Vengeance loves hexblade's curse for the increased crit range. Especially on a half elf with elven accuracy.
Devotion loves stacking cha to hit multpile times with hex warrior and their channel divinity, but it's hard to square the hex dip with the tenets of the oath in terms of narrative.
Conquest loves hex warrior letting them use cha to attack, since they already fabor cha over strength to land their frighten effects.
Oathbreaker loves stacking cha to damage multiple times, especially on a polearm master build for the extra bonus action attack.
Other oaths get less from hexblade, but still get a lot.
The 'single ability score dependancy' of a hexadin is overstated. As mentioned, you still need a good con score for hp and concentration, and you still need either 15 strength for heavy armor OR 14 dex for medium armor plus 13 strength to multiclass, which is even more expensive in terms of point buy than just getting the 15 strength on its own. Plus no character in 5e, especially the party tank, wants to deal with low scores in dexterity and wisdom. So even with hex warrior, a hexadin is still among the more mad builds in the game.
Mostly what hex warrior spares you is a couple late game ASIs spent to bring your casting stat up after your weapon attack, since you'll get to raise casting and weapon stats at the same time. And most campaigns don't even ladt long enough to see the ASIs you'll free up this way. Plus, sword and board hexadins /really/ want War Caster to cast Shield with their hands full. Its not a bad feat for pallys regardless, but its eating into the ASIs that hex warrior was supposedly sparing you.
In terms of level split, almost any works. Just one level of warlock gets you hex warrior, hexblade's cursd, Shield, Booming Blade, Eldritch Blast, and a single spell slot per short rest for Shield or Divine Strike. You lose the oath capstone from paladin, but still get all other features including 5th level paladin spells, expanded aura range, and all ASIs.
Two levels of warlock gives up the 19th levrl paladin ASI, but keeps everything else and gets you a second short rest slot plus invocations.
19/1 and 18/2 splits are popular for conquerors, who get more out of later paladin levels than many other oaths.
Three levels of warlock pushes the aura expansion out of your build, and in exchange bumps your short rest slots up to level two and gets you a pact boon. Pact of the blade is obligatory for hexadins who want yo use two handed weapons like greatswords or halberds, or for the rare dual wielding hexadin. Hexadins who stick to a single one handed weapon might be better off with the utility offered by book's cantrips & rituals or chain's special familiar. Sword & board hexadins focused on tanking should consider chain for the 'gift of the everliving ones' invocation which improves the efficiency of healing spells used on them. This isn't a popular end point for conquerors, who dont value second level slots much more than first level slots, and are loath to give up on the aura expansion, but other oaths like this split a bit more, as a pair of second level smites per rest does a lot for more damage oriented builds.
4 levels of warlock puts you back on track for ASIs, but costs you 5th level paladin spells. Depending on your build this may be a valid trade.
5th level warlock gets you third level pact slots, and conquerors suddenly become intetested again due to short rest Fear.
Once you give up on 5th level slots, many paladins are willing to cut all the way back to 13 for improved find steed, 11 for improved divine smite, 9 for 3rd level pally spells, 7 for oath aura, or 6 for aura of protection. Or might stop at any ASI level to maintain that progression.
So 13/7, 12/8, 11/9, 9/11, 8/12, 7/13, and 6/14 are all reasonable splits depending on what paladin spells and features you value in your build. More levels of warlock will consistantly reward you with better warlock casting and more hexblade features. Again, almost any split works.
You can also mix sorcerer into the build, particularly divine soul, as metamagic is highly useful for a gishy melee caster.
Vuman or half elf Vengeance or Oathbreaker 8, hexblade 3, divine soul 9, with polearm master, sentinel, elven accuracy if half elf, wielding a halberd or glaive, is a reasonable smitey, controlley, crit-fishy melee damage build with a lot of interesting options and abilities.
I'm currently considering something like Paladin 6 / Hex 2 / Sorc 12 am I a crazy person or is this a solid build?
The nice thing about these classes is the all depend on CHA for spell casting. You would not be mad and Hex would allow you to focus all attention on your CHA stat. In term of optimization I think it depends upon which subclass you go with for each class.
lets say you make an attack with two-handed weapon, 2d6+(modif) along with cantrip green-flame 1d8 , can you also use smite along with all this?
The reason why GFB isn't the go-to answer is that it's a spell and that means you don't get any extra attacks. So once you hit lvl5 of any martial class like paladin, GFB goes into a whole different matrix of comparing attack options. It's situational at best and it's typically comparable to extra attack for on-hit dmg but remember you reduce your chances to crit when you take 1 attack instead of 2+. GFB get's even worse when you hit lvl11 and get Improved Divine smite. Overall GFB is truly only opportune IMHO when you have two targets 5ft from eachother and you really don't want/can't get close to that 2nd target (i.e. narrow 5ft corridor)
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It doesn't matter how smart you think are you. No one will want to work with you if you're an *******.
The melee cantrips aren't particularly good on any martial class with access to extra attack for the reasons that UltraViolence says. If they are stuck with a single attack like Cleric or Rogue then there's an argument for them.
That's why Paladin builds that use Magic Initiate (Warlock) take Eldritch Blast and a utility cantrip like Mage Hand.
lets say you make an attack with two-handed weapon, 2d6+(modif) along with cantrip green-flame 1d8 , can you also use smite along with all this?
The reason why GFB isn't the go-to answer is that it's a spell and that means you don't get any extra attacks. So once you hit lvl5 of any martial class like paladin, GFB goes into a whole different matrix of comparing attack options. It's situational at best and it's typically comparable to extra attack for on-hit dmg but remember you reduce your chances to crit when you take 1 attack instead of 2+. GFB get's even worse when you hit lvl11 and get Improved Divine smite. Overall GFB is truly only opportune IMHO when you have two targets 5ft from eachother and you really don't want/can't get close to that 2nd target (i.e. narrow 5ft corridor)
oh i see... i didnt know that you cant use the extra attack after that.. but it is pretty decent for the first 4 lvls right? i had the wrong impression that the green fire can be applied normally to the first attack and you can use extra attack as normal as it can get. weill yes if you cant get the extra attack its dmg loss.
The melee cantrips aren't particularly good on any martial class with access to extra attack for the reasons that UltraViolence says. If they are stuck with a single attack like Cleric or Rogue then there's an argument for them.
That's why Paladin builds that use Magic Initiate (Warlock) take Eldritch Blast and a utility cantrip like Mage Hand.
I didnt know that you get Eldritch Blast.. well im building my char for the next campaign i will note this.
I recently played around with some math: there's a lot of assumptions built into this, like that you have +5 mod and that you always hit, both of which are ridiculous but there you have it. you can compare GFB 2h. I didn't use GWF because I think that generally, Defense is a better fighting style. but GWF will yield 8.3 on hit on average so it makes little difference(up from maybe 6.5 or 7dmg)for 2 attack actions, assumed both of which are hits. Eldritch blast is assumed upgraded from invocations. My math is FAR from perfect. it's very simplified, doesn't incorporate things like extra criticals from feats like elven accuracy etc.
This is a Hexblade(3) build with paladin main class progression. (also assumes that level 8 is the level when you reach paladin 5)
lets say you make an attack with two-handed weapon, 2d6+(modif) along with cantrip green-flame 1d8 , can you also use smite along with all this?
The reason why GFB isn't the go-to answer is that it's a spell and that means you don't get any extra attacks. So once you hit lvl5 of any martial class like paladin, GFB goes into a whole different matrix of comparing attack options. It's situational at best and it's typically comparable to extra attack for on-hit dmg but remember you reduce your chances to crit when you take 1 attack instead of 2+. GFB get's even worse when you hit lvl11 and get Improved Divine smite. Overall GFB is truly only opportune IMHO when you have two targets 5ft from eachother and you really don't want/can't get close to that 2nd target (i.e. narrow 5ft corridor)
oh i see... i didnt know that you cant use the extra attack after that.. but it is pretty decent for the first 4 lvls right? i had the wrong impression that the green fire can be applied normally to the first attack and you can use extra attack as normal as it can get. weill yes if you cant get the extra attack its dmg loss.
The melee cantrips aren't particularly good on any martial class with access to extra attack for the reasons that UltraViolence says. If they are stuck with a single attack like Cleric or Rogue then there's an argument for them.
That's why Paladin builds that use Magic Initiate (Warlock) take Eldritch Blast and a utility cantrip like Mage Hand.
I didnt know that you get Eldritch Blast.. well im building my char for the next campaign i will note this.
Yes GFB is a way to have some sort of "extra attack-ish" for the first few lvls, but once you have Extra attack, you'll be using it more often than using GFB, simply because if you have more attack rolls, you get more chances to crit, and if you are a vengeance Pally with Vow of Enmity your Crit chances have just doubled(adv on atk rolls for a minute)
Now not to say that there is no ways to make a viable use of GFB, but since it needs more work than simply be lvl5 Pal or Warlock, usually people don't see the point.
Off the ways you can still use GFB is if you take 3 lvl dips into sorceror for the Quickend Meta magic, letting you Extra attack normaly, then for a BA you can GFB(since Quicken lets you cast a 1 action spell as a BA ).
Or if you have a really generous Dm and you get your hands on the infamous Illusionists Bracers, -when you cast a cantrip, for a BA you cast the same cantrip again.
But all of this require some investement, you're better just sticking to extra attack.
Now a tool that can be fun to have is the Booming blade cantrip, and the Warcaster feat( well Warcaster is pretty much mandatory when you're a frontline Gish charater anyways), wich lets you roll Adv on concentration rolls, but also lets you cast a spell when doing an Attack of opportunity, so when something triggers an AO from you, you can use Booming blade, wich will deal etra damage to the target when it moves away from you.
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"Normality is but an Illusion, Whats normal to the Spider, is only madness for the Fly"
Thematically, the Oath of Vengeance seems to complement the dark nature of the Hexblade Patron. Depending on your alignment and how you choose to flavor your patron, the Oath of Conquest or Oathbreaker (if allowed) could also make a really interesting choice.
Not to dissuade you from Vengeance Hexblade, but keep in mind, it takes a while to get to full steam in a particular fight. Vow of Enmity, Hexblade's Curse and Hex are all bonus actions. So it's not really until turn four that you will have all of them up. Now you will have them for the really, really big fights, when you need them. But realize that's a lot of things using up bonus actions, so if the monster is going to die by turn four...maybe don't use all of your abilities in that fight.
Not to dissuade you from Vengeance Hexblade, but keep in mind, it takes a while to get to full steam in a particular fight. Vow of Enmity, Hexblade's Curse and Hex are all bonus actions. So it's not really until turn four that you will have all of them up. Now you will have them for the really, really big fights, when you need them. But realize that's a lot of things using up bonus actions, so if the monster is going to die by turn four...maybe don't use all of your abilities in that fight.
While I fully agree on the bonus action bloat, with curse and vow, we should remind ourselves that both are ultimately back on a short rest. Even if you use both to fish for a crit and earn a significant double smite, using both pact slots, you'll be fine as you still have your paladin slots, your warlock invocations, etc.
In both cases, you want to have a maxed CHA, a reasonably high CON, and some amount of STR and DEX depending on the build. Ultimately you end up with 3 stats you want to be at a decent level as opposed to 2 for most classes. Giving up that ASI could really impact that. Luckily there is only a feat or two that is really key for the builds so it may not be as big of a deal.
I have to say that this particular problem is one that a Paladin deals with regardless most of the time. I would argue that while there are some obvious dex benefits it is mostly a wasted stat in this case and Hexblade solves the Paladins problem of needing to pour points in both STR and CHA to be useful by allowing you to treat 16 as your hard cap for strength. Your pact weapons charisma attack will allow CHA to be your main source for all damage instead of just spells and if you have a good starting roll that allows you to cap that str at 16 you can treat CHA and CON as your only stats worth investing in and be well on your way. Granted what you said is still completely true, but paladins have always needed three main stats (str, con, cha) and in the case of a hexblade it lets you cut off that str requirement early enough to skip dropping two ASI on it. This works especially well if you are going Pal 17/lock 3 because it synergizes with the one ASI you would lose as a paladin capped at 17, still allow you to access your 5th level paladin spell slot, your pact boon and your 2nd level warlock slots making it very efficient.
Again though it all matter how well or poorly you roll or if you are using point buy. In a 27 point buy case you could easily coast as a variant human with 16/8/15/8/8/16 and never have to worry about your strength again.
My half elf paladin point buy, started out as 16/10/16/8/8/16. So very similar build.
One of my good friends had much mirth that my 8 int, was only slightly higher than my warhorse (6 int) from Find Steed! His comment was that if the warhorse ever gives me advice...I should probably listen! lol
I've been playing some versions of these sorts of builds. There are two types-Either mainly paladin or mainly warlock. I always choose mainly warlock because I dislike paladins(they are powerful and all, but I dislike roleplaying them). With that type of build, you go Hexblade 18/Paladin 2. I know, you don't get an aura effect. I know, your lay on hands pool is tiny. But see that mastermind evil villain that the king(quite possibly one of your party members) has no idea about but you discovered using detect evil and good? In the social scene before the villain reveals his plot and takes over the kingdom, cast hex on him and hexblades curse. Cast mystic arcanum foresight on yourself. Then summon your pact of the blade greatsword and swing at him twice(thirsting blade). +12 to hit(5 for chr because of hex warrior, +6 proficiency bonus, +1 improved pact weapon.) with advantage(foresight). Let's assume you don't make any crits(19s and 20s because of hexblade curse). 2d6(greatsword)+5(chr)+6(proficiency modifier for hexblade curse)+1d6(hex)+14d8(7d6 for elriditch smite, 7d6 for divine smite using 5th level slots for both)+1(improved hex weapon. Average 78.5 damage for one attack, 157 for both. This build will kill a lich in 1 turn. But wait. Unlike the commando build, you can still do something. Still +12 and advantage to hit, and you do 2d6+5+6+1d6+1 for an average of 22.5 damage(45 considering thirsting blade). And you still have a spell slot left. That will earn you 2d8 damage(average 9). You are so OP. And by the way, your intimidation of +11 keeps anyone from stopping you, considering they think the lich is a respected noble(you also have persuasion +11).
For anyone wondering, you go 2 levels paladin at the start and levels 3-20 are warlock.
So much better than a guy who can heal as an action, or summon a sword as an action. The auras are kind of overrated anyway.
It all depends on the playstyle you are looking for. I like more levels in paladin. I probably wouldn't be a paladin and not go to at least level 6...and I like some of the other paladin features on down the line. I like roleplaying a paladin too. To me, a paladin is a person with conviction and a faith. That paladin doesn't have to have a "goody two shoes" personality. I view a paladin as an avenger, a justice dealer, willing to destroy evil at all costs (yes, my paladins are good alignment only), but also show charity and compassion for the poor, the needy, etc. I tend to give away large amounts of my gold in roleplay, to worthy causes. His attitude is always "my god will provide."
Auras are overrated??? Definitely have to disagree with you there! lol ;)
I respect your opinion though, understanding we all can focus on different aspects of the game. Thus, I "liked" your opinion. One opinion isn't more valid, than the next. We just see it differently. Both classes are so good and strong, you can make a good argument for almost any split of the two classes. A paladin 18 / warlock 2, is also really good. Take your pick, play the character you want. Paladins and warlocks just synergize quite well!
2d6(greatsword)+5(chr)+6(proficiency modifier for hexblade curse)+1d6(hex)+14d8(7d6 for elriditch smite, 7d6for divine smite using 5th level slots for both)+1(improved hex weapon.
I don't disagree that this is a lot of damage. But you're off a little bit, with your smites.
You switch from the correct formulation of d8s, to then be d6s in your parenthetical comment. A smite, eldritch or divine, is a d8, not a d6. Also, the max you can smite on an Eldritch Smite is 6d8, not 7. Divine Smite has a max of 5d8, with the caveat of 6d8 vs undead/fiends. So no 7d8 Divine Smite, just 5 or 6, depending on what you are smiting.
2d6(greatsword)+5(chr)+6(proficiency modifier for hexblade curse)+1d6(hex)+14d8(7d6 for elriditch smite, 7d6for divine smite using 5th level slots for both)+1(improved hex weapon.
I don't disagree that this is a lot of damage. But you're off a little bit, with your smites.
You switch from the correct formulation of d8s, to then be d6s in your parenthetical comment. A smite, eldritch or divine, is a d8, not a d6. Also, the max you can smite on an Eldritch Smite is 6d8, not 7. Divine Smite has a max of 5d8, with the caveat of 6d8 vs undead/fiends. So no 7d8 Divine Smite, just 5 or 6, depending on what you are smiting.
Oath of Vengenace paladin combined with Hexblade warlock will make you a boss-shredder. Combine hunter's mark with Hexblade's Curse. At higher levels, replace hunter's mark with spirit shroud or haste. Take 3 levels in warlock so you can get Pact of The Blade. That will allow you to use a two-handed weapon as a hex weapon. For invocations, take Eldritch Mind (which negates the nessacity of War Caster or Resilient (Constitution)). The other invocation should be a more utilitarian invocation, or just whatever fits your character ascetic. I would recommend Devil's Sight, so you can surroud the enemy with darkness, imposing disadvantage on the target's attack rolls while giving you advantage.
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Brains over brawn? Mind over matter? These canny warriors rightly answer, "Why not both?" - Tasha
Honestly am I crazy to consider a 10/10 Build? Oath of Devotion/ Hexblade. I mean you get 5th lvl spells (from Warlock) neat Invocations like Levitate as much as you want, Including Eldrich blast of course and you get even Hex Armor which is really cool, but doesnt even seem to be an Consideration here.
On The Paladin side. you get the extra attack, the Aura of Protection, Anti Mind control Aura from devotion and even anti fear Aura. Also reaching lvl3 Palaslots for Guardians.
Only downside is the lower Ability raise (4), but overall it seems to be an really strong and still Tanky Utility build. Race Kobolt (advantage for everyone is great)
However throwing 1 Lvl Barbarian into the Mix to get even Tankier (removing the anti fear Aura) is an Consideration too.
Honestly am I crazy to consider a 10/10 Build? Oath of Devotion/ Hexblade. I mean you get 5th lvl spells (from Warlock) neat Invocations like Levitate as much as you want, Including Eldrich blast of course and you get even Hex Armor which is really cool, but doesnt even seem to be an Consideration here.
On The Paladin side. you get the extra attack, the Aura of Protection, Anti Mind control Aura from devotion and even anti fear Aura. Also reaching lvl3 Palaslots for Guardians.
Only downside is the lower Ability raise (4), but overall it seems to be an really strong and still Tanky Utility build. Race Kobolt (advantage for everyone is great)
However throwing 1 Lvl Barbarian into the Mix to get even Tankier (removing the anti fear Aura) is an Consideration too.
Why do you value armor of hexes as much as you do? It's only good for one attack, and chances are you would have used your reaction to cast the shield spell instead. You're giving up Improved Divine Smite just so you can gain access to armor of hexes. Is armor of hexes good? It can be, but improved divine smite is ALWAYS good and ALWAYS active.
So, right off the bat I think it's safe to say that this build has been revised and improved to 11 paladin levels and 9 warlock levels, an-- oh gee what do you know, 11/9 is a very common and talked about split.
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For oaths:
Vengeance loves hexblade's curse for the increased crit range. Especially on a half elf with elven accuracy.
Devotion loves stacking cha to hit multpile times with hex warrior and their channel divinity, but it's hard to square the hex dip with the tenets of the oath in terms of narrative.
Conquest loves hex warrior letting them use cha to attack, since they already fabor cha over strength to land their frighten effects.
Oathbreaker loves stacking cha to damage multiple times, especially on a polearm master build for the extra bonus action attack.
Other oaths get less from hexblade, but still get a lot.
The 'single ability score dependancy' of a hexadin is overstated. As mentioned, you still need a good con score for hp and concentration, and you still need either 15 strength for heavy armor OR 14 dex for medium armor plus 13 strength to multiclass, which is even more expensive in terms of point buy than just getting the 15 strength on its own. Plus no character in 5e, especially the party tank, wants to deal with low scores in dexterity and wisdom. So even with hex warrior, a hexadin is still among the more mad builds in the game.
Mostly what hex warrior spares you is a couple late game ASIs spent to bring your casting stat up after your weapon attack, since you'll get to raise casting and weapon stats at the same time. And most campaigns don't even ladt long enough to see the ASIs you'll free up this way. Plus, sword and board hexadins /really/ want War Caster to cast Shield with their hands full. Its not a bad feat for pallys regardless, but its eating into the ASIs that hex warrior was supposedly sparing you.
In terms of level split, almost any works. Just one level of warlock gets you hex warrior, hexblade's cursd, Shield, Booming Blade, Eldritch Blast, and a single spell slot per short rest for Shield or Divine Strike. You lose the oath capstone from paladin, but still get all other features including 5th level paladin spells, expanded aura range, and all ASIs.
Two levels of warlock gives up the 19th levrl paladin ASI, but keeps everything else and gets you a second short rest slot plus invocations.
19/1 and 18/2 splits are popular for conquerors, who get more out of later paladin levels than many other oaths.
Three levels of warlock pushes the aura expansion out of your build, and in exchange bumps your short rest slots up to level two and gets you a pact boon. Pact of the blade is obligatory for hexadins who want yo use two handed weapons like greatswords or halberds, or for the rare dual wielding hexadin. Hexadins who stick to a single one handed weapon might be better off with the utility offered by book's cantrips & rituals or chain's special familiar. Sword & board hexadins focused on tanking should consider chain for the 'gift of the everliving ones' invocation which improves the efficiency of healing spells used on them. This isn't a popular end point for conquerors, who dont value second level slots much more than first level slots, and are loath to give up on the aura expansion, but other oaths like this split a bit more, as a pair of second level smites per rest does a lot for more damage oriented builds.
4 levels of warlock puts you back on track for ASIs, but costs you 5th level paladin spells. Depending on your build this may be a valid trade.
5th level warlock gets you third level pact slots, and conquerors suddenly become intetested again due to short rest Fear.
Once you give up on 5th level slots, many paladins are willing to cut all the way back to 13 for improved find steed, 11 for improved divine smite, 9 for 3rd level pally spells, 7 for oath aura, or 6 for aura of protection. Or might stop at any ASI level to maintain that progression.
So 13/7, 12/8, 11/9, 9/11, 8/12, 7/13, and 6/14 are all reasonable splits depending on what paladin spells and features you value in your build. More levels of warlock will consistantly reward you with better warlock casting and more hexblade features. Again, almost any split works.
You can also mix sorcerer into the build, particularly divine soul, as metamagic is highly useful for a gishy melee caster.
Vuman or half elf Vengeance or Oathbreaker 8, hexblade 3, divine soul 9, with polearm master, sentinel, elven accuracy if half elf, wielding a halberd or glaive, is a reasonable smitey, controlley, crit-fishy melee damage build with a lot of interesting options and abilities.
The nice thing about these classes is the all depend on CHA for spell casting. You would not be mad and Hex would allow you to focus all attention on your CHA stat. In term of optimization I think it depends upon which subclass you go with for each class.
This topic might be what i was searching for..
can someone answer in this question
lets say you make an attack with two-handed weapon, 2d6+(modif) along with cantrip green-flame 1d8 , can you also use smite along with all this?
Yes you can. Both only work upon a hit from a melee weapon attack. So you would simply add them to the weapon damage.
https://www.sageadvice.eu/2018/04/22/green-flame-blade-hex-divine-smite-how-many-damage-rolls-are-there/
The reason why GFB isn't the go-to answer is that it's a spell and that means you don't get any extra attacks. So once you hit lvl5 of any martial class like paladin, GFB goes into a whole different matrix of comparing attack options. It's situational at best and it's typically comparable to extra attack for on-hit dmg but remember you reduce your chances to crit when you take 1 attack instead of 2+. GFB get's even worse when you hit lvl11 and get Improved Divine smite. Overall GFB is truly only opportune IMHO when you have two targets 5ft from eachother and you really don't want/can't get close to that 2nd target (i.e. narrow 5ft corridor)
It doesn't matter how smart you think are you. No one will want to work with you if you're an *******.
The melee cantrips aren't particularly good on any martial class with access to extra attack for the reasons that UltraViolence says. If they are stuck with a single attack like Cleric or Rogue then there's an argument for them.
That's why Paladin builds that use Magic Initiate (Warlock) take Eldritch Blast and a utility cantrip like Mage Hand.
oh i see... i didnt know that you cant use the extra attack after that.. but it is pretty decent for the first 4 lvls right? i had the wrong impression that the green fire can be applied normally to the first attack and you can use extra attack as normal as it can get. weill yes if you cant get the extra attack its dmg loss.
I didnt know that you get Eldritch Blast.. well im building my char for the next campaign i will note this.
I recently played around with some math: there's a lot of assumptions built into this, like that you have +5 mod and that you always hit, both of which are ridiculous but there you have it. you can compare GFB 2h. I didn't use GWF because I think that generally, Defense is a better fighting style. but GWF will yield 8.3 on hit on average so it makes little difference(up from maybe 6.5 or 7dmg)for 2 attack actions, assumed both of which are hits. Eldritch blast is assumed upgraded from invocations. My math is FAR from perfect. it's very simplified, doesn't incorporate things like extra criticals from feats like elven accuracy etc.
This is a Hexblade(3) build with paladin main class progression. (also assumes that level 8 is the level when you reach paladin 5)
1 p, 2p , 3p, 4w, 5, 6w, 7p, 8p...20p [paladin 17 warlock 3]
Level 5 Paladin (level 4-7)
Single Target
2d6 + 5 = 12
Double Edge Scimitar
2d4 + 5 + 1d4 + 5 = 17.5
GFB
2d6 + 5
7 + 5 = 12
2 5ft target
GFB
2d6 + 5 + 5
7 + 5 + 5 = 17
Eldritch Blast (level 5+) (half for level 4 when p=3 w=1)
2d10 +10 = 21
==================================================
Level 5(paladin) (p5 w3)
Single/multi Target
Extra Attack (Level 8)
4d6 + 10 = 24
Double Edge Scimitar
5d4 + 15 = 27.5
GFB
2d6 + 1d8 + 5
7 4.5 5 = 16.5
2 5ft target
GFB
2d6 + 2d8 + 5 + 5
7 + 9 + 5 + 5 = 26
Eldritch Blast
2d10 + 10 = 21
==================================================
Level 11(paladin) Level 14
Single/multi Target
Extra Attack
Wep IDS Mods
4d6 + 2d8 + 10
14 + 9 + 10 = 33
GFB
Wep GFB IDS Mod
2d6 + 2d8+ 1d8 + 5
7 9 4.5 5 = 25.5
2 5ft target
GFB
Wep GFB GFB2 IDS MOD GFBmod
2d6 + 2d8 + 2d8 + 1d8+ 5 + 5
7 + 9 + 9 + 4.5 + 10 = 39.5
Eldritch Blast
3d10 + 15 = 31.5
==================================================
Level 17
single/multi target (non-fiend) Extra Attack
4d6+2d8+10
Wep IDS Mods
14 + 9 + 10 = 33
Green flame-blade Single target
Wep GFB IDS Mod
2d6 + 3d8 + 1d8 + 5 = 30
7 13.5 4.5 5
Green flame-blade multi target
Wep GFB IDS Mods
2d6 + 6d8+ 1d8 + 10 = 49.5
Eldritch blast
4d10 +20 = 42
It doesn't matter how smart you think are you. No one will want to work with you if you're an *******.
Yes GFB is a way to have some sort of "extra attack-ish" for the first few lvls, but once you have Extra attack, you'll be using it more often than using GFB, simply because if you have more attack rolls, you get more chances to crit, and if you are a vengeance Pally with Vow of Enmity your Crit chances have just doubled(adv on atk rolls for a minute)
Now not to say that there is no ways to make a viable use of GFB, but since it needs more work than simply be lvl5 Pal or Warlock, usually people don't see the point.
Off the ways you can still use GFB is if you take 3 lvl dips into sorceror for the Quickend Meta magic, letting you Extra attack normaly, then for a BA you can GFB(since Quicken lets you cast a 1 action spell as a BA ).
Or if you have a really generous Dm and you get your hands on the infamous Illusionists Bracers, -when you cast a cantrip, for a BA you cast the same cantrip again.
But all of this require some investement, you're better just sticking to extra attack.
Now a tool that can be fun to have is the Booming blade cantrip, and the Warcaster feat( well Warcaster is pretty much mandatory when you're a frontline Gish charater anyways), wich lets you roll Adv on concentration rolls, but also lets you cast a spell when doing an Attack of opportunity, so when something triggers an AO from you, you can use Booming blade, wich will deal etra damage to the target when it moves away from you.
"Normality is but an Illusion, Whats normal to the Spider, is only madness for the Fly"
Kain de Frostberg- Dark Knight - (Vengeance Pal3/ Hexblade 9), Port Mourn
Kain de Draakberg-Dark Knight lvl8-Avergreen(DitA)
Not to dissuade you from Vengeance Hexblade, but keep in mind, it takes a while to get to full steam in a particular fight. Vow of Enmity, Hexblade's Curse and Hex are all bonus actions. So it's not really until turn four that you will have all of them up. Now you will have them for the really, really big fights, when you need them. But realize that's a lot of things using up bonus actions, so if the monster is going to die by turn four...maybe don't use all of your abilities in that fight.
While I fully agree on the bonus action bloat, with curse and vow, we should remind ourselves that both are ultimately back on a short rest. Even if you use both to fish for a crit and earn a significant double smite, using both pact slots, you'll be fine as you still have your paladin slots, your warlock invocations, etc.
My half elf paladin point buy, started out as 16/10/16/8/8/16. So very similar build.
One of my good friends had much mirth that my 8 int, was only slightly higher than my warhorse (6 int) from Find Steed! His comment was that if the warhorse ever gives me advice...I should probably listen! lol
I've been playing some versions of these sorts of builds. There are two types-Either mainly paladin or mainly warlock. I always choose mainly warlock because I dislike paladins(they are powerful and all, but I dislike roleplaying them). With that type of build, you go Hexblade 18/Paladin 2. I know, you don't get an aura effect. I know, your lay on hands pool is tiny. But see that mastermind evil villain that the king(quite possibly one of your party members) has no idea about but you discovered using detect evil and good? In the social scene before the villain reveals his plot and takes over the kingdom, cast hex on him and hexblades curse. Cast mystic arcanum foresight on yourself. Then summon your pact of the blade greatsword and swing at him twice(thirsting blade). +12 to hit(5 for chr because of hex warrior, +6 proficiency bonus, +1 improved pact weapon.) with advantage(foresight). Let's assume you don't make any crits(19s and 20s because of hexblade curse). 2d6(greatsword)+5(chr)+6(proficiency modifier for hexblade curse)+1d6(hex)+14d8(7d6 for elriditch smite, 7d6 for divine smite using 5th level slots for both)+1(improved hex weapon. Average 78.5 damage for one attack, 157 for both. This build will kill a lich in 1 turn. But wait. Unlike the commando build, you can still do something. Still +12 and advantage to hit, and you do 2d6+5+6+1d6+1 for an average of 22.5 damage(45 considering thirsting blade). And you still have a spell slot left. That will earn you 2d8 damage(average 9). You are so OP. And by the way, your intimidation of +11 keeps anyone from stopping you, considering they think the lich is a respected noble(you also have persuasion +11).
For anyone wondering, you go 2 levels paladin at the start and levels 3-20 are warlock.
So much better than a guy who can heal as an action, or summon a sword as an action. The auras are kind of overrated anyway.
It all depends on the playstyle you are looking for. I like more levels in paladin. I probably wouldn't be a paladin and not go to at least level 6...and I like some of the other paladin features on down the line. I like roleplaying a paladin too. To me, a paladin is a person with conviction and a faith. That paladin doesn't have to have a "goody two shoes" personality. I view a paladin as an avenger, a justice dealer, willing to destroy evil at all costs (yes, my paladins are good alignment only), but also show charity and compassion for the poor, the needy, etc. I tend to give away large amounts of my gold in roleplay, to worthy causes. His attitude is always "my god will provide."
Auras are overrated??? Definitely have to disagree with you there! lol ;)
I respect your opinion though, understanding we all can focus on different aspects of the game. Thus, I "liked" your opinion. One opinion isn't more valid, than the next. We just see it differently. Both classes are so good and strong, you can make a good argument for almost any split of the two classes. A paladin 18 / warlock 2, is also really good. Take your pick, play the character you want. Paladins and warlocks just synergize quite well!
I don't disagree that this is a lot of damage. But you're off a little bit, with your smites.
You switch from the correct formulation of d8s, to then be d6s in your parenthetical comment. A smite, eldritch or divine, is a d8, not a d6. Also, the max you can smite on an Eldritch Smite is 6d8, not 7. Divine Smite has a max of 5d8, with the caveat of 6d8 vs undead/fiends. So no 7d8 Divine Smite, just 5 or 6, depending on what you are smiting.
There was a PM to me about this. I get the point.
Oath of Vengenace paladin combined with Hexblade warlock will make you a boss-shredder. Combine hunter's mark with Hexblade's Curse. At higher levels, replace hunter's mark with spirit shroud or haste. Take 3 levels in warlock so you can get Pact of The Blade. That will allow you to use a two-handed weapon as a hex weapon. For invocations, take Eldritch Mind (which negates the nessacity of War Caster or Resilient (Constitution)). The other invocation should be a more utilitarian invocation, or just whatever fits your character ascetic. I would recommend Devil's Sight, so you can surroud the enemy with darkness, imposing disadvantage on the target's attack rolls while giving you advantage.
Brains over brawn? Mind over matter? These canny warriors rightly answer, "Why not both?" - Tasha
My Homebrews: Monsters, Magic Items, Spells, Races
Rhulg- Hobgoblin Gunsmith
Honestly am I crazy to consider a 10/10 Build? Oath of Devotion/ Hexblade. I mean you get 5th lvl spells (from Warlock) neat Invocations like Levitate as much as you want, Including Eldrich blast of course and you get even Hex Armor which is really cool, but doesnt even seem to be an Consideration here.
On The Paladin side. you get the extra attack, the Aura of Protection, Anti Mind control Aura from devotion and even anti fear Aura. Also reaching lvl3 Palaslots for Guardians.
Only downside is the lower Ability raise (4), but overall it seems to be an really strong and still Tanky Utility build. Race Kobolt (advantage for everyone is great)
However throwing 1 Lvl Barbarian into the Mix to get even Tankier (removing the anti fear Aura) is an Consideration too.
Why do you value armor of hexes as much as you do? It's only good for one attack, and chances are you would have used your reaction to cast the shield spell instead. You're giving up Improved Divine Smite just so you can gain access to armor of hexes. Is armor of hexes good? It can be, but improved divine smite is ALWAYS good and ALWAYS active.
So, right off the bat I think it's safe to say that this build has been revised and improved to 11 paladin levels and 9 warlock levels, an-- oh gee what do you know, 11/9 is a very common and talked about split.