I found this mentioned while surfing utube. It would allow you to cast smite (as it is not a spell nor does it require V, S, or M components). You could go Druid at first level (to get more a little more, but if you intend on your paladin being ranged you would want to go paladin first). Unless you roll really well you will have a weak paladin that should stay ranged as your physical traits will be replaced with the animal form you wild shape into. But you will probably have to choose dueling (as archery fighting style is not offered). At least you would be able to wear a wooden shield and non-metallic armor for AC improvements.The kalashtar from Ebberon give a +2 wis and +1 cha. Best I've found for a paladin/druid build. You could also choose a wood elf for mv 35', mask of the wild, and +2 dex vs +2 wis/+1 char, and darkvision. And the kalashtar has some interesting abilities also. And you could take one level of shadow sorcerer to gain eyes of the dark (dark vision).
The video recommended paladin 6 (oath of ancients) and druid 14. But I would recommend paladin 7 (oath of ancients) and druid 10 (as that is the level you get to wild shape into elemental form). The only two abilities the druid have that I would want is beast speech (able to cast spells in animal form) and unlimited wild shape change. Both of these are out of reach with 6 or 7 levels of paladin. This will leave 3 levels for another dip.
Of course, you will lose out on higher CR forms. At level 10 you will be able to wild shape into CR 3 animals. If you went 12-14 levels of druid, you could go up to CR 4 animals. Is the trade off worth it to you?
There are sort of three things to think about with this multiclassing combination for how you want to do it and why you are doing it the way you are.
1. You are just taking a few paladin levels to get divine smite and you can basically just stop at 2 levels and go straight moon druid from there. This works in that it gives you a stronger offensive option while wildshaped, in exchange for a few levels slower in regards to druid spellcasting scaling (they are pretty good) and are also getting slightly weaker wildshaping. This is a fine build honestly and basically works from low to high levels.
2. You go with 7 levels into oath of the ancients and mix that by just going straight druid after. This honestly doesn't sound that amazing to me just because you would have to not be doing much of any druiding until you hit level 8, but by then moon druid is pretty meh. It isn't a TERRIBLE idea mind, if someone has mounted combatant it helps patch up your shoddy health pool while wildshaped if they mount you, while you can give them some great bonuses while they ride you. You'd probably want to start as a druid here to get the basic moon druid wildshaping into a solid battle mount, then shift into being a paladin from there and focus on also doing healing, hitting level 9 is amazing and then after that you switch over to just maxing druid.
3. Realizing that there are a handful of other decent oaths like oath of redemption, and you use druid wildshaping or maybe spore druid as a way to just get more money that you can use to take damage for your other party members, this is a much more passive playstyle than the others but it would be one of the best ways to get even more health for this niche build.
I think I'm placing a higher value on the 3 auras than you are. And it's true, after 2-8 levels of druid, it becomes weaker than most other high level builds - but the wild shapes are still good for a soak or meat shield for the party.
I just like the druid/paladin for the RP and utility/flexibility. Also, I don't usually get the pleasure of making 15th level or above. The GM usually gets burned out. :-) I agree this is not optimized but it would be odd to see a paladin not wearing heavy metal armor and wild shaping - and smiting! lol
If you care about the aura then option 2 is what your looking at in this case. Maybe talk with the other players and see if someone is willing to be your rider and you can do an epic cavalry combo where you are buffing the heck out of them for riding you and they can help protect you with the mounted combatant feat's bonuses. Remember that this build is kinda MAD considering that you have both wisdom and charisma to worry about, as well as probably wanting dex and con for when you are out of wildshape. Also remember that your basic paladin aura is scaling off of charisma so getting that higher is more of a priority than wisdom if you want to go that route. Moon druid tends to tapper off at high tiers anyway just because your spellcasting tends to be more useful than wildshaping, so consider what spells you might cast before wildshaping as well.
Super late on this topic, but I stumbled across it and thought what the heck. My group had an expanded point-buy system for the current campaign (basically about 32 points instead of the normal 27) so I was able to make this build work without sacrificing too much. I went half-elf to more easily meet the requirements for druid and paladin at the outset. This build by the end will be 18 Moon Druid/ 2 Paladin, just enough into paladin to smite which is really what I was going for. Many of the Paladin spells with will be non-attack/DC spells like Bless and such, but the druid spells allow me tailor myself to my environment/circumstances.Guardian of Nature, Polymorph, Sunbeam/ Shapechange all the good stuff.
There are a few problems with the druid/paladin combo. The first is that the official ruling on divine smite is that it can only be applied to 'melee attacks with a weapon', which means you cannot use it with unarmed attacks nor can you use it with the natural attacks of a druid in wild shape. Now, your DM might house rule this. House rules allowing divine smite to work with unarmed attacks are common, and ime don't break anything, so maybe you could talk your DM into allowing it. If they don't allow it, however, then you're going to want to avoid the moon druid. Consider instead ravnica's spore druid, which is more weapon attack oriented. If that's not available, then maybe shepherd.
The next issue is stats. Paladin requires 13 strength and charisma to multiclass, druid requires 13 wisdom. Paladin spells and features scale with charisma. Druid spells and features scale with Wisdom. The rule against metal armor is likely to force you down to medium armor - which really needs at least 14 dexterity - if not light armor which needs even more. As a melee character who will probably have concentration spells going you also really don't want to dip below 14 constitution for HP & concentration saves. Your weapon attacks will scale with dexterity, or strength, or maybe wisdom with Shillelagh, but that's awkward and eats bonus actions. Or maybe charisma with a hexblade dip, but that's mixing yet a third class into an already awkward multiclass, and one that is a much worse thematic fit than druid/ancients. Druids can try to focus on spells that don't rely on saves to lessen wisdom reliance - healing, buffs, especially summons, again consider circle of the shepherd. Paladins aren't going to avoid charisma reliance - you can buff or smite with spell slots to not worry about save DCs, but one of the biggest reason to take paladin levels will always be aura of protection, and that's inescapably tied to your charisma score. fixing attack stats is a real problem, though. See if you can convince your DM to drop some gauntlets of ogre power, as that will help a lot. Also look at races with above usual stat modifiers. Half Elf is almost certainly the best call under standard rules. If your DM allows racial stat swapping from Tashas, then Mountain Dwarf is also worth considering.
Even with that, though, it's hard. Even with half elf, a spread of 13 14 14 8 13 16 isn't possible with point buy, and unless your DM is going to make non-metalic heavy armor available from very early in the campaign, allowing you to go s15 d8, I'm not really sure what you can do other than settle for a 14 starting charisma, which is workable but not ideal. Really what you want is to save this concept for a die rolled stats game where you just roll stupidly good stats all around.
Personally I'd focus on Shillelagh for melee attacks and ditch Strength entirely in favour of focusing on Wisdom and Charisma, with a 14 in Dexterity to maximise medium armour.
As a Paladin/Druid you have other tanking options besides high Constitution (Lay On Hands and Wildshape) so you should be able to get by with a 12 in Constitution, though if you can squeeze a 13 in there you can always tip it later (split an ability score improvement with another odd stats, or take the Resilient feat on Constitution). Meanwhile low Strength can be counteracted using Wild Shape when you need to climb, move a boulder or whatever.
Shillelagh on a one-handed quarterstaff plus shield will be just as good as a shield + warhammer build, and you probably want to go with the shield to keep your AC high without heavy armour anyway. You can go with the Duelling fighting style for +2 damage, or Defense for the +1 to AC.
I think it can definitely work, and should be fun to play, but you'll be building for variety rather than raw strength in any one area (especially Strength, if you go low on that).
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You /can't/ ditch strength entirely on this build due to paladin's multiclass stat requirements. Unless your DM removes those requirements altogether, 13 strength is a hard minimum, along with 13 wisdom and 13 charisma. And again, as a melee build you still very much want at least 14 dex for medium armor and 14 constitution for hit points and saves. The only stat you can dump outright is intelligence, and dumping just one stat isn't going to get you what you need and want everywhere else. I don't think the build can afford to put enough points into wisdom to make a shillelagh based offence viable without cutting into charisma so much that aura of protection, one of the key features you're multiclassing paladin for, starts to lose its luster.
You dont need to do melee attack with a weapon for Divine Smite, you need to do a melee weapon attack ( Starting at 2nd Level, when you hit a creature with a melee weapon Attack, ...) this is important cause every attack is either weapon or spell attack it doesnt matter if you actually uses a weapon to do it.Take animals attacks like Bite from a Wolf for example
Bite. Melee Weapon Attack: +4 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: (2d4 + 2) piercing damage. If the target is a creature, it must succeed on a DC 11 Strength saving throw or be knocked prone
You dont need to do melee attack with a weapon for Divine Smite, you need to do a melee weapon attack ( Starting at 2nd Level, when you hit a creature with a melee weapon Attack, ...) this is important cause every attack is either weapon or spell attack it doesnt matter if you actually uses a weapon to do it.Take animals attacks like Bite from a Wolf for example
Bite. Melee Weapon Attack: +4 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: (2d4 + 2) piercing damage. If the target is a creature, it must succeed on a DC 11 Strength saving throw or be knocked prone
I'm not sure this is correct; Divine Smite specifically mentions a weapon in its description:
Starting at 2nd level, when you hit a creature with a melee weapon attack, you can expend one spell slot to deal radiant damage to the target, in addition to the weapon’s damage.
If you're not using a weapon, then you have nothing to add the radiant damage on top of; the only exceptions are things specifically described as natural weapons, such as a Minotaur's horns in Guildmaster's Guide to Ravnica, which is more than just a little bit hilarious.
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The recent errata & faq make clear that, by the rules as written, divine smite only works with weapons specifically - not just anything classified as a 'weapon attack'. So bites and claws and unarmed strikes don't work. However, the same ruling explicitly states that this is purely a thematic thing, and if a DM allows divine smite with non-weapon-based 'melee weapon attacks' that's completely fine and won't break anything balance-wise. At which point many DMs will be willing to let it work as a house rule. And if they don't, there's always monk weapons.
can you link to that errata? I found a few tweets that say it is different: I read that you'll need a weapon for smites, so unarmed strikes don't work. But claws, horns etc. are natural weapons which count as attacking with a wepon and are therefor able to use smite. ( see this tweet from Jeremy Crawford for natural weapons are not unarmed attacks) There is also an example given that the minotaur could smite with their horns in another tweet. (see this tweet)
edit: I also found this older sage advice from Mike Mearls(I know it isn't J.C.)
[NEW] Can a paladin use Divine Smite when they hit using an unarmed strike?
No. Divine Smite isn’t intended to work with unarmed strikes. Divine Smite does work with a melee weapon attack, and an unarmed strike can be used to make such an attack. But the text of Divine Smite also refers to the “weapon’s damage,” and an unarmed strike isn’t a weapon. If a DM decides to override this rule, no imbalance is created. Tying Divine Smite to weapons was a thematic choice on our part—paladins being traditionally associated with weapons. It was not a game balance choice
can you link to that errata? I found a few tweets that say it is different: I read that you'll need a weapon for smites, so unarmed strikes don't work. But claws, horns etc. are natural weapons which count as attacking with a wepon and are therefor able to use smite. ( see this tweet from Jeremy Crawford for natural weapons are not unarmed attacks) There is also an example given that the minotaur could smite with their horns in another tweet. (see this tweet)
edit: I also found this older sage advice from Mike Mearls(I know it isn't J.C.)
You don't need an errata, the feature itself says it:
Starting at 2nd level, when you hit a creature with a melee weapon attack, you can expend one spell slot to deal radiant damage to the target, in addition to the weapon’s damage.
While a weapon attack triggers the feature, the effect is to add damage to "the weapon", which an unarmed strike does not have. You can't do damage in addition to something that doesn't exist. You could try to argue that an unarmed strike, since it's a melee weapon attack, could trigger divine smite, but it would then proceed to do nothing.
Not that there'd be anything broken with a DM allowing it anyway, it just doesn't seem to be the way that paladins are intended to play.
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I think the tweets I linked covered what you both are saying: No Divine Smite doesn't work with unarmed strikes. That much is clear, I'm not disputing that. RAW you can't punch someone with divine power.
The first Tweet I linked made clear, that we're not talking about unarmed strikes here. We're talking about natural weapons. "Natural weapons don't count as unarmed strikes." - so unless you're punching or kicking as a bear instead of using your claw attack you CAN use (It's a weapon attack) Smite and add smite damage to the (natural) weapons damage.
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I found this mentioned while surfing utube. It would allow you to cast smite (as it is not a spell nor does it require V, S, or M components). You could go Druid at first level (to get more a little more, but if you intend on your paladin being ranged you would want to go paladin first). Unless you roll really well you will have a weak paladin that should stay ranged as your physical traits will be replaced with the animal form you wild shape into. But you will probably have to choose dueling (as archery fighting style is not offered). At least you would be able to wear a wooden shield and non-metallic armor for AC improvements.The kalashtar from Ebberon give a +2 wis and +1 cha. Best I've found for a paladin/druid build. You could also choose a wood elf for mv 35', mask of the wild, and +2 dex vs +2 wis/+1 char, and darkvision. And the kalashtar has some interesting abilities also. And you could take one level of shadow sorcerer to gain eyes of the dark (dark vision).
The video recommended paladin 6 (oath of ancients) and druid 14. But I would recommend paladin 7 (oath of ancients) and druid 10 (as that is the level you get to wild shape into elemental form). The only two abilities the druid have that I would want is beast speech (able to cast spells in animal form) and unlimited wild shape change. Both of these are out of reach with 6 or 7 levels of paladin. This will leave 3 levels for another dip.
Of course, you will lose out on higher CR forms. At level 10 you will be able to wild shape into CR 3 animals. If you went 12-14 levels of druid, you could go up to CR 4 animals. Is the trade off worth it to you?
There are sort of three things to think about with this multiclassing combination for how you want to do it and why you are doing it the way you are.
1. You are just taking a few paladin levels to get divine smite and you can basically just stop at 2 levels and go straight moon druid from there. This works in that it gives you a stronger offensive option while wildshaped, in exchange for a few levels slower in regards to druid spellcasting scaling (they are pretty good) and are also getting slightly weaker wildshaping. This is a fine build honestly and basically works from low to high levels.
2. You go with 7 levels into oath of the ancients and mix that by just going straight druid after. This honestly doesn't sound that amazing to me just because you would have to not be doing much of any druiding until you hit level 8, but by then moon druid is pretty meh. It isn't a TERRIBLE idea mind, if someone has mounted combatant it helps patch up your shoddy health pool while wildshaped if they mount you, while you can give them some great bonuses while they ride you. You'd probably want to start as a druid here to get the basic moon druid wildshaping into a solid battle mount, then shift into being a paladin from there and focus on also doing healing, hitting level 9 is amazing and then after that you switch over to just maxing druid.
3. Realizing that there are a handful of other decent oaths like oath of redemption, and you use druid wildshaping or maybe spore druid as a way to just get more money that you can use to take damage for your other party members, this is a much more passive playstyle than the others but it would be one of the best ways to get even more health for this niche build.
Hi,
I think I'm placing a higher value on the 3 auras than you are. And it's true, after 2-8 levels of druid, it becomes weaker than most other high level builds - but the wild shapes are still good for a soak or meat shield for the party.
I just like the druid/paladin for the RP and utility/flexibility. Also, I don't usually get the pleasure of making 15th level or above. The GM usually gets burned out. :-) I agree this is not optimized but it would be odd to see a paladin not wearing heavy metal armor and wild shaping - and smiting! lol
If you care about the aura then option 2 is what your looking at in this case. Maybe talk with the other players and see if someone is willing to be your rider and you can do an epic cavalry combo where you are buffing the heck out of them for riding you and they can help protect you with the mounted combatant feat's bonuses. Remember that this build is kinda MAD considering that you have both wisdom and charisma to worry about, as well as probably wanting dex and con for when you are out of wildshape. Also remember that your basic paladin aura is scaling off of charisma so getting that higher is more of a priority than wisdom if you want to go that route. Moon druid tends to tapper off at high tiers anyway just because your spellcasting tends to be more useful than wildshaping, so consider what spells you might cast before wildshaping as well.
Super late on this topic, but I stumbled across it and thought what the heck. My group had an expanded point-buy system for the current campaign (basically about 32 points instead of the normal 27) so I was able to make this build work without sacrificing too much. I went half-elf to more easily meet the requirements for druid and paladin at the outset. This build by the end will be 18 Moon Druid/ 2 Paladin, just enough into paladin to smite which is really what I was going for. Many of the Paladin spells with will be non-attack/DC spells like Bless and such, but the druid spells allow me tailor myself to my environment/circumstances.Guardian of Nature, Polymorph, Sunbeam/ Shapechange all the good stuff.
There are a few problems with the druid/paladin combo. The first is that the official ruling on divine smite is that it can only be applied to 'melee attacks with a weapon', which means you cannot use it with unarmed attacks nor can you use it with the natural attacks of a druid in wild shape. Now, your DM might house rule this. House rules allowing divine smite to work with unarmed attacks are common, and ime don't break anything, so maybe you could talk your DM into allowing it. If they don't allow it, however, then you're going to want to avoid the moon druid. Consider instead ravnica's spore druid, which is more weapon attack oriented. If that's not available, then maybe shepherd.
The next issue is stats. Paladin requires 13 strength and charisma to multiclass, druid requires 13 wisdom. Paladin spells and features scale with charisma. Druid spells and features scale with Wisdom. The rule against metal armor is likely to force you down to medium armor - which really needs at least 14 dexterity - if not light armor which needs even more. As a melee character who will probably have concentration spells going you also really don't want to dip below 14 constitution for HP & concentration saves. Your weapon attacks will scale with dexterity, or strength, or maybe wisdom with Shillelagh, but that's awkward and eats bonus actions. Or maybe charisma with a hexblade dip, but that's mixing yet a third class into an already awkward multiclass, and one that is a much worse thematic fit than druid/ancients. Druids can try to focus on spells that don't rely on saves to lessen wisdom reliance - healing, buffs, especially summons, again consider circle of the shepherd. Paladins aren't going to avoid charisma reliance - you can buff or smite with spell slots to not worry about save DCs, but one of the biggest reason to take paladin levels will always be aura of protection, and that's inescapably tied to your charisma score. fixing attack stats is a real problem, though. See if you can convince your DM to drop some gauntlets of ogre power, as that will help a lot. Also look at races with above usual stat modifiers. Half Elf is almost certainly the best call under standard rules. If your DM allows racial stat swapping from Tashas, then Mountain Dwarf is also worth considering.
Even with that, though, it's hard. Even with half elf, a spread of 13 14 14 8 13 16 isn't possible with point buy, and unless your DM is going to make non-metalic heavy armor available from very early in the campaign, allowing you to go s15 d8, I'm not really sure what you can do other than settle for a 14 starting charisma, which is workable but not ideal. Really what you want is to save this concept for a die rolled stats game where you just roll stupidly good stats all around.
Personally I'd focus on Shillelagh for melee attacks and ditch Strength entirely in favour of focusing on Wisdom and Charisma, with a 14 in Dexterity to maximise medium armour.
As a Paladin/Druid you have other tanking options besides high Constitution (Lay On Hands and Wildshape) so you should be able to get by with a 12 in Constitution, though if you can squeeze a 13 in there you can always tip it later (split an ability score improvement with another odd stats, or take the Resilient feat on Constitution). Meanwhile low Strength can be counteracted using Wild Shape when you need to climb, move a boulder or whatever.
Shillelagh on a one-handed quarterstaff plus shield will be just as good as a shield + warhammer build, and you probably want to go with the shield to keep your AC high without heavy armour anyway. You can go with the Duelling fighting style for +2 damage, or Defense for the +1 to AC.
I think it can definitely work, and should be fun to play, but you'll be building for variety rather than raw strength in any one area (especially Strength, if you go low on that).
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
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You /can't/ ditch strength entirely on this build due to paladin's multiclass stat requirements. Unless your DM removes those requirements altogether, 13 strength is a hard minimum, along with 13 wisdom and 13 charisma. And again, as a melee build you still very much want at least 14 dex for medium armor and 14 constitution for hit points and saves. The only stat you can dump outright is intelligence, and dumping just one stat isn't going to get you what you need and want everywhere else. I don't think the build can afford to put enough points into wisdom to make a shillelagh based offence viable without cutting into charisma so much that aura of protection, one of the key features you're multiclassing paladin for, starts to lose its luster.
You dont need to do melee attack with a weapon for Divine Smite, you need to do a melee weapon attack ( Starting at 2nd Level, when you hit a creature with a melee weapon Attack, ...) this is important cause every attack is either weapon or spell attack it doesnt matter if you actually uses a weapon to do it.Take animals attacks like Bite from a Wolf for example
I'm not sure this is correct; Divine Smite specifically mentions a weapon in its description:
If you're not using a weapon, then you have nothing to add the radiant damage on top of; the only exceptions are things specifically described as natural weapons, such as a Minotaur's horns in Guildmaster's Guide to Ravnica, which is more than just a little bit hilarious.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
The recent errata & faq make clear that, by the rules as written, divine smite only works with weapons specifically - not just anything classified as a 'weapon attack'. So bites and claws and unarmed strikes don't work. However, the same ruling explicitly states that this is purely a thematic thing, and if a DM allows divine smite with non-weapon-based 'melee weapon attacks' that's completely fine and won't break anything balance-wise. At which point many DMs will be willing to let it work as a house rule. And if they don't, there's always monk weapons.
can you link to that errata? I found a few tweets that say it is different: I read that you'll need a weapon for smites, so unarmed strikes don't work. But claws, horns etc. are natural weapons which count as attacking with a wepon and are therefor able to use smite. ( see this tweet from Jeremy Crawford for natural weapons are not unarmed attacks) There is also an example given that the minotaur could smite with their horns in another tweet. (see this tweet)
edit: I also found this older sage advice from Mike Mearls(I know it isn't J.C.)
faq rather than errata, but still officially sourced: https://media.wizards.com/2020/dnd/downloads/SA-Compendium.pdf
You don't need an errata, the feature itself says it:
While a weapon attack triggers the feature, the effect is to add damage to "the weapon", which an unarmed strike does not have. You can't do damage in addition to something that doesn't exist. You could try to argue that an unarmed strike, since it's a melee weapon attack, could trigger divine smite, but it would then proceed to do nothing.
Not that there'd be anything broken with a DM allowing it anyway, it just doesn't seem to be the way that paladins are intended to play.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
I think the tweets I linked covered what you both are saying: No Divine Smite doesn't work with unarmed strikes. That much is clear, I'm not disputing that. RAW you can't punch someone with divine power.
The first Tweet I linked made clear, that we're not talking about unarmed strikes here. We're talking about natural weapons. "Natural weapons don't count as unarmed strikes." - so unless you're punching or kicking as a bear instead of using your claw attack you CAN use (It's a weapon attack) Smite and add smite damage to the (natural) weapons damage.