Using Devotion's ability is actively worse than not having the ability in some cases. That is pretty special.
Wow.
I'm impressed at how you managed to completely miss the point. Now, if you're fighting a dragon, by all means, it's perhaps the surest way to tell you're fighting "the big fight" of the day. You'll use it, because you'd be silly not to. It's a dragon, after all! But, did you know you'd fight that dragon? Did you come across other fights along the way? Did you bother using your channel divinity in a fight with numerous baddies? Did you know the "boss" would be after those enemies?
Tell me something, do you only fight one enemy during any given fight? No? Okay, so let's use your example. Round 1, you used your vengeance's CD on a random baddie, and attack with at 87.75% chance to hit. On the same round, devotion doesn't. Next round, both vengeance and devotion are the same, but now let's assume the creature dies. Now, next turn, vengeance attacks a creature, 65% to hit. Devotion? Still has that buffed chance.
What do you do when you come across an enemy resistant (or heaven forbid immune, cause jackalweres exist) to non-magical BPS damage in tier 1? Devotion uses their channel divinity and thanks WotC for it. Vengeance might have to blow through their smites to get through the encounter, but more might be ahead. You don't know that.
But even barring all that, one simple solution is to ready your action prior to combat. Are you entering a dark and spooky dungeon? Just, ready your action to use your channel divinity the moment you see a hostile creature attack your allies. There, when initiative rolls, your reaction's used up and you start with a +3 to hit without any delay. And since devotion's channel divinity is good in ANY encounter, it doesn't matter if it's a fight with some weak mooks to mop up, or the fight with the mini-boss, or the BBEG of the day. It's still being put to good use.
Using Devotion's ability is actively worse than not having the ability in some cases. That is pretty special.
Wow.
I'm impressed at how you managed to completely miss the point. Now, if you're fighting a dragon, by all means, it's perhaps the surest way to tell you're fighting "the big fight" of the day. You'll use it, because you'd be silly not to. It's a dragon, after all! But, did you know you'd fight that dragon? Did you come across other fights along the way? Did you bother using your channel divinity in a fight with numerous baddies? Did you know the "boss" would be after those enemies?
If you're fighting a dragon and didn't know you'd be fighting a dragon... immediately TPK. Immediately, immediately TPK. Nothing we're talking about matters. Only TPK.
Tell me something, do you only fight one enemy during any given fight? No? Okay, so let's use your example. Round 1, you used your vengeance's CD on a random baddie, and attack with at 87.75% chance to hit. On the same round, devotion doesn't. Next round, both vengeance and devotion are the same, but now let's assume the creature dies. Now, next turn, vengeance attacks a creature, 65% to hit. Devotion? Still has that buffed chance.
Yo my dude. Even if we assume the vengeance paladin hit and then kills enemy-bro in round 1 he still wins out because Devotion-bro is standing there with his pants around his ankles still not having done anything. Okay, round 2 rolls around and now Vengeance-bro goes off to whack at a 2nd target but only at 65%. Sure. Fine. But devotion-bro still needs to try to fight enemy#1 still! Yeah at 80%, but he's got a lot of ground to make up still. Vengeance-bro is chunking enemy-bro #2 already.
What do you do when you come across an enemy resistant (or heaven forbid immune, cause jackalweres exist) to non-magical BPS damage in tier 1? Devotion uses their channel divinity and thanks WotC for it. Vengeance might have to blow through their smites to get through the encounter, but more might be ahead. You don't know that.
But even barring all that, one simple solution is to ready your action prior to combat. Are you entering a dark and spooky dungeon? Just, ready your action to use your channel divinity the moment you see a hostile creature attack your allies. There, when initiative rolls, your reaction's used up and you start with a +3 to hit without any delay.
Sure, right, if your DM homebrews that your standard action ability can be freely used as a reaction at the start of combat because they took pity on your bad sublclass choice I understand why it seems good to you.
For anyone else actually playing by 5e rules, who have to actually spend an action on round 1 to use the ability that says it take an action to activate... it might be a bad choice unless combat lasts a while.
And since devotion's channel divinity is good in ANY encounter, it doesn't matter if it's a fight with some weak mooks to mop up, or the fight with the mini-boss, or the BBEG of the day. It's still being put to good use.
Any fight were a + to hit is helpful.... advantage on hits is also...helpful. It is the same benefit except Vengeance version is a bonus action and more effective.
Vow of enmity is overrated. Only useful on one target, and once that target's gone, you're no better than anybody else. It forces you to either hold off on using it sooner because you're waiting for the big bad to appear, or you never use it at all.
Hey guys, we're over here fighting a dragon but having on-demand guaranteed advantage on every single last attack against it is super not going to be helpful.
When is having on-demand advantage not helpful? Never use it at all??? How? Are you specifically trying to not attack your enemies?
Devotion? Useful in any combat. If you miss on average about a third of the time, devotion bumps that up easily to hitting 80% of the time. I've had my won fair share of turns where I attack and miss, consecutively and it feels awful. It makes me think I would've been better off using that action to buff myself, and doing so prevents as frequent misses.
You waste the first turn of every combat on this?
Let's do some hard number comparisons.
+3 attack by spending an action. Or. Advantage on attack from spending a bonus action.
You want average miss of a third? How about 35%? You have a +5 to hit but the target AC is 13. You need to roll a 8 or higher to hit, so 1-7 misses. 35%
Round 1: You spend your turn making your weapon +3 to hit with and glow. Neat. Vs Attacking with advantage 87.75% chance to hit. Vengeance wins here.
Round 2: Devotion finally gets to attack, now with +3, now only a 1-4 misses on the raw d20! That's a ...wait, that's only 80%. Huh. Vengeance is attacking with advantage and still has a 87.75% chance to hit. Winner: Still very much Vengeance.
Round 3+. Yeah it's the same. Vengeance won already.
Okay okay. Yeah, we all know vengeance is better. Fine I won't keep driving that point home. But you know what else? Nothing is actually better than devotion. Yeah, that's right. Not using it is actually better than using it.
Because you give up an action, you are giving up a whole attack. That 100% not a hit. You could have used that action for your 65% to hit attack and at least might have .. you know... hit. So instead you gave up a whole possibility of hitting for... a 15% extra chance per successive hit. So, to make up for your lost chance to hit you'll need to attack at minimum 5 times to make up for the loss of the attack you didn't make at all. That's Round 6. If you're not getting to round 6 you're decreasing your average damage output by using this ability. This is assuming you have at least a +3 Cha. if it is only a +2 for whatever reason you'd need to attack 7+ times to make up for the lost action.
Using Devotion's ability is actively worse than not having the ability in some cases. That is pretty special.
Vow of Enmity is a bonus action, advantage Vengeance. But Vow of Enmity is only one creature. In my experience, playing as Vengeance, most of the times I used it the creature died before I had more than a turn or two attacking it. There were then other monsters to attack only with me having no more Vow of Enmity to place on them. Sure, if you know you are going to be facing one really, really tough monsters with a slew of hp, then Vow of Enmity is great. In my actual experience, this didn't happen all that often.
Devotion Sacred Weapon is an action, but the + to hit goes with you. If one creature dies, the next one you attack you still have your CHA modifier helping you out. With Vengeance, your channel divinity was spent on the first creature. Where I think Sacred Weapon truly shines is when have GWM, so your -5 to hit is being largely or even entirely mitigated by the plus from your CHA. Vow of Enmity's advantage is seen as being basically equivalent to a +5, but remember, if that creature dies, it's gone. SW is for a full minute where you are getting that + CHA modifier to all attacks with your main weapon.
I think both Vow of Enmity and Sacred Weapon are best on a heavy hitting 2h.
Both have a "turn something" other CD. Devotion's Turn Unholy hits all undead/fiends in an area of effect, which is nice. But Abjure Enemy can be used on anybody, but most likely will be used on one undead or fiend you really want to get to stay out of combat, since it gives disadvantage on the save. So one turn hits a 30 ft radius, the other is only one creature, but with disadvantage on the save. I think they both can be useful and this is kind of a draw. Both can be the correct call, in any given fight.
Vengeance has a better spell list imo. Vengeance has one of the best if not THE best spell list.
Devotion has the superior 7th level ability. Lots of spells in 5e are charm spells. All of those spells are negated and made void by this aura. Most people don't really understand how many spells are listed as a charm spell. Dominate Monster (8th level spell)...charm. Otto's Irresistible Dance...(6th level)...charm. Geas, Mass Suggestion and on and on. All are charms and all are useless on a 7th level Devotion paladin.
The difference (for channel divinity) is always favoring Vengeance, in vs Devotion. The loss of a bonus action to gain a %hit on any number of actions outweighs the "benefit' of giving up a whole action for a small %hit bonus to future actions. It's just math.
Be mad about it if you want. But vengeance is mathematically superior in almost every encounter.
There are fringe cases. extremely long combats against massive numbers of weak enemies. Sure. But honestly your party wizard/sorc is the MVP in this fight anyway so hows it matter if you hit for one extra hit or not. They're blasting dozens of enemies at a time.
Almost any fight where your impact is relevant if you could pick one or the other, vengeance is mathematically going to net you higher damage.
+ to hit, advantage, are they comparable? Sure. Same benefit? Why not, let's go with that. But, don't forget that vengeance's benefit is limited to one target. Not the case for devotion. Guess what, fights usually have multiple targets!
Besides, there's ways to use your channel divinity before combat. They may result in lower in-combat durations, but that's okay, cause combats last about 3-4 rounds on average anyways.
But even barring all that, one simple solution is to ready your action prior to combat. Are you entering a dark and spooky dungeon? Just, ready your action to use your channel divinity the moment you see a hostile creature attack your allies. There, when initiative rolls, your reaction's used up and you start with a +3 to hit without any delay. And since devotion's channel divinity is good in ANY encounter, it doesn't matter if it's a fight with some weak mooks to mop up, or the fight with the mini-boss, or the BBEG of the day. It's still being put to good use.
The only issue with using a ready action on your CD Sacred Weapon is, as you noted, that you may end up using it on "weak mooks." If I was your DM and you were constantly using that ready action to get out of having to use an action on SW, I would definitely put some kobolds ahead of the fight with the big bad! lol :)
Vow of Enmity only being a bonus action is a major selling point. But as we have noted, the selling point of Sacred Weapon is the + to hit stays with you, for a full minute, no matter what. So they both have their selling points and can be good. If you were crit fishing, then Vow of Enmity's advantage is best (not to mention you now would have a reliable method of ensuring regular advantage, for something like the feat Elven Accuracy). If you hate missing and want to make sure every attack has the best chance of hitting, then Sacred Weapon is a good choice.
+ to hit, advantage, are they comparable? Sure. Same benefit? Why not, let's go with that. But, don't forget that vengeance's benefit is limited to one target. Not the case for devotion. Guess what, fights usually have multiple targets!
Besides, there's ways to use your channel divinity before combat. They may result in lower in-combat durations, but that's okay, cause combats last about 3-4 rounds on average anyways.
Glad you mentioned it. 3-4 rounds. it means you know.
Lets assume average damage of 10 per hit. Simple numbers. lets assume 4 rounds. That's the more favorable to your point. Lets assume numerous weak enemies. No clear boss, so veng is at its worst... or is it?? +5 hit. 16 Cha. ACs at 13. Same numbers as before. Easy. All your numbers.
Veng. R1. BA Channel gets advantage one 1st enemy. Av DMG goes from 6.5 to 8.775. Say he kills him. Channel over. R2-4 6.5 avg damage per round. Total: 26.325 damage.
-vs-
Devotion. R1. Wastes turn making sword glow. R2-4 8 avg damage. Total: 24 average damage.
The difference (for channel divinity) is always favoring Vengeance, in vs Devotion. The loss of a bonus action to gain a %hit on any number of actions outweighs the "benefit' of giving up a whole action for a small %hit bonus to future actions. It's just math.
Be mad about it if you want. But vengeance is mathematically superior in almost every encounter.
There are fringe cases. extremely long combats against massive numbers of weak enemies. Sure. But honestly your party wizard/sorc is the MVP in this fight anyway so hows it matter if you hit for one extra hit or not. They're blasting dozens of enemies at a time.
Almost any fight where your impact is relevant if you could pick one or the other, vengeance is mathematically going to net you higher damage.
If you are always fighting the "big bad" then Vow of Enmity will be better. If the target of your Vow of Enmity dies earlier than you expected, then it does nothing for you. In a fight with multiple mobs, Sacred Weapon's benefit will be there for every single attack you make...not so with Vow. Sacred Weapon will easily out produce Vow of Enmity in that case. So really, it depends on what the fight is. Not every fight you are going to have is with a Red Dragon! There are a whole lot more lesser fights, along the way. :)
The difference (for channel divinity) is always favoring Vengeance, in vs Devotion. The loss of a bonus action to gain a %hit on any number of actions outweighs the "benefit' of giving up a whole action for a small %hit bonus to future actions. It's just math.
Be mad about it if you want. But vengeance is mathematically superior in almost every encounter.
There are fringe cases. extremely long combats against massive numbers of weak enemies. Sure. But honestly your party wizard/sorc is the MVP in this fight anyway so hows it matter if you hit for one extra hit or not. They're blasting dozens of enemies at a time.
Almost any fight where your impact is relevant if you could pick one or the other, vengeance is mathematically going to net you higher damage.
If you are always fighting the "big bad" then Vow of Enmity will be better. If the target of your Vow of Enmity dies earlier than you expected, then it does nothing for you. In a fight with multiple mobs, Sacred Weapon's benefit will be there for every single attack you make...not so with Vow. Sacred Weapon will easily out produce Vow of Enmity in that case. So really, it depends on what the fight is. Not every fight you are going to have is with a Red Dragon! There are a whole lot more lesser fights, along the way. :)
That's true except that devotion is actively worse than not using it, all on its own, unless the fight stretches longer than 5 rounds. Spending a whole round to get a +10 or +15% hit chance is a bad call unless you have time to recoup that loss. That takes numerous rounds. Maybe as many... or more, than you'll actually be fighting. It only makes sense to use the ability in 2 situations:
1. Extremely long fights.
2. When you're the aggressor and starting the fight.
Otherwise, if you're in a typical 3-4 round combat encounter, spending your first whole action to give yourself a +%hit bonus of like 10% is a bad call. You'd've been better off not even having the ability.
We haven't even touched on the fact vengeance can double+ your chance of crit-smiting. That's a whole extra win for that subclass.
Rav, if you have a +5 CHA and a lot of paladins are going that route, especially because of multi-classing, then it's better than a 10-15% extra hit chance.
You are right, the drawback is the action to activate it. You are wrong that Vengeance always is better. And even when it is better, it's really a small margin better. Hyperbole is the rule in these arguments, but let's be honest, they both are good. Vow of Enmity isn't made for trash mobs, but for those endgame "big bad" moments. Sacred Weapon is good for all those trash mobs and still useful vs the "big bad," just one turn behind Vengeance. :)
I think Devotion has other selling points. Level 7 and level 15 Devotion abilities are superior to Vengeance's. Although, Relentless Avenger gets better with Polearm Master. Without that, it's very close to junk.
Rav, if you have a +5 CHA and a lot of paladins are going that route, especially because of multi-classing, then it's better than a 10-15% extra hit chance.
Yeah, for reals all bets off if you're rolling for stats and can sink a bunch of 18s into all your stats at L1. Having a +5 cha for devotion means a +25% hit, and that starts getting appealing far sooner in each combat than a +10% or +15% does by a lot.
Now, if you have a high Cha because you MC'd into Hexblade then you've given up 2hander weapons so this becomes a much weirder comparison between a damage dealer vs a high AC-bro.
You are right, the drawback is the action to activate it. You are wrong that Vengeance always is better.
Eh, I said almost always better, and then outlined the 2 scenarios when it isn't better. 1. Very long fights. 2. You got jump on enemy and can pre-buff.
I'm being pretty darned fair and rational here and looking only at actual math. This is objective analysis.
And even when it is better, it's really a small margin better. Hyperbole is the rule in these arguments, but let's be honest, they both are good. Vow of Enmity isn't made for trash mobs, but for those endgame "big bad" moments. Sacred Weapon is good for all those trash mobs and still useful vs the "big bad," just one turn behind Vengeance. :)
Yeah, one turn behind might mean you're at 0 HP and haven't done anything yet. Maybe hyperbole but wasting your entire first action have very literally zero effect on the combat is almost always a bad, bad call. People consider a boost of a few points to their initiative powerful, and you're over here entirely discarding your whole first turn for this bonus to hit. You better have done the math to know its worth that big of a price. That is a massive price. The first round of combat can often shape the course of everything that follows and devotion-bro is sitting there sending thoughts and prayers.
I think Devotion has other selling points. Level 7 and level 15 Devotion abilities are superior to Vengeance's. Although, Relentless Avenger gets better with Polearm Master. Without that, it's very close to junk.
Now THAT... that's a good argument. L7 vengeance feature begs you to PAM it up and if you don't it's super situational at best. Neat, sometimes cool, but not reliable or impactful. But with PAM? Especially if your move speed is high? Whew boy its fun to zip around combat more than the Mobility rogue can.
I haven't played at L15 since 3.5 so I'll skip talking about that feature like I even know what it is.
Rav, if you have a +5 CHA and a lot of paladins are going that route, especially because of multi-classing, then it's better than a 10-15% extra hit chance.
Yeah, for reals all bets off if you're rolling for stats and can sink a bunch of 18s into all your stats at L1. Having a +5 cha for devotion means a +25% hit, and that starts getting appealing far sooner in each combat than a +10% or +15% does by a lot.
Now, if you have a high Cha because you MC'd into Hexblade then you've given up 2hander weapons so this becomes a much weirder comparison between a damage dealer vs a high AC-bro.
Pact of the Blade? That's three levels in to get CHA as your attack modifier with 2h weapons.
Other than that, a hexblade can still use 2h weapons, they are just using STR as their attack modifier i.e. hex warrior isn't changing their attack mod. Don't a number of AL modules have methods of boosting STR by magical means? Magical gauntlets, belts or even effects, appear in WotC content.
See, that's the problem with theorycrafting. There are many variables. And at this point, lots of paladins are multi-classed paladin/warlocks, paladin/sorcerers, paladin/bards, etc. I suspect, although don't know, that there are more multi-classed paladins at level 10 overall, than pure level 10 paladins.
This is a very good video by Treantmonk. Looking at questions such as which build or subclass is better or worse. There are just a ton of variables, which can effect our outcome. Saying this or that has better DPR is a very tricky proposition. We all do it (I certainly make plans based on this), but realize there is a large margin of error in all of our calculations and plotting. :)
+ to hit, advantage, are they comparable? Sure. Same benefit? Why not, let's go with that. But, don't forget that vengeance's benefit is limited to one target. Not the case for devotion. Guess what, fights usually have multiple targets!
Besides, there's ways to use your channel divinity before combat. They may result in lower in-combat durations, but that's okay, cause combats last about 3-4 rounds on average anyways.
Glad you mentioned it. 3-4 rounds. it means you know.
Lets assume average damage of 10 per hit. Simple numbers. lets assume 4 rounds. That's the more favorable to your point. Lets assume numerous weak enemies. No clear boss, so veng is at its worst... or is it?? +5 hit. 16 Cha. ACs at 13. Same numbers as before. Easy. All your numbers.
Veng. R1. BA Channel gets advantage one 1st enemy. Av DMG goes from 6.5 to 8.775. Say he kills him. Channel over. R2-4 6.5 avg damage per round. Total: 26.325 damage.
-vs-
Devotion. R1. Wastes turn making sword glow. R2-4 8 avg damage. Total: 24 average damage.
Loser? Devotion.
A difference that small, eh? Yet for all of that, you bypass any resistance to non-magical damage. That's easily worth it in tier 1 lol
Rav, if you have a +5 CHA and a lot of paladins are going that route, especially because of multi-classing, then it's better than a 10-15% extra hit chance.
Yeah, for reals all bets off if you're rolling for stats and can sink a bunch of 18s into all your stats at L1. Having a +5 cha for devotion means a +25% hit, and that starts getting appealing far sooner in each combat than a +10% or +15% does by a lot.
Now, if you have a high Cha because you MC'd into Hexblade then you've given up 2hander weapons so this becomes a much weirder comparison between a damage dealer vs a high AC-bro.
Pact of the Blade? That's three levels in to get CHA as your attack modifier with 2h weapons.
So, now you wanna compare whether a L3 Hexblade who will eventually become a Devotion paladin ... you know, eventually... is better than a L3 Vengeance Paladin? This is a tangent on top of a tangent.
Comparing just their two channel divinities, which is all we were talking about: Vengeance is better in almost all cases. And, when it isn't better it isn't by much or it probably didn't even matter.
Other than that, a hexblade can still use 2h weapons, they are just using STR as their attack modifier i.e. hex warrior isn't changing their attack mod. Don't a number of AL modules have methods of boosting STR by magical means? Magical gauntlets, belts or even effects, appear in WotC content.
Oh right, hypothetically you could be playing a god-king with 30 charisma at level 1 and so Devotion is clearly better. kk. Meanwhile, for the rest of us who are comparing actual player character stats, you probably have a +3. Maybe less.
If you really need to compare a L3Hexblade multiclass Devotion paladin, then, they'd be level 6 when this combo of yours comes online. A L3Hexblade/L3Devadin can pump Cha. Sure. But at this point he still doesn't even have any ASIs yet. So still has a +3 cha anyway. All he's done is allowed himself to dump Str I guess for some reason, and forgo taking ASIs, not getting extra attack, all around a worse character than the equivalent L6 Vengeance Paladin. Not sure how multiclassing 3 levels into warlock was somehow supposed to make Devotion better. Vengeance Vs whatever that thing is just blows it out of the water.
See, that's the problem with theorycrafting. There are many variables.
You're trying to introduce unnecessary variables every time the math shows vengeance is better. Yes.
And at this point, lots of paladins are multi-classed paladin/warlocks, paladin/sorcerers, paladin/bards, etc. I suspect, although don't know, that there are more multi-classed paladins at level 10 overall, than pure level 10 paladins.
Using your action to give yourself a +%hit on subsequent attacks is like financially investing. If you don't know how long it takes for that investment to pay itself back you might be making a mistake.
Let's break it down. Each Cha Mod has a different ROI (return on investment) period.
+1 Cha. This is only giving you +5% to hit. It means you're giving up 1 attack. (2 attacks if you have extra attack) It will take 20 attacks for this to add up to +1 hit. Can you make 20 attacks with this sword this combat? yes? use it. No? Don't. If you have extra attacks you need to make 40 attacks with it to get your ROI. Will that happen? Then use it.
+2 Cha. This gives +10% hit. Costs an action. You'll need to attack 10 times in combat for your ROI. 20 if you have extra attack. Think that's going to happen?
+3 Cha. We're at +15% now. Getting solidly mediocre. 7 attacks to get your ROI. 14 if you have extra attack. This might happen in some combats. Maybe.
+4 Cha. Here we go! +20% hit. Attack 5 times to ROI it. That's plausible! Might happen more than it doesn't. 10 times with extra attack, still doable.
+5 Cha. +25% hit. Boyah. Only 4 attacks to ROI now. This makes sense to use. Even at 8 to ROI with extra attack, totally doable should happen most combats easy.
Vengeance? Vengeance always makes sense to use it. Cha? Irrelevant. # swings? Irrelevant. Just get in there and start swinging at advantage. Maybe it only gives a couple + damage. Ok. Maybe it gives hundreds, great. It always gives a bonus. Meanwhile Devotion can actively hamstring your performance.
I am currently playing a Leonin Oath of Glory paladin, and I'm having a blast with him, especially since the sub-class flavor fits perfectly with the Leonin history. I'm surprised the sub-class is not more popular, because it provides a great martial flair. More people need to try it, because I find it glorious ;)
So what? People have different opinions. I think Vengeance and Devotion are very close in overall power, with each having something better than the other.
Does your video even definitively say that Vengeance is the best paladin subclass or just do an optimized build? And then, even if you believe it is, the difference between them is not nearly as great as you seem to think. The paladin class chassis is great, so the subclasses are a lot closer in game play ability than you seem to think.
See, that's the problem with theorycrafting. There are many variables.
You're trying to introduce unnecessary variables every time the math shows vengeance is better. Yes.
I'm trying to show you objectively, that there are variables that you can't take into account. So your answer is to not acknowledge there ever are variables, but bulldog on ahead with your "definitive" evidence that vengeance is better because Vow of Enmity takes a bonus action. That's it. That's your entire argument...a bonus action vs an action. I have said it's not ideal for Sacred Weapon to be an action. But there are other factors that lessen that one lost turn.
I have played a vengeance paladin to level 8 and thoroughly enjoyed it. That having been said, it quite often happened where we were more than 30 ft away from our opponents, and a turn was taken to allow them to rush up on us. In those fights, I tended to throw a javelin (if they were within range) or maybe cast Bless on myself and a couple of others. In those fights, the Vow of Enmity was useless until at least Rd 2. If I had been a devotion paladin, I could have easily used Sacred Weapon in that first turn. That example is just one of those messy little things called "variables." Not all fights happen indoors, nor start in a close quarters.
And yet, Treantmonk ranks Devotion just ahead of Vengeance.
Neat!
You're trying to add more variables again. We're only comparing these channel divinity powers, remember? No you don't? Whoops!
So what? People have different opinions. I think Vengeance and Devotion are very close in overall power, with each having something better than the other.
Neat!
Vengeance's channel divinity is still better. Ooops.
Does your video even definitively say that Vengeance is the best paladin subclass or just do an optimized build?
I admit I'm a handsome man, but the video's creator is even handsomer still. As much as I'd love to say that it was my video, I must confess that I am merely a fan of the creator.
And then, even if you believe it is, the difference between them is not nearly as great as you seem to think. The paladin class chassis is great, so the subclasses are a lot closer in game play ability than you seem to think.
Weird. Here I am just comparing the two subclasses' channel divinity powers and not the subclasses as a whole. You seem to be making stuff up and arguing against imaginary ghosts.
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I got quotes!
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Wow.
I'm impressed at how you managed to completely miss the point. Now, if you're fighting a dragon, by all means, it's perhaps the surest way to tell you're fighting "the big fight" of the day. You'll use it, because you'd be silly not to. It's a dragon, after all! But, did you know you'd fight that dragon? Did you come across other fights along the way? Did you bother using your channel divinity in a fight with numerous baddies? Did you know the "boss" would be after those enemies?
Tell me something, do you only fight one enemy during any given fight? No? Okay, so let's use your example. Round 1, you used your vengeance's CD on a random baddie, and attack with at 87.75% chance to hit. On the same round, devotion doesn't. Next round, both vengeance and devotion are the same, but now let's assume the creature dies. Now, next turn, vengeance attacks a creature, 65% to hit. Devotion? Still has that buffed chance.
What do you do when you come across an enemy resistant (or heaven forbid immune, cause jackalweres exist) to non-magical BPS damage in tier 1? Devotion uses their channel divinity and thanks WotC for it. Vengeance might have to blow through their smites to get through the encounter, but more might be ahead. You don't know that.
But even barring all that, one simple solution is to ready your action prior to combat. Are you entering a dark and spooky dungeon? Just, ready your action to use your channel divinity the moment you see a hostile creature attack your allies. There, when initiative rolls, your reaction's used up and you start with a +3 to hit without any delay. And since devotion's channel divinity is good in ANY encounter, it doesn't matter if it's a fight with some weak mooks to mop up, or the fight with the mini-boss, or the BBEG of the day. It's still being put to good use.
If you're fighting a dragon and didn't know you'd be fighting a dragon... immediately TPK. Immediately, immediately TPK. Nothing we're talking about matters. Only TPK.
Yo my dude. Even if we assume the vengeance paladin hit and then kills enemy-bro in round 1 he still wins out because Devotion-bro is standing there with his pants around his ankles still not having done anything. Okay, round 2 rolls around and now Vengeance-bro goes off to whack at a 2nd target but only at 65%. Sure. Fine. But devotion-bro still needs to try to fight enemy#1 still! Yeah at 80%, but he's got a lot of ground to make up still. Vengeance-bro is chunking enemy-bro #2 already.
Sure, right, if your DM homebrews that your standard action ability can be freely used as a reaction at the start of combat because they took pity on your bad sublclass choice I understand why it seems good to you.
For anyone else actually playing by 5e rules, who have to actually spend an action on round 1 to use the ability that says it take an action to activate... it might be a bad choice unless combat lasts a while.
Any fight were a + to hit is helpful.... advantage on hits is also...helpful. It is the same benefit except Vengeance version is a bonus action and more effective.
I got quotes!
Vow of Enmity is a bonus action, advantage Vengeance. But Vow of Enmity is only one creature. In my experience, playing as Vengeance, most of the times I used it the creature died before I had more than a turn or two attacking it. There were then other monsters to attack only with me having no more Vow of Enmity to place on them. Sure, if you know you are going to be facing one really, really tough monsters with a slew of hp, then Vow of Enmity is great. In my actual experience, this didn't happen all that often.
Devotion Sacred Weapon is an action, but the + to hit goes with you. If one creature dies, the next one you attack you still have your CHA modifier helping you out. With Vengeance, your channel divinity was spent on the first creature. Where I think Sacred Weapon truly shines is when have GWM, so your -5 to hit is being largely or even entirely mitigated by the plus from your CHA. Vow of Enmity's advantage is seen as being basically equivalent to a +5, but remember, if that creature dies, it's gone. SW is for a full minute where you are getting that + CHA modifier to all attacks with your main weapon.
I think both Vow of Enmity and Sacred Weapon are best on a heavy hitting 2h.
Both have a "turn something" other CD. Devotion's Turn Unholy hits all undead/fiends in an area of effect, which is nice. But Abjure Enemy can be used on anybody, but most likely will be used on one undead or fiend you really want to get to stay out of combat, since it gives disadvantage on the save. So one turn hits a 30 ft radius, the other is only one creature, but with disadvantage on the save. I think they both can be useful and this is kind of a draw. Both can be the correct call, in any given fight.
Vengeance has a better spell list imo. Vengeance has one of the best if not THE best spell list.
Devotion has the superior 7th level ability. Lots of spells in 5e are charm spells. All of those spells are negated and made void by this aura. Most people don't really understand how many spells are listed as a charm spell. Dominate Monster (8th level spell)...charm. Otto's Irresistible Dance...(6th level)...charm. Geas, Mass Suggestion and on and on. All are charms and all are useless on a 7th level Devotion paladin.
The difference (for channel divinity) is always favoring Vengeance, in vs Devotion. The loss of a bonus action to gain a %hit on any number of actions outweighs the "benefit' of giving up a whole action for a small %hit bonus to future actions. It's just math.
Be mad about it if you want. But vengeance is mathematically superior in almost every encounter.
There are fringe cases. extremely long combats against massive numbers of weak enemies. Sure. But honestly your party wizard/sorc is the MVP in this fight anyway so hows it matter if you hit for one extra hit or not. They're blasting dozens of enemies at a time.
Almost any fight where your impact is relevant if you could pick one or the other, vengeance is mathematically going to net you higher damage.
I got quotes!
+ to hit, advantage, are they comparable? Sure. Same benefit? Why not, let's go with that. But, don't forget that vengeance's benefit is limited to one target. Not the case for devotion. Guess what, fights usually have multiple targets!
Besides, there's ways to use your channel divinity before combat. They may result in lower in-combat durations, but that's okay, cause combats last about 3-4 rounds on average anyways.
The only issue with using a ready action on your CD Sacred Weapon is, as you noted, that you may end up using it on "weak mooks." If I was your DM and you were constantly using that ready action to get out of having to use an action on SW, I would definitely put some kobolds ahead of the fight with the big bad! lol :)
Vow of Enmity only being a bonus action is a major selling point. But as we have noted, the selling point of Sacred Weapon is the + to hit stays with you, for a full minute, no matter what. So they both have their selling points and can be good. If you were crit fishing, then Vow of Enmity's advantage is best (not to mention you now would have a reliable method of ensuring regular advantage, for something like the feat Elven Accuracy). If you hate missing and want to make sure every attack has the best chance of hitting, then Sacred Weapon is a good choice.
Glad you mentioned it. 3-4 rounds. it means you know.
Lets assume average damage of 10 per hit. Simple numbers. lets assume 4 rounds. That's the more favorable to your point. Lets assume numerous weak enemies. No clear boss, so veng is at its worst... or is it?? +5 hit. 16 Cha. ACs at 13. Same numbers as before. Easy. All your numbers.
Veng. R1. BA Channel gets advantage one 1st enemy. Av DMG goes from 6.5 to 8.775. Say he kills him. Channel over. R2-4 6.5 avg damage per round. Total: 26.325 damage.
-vs-
Devotion. R1. Wastes turn making sword glow. R2-4 8 avg damage. Total: 24 average damage.
Loser? Devotion.
I got quotes!
If you are always fighting the "big bad" then Vow of Enmity will be better. If the target of your Vow of Enmity dies earlier than you expected, then it does nothing for you. In a fight with multiple mobs, Sacred Weapon's benefit will be there for every single attack you make...not so with Vow. Sacred Weapon will easily out produce Vow of Enmity in that case. So really, it depends on what the fight is. Not every fight you are going to have is with a Red Dragon! There are a whole lot more lesser fights, along the way. :)
That's true except that devotion is actively worse than not using it, all on its own, unless the fight stretches longer than 5 rounds. Spending a whole round to get a +10 or +15% hit chance is a bad call unless you have time to recoup that loss. That takes numerous rounds. Maybe as many... or more, than you'll actually be fighting. It only makes sense to use the ability in 2 situations:
1. Extremely long fights.
2. When you're the aggressor and starting the fight.
Otherwise, if you're in a typical 3-4 round combat encounter, spending your first whole action to give yourself a +%hit bonus of like 10% is a bad call. You'd've been better off not even having the ability.
We haven't even touched on the fact vengeance can double+ your chance of crit-smiting. That's a whole extra win for that subclass.
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Rav, if you have a +5 CHA and a lot of paladins are going that route, especially because of multi-classing, then it's better than a 10-15% extra hit chance.
You are right, the drawback is the action to activate it. You are wrong that Vengeance always is better. And even when it is better, it's really a small margin better. Hyperbole is the rule in these arguments, but let's be honest, they both are good. Vow of Enmity isn't made for trash mobs, but for those endgame "big bad" moments. Sacred Weapon is good for all those trash mobs and still useful vs the "big bad," just one turn behind Vengeance. :)
I think Devotion has other selling points. Level 7 and level 15 Devotion abilities are superior to Vengeance's. Although, Relentless Avenger gets better with Polearm Master. Without that, it's very close to junk.
Yeah, for reals all bets off if you're rolling for stats and can sink a bunch of 18s into all your stats at L1. Having a +5 cha for devotion means a +25% hit, and that starts getting appealing far sooner in each combat than a +10% or +15% does by a lot.
Now, if you have a high Cha because you MC'd into Hexblade then you've given up 2hander weapons so this becomes a much weirder comparison between a damage dealer vs a high AC-bro.
Eh, I said almost always better, and then outlined the 2 scenarios when it isn't better. 1. Very long fights. 2. You got jump on enemy and can pre-buff.
I'm being pretty darned fair and rational here and looking only at actual math. This is objective analysis.
Yeah, one turn behind might mean you're at 0 HP and haven't done anything yet. Maybe hyperbole but wasting your entire first action have very literally zero effect on the combat is almost always a bad, bad call. People consider a boost of a few points to their initiative powerful, and you're over here entirely discarding your whole first turn for this bonus to hit. You better have done the math to know its worth that big of a price. That is a massive price. The first round of combat can often shape the course of everything that follows and devotion-bro is sitting there sending thoughts and prayers.
Now THAT... that's a good argument. L7 vengeance feature begs you to PAM it up and if you don't it's super situational at best. Neat, sometimes cool, but not reliable or impactful. But with PAM? Especially if your move speed is high? Whew boy its fun to zip around combat more than the Mobility rogue can.
I haven't played at L15 since 3.5 so I'll skip talking about that feature like I even know what it is.
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Pact of the Blade? That's three levels in to get CHA as your attack modifier with 2h weapons.
Other than that, a hexblade can still use 2h weapons, they are just using STR as their attack modifier i.e. hex warrior isn't changing their attack mod. Don't a number of AL modules have methods of boosting STR by magical means? Magical gauntlets, belts or even effects, appear in WotC content.
See, that's the problem with theorycrafting. There are many variables. And at this point, lots of paladins are multi-classed paladin/warlocks, paladin/sorcerers, paladin/bards, etc. I suspect, although don't know, that there are more multi-classed paladins at level 10 overall, than pure level 10 paladins.
This is a very good video by Treantmonk. Looking at questions such as which build or subclass is better or worse. There are just a ton of variables, which can effect our outcome. Saying this or that has better DPR is a very tricky proposition. We all do it (I certainly make plans based on this), but realize there is a large margin of error in all of our calculations and plotting. :)
https://youtu.be/hZhC-Mv-RJw?t=158
A difference that small, eh? Yet for all of that, you bypass any resistance to non-magical damage. That's easily worth it in tier 1 lol
So, now you wanna compare whether a L3 Hexblade who will eventually become a Devotion paladin ... you know, eventually... is better than a L3 Vengeance Paladin? This is a tangent on top of a tangent.
Comparing just their two channel divinities, which is all we were talking about: Vengeance is better in almost all cases. And, when it isn't better it isn't by much or it probably didn't even matter.
Oh right, hypothetically you could be playing a god-king with 30 charisma at level 1 and so Devotion is clearly better. kk. Meanwhile, for the rest of us who are comparing actual player character stats, you probably have a +3. Maybe less.
If you really need to compare a L3Hexblade multiclass Devotion paladin, then, they'd be level 6 when this combo of yours comes online. A L3Hexblade/L3Devadin can pump Cha. Sure. But at this point he still doesn't even have any ASIs yet. So still has a +3 cha anyway. All he's done is allowed himself to dump Str I guess for some reason, and forgo taking ASIs, not getting extra attack, all around a worse character than the equivalent L6 Vengeance Paladin. Not sure how multiclassing 3 levels into warlock was somehow supposed to make Devotion better. Vengeance Vs whatever that thing is just blows it out of the water.
You're trying to introduce unnecessary variables every time the math shows vengeance is better. Yes.
Using your action to give yourself a +%hit on subsequent attacks is like financially investing. If you don't know how long it takes for that investment to pay itself back you might be making a mistake.
Let's break it down. Each Cha Mod has a different ROI (return on investment) period.
Vengeance? Vengeance always makes sense to use it. Cha? Irrelevant. # swings? Irrelevant. Just get in there and start swinging at advantage. Maybe it only gives a couple + damage. Ok. Maybe it gives hundreds, great. It always gives a bonus. Meanwhile Devotion can actively hamstring your performance.
I got quotes!
lol this just dropped today:
https://youtu.be/2hxVUt6CZks
I got quotes!
I am currently playing a Leonin Oath of Glory paladin, and I'm having a blast with him, especially since the sub-class flavor fits perfectly with the Leonin history. I'm surprised the sub-class is not more popular, because it provides a great martial flair. More people need to try it, because I find it glorious ;)
And yet, Treantmonk ranks Devotion just ahead of Vengeance.
https://youtu.be/_r-Ld-O8Okg?t=67
So what? People have different opinions. I think Vengeance and Devotion are very close in overall power, with each having something better than the other.
Does your video even definitively say that Vengeance is the best paladin subclass or just do an optimized build? And then, even if you believe it is, the difference between them is not nearly as great as you seem to think. The paladin class chassis is great, so the subclasses are a lot closer in game play ability than you seem to think.
I'm trying to show you objectively, that there are variables that you can't take into account. So your answer is to not acknowledge there ever are variables, but bulldog on ahead with your "definitive" evidence that vengeance is better because Vow of Enmity takes a bonus action. That's it. That's your entire argument...a bonus action vs an action. I have said it's not ideal for Sacred Weapon to be an action. But there are other factors that lessen that one lost turn.
I have played a vengeance paladin to level 8 and thoroughly enjoyed it. That having been said, it quite often happened where we were more than 30 ft away from our opponents, and a turn was taken to allow them to rush up on us. In those fights, I tended to throw a javelin (if they were within range) or maybe cast Bless on myself and a couple of others. In those fights, the Vow of Enmity was useless until at least Rd 2. If I had been a devotion paladin, I could have easily used Sacred Weapon in that first turn. That example is just one of those messy little things called "variables." Not all fights happen indoors, nor start in a close quarters.
Neat!
You're trying to add more variables again. We're only comparing these channel divinity powers, remember? No you don't? Whoops!
Neat!
Vengeance's channel divinity is still better. Ooops.
I admit I'm a handsome man, but the video's creator is even handsomer still. As much as I'd love to say that it was my video, I must confess that I am merely a fan of the creator.
Weird. Here I am just comparing the two subclasses' channel divinity powers and not the subclasses as a whole. You seem to be making stuff up and arguing against imaginary ghosts.
I got quotes!