Are the gooom stalker’s abilities useful in a variety of situations other than unlit dungeons and the underdark? Of course! However, that doesn’t mean that they are at peak ability in those situations either. When I say that the gloom stalker represents the underdark environment is where it is at it’s peak getting maximum use of all its abilities. It can be very effective in many places but that doesn’t mean that , to my eyes at least, it was designed for an underdark like environment. Every ranger is designed to be functional in multiple environments/situations but to be at its best in a specific group or at a specific “thing”. The latest bit of this discussion is about possible new subclasses and what that “thing” might be.
What about my question? Artificers, bards, clerics, druids, monks, sorcerers, wizards, and non-hex lad warlocks, and optimized high single target DpR?
You are correct I meant until about level 10...thanks for catching that.
Artificers have some damage builds (CBE+SS Builds mostly) but really shine on mitigating damage more than anything.
Bards are horrible at damage IMO...but they make up for it with huge buffs to the damage dealing classes and debuffing the enemy. The one they do get that is just straight up crazy damage is Animate Objects (Read more here)
Clerics have some OK builds for damage but mostly have really amazing buff subclasses (Peace cleric will destroy bounded accuracy in T1)
Druids have some damage builds (Moon in T1, Star Druid with concentration damage spells)
Monks are only good at damage before level 4....after they drop like a rock and never really catch up. Monks are decent at alot of things though....they have a really high floor but a low ceiling.
Sorcerers and the other blaster casters (Wizard, Warlock) have crazy damage options in spells and just straight up ways to remove something from the fight completely. Once they get the high level spells there is hardly any martials builds that come even relatively close in power.
A thought came to me while reading a different ranger thread (yes occasionally I get a thought) - rangers should automatically get one tool proficiency. They are too variable for it to be a single tool like the rogue’s thieves tools so it needs to be a list they can select from to help define what sort of ranger they are. Some that I think should be on that list: Tinker’s tools - like the ranger itself this is a great catchall that can be used as a “jack of all trades” kit perhaps granting 1/2 proficiency with any other tool set. Healers kit - to go along with spells like cure wounds and goodberry Herbalism kit - really this should be a standard kit for woodsy rangers as well as Druids at least. Cartographer’s tools - map drawing tools are an obvious possibility. Navigator’s tools - same as Cartographers Poisoner’s kit - another obvious possibility Woodworker’s tools - replacing bows, arrows staves, spears etc can be really useful. Leatherworker’s tools - like woodworker’s being able to fix/create armor and leather goods as needed in the wild (or elsewhere) is going to be helpful. Smith’s tools - for when metal things break and the nearest blacksmith is 200+ miles away in the wrong direction 😁
I Could even see gaining one every 5-7 levels. I realize that in some ways that would step on the artificer’s toes but the ranger doesn’t get to do anything special with them like use them as casting Foci, or create magical/semi-magical materials (except for potions from the Herbalism kit) so I don’t think it it would be overstepping.
My rangers and druids almost always have herbalist kit. Crafting healing potions, like harvesting poisons, are a great use of the ample extra downtime a ranger provides to the group. I typically get a tool proficiency from the background, but an extra tool proficiency for the class would be a great add.
As a DM, I use variant encumbrance, so that weight, in addition to the 1 action cost, has never scared me away from letting PCs have potions of healing galore. Tools are very open ended, and I love it.
A thought came to me while reading a different ranger thread (yes occasionally I get a thought) - rangers should automatically get one tool proficiency. They are too variable for it to be a single tool like the rogue’s thieves tools so it needs to be a list they can select from to help define what sort of ranger they are. Some that I think should be on that list: Tinker’s tools - like the ranger itself this is a great catchall that can be used as a “jack of all trades” kit perhaps granting 1/2 proficiency with any other tool set. Healers kit - to go along with spells like cure wounds and goodberry Herbalism kit - really this should be a standard kit for woodsy rangers as well as Druids at least. Cartographer’s tools - map drawing tools are an obvious possibility. Navigator’s tools - same as Cartographers Poisoner’s kit - another obvious possibility Woodworker’s tools - replacing bows, arrows staves, spears etc can be really useful. Leatherworker’s tools - like woodworker’s being able to fix/create armor and leather goods as needed in the wild (or elsewhere) is going to be helpful. Smith’s tools - for when metal things break and the nearest blacksmith is 200+ miles away in the wrong direction 😁
I Could even see gaining one every 5-7 levels. I realize that in some ways that would step on the artificer’s toes but the ranger doesn’t get to do anything special with them like use them as casting Foci, or create magical/semi-magical materials (except for potions from the Herbalism kit) so I don’t think it it would be overstepping.
Any Thoughts?
one item of note: a healers kit isn't actually a tool. anyone can use it to stabalize no check required. Which is why I encourage everyone to take a healers kit. 10 uses for 5gp is is great and few people will need more than one. a ranger with that uses the "terrain" to stabalize gets "expertise" on those medicine checks which is almost as good as carrying a healers kit and can be full of flavor.
I’m thinking about building a ranger for the first time and I have to say, at first it seemed underwhelming. Like cool, I get one attack basically with my bow sometimes twice a round. But the freaking utility is outstanding especially with a wood elf at higher levels. The mix of Druid spells granted by race and the mobility and adaptability is insane. Read lips, known like 7 languages, expert in a handful of terrains, extreme proficiency in utility skills, etc. I think what comes down to a great ranger experience is the world building of the DM honestly.
If you‘re 75% encounters then a ranger might be a bad time without some homebrew love. If you have a great balance of world building, story, and combat, rangers are top tier I think.
The handbook ranger definitely excels in a richly flushed out world. It can be less “effective” in something like a one-shot or organized play like Adventurer’s League. It is still a strong class for me, even in those situations, if approached right.
It’s interesting to see what we are dealing with in regards to then landscape of the default setting. I applied a 6-mile hex grid to this map (standard kingdom scale from the dungeon master’s guide)…
…and it makes the function of travel, and thereby things like primeval awareness, natural explorer, and other spells, skills, and abilities really make a lot more sense for more people.
At lower levels rangers are already very good. It's at higher levels I think they start lagging behind. My main complaint on my level 4 ranger is the very limited spell selection. It's my opinion they should either start preparing spells in the same way as druids, clerics and artificers, or be able to choose more spells. 4 spells feels very limiting when a lot of your kit is focused around exploration/utility.
At lower levels rangers are already very good. It's at higher levels I think they start lagging behind. My main complaint on my level 4 ranger is the very limited spell selection. It's my opinion they should either start preparing spells in the same way as druids, clerics and artificers, or be able to choose more spells. 4 spells feels very limiting when a lot of your kit is focused around exploration/utility.
Welcome to the make Rangers prepared casters team. Its the worst design decision on the class in my opinion.
At lower levels rangers are already very good. It's at higher levels I think they start lagging behind. My main complaint on my level 4 ranger is the very limited spell selection. It's my opinion they should either start preparing spells in the same way as druids, clerics and artificers, or be able to choose more spells. 4 spells feels very limiting when a lot of your kit is focused around exploration/utility.
Welcome to the make Rangers prepared casters team. Its the worst design decision on the class in my opinion.
And when on that team you’ll be having discussions with my team. The “rangers are good, try harder” team.
More stuff is always fun. I always ask folks to think about what they want or feel versus what rangers need.
Also, rangers aren’t fighters. Rangers HAVE to use their spells at higher levels to not start “lagging behind” as you put it. Use the spells.
Yes. They don’t get as many spells as others. I would counter that you don’t need as many plus they do, as you said, very well at lower levels. They are very martial focused at levels 2-10, and move more into a martial/magic hybrid at levels 11+.
Ummm, there are really only 2 models for prepared casters - cleric model where you know all the spells but have to prep a smaller list for actually casting and then can change any you want after a long rest. The other is the Wizard model where you have the spells you know written down in your spellbook and then have to memorize the ones you select to be able to cast and can then change them after a long rest.
And when on that team you’ll be having discussions with my team. The “rangers are good, try harder” team.
More stuff is always fun. I always ask folks to think about what they want or feel versus what rangers need.
Also, rangers aren’t fighters. Rangers HAVE to use their spells at higher levels to not start “lagging behind” as you put it. Use the spells.
Yes. They don’t get as many spells as others. I would counter that you don’t need as many plus they do, as you said, very well at lower levels. They are very martial focused at levels 2-10, and move more into a martial/magic hybrid at levels 11+.
Don't forget it has to be the right spells too.
If you're not using conjure animals pretty much as much as you can you will fall behind.
And when on that team you’ll be having discussions with my team. The “rangers are good, try harder” team.
More stuff is always fun. I always ask folks to think about what they want or feel versus what rangers need.
Also, rangers aren’t fighters. Rangers HAVE to use their spells at higher levels to not start “lagging behind” as you put it. Use the spells.
Yes. They don’t get as many spells as others. I would counter that you don’t need as many plus they do, as you said, very well at lower levels. They are very martial focused at levels 2-10, and move more into a martial/magic hybrid at levels 11+.
Don't forget it has to be the right spells too.
If you're not using conjure animals pretty much as much as you can you will fall behind.
I find hail of thorns, spike growth, and a few others do the trick as well.
And when on that team you’ll be having discussions with my team. The “rangers are good, try harder” team.
More stuff is always fun. I always ask folks to think about what they want or feel versus what rangers need.
Also, rangers aren’t fighters. Rangers HAVE to use their spells at higher levels to not start “lagging behind” as you put it. Use the spells.
Yes. They don’t get as many spells as others. I would counter that you don’t need as many plus they do, as you said, very well at lower levels. They are very martial focused at levels 2-10, and move more into a martial/magic hybrid at levels 11+.
Don't forget it has to be the right spells too.
If you're not using conjure animals pretty much as much as you can you will fall behind.
I find hail of thorns, spike growth, and a few others do the trick as well.
Early on they are the "must pick" list for sure.
And when you run out of 3rd or higher spell slots was well lol
Yes. But even later. 3rd level a slot and higher hail of thorns in the right moment does devastating damage, even non-hunters.
Swift quiver, conjure volley, steel wind strike, summon elemental, summon beast, summon fey, and even absorb elements and ensnaring strike all increase the ranger’s damage output and tactical options considerably. Add all of that to their subclass damage, and they are right there with the others.
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The Gloomstalker gets loads out of its umbral ability in any gloom, even shadows in the sunshine!
Are the gooom stalker’s abilities useful in a variety of situations other than unlit dungeons and the underdark? Of course! However, that doesn’t mean that they are at peak ability in those situations either. When I say that the gloom stalker represents the underdark environment is where it is at it’s peak getting maximum use of all its abilities. It can be very effective in many places but that doesn’t mean that , to my eyes at least, it was designed for an underdark like environment. Every ranger is designed to be functional in multiple environments/situations but to be at its best in a specific group or at a specific “thing”. The latest bit of this discussion is about possible new subclasses and what that “thing” might be.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
I’m going to start a new thread for this.
A thought came to me while reading a different ranger thread (yes occasionally I get a thought) - rangers should automatically get one tool proficiency. They are too variable for it to be a single tool like the rogue’s thieves tools so it needs to be a list they can select from to help define what sort of ranger they are. Some that I think should be on that list:
Tinker’s tools - like the ranger itself this is a great catchall that can be used as a “jack of all trades” kit perhaps granting 1/2 proficiency with any other tool set.
Healers kit - to go along with spells like cure wounds and goodberry
Herbalism kit - really this should be a standard kit for woodsy rangers as well as Druids at least.
Cartographer’s tools - map drawing tools are an obvious possibility.
Navigator’s tools - same as Cartographers
Poisoner’s kit - another obvious possibility
Woodworker’s tools - replacing bows, arrows staves, spears etc can be really useful.
Leatherworker’s tools - like woodworker’s being able to fix/create armor and leather goods as needed in the wild (or elsewhere) is going to be helpful.
Smith’s tools - for when metal things break and the nearest blacksmith is 200+ miles away in the wrong direction 😁
I Could even see gaining one every 5-7 levels. I realize that in some ways that would step on the artificer’s toes but the ranger doesn’t get to do anything special with them like use them as casting Foci, or create magical/semi-magical materials (except for potions from the Herbalism kit) so I don’t think it it would be overstepping.
Any Thoughts?
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
I’m a fan.
My rangers and druids almost always have herbalist kit. Crafting healing potions, like harvesting poisons, are a great use of the ample extra downtime a ranger provides to the group. I typically get a tool proficiency from the background, but an extra tool proficiency for the class would be a great add.
As a DM, I use variant encumbrance, so that weight, in addition to the 1 action cost, has never scared me away from letting PCs have potions of healing galore. Tools are very open ended, and I love it.
one item of note: a healers kit isn't actually a tool. anyone can use it to stabalize no check required. Which is why I encourage everyone to take a healers kit. 10 uses for 5gp is is great and few people will need more than one. a ranger with that uses the "terrain" to stabalize gets "expertise" on those medicine checks which is almost as good as carrying a healers kit and can be full of flavor.
I’m thinking about building a ranger for the first time and I have to say, at first it seemed underwhelming. Like cool, I get one attack basically with my bow sometimes twice a round. But the freaking utility is outstanding especially with a wood elf at higher levels. The mix of Druid spells granted by race and the mobility and adaptability is insane. Read lips, known like 7 languages, expert in a handful of terrains, extreme proficiency in utility skills, etc. I think what comes down to a great ranger experience is the world building of the DM honestly.
If you‘re 75% encounters then a ranger might be a bad time without some homebrew love. If you have a great balance of world building, story, and combat, rangers are top tier I think.
The handbook ranger definitely excels in a richly flushed out world. It can be less “effective” in something like a one-shot or organized play like Adventurer’s League. It is still a strong class for me, even in those situations, if approached right.
Here is a link to a map of the sword coast. https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/map-faerün
It’s interesting to see what we are dealing with in regards to then landscape of the default setting. I applied a 6-mile hex grid to this map (standard kingdom scale from the dungeon master’s guide)…
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/17Mry2EpGkYyjmw7QPxl5KuvAtyKDo3a3
…and it makes the function of travel, and thereby things like primeval awareness, natural explorer, and other spells, skills, and abilities really make a lot more sense for more people.
At lower levels rangers are already very good. It's at higher levels I think they start lagging behind. My main complaint on my level 4 ranger is the very limited spell selection. It's my opinion they should either start preparing spells in the same way as druids, clerics and artificers, or be able to choose more spells. 4 spells feels very limiting when a lot of your kit is focused around exploration/utility.
Welcome to the make Rangers prepared casters team. Its the worst design decision on the class in my opinion.
Agreed!
I'm inclined to agree. Making Rangers prepared casters is pretty much the only change I feel the Ranger still needs at this point.
And when on that team you’ll be having discussions with my team. The “rangers are good, try harder” team.
More stuff is always fun. I always ask folks to think about what they want or feel versus what rangers need.
Also, rangers aren’t fighters. Rangers HAVE to use their spells at higher levels to not start “lagging behind” as you put it. Use the spells.
Yes. They don’t get as many spells as others. I would counter that you don’t need as many plus they do, as you said, very well at lower levels. They are very martial focused at levels 2-10, and move more into a martial/magic hybrid at levels 11+.
Prepared caster yes - but on the Druid/cleric model not the Wizard (spellbook) model.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
I like the paladin model, since they're half-casters. I'd also want to look at expanding the bonus spells for each subclass to match.
Ummm, there are really only 2 models for prepared casters - cleric model where you know all the spells but have to prep a smaller list for actually casting and then can change any you want after a long rest. The other is the Wizard model where you have the spells you know written down in your spellbook and then have to memorize the ones you select to be able to cast and can then change them after a long rest.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Don't forget it has to be the right spells too.
If you're not using conjure animals pretty much as much as you can you will fall behind.
I find hail of thorns, spike growth, and a few others do the trick as well.
Early on they are the "must pick" list for sure.
And when you run out of 3rd or higher spell slots was well lol
Yes. But even later. 3rd level a slot and higher hail of thorns in the right moment does devastating damage, even non-hunters.
Swift quiver, conjure volley, steel wind strike, summon elemental, summon beast, summon fey, and even absorb elements and ensnaring strike all increase the ranger’s damage output and tactical options considerably. Add all of that to their subclass damage, and they are right there with the others.