like uncanny dodge, bonus action hide, and bonus action disengage. Even Druids and Clerics can get a starting ac of 18 with shields and medium armor. Everyone with armor can theoretically improve their armor long before an ASI too by buying better armor.
To the point of two handed fighters and paladins, they get to choose that option for more damage. They can still get 17 AC pretty early on with a fighting style, have more hp, and have a healing ability to make them last even longer. The monk's starting ac is not equivalent in making a trade off for such advantages.
If your playing a campaign setting where gear is just incredibly hard to come by or upgrade, sure, it could take a while for mundane armor to be upgraded. And if you start a campaign with the party completely stripped of gear and forced to gather new gear from nothing, the monk will shine. But those are a minority of campaigns. The game offers a ton of options for magic weapons and armor because "gritty survival campaign with little to no magical items" is not the base assumption.
But if you are going to argue that mundane armor improvements can be unpredictable, its pretty out there to argue the monk isn't bad off because the GM can just give them the one magic item they can use to increase their defense. If the GM is just passing out rare magic items, then the gap is going to open right back up.
Even with spellcasters having worse starting AC, that makes sense: they aren't punching people from 5ft away as a combat style. And with spells and subclasses, they already have a ton of potent defensive options. And really, if the argument comes down to "monks have better AC than characters with no armor," we've already admitted they are abnormally low.
And on top of all of this, while the monk is dependent on their ASI's for AC, other classes can afford to take things that further help their defense like the tough feat, a con improvement, Heavy Armor Master, etc.
TLDR: Bottom tier starting ac that slowly progresses, and only with no deviation in ASI use.
many Full Plate Wearers are not in full plate by level 4. Or they are just getting into it by Level 4.
The Barbarian does not start with better armor. It starts with about even if not slightly less if your relying on Armored Defense but even in it's armored state it's usually not any better than about 15 whether doing unarmored or wearing medium armor at low level. So no they are not necessarily just automatically better to start off with in all martials. And a Barbarian doesn't usually need to really worry about improving his armor much until about the end of tier 2. Because reckless attack negates alot of the benefits but also being hit is a good way to keep their rage going on turns where they can't take a swing or they miss for some reason.
The Ranger Also often isn't doing any better in armor than the Rogue or the Monk either. Even when it's getting up close and personal in melee combat usually being about 15 or 16 as well.
Also Some Martials cannot dramatically improve their armor classes simply by buying new armor. The largest benefit that is purchasable is 2 ac. And Again basically all of those classes do not have an ability like Patient Defense to rely upon to make up the difference that their armor provides. Even when the buy an improvement.
So again. Your wrong.
Your making assumptive conclusions about things without real comparisons of the numbers or the facts behind other circumstances going on.
My Monk is only level 7 and I currently run 19 AC. 18 Dex 14 Wis and 2 homebrew items, a set of Robes (+1 AC) I made and an amulet with 2AC our DM created and allowed us to buy. The robes are "tactically padded to offer a tiny bit of cushion to blows to vital areas, yet still light and supple enough to not interfere with movement" Stuff was available due to our 4 person group being 3 melee and a Druid, lol. I had to be a little harder to hit, on the chance my stuns don't land, so it's +2 WIS at 8 for sure.
I agree wholeheartedly Monks could trade some of the class perks, especially IMO Timeless Body for another ASI. Would make life a lot simpler for Monks and be much more useful overall, I believe. My hunt for direct AC items is over and now I start searching for Wis boosting items, heh heh.
Talk to your Players. Talk to your DM. If more people used this advice, there would be 24.74% fewer threads on Tactics, Rules and DM discussions.
don't neglect con items if they come along. they can still be useful. but boosting that wis up more you'll start feeling a difference in how often those Stuns actually work. otherwise Stunning is just not cost effective. With a 19 AC you might actually be served better with spending that same ki on things like patient defense to make yourself harder to hit instead.
Lets say it takes them until level 6. That still puts them ahead of monks.
I didn't think you'd want to talk about barbarians. They can wear medium armor too and use a shield, so if a barb doesn't have a 16 starting ac its because they have traded that for a 2 handed weapon and more damage. But even just naked they get two of the strongest defensive class features in the game early on: rage and danger sense. They also get d12 hit dice, so more hp and more healing on short rests. Its not a flattering comparison for the monk, who might start with one more AC but doesn't have the extra hitpoints or damage reduction abilities that more than make up for it.
Rangers also get to choose what they want their starting ac to be. They can settle for 16 with scale male, or go lighter, or use a shield in melee combat. And they get a bigger hit die and access to healing spells. Monk keeps standing just above unarmored spell casters, competing with martials with better defense even when they tie in terms of AC.
Unless the DM just throws a merchant with the one magic item a monk can use to increase their ac, that is 2ac for gold the monk misses out on. And when +1,+2, and +3 armor starts showing up, that widens to a potential deficit of 5 ac through equipment (more if shields are being used).
So again, they compete for the lowest tier of ac at the start of a campaign and improve slowly compared to classes that can just shell out money or scavenge for quick ac gains. And on top of that they have one of the smallest possible hit die and fewer defensive abilities. (When patient defense and eventually evasion come on line, they become a lot better at surviving, but even patient defense costs precious resources for the monk).
Im looking at the numbers along with you. I think you are generally agreeing that they compete for the worst ac with martial classes that get a lot more to make up for it.
I can only speak from experience here -- I'm in a campaign with mostly martial classes and at level five the Monk has solidly high AC (17) and is only out-ACed by the Artificer (through +1 armor) and the Paladin (who is specifically going for a tank build). The Ranger, Rogue, and Hexblade are all behind by at least 2 AC.
That 17 AC is not the exception, I don't think -- standard array or point buy can get you to 16 AC (going to 16-17 DEX and 16 WIS with lineage ASIs) and then +1 AC at your first ASI level.
Monks have some pretty good AC at low levels, generally, and unless your martial is specifically focused on building their AC up the Monk will be competitive with them. And without a shield, their AC at level 8 is going to be as high as it can get even with plate armor. All for 0 GP, unlike armor. All without disadvantage on Stealth or armor proficiency or STR requirements.
Light armor maxes out at 17 AC and only with good stat rolls can you get there before level 8.
Medium armor maxes out at 17 AC and costs 750 GP and gives you disadvantage on Stealth checks, but you can easily get there earlier than 8 if you have the GP for it.
Heavy armor maxes out at 18 AC and costs 1,500 GP and gives you disadvantage on Stealth checks and requires STR 15. I think you'd be hardpressed to find a player who can get plate before level four who ISN'T specifically saving up for armor for a high AC build.
(Also, you mention how Rogues can bonus action Dodge and Disengage, but that's a core Monk feature as well!)
Rogues can't bonus action Dodge. They can only Disengage, Dash, and Hide.
if I edit a message, most of the time it's because of grammar. The rest of the time I'll put "Edit:" at the bottom.
This is the kind of stuff I've been saying to him repeatedly. But his goal seems to be to paint monks in a poor light because his arguments are all surface level stuff and not real evaluations.
I actually have a monk who is 6th level and also has 17 AC so it's not even close to out of the ordinary.
On top of that my Monk actually out damages Both the Barbarian and the Fighter than it's run with. It hasn't gotten to be in combat to compare against the Paladin yet. Our group varies from session to session for various reasons in that campaign.
now some could accuse me of cheating because I picked a race with pack tactics. But considering I play with some people that haven't fully adapted to 5e because they do things like still play PF or 3.5 as well so there are levels of power gaming in their builds for most of them. This is actually not a significant power game advantage over any of the rest of them. And some of them have a magic weapon or armor to boot. I just happen to have the eldritch claw tattoo. But even without using it I do quite a bit on the battlefield. On top of that I do it and make it work over multiple rounds on a 4 elements Monk which common perception considers utter trash and does not function as a subclass and a monk at the same time. They've been surprised a few times not only by my damage by also by my ability to affect the battlefield. This is also without class optionals that I know would make him stronger like Ki Fueled Strike because the DM hadn't had the time to really look at any optional class features when everything got going and I've never asked for their consideration and possible usage. And I only want the one really anyway.
There is a lot of perception that is not reality both with monks and with certain subclasses that some people just will not let go of and look for every opportunity to stubbornly harp on it seems and Tasha's just started a wonderful new round of it.
Monks might have enough AC to not be dismal, but they are at the low end starting out. The only martial character who cannot surpass them is the rogue, and they are also compete with the Druid and Cleric.
Its not a massive difference between 16 AC and 18 AC on paper, but it does mean the monk is at the bottom of the pack for martials.
Light armor still allows the use of a shield, and +1,+2, and +3 armor exists, as well as other enchanted armor.
And I didn't say Rogues can bonus action dodge, I said they get uncanny dodge. And their uncanny dodge, bonus action dash, disengage and hide are all free, unlike the monk's.
So what about we throw together a chart with just the average damage no str/dex mods, no need for proficiency as they would theoretically be equal, no feats even though the fighter gets more, no increased stats even though the fighter would theoretically have a higher cap, and assume in general that they hit just to avoid the Stat mods that could throw it off?
For simplicity I'm just looking at Unarmed Combat for the first comparison. The reason being is the real question here is who is the better living weapon if they find themselves getting into a brawl in the privy with no hold out weapons.
I'll put in the number of attacks in order for totals. I'll consider the Ki as flurry of blows for simplicity though most would save for Stunning strike once it became available.
Frankly, I was a little surprised by the results as I thought the Fighter would crush the Monk with just base dice. However, dice mechanics he is only superior for the first 3 Levels after which he is playing catch up. However, the damage is still significant enough that you can pull your martial art's master with fighter alone.
I'm only going to touch on this one. It's not worth bothering with the rest yet agian when I've already explained how it's not true. Your twisting facts. There is no other way around it. You want a 5AC difference that is not there.
Even with Platemail and a shield that is an AC of 20. This does not make a 5 AC difference. This is a 4 AC difference. But I'll even work in your favor I'll say that for some reason the monk was not able to attain 2 16's But was only able to attain a 14 and a 16. And I'll bracket the AC that a 16Dex and 16Wis monk after it for comparison as well for what is attainable.
By level 8. This is a 3 AC difference and only a 4 AC difference if the heavy armor wearer has found Magic Armor AND it's platemail. Being that the Monk has attained 17AC (18AC) for his unarmored Defense and the Plate Wearers are working out to be at 21.
By level 12 when he's finding +2 armor the monk is up to 18AC (19AC) without any magical equipment in his possession. Though he's likely picked up at least one or two pieces that your ignoring as well. Your looking at an AC of 22 versus an AC of at least 18.
By level 16 when your entering tier 4 and you can be assured the Heavy Armor is most likely to have +3 Armor. For a 23 AC while wearing a shield and only talking about armor bonuses. That monk has a 19 AC (20 AC). It's still only a 4 AC difference.
Want to put a couple points of magical protection on that shield as well for 25 AC? Fine got to give the Monk Like so i'll be generous and give it just a ring of Protection and Bracers of Defense. Both of which are only Rare items so they are going to be much mor common finds than that +3 plate. The Monk now has a 22 AC (23AC) in comparison to that plate wearer's 25 AC.
The Rogue by comparison in only light armor even at +3 is only scraping by at 20, As is the Barbarian, and the Ranger. They now are forced to actually wear a shield to have the Same AC as the monk who is still going to gain another guaranteed point of AC (The truth is they've been required to wear that shield to match the pure AC number for a while but this is when it happens at it's absolute latest, and this means they are actually required to have things like the Damage resistance from Rage or healing spells that are limited to make up the difference).
23 AC is easily possible for monks by Maximum level with just two magical items that are only Rare in Quality. The best that the plate wearers are going to pull off is basically 26 for Two magical Items that are at the very least in the Very Rare Category but are more likely Legendary in some way when your restrict your comparisons to Armor and Shield. Now there can be certain things that can adjust this a little bit but the cold hard fact is that there is basically only a small chance that the Monk is 5 points behind the Plate wearers in general and much of the time they are going to be within 3 to 4 points of those top AC's. And the Monk still has Patient Defense and Disengage as well as abilities like Evasion (after level 7) to use as might be best for the situation. On a Character that is not actually supposed to really be doing any Tanking unlike the Platemail wearer's and the Barbarians in the party we're comparing the AC's against, since most of them are actually designed to be tanks if they are putting this much effort into their Defense to create these numbers.
The Truth is that the only Plate Wearers, that might ever even reasonably be 5 points ahead at any significant points are Tank Fighters or Paladins that have taken the Defensive fighting Style and are using sword and board in some variant, or Forge Clerics but only as long as they are using non-magical armor and they are using their Blessing of the Forge to bolster their AC by +1. But Forge Clerics are going to lose that advantage much sooner than the Fighter or the Paladin going full tank. And the full tank better have a better AC to do his job than the Monk but the reality is that He's going to have to focus entirely on his defense to keep ahead of the Monk AND he's still going to slowly lose out. Not just in AC but through Saves as well as Monks pick up various Save bonuses or Immunities to different things. And at the highest levels (18-20) These tanks lose out even more because the Monk picks up the ability to just be invisible for a minute, and this isn't basic invisibility that is lost as soon as one attacks like in the level 2 spell, This is persistant Invisibility with the added bonus that even if they are hit they are actually resistant to most kinds of damage (all Except Force Damage). So that so called Flimsy Monk that your insistent is fighting to be among the worst of the Martial classes in AC and Defenses actually slowly turns into a practical Juggernaut in all but hit points by the time they reach max level. Most people don't actually realize this because they don't really try higher level play as well as the fact that many of them do not play monks in the smartest of ways. Which I actually blame more on the guides because many of the guides do not have much in the way of tactics and they really do not explain the important details of the attributes and styles of Play that are actually available. They are actually mostly very basic and lackluster in providing any real understanding of the Monk class or it's abilities and subclasses.
By the way, At level 4 I can match the Barbarian in Medium Armor's maximum armor bonus and force him to drop damage and change his tactics to get any higher AC than the monk without magical equipment. He may be able to soak a lot more hits. But that's the point of the barbarian and he's likely going to be taking a lot more of them too. Particularly if he's gone to all the trouble to drop down to a 1 handed weapon and a shield to protect himself. Where as my Monk doesn't have to do this thanks to the ability to use disengage or Patient Defense (the Dodge Action as a bonus action) and monks all get Evasion by Level 7. Evasion is Important because it's better than just plain advantage only when you can detect the attack coming because it's baseline amount of damage taken for Monks and Rogues that possess it is actually what every other class takes even when successful on their roll as a baseline, even with that advantage, and should they actually make the save that monks are proficient and high attribute in they actually take no damage at all. The only thing that Danger Sense is actually better at is that it applies to single target dex save attacks as well. So again, the Barbarian needs those extra hitpoints against such attacks but is not actually going to have Resistance to most kinds of damage in general because baseline resistance is only to the 3 physical types (slashing, piercing, bludgeoning). Resistance to other types is something attained only by taking a particular ability of a Particular subclass or through certain races so it is not a good general example covering all barbarians. There is only one chance for the Barbarian to actually do Better in AC. it requires Maxing out Dexterity and Consitution AND their level 20 Capstone so that they get an extra 4 Con and a new natural possible maximum of 24 so that their total unarmored AC ends up being at 22AC. But As many Barbarians don't actually do this and realistically focus more on Con and Strength this is not actually a common scenario and the Con boost usually only brings them up to about 19 or 20 even with Unarmored Defense of their own usually.
So you are not in fact looking at the numbers along with me. Your using nothing more than vague surface level possible values to make your assumptions.
And all of this that's going on for the monk? This is all without actually changing up how I am building or progressing a monk in General. Even if I do a build that emphasizes Wisdom as Primary because I'm taking a subclass that relies quite a bit on Save DC's for their big abilities. This all simply just comes with progressing the character just as much as somebody that focuses on Dexterity and landing their fair number actual hits to deal damage over Stun efficiency or other potential Save DC powers the monk might possess. Though The Dexterity Monk is perhaps a little better suited to a Defensive style monk because instead of throwing several ki over several punches with a bad Save DC at an enemy they could instead be using that ki to more often use abilities like Patient Defense or Disengage to avoid hits or move around the battlefield instead.