You get a plus 1 for the meme alone. The rest of it was worthy as well.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
I've got a few of those memes, leftover from a conquest guide I was writing and never finished:
this next one I'm particularly proud of:
...
I made all the above. Here's one more I didn't make, but that was too good to pass up:
I mean, granted, it's not at all accurate. Edgelord anti-paladins have existed in the rules since second edition at least. I particularly liked 4e's take on the blackguard. But still, I like the spirit, and I'm a sucker for a good Rita meme.
In order for a Dex Based Paladin to have close to the same AC as a STR based from level 2 onward, where most paladins can get Plate armor in modules. The Earliest that a Dex based Paladin could be 1 point behind a STR based Paladin is lvl 8. If this is a Duel wielding Paladin it is never gonna match a generic S&B Paladin in AC. This means a STR Paladin with plate at Lvl 2 can have a 20 AC buffed to 22 and only increases from there.
Second someone mentioned Defensive duelist. Anyone with a Finesse weapon and a Dex of 13 can take that. Yes I make several STR based Paladins around Defensive Duelist.
Third as I stated there are more items that increase STR and increase it beyond 20 more than any other stat. So please with Items like Belts of Hill, Storm, Fire, etc. Giant Strength, which increases your STR to 25 explain how a Dex Paladin can Compete in overall average damage against any STR Paladin with any of these belts.
All this being said with this built a lvl 20 Str based Paladin can have a Str 21+ Dex 14 Con 18 Int 8 Wis 12 Chr 18 with Resilient Con and Tough as feats. Giving you HP 244. Now going the general item list, which stats a lvl 20 player has 1 legndary, 2 very rare, and 3 rare, we can do several things to buff or boost AC or Damage to get a specific outcome so we wont factor in a weapon and assume its the legendary item. At this point based off items you can build a max AC if you would like or still high AC with higher damage. Mind you in character Creation the Str is 13 and can jump from 19 to 25 and an AC between 27 to 32 or possibly higher depending on what weapon you use. All this while have a Str the highest Dex can get or far higher. Which means you not only hit more consistently while dealing more damage.
This is what I mean when I said there is now single way any Dex Paladin can compete against a Str based Paladin. Mind you I never said that you couldn't play them. I said that they cant compete against. These are two different things. Mind you this just a very simple build that I threw together just for this. But did so to make a point. I am not saying you cant play them Im saying mechanically they are inferior and this is well know playing Paladins. Just like Duel Wielding as a Paladin is inferior to S&B and GWM
Dexadins are generally wearing medium armor. Starting heavy armor is AC16. Starting medium armor is AC13 +2 for dex, for AC15 total, one point behind heavy armor. Final heavy armor is AC18. Final medium armor is AC15 +2 2 for dex, for AC17 total, one point behind heavy armor.
So yeah, Dexadin is one point behind regular strength paladins in AC. In exchange, dexadins have better initiative and better reflex saves, which is a fair trade to me. If they want to stealth, they either need a higher dex for light armor (which they'll likely want anyway), or a feat for medium armor (which, along with a slightly higher dex, also makes up the AC difference with heavy armor), or need to accept a further -1 AC.
Regardless, a fair trade all around.
As for heavy armor characters qualifying for defensive duelist, maybe if you're a half elf. Most other races will have trouble hitting 13 dex after also maxing out their strength and charisma without cutting unacceptably into their constitution.
And when it comes to items that boost strength - those are, if anything, /better/ for dexadins. A dexadin can put on a belt of giant strength and use that high strength to poke extra hard with their rapier while still benefiting from their better initiative and reflex saves. They can even wear heavy armor if they want. If a strength paladin puts on a belt of giant strength, whatever character investment they put into strength is wasted.
Dexadins are generally wearing medium armor. Starting heavy armor is AC16. Starting medium armor is AC13 +2 for dex, for AC15 total, one point behind heavy armor. Final heavy armor is AC18. Final medium armor is AC15 +2 2 for dex, for AC17 total, one point behind heavy armor.
So yeah, Dexadin is one point behind regular strength paladins in AC. In exchange, dexadins have better initiative and better reflex saves, which is a fair trade to me. If they want to stealth, they either need a higher dex for light armor (which they'll likely want anyway), or a feat for medium armor (which, along with a slightly higher dex, also makes up the AC difference with heavy armor), or need to accept a further -1 AC.
Regardless, a fair trade all around.
As for heavy armor characters qualifying for defensive duelist, maybe if you're a half elf. Most other races will have trouble hitting 13 dex after also maxing out their strength and charisma without cutting unacceptably into their constitution.
He's basing his opinion 100% on increasing str past 20 via items /and/ the pure damage that comes from it. You'll never reach him with your common sense as to why dexterity is better for all reasons that are not pure damage. I hope he's never in a game with no magic items, because a dexadin can prop up his AC with a feat and match everything a stradin can get and be equal to a s/s stradin, and inferior in saves, ranged combat, initiative, skill checks, etc.
I don't think there's any point in mentioning that putting one of those belts he likes on a halfling with 8 dex is even better than putting it on a hill dwarf that already has 20 str because that rapier will work just the same.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Strength builds do have advantages. They multiclass easier - multiclassing a dexadin is hard to reasonably pull off in point buy for the same reason that defensive duelist his hard to take on a regular strength paladin. Heavy armor builds do have +1 AC over medium armor builds. And if you do care about dealing damage, dexadins don't have anything that compares to pole arm master or great weapon master.
But for a single classed, sword and board paladin? I'd almost be inclined to say dexadin is outright superior. Conquerors in particular do miss the high athletics for tripping, but they absolutely adore the boosted initiative. And yeah, the prevalence of strength-setting items is, if anything, a strong case *against* investing character build resources into the stat. A character with Strength 16 and dex 8 doesn't benefit from a pair of gauntlets of ogre strength nearly as much as a character with strength 8 and dex 16.
Strength builds do have advantages. They multiclass easier - multiclassing a dexadin is hard to reasonably pull off in point buy for the same reason that defensive duelist his hard to take on a regular strength paladin. Heavy armor builds do have +1 AC over medium armor builds. And if you do care about dealing damage, dexadins don't have anything that compares to pole arm master or great weapon master.
But for a single classed, sword and board paladin? I'd almost be inclined to say dexadin is outright superior. Conquerors in particular do miss the high athletics for tripping, but they absolutely adore the boosted initiative. And yeah, the prevalence of strength-setting items is, if anything, a strong case *against* investing character build resources into the stat. A character with Strength 16 and dex 8 doesn't benefit from a pair of gauntlets of ogre strength nearly as much as a character with strength 8 and dex 16.
True enough. If I were playing a single-class, s/s ONLY paladin, I'd play dex. If I were playing 2h, I'd go str. Multi-class would depend, I'd consider a 13 str paladin for MC purposes, because I HATE dumping dex. It really depends on what I am trying to do.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Why not slings with hand-made metal balls........ what kind of metal balls should be used ?? then I should tell about the spiked balls used in most of the chain clubs.
because you can't smite with a ranged weapon. You could go with a nice dagger though.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
The discussions about 2h are maybe a bit irrelevant seeing as we're talking halfling Bards here... Haven't seen a Halfy bard go str to swing that versatile Longsword around just yet :D.
it really is irrelevant. A halfling can't use heavy weapons, so they would be capped at a longsword if they wanted to go the two hand route. Rapier+dueling fighting style is better than 2 longsword used two handed, PLUS it gets a shield.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
The discussion about magic items is entirely important. There are more magic items that boost str than any other stat by a long shot almost to the point that playing in any faerun campaign, where these magic items are quite common, and putting ASI in str is idiotic. Guanlets of Ogre Strength is a common magic item and instantly boost str to 19. Belt of hill giant is a rare item. These two items in particular are not hard to come across or purchase as they are not out right as expensive other magic items. Off the top of my head there are 7 magical items that boost str to a set score and many others that provide bonuses to str. Including the Hammer of Thunderbolts that increase your Str by 4 when wielded to a max of 30.
Also playing off that an additional +1 to AC isn't that big of deal in a game where a +1 literally makes the difference between being hit and not a big deal. Hell you can literally make a Paladin where a tarrasque has to role a nat 20 to hit you if youre good at staking abilities and the like.
I will agree, that in a scenario where magic items don't exist in the game yes a dex based paladin is superior but not having magic items in a game is not a very common practice when playing on the whole. It may be the mainstream for certain groups but that's not the masses.
In my personal opinion im not all that concerned about intiative when playing a Paladin. Its not a prerogative and I've played plenty of Paladin with a -1 in dex. Built properly Paladins easily make a -1 saving throw a +4 or with correct magic items or feats if your that concerned about it much higher. Hell one of my character ideas for shits in giggles is a redemption paladin that every ASI goes into getting a resilient feat. Why because it be funny to have every save a +9 or higher, depending on your score.
In the end though everyone has different priorities on what they want to get out of a character in the game. That being said mechanically, when using point buy or standard array, no Dex Paladin is ever going to have as high of hit point, charisma, damage or AC as a str based Paladin with out suffering in one of those areas, and yes this is because of magic items but it is irrelevant that it is. They exist and as such they must be taking into account when talking about what is the most mechanically sound character if that's what you are aiming for. I've repeatedly stated however that if you want to play a character because of what ever reason play it. Don't let my opinion or anyone else's dissuade you from that choice if its what you want to play. I'm just stating what is best mechanically speaking.
And if anyone really wants to put it to the test we can put Paladin against Paladin and see whom comes out on top the majority of the time.
Think about those magic items again. Imagine a paladin picks up a pair of gauntlets of ogre power off the ground. Which paladin benefits from them more, the paladin who started the game with strength 16 and dex 8, or the paladin who started the game with strength 8 and dex 16? Remember that finesse weapons just give you the *option* to use dexterity in place of strength for melee attacks, they don't *require* you to do so.
If you pick up a belt of giant strength, then any asi's you spent on increasing your strength score are retroactively wasted, but so is any investment you put into strength during your initial character creation. Those items are flat out better for characters initially built as dexadins.
Don't get me wrong, +1 AC is great, it's a big deal. But a +2 to +4 bonus to both initiative and dexterity saves is absolutely a fair trade. Especially for a conquest paladin, as we are discussing in this thread, given their strong crowd control abilities. There is a huge difference between locking 2 to 3 enemies down with Fear and Conquering Presence before those enemies have acted vs. after.
In general, I agree that strength paladins are better. Heavy weapons are typically better for damage, and even if you're going sword and board, the multiclass options available to paladins, particularly hexblade and divine soul, are way too tempting to not even have the option of taking them later in your progression. But if you know going into the character that you're going to be a single classed sword & board paladin, something that is absolutely a viable build option for conquerors, then I do think high dex medium armor s the better call.
In no small part because you are likely to find a gauntlets of ogre power or belt of giant strength, in which event you can attune the item, don some plate, and smash things with your rapier while still enjoying the benefits of the higher initial dexterity investment to your saves and initiative
The discussion about magic items is entirely important. There are more magic items that boost str than any other stat by a long shot almost to the point that playing in any faerun campaign, where these magic items are quite common, and putting ASI in str is idiotic. Guanlets of Ogre Strength is a common magic item and instantly boost str to 19. Belt of hill giant is a rare item. These two items in particular are not hard to come across or purchase as they are not out right as expensive other magic items. Off the top of my head there are 7 magical items that boost str to a set score and many others that provide bonuses to str. Including the Hammer of Thunderbolts that increase your Str by 4 when wielded to a max of 30.
Also playing off that an additional +1 to AC isn't that big of deal in a game where a +1 literally makes the difference between being hit and not a big deal. Hell you can literally make a Paladin where a tarrasque has to role a nat 20 to hit you if youre good at staking abilities and the like.
I will agree, that in a scenario where magic items don't exist in the game yes a dex based paladin is superior but not having magic items in a game is not a very common practice when playing on the whole. It may be the mainstream for certain groups but that's not the masses.
In my personal opinion im not all that concerned about intiative when playing a Paladin. Its not a prerogative and I've played plenty of Paladin with a -1 in dex. Built properly Paladins easily make a -1 saving throw a +4 or with correct magic items or feats if your that concerned about it much higher. Hell one of my character ideas for shits in giggles is a redemption paladin that every ASI goes into getting a resilient feat. Why because it be funny to have every save a +9 or higher, depending on your score.
In the end though everyone has different priorities on what they want to get out of a character in the game. That being said mechanically, when using point buy or standard array, no Dex Paladin is ever going to have as high of hit point, charisma, damage or AC as a str based Paladin with out suffering in one of those areas, and yes this is because of magic items but it is irrelevant that it is. They exist and as such they must be taking into account when talking about what is the most mechanically sound character if that's what you are aiming for. I've repeatedly stated however that if you want to play a character because of what ever reason play it. Don't let my opinion or anyone else's dissuade you from that choice if its what you want to play. I'm just stating what is best mechanically speaking.
And if anyone really wants to put it to the test we can put Paladin against Paladin and see whom comes out on top the majority of the time.
Could you please clarify what happens if I put those str items on my dex paladin who only starts with 8 str? thanks.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
If you put Str items on a dex based Paladin well congratulations you now have split more ASI into increasing Dex than just Con and Chr. Also now do you really have a dex based paladin anymore or are you gonna use Str as your primary attack and damage which makes it a Str based Paladin and not a dex based. At this point if this is what happens you just have a Str Based Paladin with high dex. Or if your stubborn enough to Use Dex still a Dex based paladin who's highest stat is barely used outside of athletics roles.
It's a dex paladin still. You're still getting the benefits of every ASI you placed into str. The str paladin loses all of this. So, your str based paladin...congratulations on being wasteful until you managed to get the items you want. I think you have things backwards. Str is what's used for athletics, not dex. And str is /not/ used for any other skill. Dex is used for many things: Init, stealth, ranged attacks, slight of hand, acrobatics and most importantly, dex saves which are quite common. Medium armor master brings your AC up to equal plate should you want to, and removes the armor penalty so you can be sneaky if you want to.
Frankly, I am not wasting my time with con. As far as ASI, adding str and adding dex are exactly equivalent. You can either raise or ignore for the same impact on your weapon using ability.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Anyway, back to the halfling conquest paladin, yeah. It's a little off type, a little unexpected, but that can make for a very memorable character. Mechanically it works just fine, whether as a single classed dexadin or as a multiclass build, though the latter does require you to take some hits to your other scores to make that 13 strength requirement.
Having a high dex does not make a Dex Paladin. Using Dex as your weapons attribute does. So again if you boost your str with an item and still use dex you're failing to use your stats to the best application. Further the second STR becomes your primary weapons stat you are no longer a dex based Paladin. Just a Str based Paladin with high dex.
Finally Con for Paladins is insanely important. It allows you to take more hits and maintain concentration.
Additional note. If you think you can still multiclass with an 8 str but have an item that changes your stat score your wrong.
There is a fundamental miscommunication then. When I say dexadin, I mean how you /build/ the character. Not what you're doing every individual round. Build your dex character, and if you're building a single classed sword and board paladin then you'll be just as good as a character built for strength. Rapier is just as good a starting weapon as longsword, You trade one point of AC for multiple points of initiative and reflex save which is a perfectly fair trade, if not outright in your favor. You lose the ability to multiclass or wield heavy weapons, but we're working from the assumption of single class sword and board, so you've already chosen not to do that.
IF you happen to find a strength-setting magic item, then absolutely, equip that and start using strength as your weapon attack. It'll spare you raising weapon attack with ASIs, you'll be able to put on heavy armor to buy back that 1 point of AC you lost, and you'll STILL have the better initiative and reflex saves, so you go from mostly better than a similarly built character that initially built for strength to outright and objectively better than a similar character built for strength. Again, where similar means sword & board plus no multiclassing. By Draigo's definition, you've transitioned from dex character to strength character by doing so, but that's not a problem, especially as you end up as an objectively better strength character than if you started as such. If you don't find a strength setting item in your campaign, so be it, you'll just keep the higher dex and the generally favorable dex trade offs you made at first level.
Though you do definitely want the strength setting item if you can find it, regardless of whether you initially built for strength or dex. As a conquest paladin, you depend heavily on your save DCs, so you want to raise charisma before you raise weapon attack regardless, and if you find an item to replace your weapon attack stat before you spend any ASIs on raising it that's great and will let you spend later ASIs on more feats.
Other trade offs - as long as you're using dex you're stuck with finesse weapons. If your DM rolls treasure randomly then you're less likely to find a magic weapon that will suit you. It's not an overwhelming problem, but it can be an issue. As a halfling you'll also have lower base walking speed, which isn't great for a paladin who already lacks in mobility, but the ability to move through larger enemy spaces makes up for it and once you hit level 5 your mastif mount more than makes up for it.
I'd like to also add that I personally dislike being dependent on a specific item type, despite it's rarity. If I were to create a 1st level character with a low main attacking attribute and never raise it during leveling, I would be effectively putting pressure on my DM to "fix" my character by introducing that item at some point. I don't like doing that.
Nor do I like being on the receiving end of such behavior, when players all but demand that I put a certain item in the game because they constructed a whole build around the fact that I will give them what they want.
This attitude might work for AL or similar games where you get a table of what's available to you and you buy it like groceries but not everyone runs that kind of show.
It works better if you get to create a higher level character and get that kind of item as a starting equipment though I, as a DM, would also raise my eyebrow at attempt to create a Str-based character with Str 10 who luckily got that belt - it's not impossible to introduce in the backstory (effective even, if we assume that a weak person decided to become a champion once he found the magic belt - it's a classic superhero origin) but smells of powergaming anyway.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
You get a plus 1 for the meme alone. The rest of it was worthy as well.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
I've got a few of those memes, leftover from a conquest guide I was writing and never finished:
this next one I'm particularly proud of:
...
I made all the above. Here's one more I didn't make, but that was too good to pass up:
I mean, granted, it's not at all accurate. Edgelord anti-paladins have existed in the rules since second edition at least. I particularly liked 4e's take on the blackguard. But still, I like the spirit, and I'm a sucker for a good Rita meme.
Several things here first:
In order for a Dex Based Paladin to have close to the same AC as a STR based from level 2 onward, where most paladins can get Plate armor in modules. The Earliest that a Dex based Paladin could be 1 point behind a STR based Paladin is lvl 8. If this is a Duel wielding Paladin it is never gonna match a generic S&B Paladin in AC. This means a STR Paladin with plate at Lvl 2 can have a 20 AC buffed to 22 and only increases from there.
Second someone mentioned Defensive duelist. Anyone with a Finesse weapon and a Dex of 13 can take that. Yes I make several STR based Paladins around Defensive Duelist.
Third as I stated there are more items that increase STR and increase it beyond 20 more than any other stat. So please with Items like Belts of Hill, Storm, Fire, etc. Giant Strength, which increases your STR to 25 explain how a Dex Paladin can Compete in overall average damage against any STR Paladin with any of these belts.
All this being said with this built a lvl 20 Str based Paladin can have a Str 21+ Dex 14 Con 18 Int 8 Wis 12 Chr 18 with Resilient Con and Tough as feats. Giving you HP 244. Now going the general item list, which stats a lvl 20 player has 1 legndary, 2 very rare, and 3 rare, we can do several things to buff or boost AC or Damage to get a specific outcome so we wont factor in a weapon and assume its the legendary item. At this point based off items you can build a max AC if you would like or still high AC with higher damage. Mind you in character Creation the Str is 13 and can jump from 19 to 25 and an AC between 27 to 32 or possibly higher depending on what weapon you use. All this while have a Str the highest Dex can get or far higher. Which means you not only hit more consistently while dealing more damage.
This is what I mean when I said there is now single way any Dex Paladin can compete against a Str based Paladin. Mind you I never said that you couldn't play them. I said that they cant compete against. These are two different things. Mind you this just a very simple build that I threw together just for this. But did so to make a point. I am not saying you cant play them Im saying mechanically they are inferior and this is well know playing Paladins. Just like Duel Wielding as a Paladin is inferior to S&B and GWM
Dexadins are generally wearing medium armor. Starting heavy armor is AC16. Starting medium armor is AC13 +2 for dex, for AC15 total, one point behind heavy armor. Final heavy armor is AC18. Final medium armor is AC15 +2 2 for dex, for AC17 total, one point behind heavy armor.
So yeah, Dexadin is one point behind regular strength paladins in AC. In exchange, dexadins have better initiative and better reflex saves, which is a fair trade to me. If they want to stealth, they either need a higher dex for light armor (which they'll likely want anyway), or a feat for medium armor (which, along with a slightly higher dex, also makes up the AC difference with heavy armor), or need to accept a further -1 AC.
Regardless, a fair trade all around.
As for heavy armor characters qualifying for defensive duelist, maybe if you're a half elf. Most other races will have trouble hitting 13 dex after also maxing out their strength and charisma without cutting unacceptably into their constitution.
And when it comes to items that boost strength - those are, if anything, /better/ for dexadins. A dexadin can put on a belt of giant strength and use that high strength to poke extra hard with their rapier while still benefiting from their better initiative and reflex saves. They can even wear heavy armor if they want. If a strength paladin puts on a belt of giant strength, whatever character investment they put into strength is wasted.
He's basing his opinion 100% on increasing str past 20 via items /and/ the pure damage that comes from it. You'll never reach him with your common sense as to why dexterity is better for all reasons that are not pure damage. I hope he's never in a game with no magic items, because a dexadin can prop up his AC with a feat and match everything a stradin can get and be equal to a s/s stradin, and inferior in saves, ranged combat, initiative, skill checks, etc.
I don't think there's any point in mentioning that putting one of those belts he likes on a halfling with 8 dex is even better than putting it on a hill dwarf that already has 20 str because that rapier will work just the same.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Strength builds do have advantages. They multiclass easier - multiclassing a dexadin is hard to reasonably pull off in point buy for the same reason that defensive duelist his hard to take on a regular strength paladin. Heavy armor builds do have +1 AC over medium armor builds. And if you do care about dealing damage, dexadins don't have anything that compares to pole arm master or great weapon master.
But for a single classed, sword and board paladin? I'd almost be inclined to say dexadin is outright superior. Conquerors in particular do miss the high athletics for tripping, but they absolutely adore the boosted initiative. And yeah, the prevalence of strength-setting items is, if anything, a strong case *against* investing character build resources into the stat. A character with Strength 16 and dex 8 doesn't benefit from a pair of gauntlets of ogre strength nearly as much as a character with strength 8 and dex 16.
True enough. If I were playing a single-class, s/s ONLY paladin, I'd play dex. If I were playing 2h, I'd go str. Multi-class would depend, I'd consider a 13 str paladin for MC purposes, because I HATE dumping dex. It really depends on what I am trying to do.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Stereotypes... sterotypes.... allways stereotypes.
Why not slings with hand-made metal balls........ what kind of metal balls should be used ?? then I should tell about the spiked balls used in most of the chain clubs.
Tadaaaaaaaa !!! Is it a hack or is it a fake ??
My Ready-to-rock&roll chars:
Dertinus Tristany // Amilcar Barca // Vicenç Sacrarius // Oriol Deulofeu // Grovtuk
because you can't smite with a ranged weapon. You could go with a nice dagger though.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
The discussions about 2h are maybe a bit irrelevant seeing as we're talking halfling Bards here... Haven't seen a Halfy bard go str to swing that versatile Longsword around just yet :D.
it really is irrelevant. A halfling can't use heavy weapons, so they would be capped at a longsword if they wanted to go the two hand route. Rapier+dueling fighting style is better than 2 longsword used two handed, PLUS it gets a shield.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
The discussion about magic items is entirely important. There are more magic items that boost str than any other stat by a long shot almost to the point that playing in any faerun campaign, where these magic items are quite common, and putting ASI in str is idiotic. Guanlets of Ogre Strength is a common magic item and instantly boost str to 19. Belt of hill giant is a rare item. These two items in particular are not hard to come across or purchase as they are not out right as expensive other magic items. Off the top of my head there are 7 magical items that boost str to a set score and many others that provide bonuses to str. Including the Hammer of Thunderbolts that increase your Str by 4 when wielded to a max of 30.
Also playing off that an additional +1 to AC isn't that big of deal in a game where a +1 literally makes the difference between being hit and not a big deal. Hell you can literally make a Paladin where a tarrasque has to role a nat 20 to hit you if youre good at staking abilities and the like.
I will agree, that in a scenario where magic items don't exist in the game yes a dex based paladin is superior but not having magic items in a game is not a very common practice when playing on the whole. It may be the mainstream for certain groups but that's not the masses.
In my personal opinion im not all that concerned about intiative when playing a Paladin. Its not a prerogative and I've played plenty of Paladin with a -1 in dex. Built properly Paladins easily make a -1 saving throw a +4 or with correct magic items or feats if your that concerned about it much higher. Hell one of my character ideas for shits in giggles is a redemption paladin that every ASI goes into getting a resilient feat. Why because it be funny to have every save a +9 or higher, depending on your score.
In the end though everyone has different priorities on what they want to get out of a character in the game. That being said mechanically, when using point buy or standard array, no Dex Paladin is ever going to have as high of hit point, charisma, damage or AC as a str based Paladin with out suffering in one of those areas, and yes this is because of magic items but it is irrelevant that it is. They exist and as such they must be taking into account when talking about what is the most mechanically sound character if that's what you are aiming for. I've repeatedly stated however that if you want to play a character because of what ever reason play it. Don't let my opinion or anyone else's dissuade you from that choice if its what you want to play. I'm just stating what is best mechanically speaking.
And if anyone really wants to put it to the test we can put Paladin against Paladin and see whom comes out on top the majority of the time.
Think about those magic items again. Imagine a paladin picks up a pair of gauntlets of ogre power off the ground. Which paladin benefits from them more, the paladin who started the game with strength 16 and dex 8, or the paladin who started the game with strength 8 and dex 16? Remember that finesse weapons just give you the *option* to use dexterity in place of strength for melee attacks, they don't *require* you to do so.
If you pick up a belt of giant strength, then any asi's you spent on increasing your strength score are retroactively wasted, but so is any investment you put into strength during your initial character creation. Those items are flat out better for characters initially built as dexadins.
Don't get me wrong, +1 AC is great, it's a big deal. But a +2 to +4 bonus to both initiative and dexterity saves is absolutely a fair trade. Especially for a conquest paladin, as we are discussing in this thread, given their strong crowd control abilities. There is a huge difference between locking 2 to 3 enemies down with Fear and Conquering Presence before those enemies have acted vs. after.
In general, I agree that strength paladins are better. Heavy weapons are typically better for damage, and even if you're going sword and board, the multiclass options available to paladins, particularly hexblade and divine soul, are way too tempting to not even have the option of taking them later in your progression. But if you know going into the character that you're going to be a single classed sword & board paladin, something that is absolutely a viable build option for conquerors, then I do think high dex medium armor s the better call.
In no small part because you are likely to find a gauntlets of ogre power or belt of giant strength, in which event you can attune the item, don some plate, and smash things with your rapier while still enjoying the benefits of the higher initial dexterity investment to your saves and initiative
Could you please clarify what happens if I put those str items on my dex paladin who only starts with 8 str? thanks.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
If you put Str items on a dex based Paladin well congratulations you now have split more ASI into increasing Dex than just Con and Chr. Also now do you really have a dex based paladin anymore or are you gonna use Str as your primary attack and damage which makes it a Str based Paladin and not a dex based. At this point if this is what happens you just have a Str Based Paladin with high dex. Or if your stubborn enough to Use Dex still a Dex based paladin who's highest stat is barely used outside of athletics roles.
It's a dex paladin still. You're still getting the benefits of every ASI you placed into str. The str paladin loses all of this. So, your str based paladin...congratulations on being wasteful until you managed to get the items you want. I think you have things backwards. Str is what's used for athletics, not dex. And str is /not/ used for any other skill. Dex is used for many things: Init, stealth, ranged attacks, slight of hand, acrobatics and most importantly, dex saves which are quite common. Medium armor master brings your AC up to equal plate should you want to, and removes the armor penalty so you can be sneaky if you want to.
Frankly, I am not wasting my time with con. As far as ASI, adding str and adding dex are exactly equivalent. You can either raise or ignore for the same impact on your weapon using ability.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Anyway, back to the halfling conquest paladin, yeah. It's a little off type, a little unexpected, but that can make for a very memorable character. Mechanically it works just fine, whether as a single classed dexadin or as a multiclass build, though the latter does require you to take some hits to your other scores to make that 13 strength requirement.
Having a high dex does not make a Dex Paladin. Using Dex as your weapons attribute does. So again if you boost your str with an item and still use dex you're failing to use your stats to the best application. Further the second STR becomes your primary weapons stat you are no longer a dex based Paladin. Just a Str based Paladin with high dex.
Finally Con for Paladins is insanely important. It allows you to take more hits and maintain concentration.
Additional note. If you think you can still multiclass with an 8 str but have an item that changes your stat score your wrong.
There is a fundamental miscommunication then. When I say dexadin, I mean how you /build/ the character. Not what you're doing every individual round. Build your dex character, and if you're building a single classed sword and board paladin then you'll be just as good as a character built for strength. Rapier is just as good a starting weapon as longsword, You trade one point of AC for multiple points of initiative and reflex save which is a perfectly fair trade, if not outright in your favor. You lose the ability to multiclass or wield heavy weapons, but we're working from the assumption of single class sword and board, so you've already chosen not to do that.
IF you happen to find a strength-setting magic item, then absolutely, equip that and start using strength as your weapon attack. It'll spare you raising weapon attack with ASIs, you'll be able to put on heavy armor to buy back that 1 point of AC you lost, and you'll STILL have the better initiative and reflex saves, so you go from mostly better than a similarly built character that initially built for strength to outright and objectively better than a similar character built for strength. Again, where similar means sword & board plus no multiclassing. By Draigo's definition, you've transitioned from dex character to strength character by doing so, but that's not a problem, especially as you end up as an objectively better strength character than if you started as such. If you don't find a strength setting item in your campaign, so be it, you'll just keep the higher dex and the generally favorable dex trade offs you made at first level.
Though you do definitely want the strength setting item if you can find it, regardless of whether you initially built for strength or dex. As a conquest paladin, you depend heavily on your save DCs, so you want to raise charisma before you raise weapon attack regardless, and if you find an item to replace your weapon attack stat before you spend any ASIs on raising it that's great and will let you spend later ASIs on more feats.
Other trade offs - as long as you're using dex you're stuck with finesse weapons. If your DM rolls treasure randomly then you're less likely to find a magic weapon that will suit you. It's not an overwhelming problem, but it can be an issue. As a halfling you'll also have lower base walking speed, which isn't great for a paladin who already lacks in mobility, but the ability to move through larger enemy spaces makes up for it and once you hit level 5 your mastif mount more than makes up for it.
I'd like to also add that I personally dislike being dependent on a specific item type, despite it's rarity. If I were to create a 1st level character with a low main attacking attribute and never raise it during leveling, I would be effectively putting pressure on my DM to "fix" my character by introducing that item at some point. I don't like doing that.
Nor do I like being on the receiving end of such behavior, when players all but demand that I put a certain item in the game because they constructed a whole build around the fact that I will give them what they want.
This attitude might work for AL or similar games where you get a table of what's available to you and you buy it like groceries but not everyone runs that kind of show.
It works better if you get to create a higher level character and get that kind of item as a starting equipment though I, as a DM, would also raise my eyebrow at attempt to create a Str-based character with Str 10 who luckily got that belt - it's not impossible to introduce in the backstory (effective even, if we assume that a weak person decided to become a champion once he found the magic belt - it's a classic superhero origin) but smells of powergaming anyway.