Gloomstalker is the shadow assassin, the spy (you get Disguise Self spell), the infiltrator, the Underdark hunter, the sneaky Ranger. It is flavorful as much as the other with really well designed mechanics. Dread Ambusher is loosely comparable to Action Surge, but available at every encounter. Being invisible in the dark is incredible. Greater Invisibility is one of the best high level spells.
Here's my ranking, which doesn't really use any one metric. I suppose it's all just what I like or dislike:
7. Monster Slayer: I absolutely love the monster hunter character concept, but the mechanics on this one just don't do it for me at all. Level 11 is really strong and unique for a ranger, but too limited in use and hits a terrible save, since the mages you're fighting with it should be rocking crazy wisdom saves. I can play like van helsing with any ranger and don't feel the need to mess around with these subpar abilities.
6. Hunter: Eh, not much to say here. A fine subclass, with fine abilities. Another one where I feel like I can play any ranger as the "hunter" and end up liking other subclasses with abilities that excite me more for the job.
5. Horizon Walker: I suppose the Horizon Walker is a victim of nostalgia for me. I absolutely loved the Horizon Walker prestige classes in 3.5 and Pathfinder 1E and this iteration doesn't hit the same chord with me despite being enamored with the walker of planes throughout the history of the game. I don't like that their bonus action is tied to bad damage and while level 11 is crazy stylish, having to target 3 different enemies to use it is less than ideal. Level 7 etherealness is my favorite of the lot, but being limited to a single round per SR is super harsh. The spell list is great, but it doesn't do enough to save the subclass in my eyes. I think the Hunter is stronger mechanically, and I suppose I'm only putting Horizon Walker higher because I really want to like it as much as I did its predecessors.
4. Beastmaster: PHB Beastmaster never did it for me, but I like what Tasha's has done for this subclass. I enjoy pet classes, but they aren't my favorite type of character either. I generally like not having to deal with multiple bodies, but I like how tasha's beastmaster does it. I enjoy that this subclass promotes a wisdom based approach quite a bit as well.
3. Fey Wanderer: I think Tasha's was an absolute homerun for the ranger and Fey Wanderer continues that trend with excellent abilities across the board. It's great that this sub opens up a clear path to a social role for the ranger. Ties to the feywild draw me to a very different place than what I typically think of for rangers and I love that.
2. Gloomstalker: I think this subclass is sexy. The assassin from the shadows done in a way that I enjoy mechanically. I've never been a fan of the assassin rogue, and find gloomstalker to be the most satisfying route to such a character. It gets amazing abilities piled on at 3rd level, but I also think it has some of the best scaling out of the ranger subs. Iron Mind is an amazing defensive buff, the spell list is incredible and Stalker's Flurry is functionally nearly identical to the fighter's second extra attack with sharpshooter in the mix. I absolutely love the characters that stalk the night, so this mechanical powerhouse is a big win in my book.
1. Swarmkeeper: Man I can't get enough of this subclass. Tasha's was like christmas day. I love messing around with swarm ideas, and find how it was executed mechanically to be very satisfying as it leaves it quite open ended despite being such a driving characteristic. Modal abilities are awesome, forced movement is awesome, disengaging is awesome, free flight is awesome. Awesome awesome awesome. Even the spell list is an all star. I appreciate having a pet-like class without a pet too. Yeah this one takes the cake for me hands down. Wonderfully designed in my book.
I really dislike the gloomstalker. One thing I look for in subclasses is what sort of ideas they enable and in that respect the gloomstalker is incredibly vanilla. You don't really build a concept around better saves and... more damage in round 1 is nice but again that's just something you'd want to do anyways. The spell list doesn't interest me much either. Flurry and Dodge are a little bit cooler, but they're late enough it hardly matters... Melee gloomstalkers basically don't have a subclass anymore if they start 45 feet away from someone, that's neat too.
You mean except for classical concept such as snipers, relentless avengers, assassins, bounty hunters or The Phantom? Yeah, no. There's nothing you can do with the Gloom Stalker. [/s]
That said, if all you look at are those particular things then I can agree that the GS might not be your cup of tea.
Here's my ranking, which doesn't really use any one metric. I suppose it's all just what I like or dislike:
7. Monster Slayer: I absolutely love the monster hunter character concept, but the mechanics on this one just don't do it for me at all. Level 11 is really strong and unique for a ranger, but too limited in use and hits a terrible save, since the mages you're fighting with it should be rocking crazy wisdom saves. I can play like van helsing with any ranger and don't feel the need to mess around with these subpar abilities.
6. Hunter: Eh, not much to say here. A fine subclass, with fine abilities. Another one where I feel like I can play any ranger as the "hunter" and end up liking other subclasses with abilities that excite me more for the job.
5. Horizon Walker: I suppose the Horizon Walker is a victim of nostalgia for me. I absolutely loved the Horizon Walker prestige classes in 3.5 and Pathfinder 1E and this iteration doesn't hit the same chord with me despite being enamored with the walker of planes throughout the history of the game. I don't like that their bonus action is tied to bad damage and while level 11 is crazy stylish, having to target 3 different enemies to use it is less than ideal. Level 7 etherealness is my favorite of the lot, but being limited to a single round per SR is super harsh. The spell list is great, but it doesn't do enough to save the subclass in my eyes. I think the Hunter is stronger mechanically, and I suppose I'm only putting Horizon Walker higher because I really want to like it as much as I did its predecessors.
4. Beastmaster: PHB Beastmaster never did it for me, but I like what Tasha's has done for this subclass. I enjoy pet classes, but they aren't my favorite type of character either. I generally like not having to deal with multiple bodies, but I like how tasha's beastmaster does it. I enjoy that this subclass promotes a wisdom based approach quite a bit as well.
3. Fey Wanderer: I think Tasha's was an absolute homerun for the ranger and Fey Wanderer continues that trend with excellent abilities across the board. It's great that this sub opens up a clear path to a social role for the ranger. Ties to the feywild draw me to a very different place than what I typically think of for rangers and I love that.
2. Gloomstalker: I think this subclass is sexy. The assassin from the shadows done in a way that I enjoy mechanically. I've never been a fan of the assassin rogue, and find gloomstalker to be the most satisfying route to such a character. It gets amazing abilities piled on at 3rd level, but I also think it has some of the best scaling out of the ranger subs. Iron Mind is an amazing defensive buff, the spell list is incredible and Stalker's Flurry is functionally nearly identical to the fighter's second extra attack with sharpshooter in the mix. I absolutely love the characters that stalk the night, so this mechanical powerhouse is a big win in my book.
1. Swarmkeeper: Man I can't get enough of this subclass. Tasha's was like christmas day. I love messing around with swarm ideas, and find how it was executed mechanically to be very satisfying as it leaves it quite open ended despite being such a driving characteristic. Modal abilities are awesome, forced movement is awesome, disengaging is awesome, free flight is awesome. Awesome awesome awesome. Even the spell list is an all star. I appreciate having a pet-like class without a pet too. Yeah this one takes the cake for me hands down. Wonderfully designed in my book.
I would swap 1 and 2 but overall pretty much my thoughts as well.
Rope Trick is one of those spells you do not think about a lot until its just given to you and I have seen so many ingenious uses of it that I have added it as a big plus to my overall ranking.
Gloomyboy was my number 1 until swarmkeeper was released, easy. Absolutely love the them. Rope Trick is such a fantastic spell and a really fun option to give to a Ranger specifically. Frankly, the entire Gloomstalker bonus list is fire. Considering how poor bonus spell lists can be, when your least exciting option is Disguise Self you're in a really good spot. Excellent bonus spell lists are a common theme among my top 3.
Gloomyboy was my number 1 until swarmkeeper was released, easy. Absolutely love the them. Rope Trick is such a fantastic spell and a really fun option to give to a Ranger specifically. Frankly, the entire Gloomstalker bonus list is fire. Considering how poor bonus spell lists can be, when your least exciting option is Disguise Self you're in a really good spot. Excellent bonus spell lists are a common theme among my top 3.
Fair enough!
Swarm is really good...that hover speed is my favorite for some reason.
For me at least Swarm, Gloom, and Fey are my favorite. I think Horizon and Monster Hunter read better than they function, but they read really cool. Beastmaster is much improved in Tasha's, but really isn't my preferred playstyle. Hunter is just a boring read compared to the others, but highly effective.
1. Fey 2. Gloom 3. Swarm 4. Hunter 5. Horizon 6. Monster Hunter 7. Beastmaster (because its not my preferred playstyle)
Based on my playing styles/likes/ history not power.
1) horizon walker - most of my rangers end up here because I have tended to move ALOT ( see sig) so it fits their backgrounds and is fun to play. 2) Fey wanderer - for much the same reason but it’s character fantasy is more limited. 3) hunter - mechanically sound, yes it’s bland but that means I can twist it how I need/want. 4) drake warden - I m not really a beauty ranger but I love dragons 5/6) beast master/ swarm keeper - just not my style if you like them that’s fine.
9) gloomstalker - I don’t really care how powerful it is it should be rogue, just like the scout rogue should be a ranger - better yet just do away with them both please.
Gloomyboy was my number 1 until swarmkeeper was released, easy. Absolutely love the them. Rope Trick is such a fantastic spell and a really fun option to give to a Ranger specifically. Frankly, the entire Gloomstalker bonus list is fire. Considering how poor bonus spell lists can be, when your least exciting option is Disguise Self you're in a really good spot. Excellent bonus spell lists are a common theme among my top 3.
Fair enough!
Swarm is really good...that hover speed is my favorite for some reason.
I absolutely love the fly speed and I like it even more because of the slowness of it. That 10 foot hover is just so perfectly evocative for the subclass.
Gloomyboy was my number 1 until swarmkeeper was released, easy. Absolutely love the them. Rope Trick is such a fantastic spell and a really fun option to give to a Ranger specifically. Frankly, the entire Gloomstalker bonus list is fire. Considering how poor bonus spell lists can be, when your least exciting option is Disguise Self you're in a really good spot. Excellent bonus spell lists are a common theme among my top 3.
Fair enough!
Swarm is really good...that hover speed is my favorite for some reason.
I absolutely love the fly speed and I like it even more because of the slowness of it. That 10 foot hover is just so perfectly evocative for the subclass.
For me interesting play is not the same as power level. I will do an opinion combat+utility rank next to each. S-E scale
my next to play list is:
1. Swarmkeeper. [A+] just so many fun options and character ideas. Least situational of all the abilities. Slime ranger ; kenku with raven flock, yuanti snake swarm, Living warforge hive. and alot more.
2. horizon walker. [A-] If i was playing a campaign where the dm said there would be planar travel this is what I want to play.
3. more PHB beast master[ S-E depending on dm]. still solid flavor lots to do and character growth and changes as the campain moves along.
4. 50/50 Gloom stalker[A] or drake warden(pending changes). wouldn't mind trying it but I would want it under specific campaign settings or known party needs/roles.
5. Hunter ranger. [B] none of mechanics inspire role play potential in me. probably would play one for a AOE heavy game.
6. fey wanderer. [B]More situational than #4. I like the idea of a face ranger but I would rather watch one played than play one.
7. Monster hunter.[C+] Just ok in my mind. maybe if I knew the BBGE at the end of the campaign. not as fun of a design as others.
8. Tasha's beasts. [B] The epitome of wizards turning rpg mechanics into videogame/boardgamey style mechanics. no thanks.
9) gloomstalker - I don’t really care how powerful it is it should be rogue, just like the scout rogue should be a ranger - better yet just do away with them both please.
Treantmonk is going through a series of ranking every sublcass. when he gets to rouge and ranger it will be super interesting. I wonder if he will S rank scout rogue which he basically means its too powerful and steps on other classes toes (I think he actually uses the phase "invalidates parts of play").
9) gloomstalker - I don’t really care how powerful it is it should be rogue, just like the scout rogue should be a ranger - better yet just do away with them both please.
Treantmonk is going through a series of ranking every sublcass. when he gets to rouge and ranger it will be super interesting. I wonder if he will S rank scout rogue which he basically means its too powerful and steps on other classes toes (I think he actually uses the phase "invalidates parts of play").
Did he just give monk as a whole an "F"? I know he has not been the class's biggest fan.
It would be interesting his thoughts on rangers though as he tends to play towards the "optimal = better" angle more often than not.
Did he just give monk as a whole an "F"? I know he has not been the class's biggest fan.
It would be interesting his thoughts on rangers though as he tends to play towards the "optimal = better" angle more often than not.
I don't know how much stock I'd put in treanmonk's reviews as I don't think he's very objective or balanced about it at all; he seems to review everything from the most whiteroom of "damage is the only thing that ever matters" of perspectives.
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Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
Did he just give monk as a whole an "F"? I know he has not been the class's biggest fan.
It would be interesting his thoughts on rangers though as he tends to play towards the "optimal = better" angle more often than not.
I don't know how much stock I'd put in treanmonk's reviews as I don't think he's very objective or balanced about it at all; he seems to review everything from the most whiteroom of "damage is the only thing that ever matters" of perspectives.
Yeah thats what I was thinking as well....I find certain subclasses just fascinating (Mastermind Rogue) even though they are on the lower end damage wise.
He's actually one of the few people that thought Ranger was fine(-ish) before Tasha's and he's supposedly taking Tasha's changes into consideration for his subclass rankings.
He also put out a video explaining why white room damage calculations are next to useless as a metric for power...now we just need to see if he follows his own advice (he won't.)
His rankings are OK but heavily biased. I heavily disagreed with cleric rankings which were generally C tier, when clerics hold some of the key spells in the game and with spells prepared have one of the broadest options for spells of any caster. His views within each group are interesting though. He is inconsistent in his rubric at times.
He's actually one of the few people that thought Ranger was fine(-ish) before Tasha's and he's supposedly taking Tasha's changes into consideration for his subclass rankings.
He also put out a video explaining why white room damage calculations are next to useless as a metric for power...now we just need to see if he follows his own advice (he won't.)
That basically did what a lot of people suggested you be able to do: Swap your Favored Enemy and Natural Explorer terrain. Plus the feature he uses gives you more advantages over your FE than the original did.
Did he just give monk as a whole an "F"? I know he has not been the class's biggest fan.
It would be interesting his thoughts on rangers though as he tends to play towards the "optimal = better" angle more often than not.
I don't know how much stock I'd put in treanmonk's reviews as I don't think he's very objective or balanced about it at all; he seems to review everything from the most whiteroom of "damage is the only thing that ever matters" of perspectives.
He specifically is clear about how and why he distills things out creating a perspective. By giving the explanation It helps players make better informed choices. Yes he has a focus on optimization but he actively states where its bad and too much. He is willing to correct his opinion/flaws (at least in the comments). and along the way you learn good principles to create good rankings rather than it feels good or bad.
Some times he adds a tone that makes things sound worse than they are. In his system a C is still a good class you just need to put work/planing into it.
Being able to quantify the standards is half the battle. Too many famous youtubers can't even do that right.
Gloomstalker is the shadow assassin, the spy (you get Disguise Self spell), the infiltrator, the Underdark hunter, the sneaky Ranger. It is flavorful as much as the other with really well designed mechanics. Dread Ambusher is loosely comparable to Action Surge, but available at every encounter. Being invisible in the dark is incredible. Greater Invisibility is one of the best high level spells.
Here's my ranking, which doesn't really use any one metric. I suppose it's all just what I like or dislike:
7. Monster Slayer: I absolutely love the monster hunter character concept, but the mechanics on this one just don't do it for me at all. Level 11 is really strong and unique for a ranger, but too limited in use and hits a terrible save, since the mages you're fighting with it should be rocking crazy wisdom saves. I can play like van helsing with any ranger and don't feel the need to mess around with these subpar abilities.
6. Hunter: Eh, not much to say here. A fine subclass, with fine abilities. Another one where I feel like I can play any ranger as the "hunter" and end up liking other subclasses with abilities that excite me more for the job.
5. Horizon Walker: I suppose the Horizon Walker is a victim of nostalgia for me. I absolutely loved the Horizon Walker prestige classes in 3.5 and Pathfinder 1E and this iteration doesn't hit the same chord with me despite being enamored with the walker of planes throughout the history of the game. I don't like that their bonus action is tied to bad damage and while level 11 is crazy stylish, having to target 3 different enemies to use it is less than ideal. Level 7 etherealness is my favorite of the lot, but being limited to a single round per SR is super harsh. The spell list is great, but it doesn't do enough to save the subclass in my eyes. I think the Hunter is stronger mechanically, and I suppose I'm only putting Horizon Walker higher because I really want to like it as much as I did its predecessors.
4. Beastmaster: PHB Beastmaster never did it for me, but I like what Tasha's has done for this subclass. I enjoy pet classes, but they aren't my favorite type of character either. I generally like not having to deal with multiple bodies, but I like how tasha's beastmaster does it. I enjoy that this subclass promotes a wisdom based approach quite a bit as well.
3. Fey Wanderer: I think Tasha's was an absolute homerun for the ranger and Fey Wanderer continues that trend with excellent abilities across the board. It's great that this sub opens up a clear path to a social role for the ranger. Ties to the feywild draw me to a very different place than what I typically think of for rangers and I love that.
2. Gloomstalker: I think this subclass is sexy. The assassin from the shadows done in a way that I enjoy mechanically. I've never been a fan of the assassin rogue, and find gloomstalker to be the most satisfying route to such a character. It gets amazing abilities piled on at 3rd level, but I also think it has some of the best scaling out of the ranger subs. Iron Mind is an amazing defensive buff, the spell list is incredible and Stalker's Flurry is functionally nearly identical to the fighter's second extra attack with sharpshooter in the mix. I absolutely love the characters that stalk the night, so this mechanical powerhouse is a big win in my book.
1. Swarmkeeper: Man I can't get enough of this subclass. Tasha's was like christmas day. I love messing around with swarm ideas, and find how it was executed mechanically to be very satisfying as it leaves it quite open ended despite being such a driving characteristic. Modal abilities are awesome, forced movement is awesome, disengaging is awesome, free flight is awesome. Awesome awesome awesome. Even the spell list is an all star. I appreciate having a pet-like class without a pet too. Yeah this one takes the cake for me hands down. Wonderfully designed in my book.
You mean except for classical concept such as snipers, relentless avengers, assassins, bounty hunters or The Phantom? Yeah, no. There's nothing you can do with the Gloom Stalker. [/s]
That said, if all you look at are those particular things then I can agree that the GS might not be your cup of tea.
I would swap 1 and 2 but overall pretty much my thoughts as well.
Rope Trick is one of those spells you do not think about a lot until its just given to you and I have seen so many ingenious uses of it that I have added it as a big plus to my overall ranking.
Gloomyboy was my number 1 until swarmkeeper was released, easy. Absolutely love the them. Rope Trick is such a fantastic spell and a really fun option to give to a Ranger specifically. Frankly, the entire Gloomstalker bonus list is fire. Considering how poor bonus spell lists can be, when your least exciting option is Disguise Self you're in a really good spot. Excellent bonus spell lists are a common theme among my top 3.
Fair enough!
Swarm is really good...that hover speed is my favorite for some reason.
For me at least Swarm, Gloom, and Fey are my favorite. I think Horizon and Monster Hunter read better than they function, but they read really cool. Beastmaster is much improved in Tasha's, but really isn't my preferred playstyle. Hunter is just a boring read compared to the others, but highly effective.
1. Fey
2. Gloom
3. Swarm
4. Hunter
5. Horizon
6. Monster Hunter
7. Beastmaster (because its not my preferred playstyle)
Based on my playing styles/likes/ history not power.
1) horizon walker - most of my rangers end up here because I have tended to move ALOT ( see sig) so it fits their backgrounds and is fun to play.
2) Fey wanderer - for much the same reason but it’s character fantasy is more limited.
3) hunter - mechanically sound, yes it’s bland but that means I can twist it how I need/want.
4) drake warden - I m not really a beauty ranger but I love dragons
5/6) beast master/ swarm keeper - just not my style if you like them that’s fine.
9) gloomstalker - I don’t really care how powerful it is it should be rogue, just like the scout rogue should be a ranger - better yet just do away with them both please.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
I absolutely love the fly speed and I like it even more because of the slowness of it. That 10 foot hover is just so perfectly evocative for the subclass.
Nothing like being menacingly carried by bees!
For me interesting play is not the same as power level. I will do an opinion combat+utility rank next to each. S-E scale
my next to play list is:
1. Swarmkeeper. [A+] just so many fun options and character ideas. Least situational of all the abilities. Slime ranger ; kenku with raven flock, yuanti snake swarm, Living warforge hive. and alot more.
2. horizon walker. [A-] If i was playing a campaign where the dm said there would be planar travel this is what I want to play.
3. more PHB beast master[ S-E depending on dm]. still solid flavor lots to do and character growth and changes as the campain moves along.
4. 50/50 Gloom stalker[A] or drake warden(pending changes). wouldn't mind trying it but I would want it under specific campaign settings or known party needs/roles.
5. Hunter ranger. [B] none of mechanics inspire role play potential in me. probably would play one for a AOE heavy game.
6. fey wanderer. [B]More situational than #4. I like the idea of a face ranger but I would rather watch one played than play one.
7. Monster hunter.[C+] Just ok in my mind. maybe if I knew the BBGE at the end of the campaign. not as fun of a design as others.
8. Tasha's beasts. [B] The epitome of wizards turning rpg mechanics into videogame/boardgamey style mechanics. no thanks.
Treantmonk is going through a series of ranking every sublcass. when he gets to rouge and ranger it will be super interesting. I wonder if he will S rank scout rogue which he basically means its too powerful and steps on other classes toes (I think he actually uses the phase "invalidates parts of play").
It will be interesting to see
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Did he just give monk as a whole an "F"? I know he has not been the class's biggest fan.
It would be interesting his thoughts on rangers though as he tends to play towards the "optimal = better" angle more often than not.
I don't know how much stock I'd put in treanmonk's reviews as I don't think he's very objective or balanced about it at all; he seems to review everything from the most whiteroom of "damage is the only thing that ever matters" of perspectives.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
Yeah thats what I was thinking as well....I find certain subclasses just fascinating (Mastermind Rogue) even though they are on the lower end damage wise.
He's actually one of the few people that thought Ranger was fine(-ish) before Tasha's and he's supposedly taking Tasha's changes into consideration for his subclass rankings.
He also put out a video explaining why white room damage calculations are next to useless as a metric for power...now we just need to see if he follows his own advice (he won't.)
His rankings are OK but heavily biased. I heavily disagreed with cleric rankings which were generally C tier, when clerics hold some of the key spells in the game and with spells prepared have one of the broadest options for spells of any caster. His views within each group are interesting though. He is inconsistent in his rubric at times.
yeah he also had a variant that he used for ranger: ranger-the-treantmonk-variant-_-gm-binder1.1.pdf (wordpress.com)
That basically did what a lot of people suggested you be able to do: Swap your Favored Enemy and Natural Explorer terrain. Plus the feature he uses gives you more advantages over your FE than the original did.
Overall I like his version better TBH.
He specifically is clear about how and why he distills things out creating a perspective. By giving the explanation It helps players make better informed choices. Yes he has a focus on optimization but he actively states where its bad and too much. He is willing to correct his opinion/flaws (at least in the comments). and along the way you learn good principles to create good rankings rather than it feels good or bad.
Some times he adds a tone that makes things sound worse than they are. In his system a C is still a good class you just need to put work/planing into it.
Being able to quantify the standards is half the battle. Too many famous youtubers can't even do that right.