When looking at build advice for Vengeance Paladins, there's always a lot of discussion around how well PAM/Sentinel works, but it always seems to hinge on rolling a Variant Human or Custom Lineage for the extra feat. This just seems a bit dull to me, and I'd like to try and make this work with another race - namely, a Scourge Aasimar for that real avenging angel feel. No multiclassing and assuming this is a level 1-20 campaign (blue sky thinking, I know).
I'd use Tasha's optional rules to reassign my origin ASI's to +2 STR and +1 CHA. Using point buy, I'd go for 15 STR/8 DEX/15 CON/8 INT/15 CHA.
For feats/ASI, I'd want the following:
Slasher (+1 STR)
+2 STR ASI
Resilient (+1 CON)
Polearm Master
Sentinel
My questions are these:
What order should I take these feats in?
Would taking PAM/Sentinel at 4th and 8th put me too far behind the curve?
Is 16 ok to leave CON and CHA at?
Are my DEX/WIS/INT too low, or will Aura of Protection mitigate that?
First off It could absolutely work for what you want to do. Once leveled and built you will be doing far more damage a turn than a vHuman would be able to do. At lvl 20 this is an additional 30 points of damage a turn.
However your missing a feat that PAM/Sentinel builds generally include which is why they generally recommend vHuman and that would be GWM. This would increase your damage out put substantially over slasher. But I can see its benefits.
Now a couple of things here. As a Paladin you don't need to rely on STR for damage or two hit. More so if you're planning on taking Oath of Devotion or Vengeance because of their Channel Divinity abilities. Here's what I would do to get the best utility from your stats using Point Buy now its probably gonna look weird but it will work doing so on a Paladin.
Str 15, Dex 8, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 12, Cha 14
I would also not mess around with the Scourge Aasimars ability scores. This would give you the following scores. Str 15, Dex 8, Con 15, Int 8, Wis 12, Cha 16. The benefit to this is an increased Wisdom save that would be at least a +10 save later on which highly beneficial being a Paladin. After this I would take the feats in this order:
PAM (Res Con)
GWM* (PAM)
Sentinel* (GWM)*
Res Con (Sentinel)*
Slasher (ASI Cha +2)
Normally I would take res con at lvl 4 just because of how clutch it ends up being but I see the benefits on not delaying what you want your character to do. So I recommend if you want your core feats on line first do what is not in parenthesis. If your fine delaying it by a little Res Con if very good to have at early level. If so take it at lvl 4 and do what I put in parenthesis. I personally would take it at lvl 4. Further what I would do is remove slasher and do a Charisma boost. I cover why further down. Conversely you can swap how I put GWM and Sentinel depending on what features you want online first. I would take PAM before both of these always regardless which you choose.
Now the reason I removed the ASI to str. As I said Paladins are not required to have a high Str to be effective. I proved this in an AL game I played where I had a 15 Str from lvl 1-13 and didnt have a magical weapon from lvls 1-10. I was playing a Devotion Paladin so the need of a magical weapon wasnt a priority for me. Just make sure to use your channel divinity to its maximum ability and you'll do great on hitting things. Further there are more items in 5e that increase Str than any other ability and these items bump you to an str of a 19 all the way up to 29.
To answer your pointed questions now:
1. Detailed above and given two different ways of doing such.
2. It would only put you behind the curve if you were comparing it to a vhuman PAM Sentinel Paladin or Barbarian. You're already going to be behind a PAM/Sentinel Fighter no matter what. This being said though you're a Paladin. The defacto most powerful single class in the game. Not only do you have the best healing, single turn damage cabilities, and saves, but you can extend your saves and an other aura to your allies as well. The power curve is you. Paladins boost any adventuring Party beyond their capabilities. Its also the reason why when playing with a bunch of new players an experienced Player plays a Paladin to keep the Party alive. Now I'm a Paladin main so I'm a poor example of this but it is exactly what Talisan Jaffey did when they started their campaign before he made Percy.
3. Having a 16 in Con and Cha is perfectly reasonable. I would always lean to having a higher Charisma but its a trade off when making a PAM/Sentinel Paladin as you're feat starved. Preferably I'd recommend a Charisma of 18 or 20 because Aura of protection is amazing. To put it in perspective at level 6 Aura of Protection covers a total of 24 titles around you. At lvl 18 this extends to 168 tiles around you. As a Vengeance Paladin though you are less reliant on Charisma compared to a Devotion.
4. No you're Dex and Int are not to low. These are going to be +2 but that is still higher than any other class that has an 8 as an ability score. Your wisdom not doing it how I suggested would be a +8 at the lowest if you did your stat set up. having a +10 or higher starts putting you virtually in Auto save territory.
Thank you for your insightful response! I've been doing a lot of theorycrafting in my spare time to try and deepen my understanding of the game (and to keep me sane during this pandemic), and working around the Paladin's MADness is something I struggle with without that oh-so-popular Hexblade dip - I keep getting stuck on the notion of pumping the primary stat to 20 and not having any odd numbers by the time I reach max level. I think I keep forgetting that there are a lot of abilities baked in that makes hitting stuff a lot easier.
You've given me something to think about, so thanks again!
Here's an important question: where is this paladin going to be played? Is it going to be played in AL (specifically historic) where you can be assured you'll reach lvl 20? If that's the case, you can easily plan around magic items being a given factor instead of an unknown factor. In that case, go for both PAM and Sentinel right away and pick up a pair of ogre gauntlets when you can, then a belt of giant strength in tier 2, and so forth.
Is it a home campaign with friends? Then, chances are you -won't- see lvl 20, let alone lvl 12. If that's the case, you have to ask yourself if fun is your most important factor going in a game, and if that's the case, you definitely want to grab PAM+ Sentinel by lvl 8 if only because that's what'll bring you satisfaction and not being "on curve" or whatever.
Theorycrafting will tell you that you should grab PAM first, as that will increase DPR more than anything else, and that you should grab STR or GWM second. That's what looking at DPR will tell you, but that's probably not your fantasy. You'll be behind the curve, but in reality it's not by much because PAM+sentinel isn't too different from PAM+STR, you know? But so what? if that's what you think feels right, go for it.
Thank you for your insightful response! I've been doing a lot of theorycrafting in my spare time to try and deepen my understanding of the game (and to keep me sane during this pandemic), and working around the Paladin's MADness is something I struggle with without that oh-so-popular Hexblade dip - I keep getting stuck on the notion of pumping the primary stat to 20 and not having any odd numbers by the time I reach max level. I think I keep forgetting that there are a lot of abilities baked in that makes hitting stuff a lot easier.
You've given me something to think about, so thanks again!
No problem! People get focused on the Paladin's MADness a lot. I tend to take it a step further with adding in Wisdom as a priority as well but trust me it makes a very effective character. I've never been a fan of hexadins I think they are overhyped and seen many a one thinking they were the best at everything fail repeatedly when compared to a straight class, but thats another discussion entirely. Don't worry alot of people have that conception about odd numbers. The biggest thing people forget is their abilities that they have and can use on a regular basis. Like I said I'm a Paladin main so if you have any questions feel free to ask.
Here's an important question: where is this paladin going to be played? Is it going to be played in AL (specifically historic) where you can be assured you'll reach lvl 20? If that's the case, you can easily plan around magic items being a given factor instead of an unknown factor. In that case, go for both PAM and Sentinel right away and pick up a pair of ogre gauntlets when you can, then a belt of giant strength in tier 2, and so forth.
Is it a home campaign with friends? Then, chances are you -won't- see lvl 20, let alone lvl 12. If that's the case, you have to ask yourself if fun is your most important factor going in a game, and if that's the case, you definitely want to grab PAM+ Sentinel by lvl 8 if only because that's what'll bring you satisfaction and not being "on curve" or whatever.
Theorycrafting will tell you that you should grab PAM first, as that will increase DPR more than anything else, and that you should grab STR or GWM second. That's what looking at DPR will tell you, but that's probably not your fantasy. You'll be behind the curve, but in reality it's not by much because PAM+sentinel isn't too different from PAM+STR, you know? But so what? if that's what you think feels right, go for it.
This is one of many characters I hope to play at some point. I'm not very familiar with AL and pretty much just play home campaigns with friends, so yeah level 20 is a bit of a pipe dream!
I recommend the heck out of trying AL, specifically online through discord servers. You'll be playing all those character ideas in no time, and then some.
Also consider taking the bludgeoning feat for the end of your stick. This allows you to push an enemy once per turn. If you want to use a plain old spear, it keeps the build without requiring reach weapons. The PAM and Sentinel feat combo is one of my favorites in the game. It's great especially for vengeance paladins who get to move when taking opportunity attacks.
My DM allowed me to learn Sentinel Feat in game. He found guidance from fellow DM's to have my character do two things. One, my character needs to NOT take 20 opportunity attacks (the idea being my character is "learning" how his attackers move and use their weapons during an attack). Two, my Palidan needs to find (in game) someone skilled in the Sentinel ability to "train" my Pally (an NPC of course). For that I will rely on my DM to provide that trainer when he feels the time is right.
I am currently 7th level and have been "collecting" my 20 time of NOT taking OPP attacks during 6th level and now 7th. I have so far not taken 10 out of my 20 required (I did take some OPP attacks now and then when the battle seemed to demand it).
In game I also found during a role play in a city who the NPC is who could train me. So now I have a side quest to find that trainer.
I admit that I am struggling with the value of ultimately gaining the Sentinel feat without burning an ASI versus not taking 20 OPP attacks during battles.
It is a balance of the DM not wanting to just give Feats away, over what my character has to sacrifice to earn the Feat.
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Hello everyone!
When looking at build advice for Vengeance Paladins, there's always a lot of discussion around how well PAM/Sentinel works, but it always seems to hinge on rolling a Variant Human or Custom Lineage for the extra feat. This just seems a bit dull to me, and I'd like to try and make this work with another race - namely, a Scourge Aasimar for that real avenging angel feel. No multiclassing and assuming this is a level 1-20 campaign (blue sky thinking, I know).
I'd use Tasha's optional rules to reassign my origin ASI's to +2 STR and +1 CHA. Using point buy, I'd go for 15 STR/8 DEX/15 CON/8 INT/15 CHA.
For feats/ASI, I'd want the following:
My questions are these:
Thanks in advance!
First off It could absolutely work for what you want to do. Once leveled and built you will be doing far more damage a turn than a vHuman would be able to do. At lvl 20 this is an additional 30 points of damage a turn.
However your missing a feat that PAM/Sentinel builds generally include which is why they generally recommend vHuman and that would be GWM. This would increase your damage out put substantially over slasher. But I can see its benefits.
Now a couple of things here. As a Paladin you don't need to rely on STR for damage or two hit. More so if you're planning on taking Oath of Devotion or Vengeance because of their Channel Divinity abilities. Here's what I would do to get the best utility from your stats using Point Buy now its probably gonna look weird but it will work doing so on a Paladin.
Str 15, Dex 8, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 12, Cha 14
I would also not mess around with the Scourge Aasimars ability scores. This would give you the following scores. Str 15, Dex 8, Con 15, Int 8, Wis 12, Cha 16. The benefit to this is an increased Wisdom save that would be at least a +10 save later on which highly beneficial being a Paladin. After this I would take the feats in this order:
PAM (Res Con)
GWM* (PAM)
Sentinel* (GWM)*
Res Con (Sentinel)*
Slasher (ASI Cha +2)
Normally I would take res con at lvl 4 just because of how clutch it ends up being but I see the benefits on not delaying what you want your character to do. So I recommend if you want your core feats on line first do what is not in parenthesis. If your fine delaying it by a little Res Con if very good to have at early level. If so take it at lvl 4 and do what I put in parenthesis. I personally would take it at lvl 4. Further what I would do is remove slasher and do a Charisma boost. I cover why further down. Conversely you can swap how I put GWM and Sentinel depending on what features you want online first. I would take PAM before both of these always regardless which you choose.
Now the reason I removed the ASI to str. As I said Paladins are not required to have a high Str to be effective. I proved this in an AL game I played where I had a 15 Str from lvl 1-13 and didnt have a magical weapon from lvls 1-10. I was playing a Devotion Paladin so the need of a magical weapon wasnt a priority for me. Just make sure to use your channel divinity to its maximum ability and you'll do great on hitting things. Further there are more items in 5e that increase Str than any other ability and these items bump you to an str of a 19 all the way up to 29.
To answer your pointed questions now:
1. Detailed above and given two different ways of doing such.
2. It would only put you behind the curve if you were comparing it to a vhuman PAM Sentinel Paladin or Barbarian. You're already going to be behind a PAM/Sentinel Fighter no matter what. This being said though you're a Paladin. The defacto most powerful single class in the game. Not only do you have the best healing, single turn damage cabilities, and saves, but you can extend your saves and an other aura to your allies as well. The power curve is you. Paladins boost any adventuring Party beyond their capabilities. Its also the reason why when playing with a bunch of new players an experienced Player plays a Paladin to keep the Party alive. Now I'm a Paladin main so I'm a poor example of this but it is exactly what Talisan Jaffey did when they started their campaign before he made Percy.
3. Having a 16 in Con and Cha is perfectly reasonable. I would always lean to having a higher Charisma but its a trade off when making a PAM/Sentinel Paladin as you're feat starved. Preferably I'd recommend a Charisma of 18 or 20 because Aura of protection is amazing. To put it in perspective at level 6 Aura of Protection covers a total of 24 titles around you. At lvl 18 this extends to 168 tiles around you. As a Vengeance Paladin though you are less reliant on Charisma compared to a Devotion.
4. No you're Dex and Int are not to low. These are going to be +2 but that is still higher than any other class that has an 8 as an ability score. Your wisdom not doing it how I suggested would be a +8 at the lowest if you did your stat set up. having a +10 or higher starts putting you virtually in Auto save territory.
Thank you for your insightful response! I've been doing a lot of theorycrafting in my spare time to try and deepen my understanding of the game (and to keep me sane during this pandemic), and working around the Paladin's MADness is something I struggle with without that oh-so-popular Hexblade dip - I keep getting stuck on the notion of pumping the primary stat to 20 and not having any odd numbers by the time I reach max level. I think I keep forgetting that there are a lot of abilities baked in that makes hitting stuff a lot easier.
You've given me something to think about, so thanks again!
Here's an important question: where is this paladin going to be played? Is it going to be played in AL (specifically historic) where you can be assured you'll reach lvl 20? If that's the case, you can easily plan around magic items being a given factor instead of an unknown factor. In that case, go for both PAM and Sentinel right away and pick up a pair of ogre gauntlets when you can, then a belt of giant strength in tier 2, and so forth.
Is it a home campaign with friends? Then, chances are you -won't- see lvl 20, let alone lvl 12. If that's the case, you have to ask yourself if fun is your most important factor going in a game, and if that's the case, you definitely want to grab PAM+ Sentinel by lvl 8 if only because that's what'll bring you satisfaction and not being "on curve" or whatever.
Theorycrafting will tell you that you should grab PAM first, as that will increase DPR more than anything else, and that you should grab STR or GWM second. That's what looking at DPR will tell you, but that's probably not your fantasy. You'll be behind the curve, but in reality it's not by much because PAM+sentinel isn't too different from PAM+STR, you know? But so what? if that's what you think feels right, go for it.
No problem! People get focused on the Paladin's MADness a lot. I tend to take it a step further with adding in Wisdom as a priority as well but trust me it makes a very effective character. I've never been a fan of hexadins I think they are overhyped and seen many a one thinking they were the best at everything fail repeatedly when compared to a straight class, but thats another discussion entirely. Don't worry alot of people have that conception about odd numbers. The biggest thing people forget is their abilities that they have and can use on a regular basis. Like I said I'm a Paladin main so if you have any questions feel free to ask.
This is one of many characters I hope to play at some point. I'm not very familiar with AL and pretty much just play home campaigns with friends, so yeah level 20 is a bit of a pipe dream!
I recommend the heck out of trying AL, specifically online through discord servers. You'll be playing all those character ideas in no time, and then some.
I'll have to give it a go! I've got two campaigns going at the moment, and a third starting soon. No such thing as too much D&D :)
Also consider taking the bludgeoning feat for the end of your stick. This allows you to push an enemy once per turn. If you want to use a plain old spear, it keeps the build without requiring reach weapons. The PAM and Sentinel feat combo is one of my favorites in the game. It's great especially for vengeance paladins who get to move when taking opportunity attacks.
My only good homebrews: Races, Subclasses.
An aspiring DM and Homebrewer. Ask me if you need anything.
My DM allowed me to learn Sentinel Feat in game. He found guidance from fellow DM's to have my character do two things. One, my character needs to NOT take 20 opportunity attacks (the idea being my character is "learning" how his attackers move and use their weapons during an attack). Two, my Palidan needs to find (in game) someone skilled in the Sentinel ability to "train" my Pally (an NPC of course). For that I will rely on my DM to provide that trainer when he feels the time is right.
I am currently 7th level and have been "collecting" my 20 time of NOT taking OPP attacks during 6th level and now 7th. I have so far not taken 10 out of my 20 required (I did take some OPP attacks now and then when the battle seemed to demand it).
In game I also found during a role play in a city who the NPC is who could train me. So now I have a side quest to find that trainer.
I admit that I am struggling with the value of ultimately gaining the Sentinel feat without burning an ASI versus not taking 20 OPP attacks during battles.
It is a balance of the DM not wanting to just give Feats away, over what my character has to sacrifice to earn the Feat.