I like your hunter list better...makes a lot of sense. I did the smite spells as I like the idea of the hunter ranger being the one who can deal with the special big bads...the invisible ones get the branding smite and the outsiders get the banish smite. But I like your list for the same reason it just takes a different approach and takes away the need for the BA action economy which helps.
BM list is pretty good...find familar is a perfect addition that I am angry I didn't think of lol. Hypnotic pattern is a bit?? to be honest....its a very good spell but I fail to see the connection theme wise. Also BM needs Awaken...thats a given so that you can make your beast sentient and make a cop show together.
Dragon one is pretty close to mine and it looks great to me. I would incorporate at least one of the dragon spells myself but it looks good.
I don’t think this is the case. Every single class and sub class with access to spellcasting capabilities has “good choices“ and “less good choices“. Handbook Rangers have a short spell list to begin with, so it only makes sense to me that they have some “go to spells“.
JC has has already alluded to the idea that spellcasting for Rangers is almost more of a class feature conceptually. I think this is all splitting hairs to be honest. What you are suggesting is giving a sub class specific spells, just like the ones in XGtE, and allowing them to pick from the Rangers spell list. I am suggesting you give them some powerful go to spells from the Ranger spell list allowing them to pick some additional ones that they might enjoy.
And, no offense, but I think that's bad design. Because rangers learn their spells and have access to so few, all their bonus spells should be from outside the class. It's not that dissimilar to how the warlock patrons' expanded spell lists all give them new options from outside the class. Pick those options, darnit!
Going back to the cleric/druid/paladin example, those are all prepared spellcasters. The subclasses which grant bonus spells (and they don't all do, but they're the exception) grant between 9-10 bonus spells. Sometimes one of those is a cantrip. But those spell lists all pull from a mix of spells found both on their class' spell list and off it. So, if we're going to entertain the idea of making rangers into prepared spellcasters like the paladin, then we should follow the paladin's model. Only four of the paladin's 10 bonus spells for Oath of Devotion are found on their class spell list. So I'm officially putting forth the idea that maybe they should have 10 bonus spells, and that only about half are naturally on the ranger spell list.
Of course, this means going back and revising all of the expanded spell lists to bring them up to this new hypothetical standard. But that's more work, and I'm trying to not reinvent the wheel by sticking to the standard already set by WotC. Still, if we're going to do it we may as well not be lazy about it.
The beast master could crazy benefit from spells outside their spell list. Healing word, warding bond, spirit guardians, death ward. So too the hunter. Divine favor, enhance ability, protection from energy. Or don’t ranger for that matter. Has anyone mentioned how the XGtE and TCoE ranger spells are part of their subclass and either do little or carry a few levels for them?
Many ranger spells work so well for them. The vengeance paladin gets a huge boost from hunter’s mark. The artificer gets conjure barrage. I can see where you’re going with wanting to give them expanded options, but so many of their spells are going to be “go to“ spells even with expended options from other class lists. At least for me.
I know they could both benefit immensely from spells outside the ranger spell list. That's why all my choices are outside the ranger's spell list. I opted for command over healing word because I thought that was a more interesting choice. (That said, if we're going to prepared spellcasting and giving two spells per level I'd incorporate both.) I previously included enhance ability and warding bond, but they were added to the ranger spell list in Tasha's so I retooled my homebrew using some other ideas I had already cobbled together. I don't delete my notes.
Now, whether or not you think the other subclass spells are a huge factor is a matter of perspective. Gloom Stalker gets disguise self, rope trick, and seeming; among other. That's someone who hides in wait and tries to pass "unseen" by looking like someone else. They're a social ranger. Horizon Walker gets misty step; and you cannot seriously tell me that isn't getting used throughout an entire campaign.
I like your hunter list better...makes a lot of sense. I did the smite spells as I like the idea of the hunter ranger being the one who can deal with the special big bads...the invisible ones get the branding smite and the outsiders get the banish smite. But I like your list for the same reason it just takes a different approach and takes away the need for the BA action economy which helps.
BM list is pretty good...find familar is a perfect addition that I am angry I didn't think of lol. Hypnotic pattern is a bit?? to be honest....its a very good spell but I fail to see the connection theme wise. Also BM needs Awaken...thats a given so that you can make your beast sentient and make a cop show together.
Dragon one is pretty close to mine and it looks great to me. I would incorporate at least one of the dragon spells myself but it looks good.
Thanks, for the BM list I added Hypnotic Pattern with the thinking that calming animals through hypnosis is something a BM would do, and also because honestly, looking at the list of spells (with trying not to repeat spells on another Ranger list) I didn't really see anything else that fits. As for Awaken I do like it, but honestly it's something you would cast once the entire campaign - Awaken your beast then you likely wouldn't use it again. I would just let the beast become awakened.
Hrrrmmm, Awaken - gives it an intel of 10 and a Lang. You speak, then charms it for 30 days and then it (not you) decides whether to stay with you or not. Several questions - would it work with Tasha’s primal companion beast? Would it even survive the 30 days of charming to be able to make the decision? Assuming it does if you’ve been sending it into combats regularly, even if your healing it afterward is it more likely to join you or to leave for somewhere (anywhere) safer and more survivable? You may actually be better off without this spell.
Hrrrmmm, Awaken - gives it an intel of 10 and a Lang. You speak, then charms it for 30 days and then it (not you) decides whether to stay with you or not. Several questions - would it work with Tasha’s primal companion beast? Would it even survive the 30 days of charming to be able to make the decision? Assuming it does if you’ve been sending it into combats regularly, even if your healing it afterward is it more likely to join you or to leave for somewhere (anywhere) safer and more survivable? You may actually be better off without this spell.
I would like to see a few spells receive some very minor adjustments.
First, I would just love it if spike growth did not require a M component and if it were a bonus action to cast. I think that is just this side of a little over powered, but the spell would see a lot more play with these adjustments.
I would like to see a few spells receive some very minor adjustments.
First, I would just love it if spike growth did not require a M component and if it were a bonus action to cast. I think that is just this side of a little over powered, but the spell would see a lot more play with these adjustments.
I think that while improvement to the spells would make them more likely picks over the "go to spells", but then we would need to consider the other classes that are getting those spells earlier than ranger, which could have unintended power increase to classes that may not need it.
I would like to see a few spells receive some very minor adjustments.
First, I would just love it if spike growth did not require a M component and if it were a bonus action to cast. I think that is just this side of a little over powered, but the spell would see a lot more play with these adjustments.
I would like hunters Mark to increase in damage with higher slots along with longer duration. Like if you use a 5th level slot it's a d10
It would make it pretty powerful but overall still way behind conjure animals
I would like hunters Mark to increase in damage with higher slots along with longer duration. Like if you use a 5th level slot it's a d10
It would make it pretty powerful but overall still way behind conjure animals
Does conjure animals really need to be on such a pedestal as summoning is generally troublesome for both the designers and some dungeon masters. That being said I do think much of the problems beastmaster has is that they are exceeding cautious of the "permanent" companions that are the core feature of the subclass (which is kind of sad as they put so much design weight into the subclass only to have it basically have high potential design limits).
I would like to see a few spells receive some very minor adjustments.
First, I would just love it if spike growth did not require a M component and if it were a bonus action to cast. I think that is just this side of a little over powered, but the spell would see a lot more play with these adjustments.
I think that while improvement to the spells would make them more likely picks over the "go to spells", but then we would need to consider the other classes that are getting those spells earlier than ranger, which could have unintended power increase to classes that may not need it.
I would like hunters Mark to increase in damage with higher slots along with longer duration. Like if you use a 5th level slot it's a d10
It would make it pretty powerful but overall still way behind conjure animals
Does conjure animals really need to be on such a pedestal as summoning is generally troublesome for both the designers and some dungeon masters. That being said I do think much of the problems beastmaster has is that they are exceeding cautious of the "permanent" companions that are the core feature of the subclass (which is kind of sad as they put so much design weight into the subclass only to have it basically have high potential design limits).
Hunter’s mark and conjure animals is the ranger’s divine smite/action surge/fireball.
Hunter’s mark and conjure animals is the ranger’s divine smite/action surge/fireball.
That is kind of sad/lazy design or sentiment as Druid gets conjure animals 4 levels (with more spells slots to use it) sooner and they hand hunter's mark to the Vengeance Paladin. Not to bring up the arguments of previous pages in the thread, but that make the ranger feel less unique.
Hunter’s mark and conjure animals is the ranger’s divine smite/action surge/fireball.
That is kind of sad/lazy design or sentiment as Druid gets conjure animals 4 levels (with more spells slots to use it) sooner and they hand hunter's mark to the Vengeance Paladin. Not to bring up the arguments of previous pages in the thread, but that make the ranger feel less unique.
I think that’s more of an opinion. That’s comparing rangers (yet again to multiple types of builds at the same time) to full caster and a very specific subclass.
I would like to see a few spells receive some very minor adjustments.
First, I would just love it if spike growth did not require a M component and if it were a bonus action to cast. I think that is just this side of a little over powered, but the spell would see a lot more play with these adjustments.
I think that while improvement to the spells would make them more likely picks over the "go to spells", but then we would need to consider the other classes that are getting those spells earlier than ranger, which could have unintended power increase to classes that may not need it.
Very true.
So give the revised one a new name and just list it as a ranger spell - so spiked growth with changes becomes A ranger only spell with the changes called thorn growth.
Hunter’s mark and conjure animals is the ranger’s divine smite/action surge/fireball.
That is kind of sad/lazy design or sentiment as Druid gets conjure animals 4 levels (with more spells slots to use it) sooner and they hand hunter's mark to the Vengeance Paladin. Not to bring up the arguments of previous pages in the thread, but that make the ranger feel less unique.
I think that’s more of an opinion. That’s comparing rangers (yet again to multiple types of builds at the same time) to full caster and a very specific subclass.
It is an observation, how often is Ranger described in terms of druid/fighter/rogue or being likened to the druid as the paladin is likened to the cleric. The vast majority of the spell list is paired down from the Druid (it took Fizban's to have the number of different spells hit a dozen). They even added a fighting style Druidic warrior like it or not at least within the fantasy of dungeons and dragons there is just as much druid elements as anything else.
Hunter’s mark and conjure animals is the ranger’s divine smite/action surge/fireball.
That is kind of sad/lazy design or sentiment as Druid gets conjure animals 4 levels (with more spells slots to use it) sooner and they hand hunter's mark to the Vengeance Paladin. Not to bring up the arguments of previous pages in the thread, but that make the ranger feel less unique.
I think that’s more of an opinion. That’s comparing rangers (yet again to multiple types of builds at the same time) to full caster and a very specific subclass.
It is an observation, how often is Ranger described in terms of druid/fighter/rogue or being likened to the druid as the paladin is likened to the cleric. The vast majority of the spell list is paired down from the Druid (it took Fizban's to have the number of different spells hit a dozen). They even added a fighting style Druidic warrior like it or not at least within the fantasy of dungeons and dragons there is just as much druid elements as anything else.
Ok. An observation. You see that as bad? That’s what draws me to the class, the melding. You’re cherry picking saying ranger getting a (maybe the best) druid spell is bad, but a subclass getting hunter’s mark is bad. That’s…all over the place. Rangers get BOTH!
Maybe paladins and rangers shouldn’t get extra attack since the fighters already get it.
And most of the sorcerer spell list is gone because wizards get those spells.
Cure wounds is a cleric spell, so bards suck.
Rogues use skills so no one else can. Or shouldn’t as that’s just copying rogues.
Now you are just being belligerent with that, I get it you and I will not find a common ground on this subject and that is fine. It really is no longer even adding any value to the discussion.
We know that class fantasy uniqueness was a large part of the early design process and from the playtest material there was barely enough to give the ranger two subclasses.
This part is opinion, but you could build hunter back into the core class and that alone would do a lot for the class. Not that it will happen. In having to maintain the original print of the class they can not really get past the poor foundation they used to build the class.
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I like your hunter list better...makes a lot of sense. I did the smite spells as I like the idea of the hunter ranger being the one who can deal with the special big bads...the invisible ones get the branding smite and the outsiders get the banish smite. But I like your list for the same reason it just takes a different approach and takes away the need for the BA action economy which helps.
BM list is pretty good...find familar is a perfect addition that I am angry I didn't think of lol. Hypnotic pattern is a bit?? to be honest....its a very good spell but I fail to see the connection theme wise. Also BM needs Awaken...thats a given so that you can make your beast sentient and make a cop show together.
Dragon one is pretty close to mine and it looks great to me. I would incorporate at least one of the dragon spells myself but it looks good.
I know they could both benefit immensely from spells outside the ranger spell list. That's why all my choices are outside the ranger's spell list. I opted for command over healing word because I thought that was a more interesting choice. (That said, if we're going to prepared spellcasting and giving two spells per level I'd incorporate both.) I previously included enhance ability and warding bond, but they were added to the ranger spell list in Tasha's so I retooled my homebrew using some other ideas I had already cobbled together. I don't delete my notes.
Now, whether or not you think the other subclass spells are a huge factor is a matter of perspective. Gloom Stalker gets disguise self, rope trick, and seeming; among other. That's someone who hides in wait and tries to pass "unseen" by looking like someone else. They're a social ranger. Horizon Walker gets misty step; and you cannot seriously tell me that isn't getting used throughout an entire campaign.
Thanks, for the BM list I added Hypnotic Pattern with the thinking that calming animals through hypnosis is something a BM would do, and also because honestly, looking at the list of spells (with trying not to repeat spells on another Ranger list) I didn't really see anything else that fits. As for Awaken I do like it, but honestly it's something you would cast once the entire campaign - Awaken your beast then you likely wouldn't use it again. I would just let the beast become awakened.
Hrrrmmm, Awaken - gives it an intel of 10 and a Lang. You speak, then charms it for 30 days and then it (not you) decides whether to stay with you or not. Several questions - would it work with Tasha’s primal companion beast? Would it even survive the 30 days of charming to be able to make the decision? Assuming it does if you’ve been sending it into combats regularly, even if your healing it afterward is it more likely to join you or to leave for somewhere (anywhere) safer and more survivable? You may actually be better off without this spell.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Fair points!
If I was the dungeon master when awaken was cast on a beast companion, it would cease to be a beast companion.
New angle for “improving the Ranger”.
I would like to see a few spells receive some very minor adjustments.
First, I would just love it if spike growth did not require a M component and if it were a bonus action to cast. I think that is just this side of a little over powered, but the spell would see a lot more play with these adjustments.
I think that while improvement to the spells would make them more likely picks over the "go to spells", but then we would need to consider the other classes that are getting those spells earlier than ranger, which could have unintended power increase to classes that may not need it.
I would like hunters Mark to increase in damage with higher slots along with longer duration. Like if you use a 5th level slot it's a d10
It would make it pretty powerful but overall still way behind conjure animals
Does conjure animals really need to be on such a pedestal as summoning is generally troublesome for both the designers and some dungeon masters. That being said I do think much of the problems beastmaster has is that they are exceeding cautious of the "permanent" companions that are the core feature of the subclass (which is kind of sad as they put so much design weight into the subclass only to have it basically have high potential design limits).
Very true.
Hunter’s mark and conjure animals is the ranger’s divine smite/action surge/fireball.
That is kind of sad/lazy design or sentiment as Druid gets conjure animals 4 levels (with more spells slots to use it) sooner and they hand hunter's mark to the Vengeance Paladin. Not to bring up the arguments of previous pages in the thread, but that make the ranger feel less unique.
I think that’s more of an opinion. That’s comparing rangers (yet again to multiple types of builds at the same time) to full caster and a very specific subclass.
So give the revised one a new name and just list it as a ranger spell - so spiked growth with changes becomes A ranger only spell with the changes called thorn growth.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
It is an observation, how often is Ranger described in terms of druid/fighter/rogue or being likened to the druid as the paladin is likened to the cleric. The vast majority of the spell list is paired down from the Druid (it took Fizban's to have the number of different spells hit a dozen). They even added a fighting style Druidic warrior like it or not at least within the fantasy of dungeons and dragons there is just as much druid elements as anything else.
Ok. An observation. You see that as bad? That’s what draws me to the class, the melding. You’re cherry picking saying ranger getting a (maybe the best) druid spell is bad, but a subclass getting hunter’s mark is bad. That’s…all over the place. Rangers get BOTH!
Maybe paladins and rangers shouldn’t get extra attack since the fighters already get it.
And most of the sorcerer spell list is gone because wizards get those spells.
Cure wounds is a cleric spell, so bards suck.
Rogues use skills so no one else can. Or shouldn’t as that’s just copying rogues.
Anyway, spike growth is good already. But Bran is extremely correct about other classes/subclasses access to it as well.
https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells/spike-growth
Rangers, druids, 2 druid subclasses, 1 cleric subclass, and 1 warlock subclass get it.
I think it would be fine with druids (bonus action cast), and likely with the nature cleric. I don’t know anything about the warlock subclass.
Now you are just being belligerent with that, I get it you and I will not find a common ground on this subject and that is fine. It really is no longer even adding any value to the discussion.
We know that class fantasy uniqueness was a large part of the early design process and from the playtest material there was barely enough to give the ranger two subclasses.
This part is opinion, but you could build hunter back into the core class and that alone would do a lot for the class. Not that it will happen. In having to maintain the original print of the class they can not really get past the poor foundation they used to build the class.