While the level 1 peace domain cleric ability is strong, that is a lot to demand from a level 20 party.
First, and I realize you and I don’t see eye to eye on this point, Tasha’s is an optional book. There are DMs that allow stuff from Tasha’s that DON’T allow the peace domain. So this isn’t a given as an option to even have.
Second, being within 30 feet of one another, especially for a ranger with a longbow, is just this side of ludicrous at level 20. Any number of spells and monster abilities (I’m looking at you dragon’s breath) would love for the party to be within 30 feet of each other. Catching 2 PCs without this buff is better for the party than catching 5 PCs with this buff
Third, this costs an action. All of these so far, except the handbook foe slayer, costs at least one action. I’m not sure this is the best use of the ranger’s action. Strong ability? Yes. Stronger than conjure animals? No.
And last, one d4? Bless can duplicate this ability with a more potent version for the same action with a 50 gp spell scroll or cast/upcast bless spell by more than half of the possible classes in the game.
While the level 1 peace domain cleric ability is strong, that is a lot to demand from a level 20 party.
First, and I realize you and I don’t see eye to eye on this point, Tasha’s is an optional book. There are DMs that allow stuff from Tasha’s that DON’T allow the peace domain. So this isn’t a given as an option to even have.
Second, being within 30 feet of one another, especially for a ranger with a longbow, is just this side of ludicrous at level 20. Any number of spells and monster abilities (I’m looking at you dragon’s breath) would love for the party to be within 30 feet of each other. Catching 2 PCs without this buff is better for the party than catching 5 PCs with this buff
Third, this costs an action. All of these so far, except the handbook foe slayer, costs at least one action. I’m not sure this is the best use of the ranger’s action. Strong ability? Yes. Stronger than conjure animals? No.
And last, one d4? Bless can duplicate this ability with a more potent version for the same action with a 50 gp spell scroll or cast/upcast bless spell by more than half of the possible classes in the game.
You can't use spell scrolls outside of your class:
A spell scroll bears the words of a single spell, written in a mystical cipher. If the spell is on your class’s spell list, you can read the scroll and cast its spell without providing any material components. Otherwise, the scroll is unintelligible. Casting the spell by reading the scroll requires the spell’s normal casting time. Once the spell is cast, the words on the scroll fade, and it crumbles to dust. If the casting is interrupted, the scroll is not lost.
So no you can't just use a scroll.
You can simply move within 30 ft and allow the party the feature...its not that big of a stretch to be within 30ft of the Fighter/Rogue/Paladin/Monk so they can potentially land a hit with 2d4. Especially if said creature is already engaged with one or more of them...its trivial really.
Your idea is the ranger 19/cleric1 is going to want to be within 30 feet of the party on round one, and then everyone stay with 30 feet of someone else the entire battle? Maybe.
Where is 2d4 from? Both bless and the cleric ability? Who is doing that? The ranger? So two complete actions to set this up?
All of these scenarios you’re suggesting are starting to sound very situational in their own right.
Wouldnt it make more sense for a paladin or barbarian to take this 1 level dip for the peace cleric ability?
Your idea is the ranger 19/cleric1 is going to want to be within 30 feet of the party on round one, and then everyone stay with 30 feet of someone else the entire battle? Maybe.
Where is 2d4 from? Both bless and the cleric ability? Who is doing that? The ranger? So two complete actions to set this up?
All of these scenarios you’re suggesting are starting to sound very situational in their own right.
Wouldnt it make more sense for a paladin or barbarian to take this 1 level dip for the peace cleric ability?
One action can be 10 mins before a fight
I know at least in my experience that I have at least one fight per encounter day I can see coming at least 10 mins away
They are literally the opposite of situational compared to PHB foe Slayer as you can't even use it without the creature being the right type.
Tashas version only works if you give up your concentration which we both agree can be better spent on a lot of other things at level 20.
Theoretically foe slayer is more situational. I’m not sure that’s the point. When that situation presents itself it is VERY good, as is much with the ranger. When that situation doesn’t present itself, I don’t think this one ability from the peace domain cleric is what a ranger should be using their action for, even if cast before a combat starts. I know you like it. But that 1d4 once isn’t going to surpass an active foe slayer over an entire day between long rests.
Theoretically foe slayer is more situational. I’m not sure that’s the point. When that situation presents itself it is VERY good, as is much with the ranger. When that situation doesn’t present itself, I don’t think this one ability from the peace domain cleric is what a ranger should be using their action for, even if cast before a combat starts. I know you like it. But that 1d4 once isn’t going to surpass an active foe slayer over an entire day between long rests.
When the situation presents itself its at most a +5 to one attack per turn. I would not consider that to be very good since abilities that add extra damage to one attack per turn are a dime a dozen and usually pop up in a player's kit long before level 20. The bonus to hit is nice, but not really enough to make this stellar at this level, since at level 20 you will probably have a +11 to hit to begin with (maybe more depending on fighting style). Unless you are using SS or GWM and using foe slayer to offset the penalty, I dont see the extra bonus to hit as necessary as a +16 to hit to me seems overkill for most things. Even then, you should not have to pick an optional feat to get the most use out of this ability.
Also, because it is creature dependent, I dont think you can really compare 1d4 to "foe slayer over an entire day" since it is not guaranteed foe slayer will actually be active in every fight during that day.
I understand how people see and feel about foe slayer on paper. But mathematically and within the context of an adventuring party, it is strong. Switching it out for something that is either a one level dip, that almost any PC can take, from an optional book or for a 1st level spell that most of the spellcasting classes have already, is not a great trade.
If the +5 to damage is insignificant, then so is the math increase from the cleric ability. If the +5 to hit is insignificant, then so is the random and smaller increase from the cleric ability. Foe slayer works for either, when you need it.
I really think you all are too hung up on the favored enemy part of this. A ranger has 3 favored enemy choices at this point. Fiends, aberrations, dragons, or undead are going to be a part of a level 20 campaign, and you are going to know because it’s not going to be random occurrences. It’s going to be a huge part of the campaign storyline. Comparing that to a once a day one minute paladin ability or a barbarian getting +2 to strength and constitution, it’s on par.
Theoretically foe slayer is more situational. I’m not sure that’s the point. When that situation presents itself it is VERY good, as is much with the ranger. When that situation doesn’t present itself, I don’t think this one ability from the peace domain cleric is what a ranger should be using their action for, even if cast before a combat starts. I know you like it. But that 1d4 once isn’t going to surpass an active foe slayer over an entire day between long rests.
When the situation presents itself its at most a +5 to one attack per turn. I would not consider that to be very good since abilities that add extra damage to one attack per turn are a dime a dozen and usually pop up in a player's kit long before level 20. The bonus to hit is nice, but not really enough to make this stellar at this level, since at level 20 you will probably have a +11 to hit to begin with (maybe more depending on fighting style). Unless you are using SS or GWM and using foe slayer to offset the penalty, I dont see the extra bonus to hit as necessary as a +16 to hit to me seems overkill for most things. Even then, you should not have to pick an optional feat to get the most use out of this ability.
Also, because it is creature dependent, I dont think you can really compare 1d4 to "foe slayer over an entire day" since it is not guaranteed foe slayer will actually be active in every fight during that day.
Especially if you have finite uses of it if you are using Tashas version.
I understand how people see and feel about foe slayer on paper. But mathematically and within the context of an adventuring party, it is strong. Switching it out for something that is either a one level dip, that almost any PC can take, from an optional book or for a 1st level spell that most of the spellcasting classes have already, is not a great trade.
If the +5 to damage is insignificant, then so is the math increase from the cleric ability. If the +5 to hit is insignificant, then so is the random and smaller increase from the cleric ability. Foe slayer works for either, when you need it.
I really think you all are too hung up on the favored enemy part of this. A ranger has 3 favored enemy choices at this point. Fiends, aberrations, dragons, or undead are going to be a part of a level 20 campaign, and you are going to know because it’s not going to be random occurrences. It’s going to be a huge part of the campaign storyline. Comparing that to a once a day one minute paladin ability or a barbarian getting +2 to strength and constitution, it’s on par.
Heres the thing, I am arguing that Foe Slayer is not strong in and of itself. I am not saying that it is weak compared to a one level dip. Thats Optimus' argument.
A +5 to hit when you already have a +11 to hit is not going to be necessary in alot of scenarios, because most creatures outside of you game-ending bosses wont have an AC higher than 18 or 20. Sure, a +5 to hit against Tiamat is great (albeit only once per turn), but its overkill against Tiamat's minions.
A +5 to damage is underwhelming at this level. There is no math that can change that. I already provided a list of features that will give you bonuses to damage that you get way earlier in the campaign (levels 3-10). Any other ability that gives you +1d8 damage once per turn will (on average) return almost the same amount of damage. Heck, if I want to just do one attack that deals +5 damage, I can take the Charger feat, and that is not even dependent on one of my modifiers being maxed out. Now, Foe Slayer damage could potentially stack with a couple of other damage abilities, but in and of itself is pretty underwhelming.
You can show me the math if you would like, but the only major value I see from this ability is the bonus to accuracy against BIG enemies (ones with huge AC). Even then, those enemies have a bunch of health, so if you choose to take the +5 to hit, you do not get the opportunity to wittle their health away with the +5 damage.
I think Foe Slayer would be better if it gave you BOTH the +5 to hit and +5 to damage and would even be a super strong ability if it werent limited to only one of your attacks every turn.
As another point, I understand the argument that not all capstones need to be equally powerful, but there is one thing they share. Every capstone is what your class is ultimately building towards. Even if they are not all equally powerful, because they are the final thing a player can get for that character every capstone at least should excite or entice the player. With the number of limitations that Foe Slayer comes with (choose between attack or damage, only once per turn, only against favored enemies), it just is not exciting. I know that it may be easy to dismiss that sentiment as just being about feelings and not "math" but if you ever get the opportunity to play a character all the way through to level 20, achieving that final level should be big and exciting. You can tell the player all day long that mathematically an ability isnt bad, but it wont do alot to keep them from feeling underwhelmed by their character, especially when they look at the Barbarian who now has a 24 in Strength or the Druid that can Wildshape all day long. D&D is a game where the players are meant to have fun. So how a player feels about their feature is nearly as important as how good it is mathematically. The math doesnt matter if you're not having fun.
You kind indirectly showed its flexibility there. Minion? Take the damage. Boss? Take the to-hit. Already have several dozen abilities, spells, or magic items that add to damage or to-hit? Foe slayer stacks with any/all of them.
This is a consistent, action free, and resource free (and very thematic) boost to the ranger's martial prowess that works in conjunction with how the ranger delivers many of their proprietary combat spells and is used against the main antagonist and/or their minions and/or the main combat threat at the end of a campaign.
I don't know how often or how long all of you folks are playing at level 20, but from what I've done, seen, and heard, having a main known antagonist of a known creature type that has groups or legions of the same creature type is the norm to like a 95% level. I don't want to say foe slayer will be up most of the time, but I'm thinking that is in fact the case for all 1 to 3 sessions of level 20.
I think the peace cleric (most clerics actually as they get their subclass at level 1 and they are wisdom based) is one of the stronger contenders for a dip for ranger. Anything else, even rogue, just isn't enough by a long shot.
You kind indirectly showed its flexibility there. Minion? Take the damage. Boss? Take the to-hit. Already have several dozen abilities, spells, or magic items that add to damage or to-hit? Foe slayer stacks with any/all of them.
Yeah, but its unlikely that someone who builds fully into ranger will have "dozens" of abilities that add to damage. They might have one from their subclass (since most get a bonus 1d4-1d8 way earlier) and one from a feat. +5 damage once per turn may be impactful at lower levels (which is why Colossus Slayer could be impactful at 3rd level), but +5 damage once per turn wont do a whole lot at level 20, even against "minion" monsters. Enemies with little enough health for the +5 to be beneficial will probably be coming at you in waves and army sizes in order to be a challenge, so the +5 against one enemy per turn will be drowned out by the sheer volume of creatures being thrown at you just to challenge a party of 20th level adventurers.
So again, my opinion is that the +5 to hit may be nice against stronger enemies, but +5 damage once per turn is too little too late. To be a challenge, you will either be fighting enemies with too much HP for it to matter or too many small HP enemies for killing maybe a single one per turn to matter.
As I look at the feature its actually a more useful feature without using Tasha's. With Tasha's you need to burn your concentration on favored foe and you get favored foe prof bonus times per long rest.
With PHB you have it with your favored enemies which could be every round, no concentration depending on the encounter.
You are coming up with situations specifically to put this ability into a bad light.
Lots of minions? Conjure animals, hails of thorns, spike growth, conjure volley, lightning arrow, plant growth, conjure barrage, swift quiver, take your pick.
One larger enemy? Why won't a +5 to hit or damage, your choice, be useful? A barbarian is getting an extra + 4 damage. A paladin is getting a thing for a minute, once per day. No one is doing as much damage with a weapon at this level as a fighter. They shouldn't. That's all a fighter has to do. It's literally their one job. Rangers are the only martial class that could even think about handling a mob of enemies. Other martials don't even have the option. Barbarians and paladins are also 99% relegated to melee combat at these levels. At level 20, if you are fighting a single boss creature, it is tough if you are on foot and have to hit it with a stick. A ranger is attacking from a distance, possibly firing 4 arrows a round, maybe involving conjured animals to help the melee party members, able to hide as a bonus action, and does NOT attack at disadvantage if they can't see the target! Fog cloud, darkness, whatever the situation, the ranger is attacking a lot, with accuracy, and able to bring even more pain to the table through assisting the others in her party, and all of that at level 19. One more level and now it's free extra accuracy or damage each round against the most common, most potent, and known threat of the campaign suitable for heroes of this level.
You are coming up with situations specifically to put this ability into a bad light.
Lots of minions? Conjure animals, hails of thorns, spike growth, conjure volley, lightning arrow, plant growth, conjure barrage, swift quiver, take your pick.
One larger enemy? Why won't a +5 to hit or damage, your choice, be useful? A barbarian is getting an extra + 4 damage. A paladin is getting a thing for a minute, once per day. No one is doing as much damage with a weapon at this level as a fighter. They shouldn't. That's all a fighter has to do. It's literally their one job. Rangers are the only martial class that could even think about handling a mob of enemies. Other martials don't even have the option. Barbarians and paladins are also 99% relegated to melee combat at these levels. At level 20, if you are fighting a single boss creature, it is tough if you are on foot and have to hit it with a stick. A ranger is attacking from a distance, possible firing 4 arrows a round, maybe involving conjured animals to help the melee party members, able to hide as a bonus action, and does NOT attack at disadvantage if they can't see the target! Fog cloud, darkness, whatever the situation, the ranger is attacking a lot, with accuracy, and able to bring even more pain to the table by assisting the others in her party, and all of that at level 19. One more level and now it's free extra accuracy or damage each round.
I outlined two very general scenarios. Either there's a few enemies have a bunch of HP or there are alot of enemies with a little to moderate amounts of HP. If on the other hand you only a few enemies with only a little to moderate amounts of HP, then it is unlikely the encounter is even meant to challenge the party at level 20. In either of these former scenarios, it is unlikely the +5 will be impactful.
Also, you say that what sets Rangers apart from other martial classes is their ability to deal with mobs, but Foe Slayer does nothing to help with mobs. It is by design a single target ability. A single target ability that helps you once per turn. +5 damage per turn is nowhere near enough to make the Ranger stand out at level 20 at excelling at single target damage like a Fighter, Rogue, or Paladin. Heck, the Paladin has been getting +1d8 damage on every attack since level 11, and the rogue is way past that with their sneak attack damage as a once per turn feature. The fighter at 11 gets a whole extra attack with who knows how much damage. As I said before +5 damage against one target once per turn is too little too late at level 20. Its peanuts single target damage compared to other martials' single target output.
As I have maintained, the only useful part of this feature is will be the bonus to accuracy but even that doesnt feel helpful if you arent pairing it with something else (like SS or a spell that relies on a weapon attack...but most of those are Paladin smites to begin with).
In any case, I have made my points and am I comfortable with them. I dont feel up for a back and forth in the forums today, so I am just gonna unsubscribe at this point. Best of luck
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Ok. Right. So a fighter doing 1d8+5, a rogue doing another 1d6, or a barbarian doing another 4 damage a round IS impactful somehow? All of these aren't impactful by the standard you're setting.
What are we comparing this foe slayer to? Other level 20 abilities from other classes? Other abilities that might be gained by multiclassing for level 20? +5 to hit or +5 to damage is not nothing. If 5 damage is meaningless, why even attack? Do something else with your entire turn altogether.
Foe slayer gives the ranger a bump for single target enemies that also helps with their delivery system of combat magic. Ensnaring strike, hail of thorns, hunter's mark, sharpshooter (feat, not magic), lightning arrow, and swift quiver, all utilize hitting with an arrow. Foe slayer makes that hit almost guaranteed, and when not needed to hit, extra damage. A fighter archer deals more damage by shooting more arrows, perhaps as many as 20 arrows in a battle, each battle all day. A ranger is shooting 1 or 2 arrows a day which are boosted by their magic and class abilities. Foe slayer DOES help with how the ranger is designed and should be played.
1. Rangers don't get two attacks and a bit of damage. From their subclass, Rangers actually get three attacks+ and a little bit of damage by level 20 (+Swift Quiver/Steel Wind Strike.) By 11th level, all but one Ranger subclass have ways of making a third attack. This is markedly better than Improved Divine Smite and Barbarian Rage, and with feats, better than Sneak Attack at most levels. It's also on par with a Fighter lower than 20th-level, except the Ranger third attacks usually come with riders. And then we get into Swift Quiver.
2. +To attack >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> +to damage. A landed attack might deal a measly five damage on a 20th level threat, but that's still five more than a missed attack, which deals a whopping zero. Accuracy isn't as sexy as damage calcs, but it's far more important. Don't underestimate it.
3. Using Tasha's, Favored Foe can deal 1d8+5 as a rider on a previously landed attack. Know what else does 1d8+5? A one-handed longsword, a longbow, and a rapier. Basically, a Fighter's final Extra Attack capstone. So at worst, Foe Slayer is comparable to Extra Attack by 20th-level. Except remember when I said Ranger third attacks come with riders? This is functionally a Ranger's fourth attack, so it's keeping up with Fighters...plus riders. And honestly, Tasha Favored Foe + Foe Slayer damage is the absolute worst way to use the capstone. Like, my example is absolutely suboptimal and it keeps up with a Fighter + it has riders.
Foe Slayer is not a great capstone by any stretch, but don't underestimate it either.
1. Rangers don't get two attacks and a bit of damage. From their subclass, Rangers actually get three attacks+ and a little bit of damage by level 20 (+Swift Quiver/Steel Wind Strike.) By 11th level, all but one Ranger subclass have ways of making a third attack. This is markedly better than Improved Divine Smite and Barbarian Rage, and with feats, better than Sneak Attack at most levels. It's also on par with a Fighter lower than 20th-level, except the Ranger third attacks usually come with riders. And then we get into Swift Quiver.
2. +To attack >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> +to damage. A landed attack might deal a measly five damage on a 20th level threat, but that's still five more than a missed attack, which deals a whopping zero. Accuracy isn't as sexy as damage calcs, but it's far more important. Don't underestimate it.
3. Using Tasha's, Favored Foe can deal 1d8+5 as a rider on a previously landed attack. Know what else does 1d8+5? A one-handed longsword, a longbow, and a rapier. Basically, a Fighter's final Extra Attack capstone. So at worst, Foe Slayer is comparable to Extra Attack by 20th-level. Except remember when I said Ranger third attacks come with riders? This is functionally a Ranger's fourth attack, so it's keeping up with Fighters...plus riders. And honestly, Tasha Favored Foe + Foe Slayer damage is the absolute worst way to use the capstone. Like, my example is absolutely suboptimal and it keeps up with a Fighter + it has riders.
Foe Slayer is not a great capstone by any stretch, but don't underestimate it either.
The damage output from almost any other concentration based Ranger spell will be better than Favored Foe is the point....or even a 1st level spell like Bless which is just straight up better.
Bless isn’t better than favored foe. And they work together, so no matter which one is better they’re better together.
This has now all become white room theorizing. I know that favored foe is better than folks give it credit for, so I’ll suggest this again. If we want to see what level 20 silliness does or doesn’t bring to the table, let’s take the subclass comparisons we all want and look at all of them at level 19.
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While the level 1 peace domain cleric ability is strong, that is a lot to demand from a level 20 party.
First, and I realize you and I don’t see eye to eye on this point, Tasha’s is an optional book. There are DMs that allow stuff from Tasha’s that DON’T allow the peace domain. So this isn’t a given as an option to even have.
Second, being within 30 feet of one another, especially for a ranger with a longbow, is just this side of ludicrous at level 20. Any number of spells and monster abilities (I’m looking at you dragon’s breath) would love for the party to be within 30 feet of each other. Catching 2 PCs without this buff is better for the party than catching 5 PCs with this buff
Third, this costs an action. All of these so far, except the handbook foe slayer, costs at least one action. I’m not sure this is the best use of the ranger’s action. Strong ability? Yes. Stronger than conjure animals? No.
And last, one d4? Bless can duplicate this ability with a more potent version for the same action with a 50 gp spell scroll or cast/upcast bless spell by more than half of the possible classes in the game.
You can't use spell scrolls outside of your class:
A spell scroll bears the words of a single spell, written in a mystical cipher. If the spell is on your class’s spell list, you can read the scroll and cast its spell without providing any material components. Otherwise, the scroll is unintelligible. Casting the spell by reading the scroll requires the spell’s normal casting time. Once the spell is cast, the words on the scroll fade, and it crumbles to dust. If the casting is interrupted, the scroll is not lost.
So no you can't just use a scroll.
You can simply move within 30 ft and allow the party the feature...its not that big of a stretch to be within 30ft of the Fighter/Rogue/Paladin/Monk so they can potentially land a hit with 2d4. Especially if said creature is already engaged with one or more of them...its trivial really.
Ok. The cleric can’t use the 50 gp scroll.
Your idea is the ranger 19/cleric1 is going to want to be within 30 feet of the party on round one, and then everyone stay with 30 feet of someone else the entire battle? Maybe.
Where is 2d4 from? Both bless and the cleric ability? Who is doing that? The ranger? So two complete actions to set this up?
All of these scenarios you’re suggesting are starting to sound very situational in their own right.
Wouldnt it make more sense for a paladin or barbarian to take this 1 level dip for the peace cleric ability?
One action can be 10 mins before a fight
I know at least in my experience that I have at least one fight per encounter day I can see coming at least 10 mins away
They are literally the opposite of situational compared to PHB foe Slayer as you can't even use it without the creature being the right type.
Tashas version only works if you give up your concentration which we both agree can be better spent on a lot of other things at level 20.
So which is more situational?
Theoretically foe slayer is more situational. I’m not sure that’s the point. When that situation presents itself it is VERY good, as is much with the ranger. When that situation doesn’t present itself, I don’t think this one ability from the peace domain cleric is what a ranger should be using their action for, even if cast before a combat starts. I know you like it. But that 1d4 once isn’t going to surpass an active foe slayer over an entire day between long rests.
When the situation presents itself its at most a +5 to one attack per turn. I would not consider that to be very good since abilities that add extra damage to one attack per turn are a dime a dozen and usually pop up in a player's kit long before level 20. The bonus to hit is nice, but not really enough to make this stellar at this level, since at level 20 you will probably have a +11 to hit to begin with (maybe more depending on fighting style). Unless you are using SS or GWM and using foe slayer to offset the penalty, I dont see the extra bonus to hit as necessary as a +16 to hit to me seems overkill for most things. Even then, you should not have to pick an optional feat to get the most use out of this ability.
Also, because it is creature dependent, I dont think you can really compare 1d4 to "foe slayer over an entire day" since it is not guaranteed foe slayer will actually be active in every fight during that day.
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I understand how people see and feel about foe slayer on paper. But mathematically and within the context of an adventuring party, it is strong. Switching it out for something that is either a one level dip, that almost any PC can take, from an optional book or for a 1st level spell that most of the spellcasting classes have already, is not a great trade.
If the +5 to damage is insignificant, then so is the math increase from the cleric ability. If the +5 to hit is insignificant, then so is the random and smaller increase from the cleric ability. Foe slayer works for either, when you need it.
I really think you all are too hung up on the favored enemy part of this. A ranger has 3 favored enemy choices at this point. Fiends, aberrations, dragons, or undead are going to be a part of a level 20 campaign, and you are going to know because it’s not going to be random occurrences. It’s going to be a huge part of the campaign storyline. Comparing that to a once a day one minute paladin ability or a barbarian getting +2 to strength and constitution, it’s on par.
Especially if you have finite uses of it if you are using Tashas version.
Heres the thing, I am arguing that Foe Slayer is not strong in and of itself. I am not saying that it is weak compared to a one level dip. Thats Optimus' argument.
A +5 to hit when you already have a +11 to hit is not going to be necessary in alot of scenarios, because most creatures outside of you game-ending bosses wont have an AC higher than 18 or 20. Sure, a +5 to hit against Tiamat is great (albeit only once per turn), but its overkill against Tiamat's minions.
A +5 to damage is underwhelming at this level. There is no math that can change that. I already provided a list of features that will give you bonuses to damage that you get way earlier in the campaign (levels 3-10). Any other ability that gives you +1d8 damage once per turn will (on average) return almost the same amount of damage. Heck, if I want to just do one attack that deals +5 damage, I can take the Charger feat, and that is not even dependent on one of my modifiers being maxed out. Now, Foe Slayer damage could potentially stack with a couple of other damage abilities, but in and of itself is pretty underwhelming.
You can show me the math if you would like, but the only major value I see from this ability is the bonus to accuracy against BIG enemies (ones with huge AC). Even then, those enemies have a bunch of health, so if you choose to take the +5 to hit, you do not get the opportunity to wittle their health away with the +5 damage.
I think Foe Slayer would be better if it gave you BOTH the +5 to hit and +5 to damage and would even be a super strong ability if it werent limited to only one of your attacks every turn.
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As another point, I understand the argument that not all capstones need to be equally powerful, but there is one thing they share. Every capstone is what your class is ultimately building towards. Even if they are not all equally powerful, because they are the final thing a player can get for that character every capstone at least should excite or entice the player. With the number of limitations that Foe Slayer comes with (choose between attack or damage, only once per turn, only against favored enemies), it just is not exciting. I know that it may be easy to dismiss that sentiment as just being about feelings and not "math" but if you ever get the opportunity to play a character all the way through to level 20, achieving that final level should be big and exciting. You can tell the player all day long that mathematically an ability isnt bad, but it wont do alot to keep them from feeling underwhelmed by their character, especially when they look at the Barbarian who now has a 24 in Strength or the Druid that can Wildshape all day long. D&D is a game where the players are meant to have fun. So how a player feels about their feature is nearly as important as how good it is mathematically. The math doesnt matter if you're not having fun.
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You kind indirectly showed its flexibility there. Minion? Take the damage. Boss? Take the to-hit. Already have several dozen abilities, spells, or magic items that add to damage or to-hit? Foe slayer stacks with any/all of them.
This is a consistent, action free, and resource free (and very thematic) boost to the ranger's martial prowess that works in conjunction with how the ranger delivers many of their proprietary combat spells and is used against the main antagonist and/or their minions and/or the main combat threat at the end of a campaign.
I don't know how often or how long all of you folks are playing at level 20, but from what I've done, seen, and heard, having a main known antagonist of a known creature type that has groups or legions of the same creature type is the norm to like a 95% level. I don't want to say foe slayer will be up most of the time, but I'm thinking that is in fact the case for all 1 to 3 sessions of level 20.
I think the peace cleric (most clerics actually as they get their subclass at level 1 and they are wisdom based) is one of the stronger contenders for a dip for ranger. Anything else, even rogue, just isn't enough by a long shot.
Yeah, but its unlikely that someone who builds fully into ranger will have "dozens" of abilities that add to damage. They might have one from their subclass (since most get a bonus 1d4-1d8 way earlier) and one from a feat. +5 damage once per turn may be impactful at lower levels (which is why Colossus Slayer could be impactful at 3rd level), but +5 damage once per turn wont do a whole lot at level 20, even against "minion" monsters. Enemies with little enough health for the +5 to be beneficial will probably be coming at you in waves and army sizes in order to be a challenge, so the +5 against one enemy per turn will be drowned out by the sheer volume of creatures being thrown at you just to challenge a party of 20th level adventurers.
So again, my opinion is that the +5 to hit may be nice against stronger enemies, but +5 damage once per turn is too little too late. To be a challenge, you will either be fighting enemies with too much HP for it to matter or too many small HP enemies for killing maybe a single one per turn to matter.
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As I look at the feature its actually a more useful feature without using Tasha's. With Tasha's you need to burn your concentration on favored foe and you get favored foe prof bonus times per long rest.
With PHB you have it with your favored enemies which could be every round, no concentration depending on the encounter.
You are coming up with situations specifically to put this ability into a bad light.
Lots of minions? Conjure animals, hails of thorns, spike growth, conjure volley, lightning arrow, plant growth, conjure barrage, swift quiver, take your pick.
One larger enemy? Why won't a +5 to hit or damage, your choice, be useful? A barbarian is getting an extra + 4 damage. A paladin is getting a thing for a minute, once per day. No one is doing as much damage with a weapon at this level as a fighter. They shouldn't. That's all a fighter has to do. It's literally their one job. Rangers are the only martial class that could even think about handling a mob of enemies. Other martials don't even have the option. Barbarians and paladins are also 99% relegated to melee combat at these levels. At level 20, if you are fighting a single boss creature, it is tough if you are on foot and have to hit it with a stick. A ranger is attacking from a distance, possibly firing 4 arrows a round, maybe involving conjured animals to help the melee party members, able to hide as a bonus action, and does NOT attack at disadvantage if they can't see the target! Fog cloud, darkness, whatever the situation, the ranger is attacking a lot, with accuracy, and able to bring even more pain to the table through assisting the others in her party, and all of that at level 19. One more level and now it's free extra accuracy or damage each round against the most common, most potent, and known threat of the campaign suitable for heroes of this level.
I outlined two very general scenarios. Either there's a few enemies have a bunch of HP or there are alot of enemies with a little to moderate amounts of HP. If on the other hand you only a few enemies with only a little to moderate amounts of HP, then it is unlikely the encounter is even meant to challenge the party at level 20. In either of these former scenarios, it is unlikely the +5 will be impactful.
Also, you say that what sets Rangers apart from other martial classes is their ability to deal with mobs, but Foe Slayer does nothing to help with mobs. It is by design a single target ability. A single target ability that helps you once per turn. +5 damage per turn is nowhere near enough to make the Ranger stand out at level 20 at excelling at single target damage like a Fighter, Rogue, or Paladin. Heck, the Paladin has been getting +1d8 damage on every attack since level 11, and the rogue is way past that with their sneak attack damage as a once per turn feature. The fighter at 11 gets a whole extra attack with who knows how much damage. As I said before +5 damage against one target once per turn is too little too late at level 20. Its peanuts single target damage compared to other martials' single target output.
As I have maintained, the only useful part of this feature is will be the bonus to accuracy but even that doesnt feel helpful if you arent pairing it with something else (like SS or a spell that relies on a weapon attack...but most of those are Paladin smites to begin with).
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In any case, I have made my points and am I comfortable with them. I dont feel up for a back and forth in the forums today, so I am just gonna unsubscribe at this point. Best of luck
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Ok. Right. So a fighter doing 1d8+5, a rogue doing another 1d6, or a barbarian doing another 4 damage a round IS impactful somehow? All of these aren't impactful by the standard you're setting.
What are we comparing this foe slayer to? Other level 20 abilities from other classes? Other abilities that might be gained by multiclassing for level 20? +5 to hit or +5 to damage is not nothing. If 5 damage is meaningless, why even attack? Do something else with your entire turn altogether.
Foe slayer gives the ranger a bump for single target enemies that also helps with their delivery system of combat magic. Ensnaring strike, hail of thorns, hunter's mark, sharpshooter (feat, not magic), lightning arrow, and swift quiver, all utilize hitting with an arrow. Foe slayer makes that hit almost guaranteed, and when not needed to hit, extra damage. A fighter archer deals more damage by shooting more arrows, perhaps as many as 20 arrows in a battle, each battle all day. A ranger is shooting 1 or 2 arrows a day which are boosted by their magic and class abilities. Foe slayer DOES help with how the ranger is designed and should be played.
Okay, a couple things that need to be addressed:
1. Rangers don't get two attacks and a bit of damage. From their subclass, Rangers actually get three attacks+ and a little bit of damage by level 20 (+Swift Quiver/Steel Wind Strike.) By 11th level, all but one Ranger subclass have ways of making a third attack. This is markedly better than Improved Divine Smite and Barbarian Rage, and with feats, better than Sneak Attack at most levels. It's also on par with a Fighter lower than 20th-level, except the Ranger third attacks usually come with riders. And then we get into Swift Quiver.
2. +To attack >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> +to damage. A landed attack might deal a measly five damage on a 20th level threat, but that's still five more than a missed attack, which deals a whopping zero. Accuracy isn't as sexy as damage calcs, but it's far more important. Don't underestimate it.
3. Using Tasha's, Favored Foe can deal 1d8+5 as a rider on a previously landed attack. Know what else does 1d8+5? A one-handed longsword, a longbow, and a rapier. Basically, a Fighter's final Extra Attack capstone. So at worst, Foe Slayer is comparable to Extra Attack by 20th-level. Except remember when I said Ranger third attacks come with riders? This is functionally a Ranger's fourth attack, so it's keeping up with Fighters...plus riders. And honestly, Tasha Favored Foe + Foe Slayer damage is the absolute worst way to use the capstone. Like, my example is absolutely suboptimal and it keeps up with a Fighter + it has riders.
Foe Slayer is not a great capstone by any stretch, but don't underestimate it either.
The damage output from almost any other concentration based Ranger spell will be better than Favored Foe is the point....or even a 1st level spell like Bless which is just straight up better.
Bless isn’t better than favored foe. And they work together, so no matter which one is better they’re better together.
This has now all become white room theorizing. I know that favored foe is better than folks give it credit for, so I’ll suggest this again. If we want to see what level 20 silliness does or doesn’t bring to the table, let’s take the subclass comparisons we all want and look at all of them at level 19.