I feel that in this kind of situation, the DM could use a different perspective. The Hunter Ranger can and should still roll to gain this knowledge, but a roll definitionally risks a chance of failure. Hunter's Sense, meanwhile, guarantees the information with no roll required.
This was an issue in older editions. DMs couldn’t or wouldn’t keep up with all of the new books for rules as they came out. Spells, feats, classes, subclasses, and more and more and more. The game is the core three books. The end. The basic rules offer a much easier onboarding process, both financially and mechanically.
The fact of the matter is, there will always be people, perhaps the majority of people, that want as much as can be offered, and their thirst for such things, bigger, better, and newer, is unquenchable. As a DM the interest and headspace had a limit, and a line eventually has to be drawn in the sand. Otherwise players, like children, will keep pushing and pushing the boundaries of what they can get. UA, home brew, to infinity and beyond.
I feel that in this kind of situation, the DM could use a different perspective. The Hunter Ranger can and should still roll to gain this knowledge, but a roll is definitionally risks a chance of failure. Hunter's Sense, meanwhile, guarantees the information with no roll required.
Yep. Anyone can make an intelligence ability check. Some might have profit for a skill check. Some, like rangers, nigh have advantage in an ability or skill check. The monster slayer, and to a much lesser degree the battle master, have a strong mechanic that exceeds what a normal check gains and how.
The problems with comparing capstones to dips: 1) most classes are fairly front loaded with stand alones while tier 4 abilities are designed to feed off of earlier class/subclass abilities. The stand alones look better initially but may not actually play better while the tier 4s may not look strong until you dive into the numbers and synergies. 2) are you comparing the tier 4 single level ability to only the level 1 ability or talking about a 2-3 level dip vs a single level gain? 3) are the gains even really comparable? Take foe slayer and L1 rogue, foe slayer gives you a +3-5 to hit selected high AC capstone enemies, rogue gives you 1 extra skill, expertise in 2 skills, thieves tools and thieves can’t and sneak attack (1D6 once a turn) - none of that is going to help you hit that enemy, thieves tools and can’t? For a L19 ranger? Why?, the sneak damage is minimal, what your really getting with some usefulness is 1 new skill and expertise with 2 skills when combat wise what you may desperately need is that +3-5 to hit.
1) Correct, most classes are front loaded, and this is 100% the reason to compare. Do you get more out of a level 1 dip than taking level 20 in your class? For different characters of the same class this may vary. If you're simply interested in power level then you can also use this, I don't think there is anything off the top of my head that would entice you to give up the barbarian's capstone, for example (feel free to correct me). This is probably the easiest comparison to make, you have full knowledge of what you're losing (one level), and full knowledge of what you stand to gain (one level), there is no delaying your extra attack by one level, no potential multiclass crisis later, it is possibly the most informed levelling decision you'll ever be able to make.
2) Just one level, that's all you get, you don't get to take 19 levels in Ranger then 3 in Wizard.
3) They're as comparable as any other class ability combo is in the game, which ranges from hell no to absolutely. Are you going to gauge it correctly? Maybe, maybe not. Maybe you like expertise a lot, and wanted to round out your character with an extra skill, and maybe that little bit of combat efficiency matters not a whit to you. You decide.
TL;DR: It is a more informed comparison than capstone to capstone because it is a decision (provided anyone ever hits level 20) that you could actually make.
I’ll come back to #1at the end, 2) good I have all too often here seen folks start comparing the capstone to more than a one level dip as if they could rewrite the character to suit themselves. 3) fair enough it is in the end a personal choice but there is also some objective reality involved so …. 1) in my next post which will be while I’ll actually look at the L1 abilities of the other classes compared to the ranger capstone - it will take a while so stay tuned.
ranger has been ahead of the damage curve for most of the first 2-3 tiers
narrative build reasons
most games never actually play level 20
don't forget about multiclassing requirements. at the very least charisma is out (as a general rule). but depending on your build intelligence or wisdom or strength could also be too low to multiclass several options.
and lets not forget about other optional rules. Feats or flanking being turned off drastically increase the value of The value of The + to hit. I know lots of builds that rely on elven accuracy or lucky.
Ranger 20: wisdom bonus to hit (or damage) against favored opponents. PHB favored enemies where you should have at least 2 of the big 3 (dragons, fiends, aberrations) or Tasha’s favored foe where you have 6 possible per long rest so you should be good for what ever it is. Typical AC between 19 and 30, typical CR 20+ standard to hit at L20 = 6+5+3 (PB+D/SB+magic weapon bonus) = +14 so you hit AC24 half the time. The capstone shifts that to hitting AC 27-29 half the time. You also get your second L5 spell slot.
Barbarian: rage and unarmored defense: unarmored defense is great at L1, but at 19/20 when your wearing +2/+3 half plate possibly with a +2/3 shield it’s useless,. Rage doesn’t help you hit the foes but the resistance does make you last longer so you just might hit often enough to take them down and walk away. On the other hand tha +15-25% better hit rate will take them down 15-25% faster so they hit you 15-25% less.
Bard: spellcasting and inspiration: your spell slots dont change - you still get your second L5 spell slot but you do get 2 cantrips and 4 level 1 spells known so some benefit - I suppose you could take the true strike cantrip to get advantage on your next round attacks which would help. And you get 1-5 bardic inspiration dice (D6) that can help others hit or save but not you.so useful to the party but not much to you personally.
Cleric: spellcasting & Divine Domain Spells: 3 cantrips and 4-6 L1 spells prepared + your 2 L1 domain spells, again useful to the party, bless will certainly help you and give yourself and 2 others a +1-4 to hit as long as you hold concentration which is almost as good as foe slayer.
Druid: Druidic and spell casting: I don’t know about your table but I’ve seldom seen Druidic used at mine so it’s pretty useless unless you have 2 druids in the party talking privately. spellcasting as a full caster gets you the 2nd L5 spell slot you would get anyway, 2 cantrips and 4-6 prepped L1 Druid spells. Faerie Fire and Thunderwave are the Two best you don’t have access to as a ranger. None are going to help you hit but several are useful outside of combat.
Fighter: Fighting style and second wind: second wind let’s you recover 2-11 HP which might keep you up one round longer but nothing more. Fighting style might be helpful but the only 2 that really make sense at this point are archery or defense and only archery (which you probably already have) actually helps you hit high AC foes (with missile weapons) and it boy gives a +2 not a +3-5.
Monk: unarmored defense and martial arts: we already covered how useless unarmored defense is to a L19/20 ranger in barbarian, and martial arts is a D4 so any weapons your using are doing better already.
Paladin: heavy armor, Divine Sense & Laying on of Hands: heavy armor is nice but now you have to find magic armor as good or better than what you already have or it’s useless. Divine sense is a short range limited primeval Awareness - nice but no great shacks, Laying on of hands is a whopping 5 HP. The armor is the best thing and it’s probably no better than what you already have.
Rogue - already covered best thing here is 2 expertises and another skill.
sorceror: spellcasting and sorcerous origin: 4 cantrips and 2 level 1 spells known + 2nd L5 slot. Useful, especially.the cantrips but nothing great. Origin features: draconic: +1HP, armor less AC of 13+DB, expertise on charisma checks dealing with dragons - the last is the biggest, bigger if the capstone involves dragons. Wild Magic: surge and advantage on 1 attack/long rest - have fun with the surge table Divine soul: select spells from clerical or sorceror lists + 1spell from alignment table. Favored - add 2-8 to one failed save or attack roll/ rest. Spells are nice and the bonus is nice but it’s once/rest only. Shadow Magic: darkvision 120’ and a charisma save (5+damage) to drop to 1HP instead of 0 once per long rest. Storm Magic: Primordial language and a bonus action use to fly 10’ w/o OAs. Aberrant Mind: 3 psionics spells and telepathy Clockwork Magic: 2 extra spells + restore balance ( 6 times/long rest block advantage/ disadvantage within 60’ )
some are more useful than others but only clockwork magic is close to being as good/better than foe slayer in my opinion.
Warlock: pact magic and patron benefits: pact magic gives you 2 cantrips and 2 L1 spells and spell slots but doesn’t stack with the ranger spellcasting so you never get the 2nd L5 spell slot. Patron L1 benefits: Fey: Faerie fire and Sleep spells + Fey presence - Wis save vs warlock DC or be charmed/frightened. Fiend: Burning Hands& Command spells + Dark one’s blessing (1-4 temp HP if you kill a foe) Old One: Dissonant Whispers and Tasha’s Laugh spells known + Telepathy Celestial: light and sacred flame cantrips+ Expanded spell list + 2D6 healing within 60’ / long rest Hexblade: expanded spell list + curse - +6 damage and expanded crit range (19/20) Fathomless: swim speed+ water breathing, expanded spell list, tentacle (10’) Genie: expanded spell list, vessel, extra damage. Again some are interesting or useful and one or two might help in capstone fights none are as useful as a 15-25% increase in Hit rate in the capstone battle.
Wizard: spells: 2nd L5 slot, 3 cantrips, 6 spells known, ritual spells all useful but none hugely so, arcane recovery - 1 L1 spellslot recovered each short rest.
Artificer: magical tinkering, spells: 2nd L5 slot, 3 cantrips (counting magical tinkering=prestidigitation) and a few L1 spells. Not useless but not super helpful either.
I don’t know about others but for me there is nothing her more useful to the L20 ranger than surviving their capstone adventure to retire to NPCHOOD by being able to hit the capstone foe and it’s well armored minions often enough to defeat them before they defeat/kill the ranger. The ONLY ability here that actually does that is Foe Slayer.
Nice, thanks for taking the time to write it all up. Goes to show that the ability is actually decent given the other choices available, and it synergises well with the Ranger (surprise!).
A few thoughts.
If you were an archer, but didn't have archery (why?) then the fighting style +2 always on to hit would possibly be a better choice than the sometimes +3-5. If you had low wisdom then yes, easy choice, but it is a lot of ifs.
Cleric is a super strong contender, also getting bonus proficiencies, so pretty neat.
Forgot about clockwork soul sorcerer, is surprisingly neat.
I'd say I'd lean towards rogue or cleric for a bit more utility, as I'm not overly excited by combat potential, but Foe Slayer is an equally valid choice. It would really depend on my character concept though, and if I've stuck to ranger for 19 levels maybe I'd just want to hit 20.
Now you need to compare all capstones to all level 1 dips for the true experience. :P
I think that second 5th level spell slot is a real game changer. Makes ranger 20 worth it almost alone (for me anyway) and puts druid and cleric way above any other class choice (sorry rogue).
A second swift quiver or upcast conjure animals (double the critters) is tough to beat.
Bless > Foe Slayer and the +WIS to hit once per turn IMO.
Bless helps not only you to hit but to two others and gives them a d4 to saves as well. Its a hugely impactful spell that is often undervalued for what it provides. The fact you can upcast it with your ranger slots makes it a valuable add in its own right. Also healing word can literally be a life saver to bring back up someone so they can get a turn they otherwise wouldn't.
The additional 5th level slot is a big deal though and would honestly be my only hesitation...it really depends on if you think that 5th level slot is going to be a big enough deal to beat out what you get from another class.
Also you can get Bless from a feat now so its not as big a deal as it once was if your DM goes with Tasha's feats.
All in all Cleric dips are extremely valuable though especially with the right domain and CD.
Peace domain can use Emboldening Bond and get another d4 to an attack or save per round and give the same to 6 more creatures.
That means with a cleric dip you can give 2d4 to attacks/saves 6 times a day which is massive. Its basically like everyone getting Foe Slayer except better as it extends to saves as well.
I’m not sure bless is the optimal use of a ranger’s concentration at level 20. Maybe situationally useful. But considering bless is a level 1 spell like 5 classes have access to…
I’m not sure bless is the optimal use of a ranger’s concentration at level 20. Maybe situationally useful. But considering bless is a level 1 spell like 5 classes have access to…
Besides, add bless, foe slayer, and swift quiver.
With Tashas options you have to use for Slayer, a concentration ability, to get foe Slayer already. So the concentration point is moot here.
And the PHB version you only get it on your Favored Enemy. So limited.
Bless is universal, adds saves to the equation, and is always useful even if you burned your high level slots already.
Foe Slayer is about worth a 1st level spell unfortunately
I understand how it feels that way to you, but that just isn’t the case, mathematically speaking. Foe slayer seems situational, and it is, but you would not have foes you aren’t facing by level 20.
You are talking about giving something up that costs nothing and is mathematically potent for something that can be done by a level 1 NPC hireling or a 50 gp spell scroll.
If your going to concentrate on a spell, concentrate on a 3rd level conjure animals spell with animals that are taking the help action. That way you are adding advantage to a couple of attacks (maybe one of your attacks isn’t as strong ad an attack of someone else in the party at this level) and soaking a few enemy attacks as well.
I understand how it feels that way to you, but that just isn’t the case, mathematically speaking. Foe slayer seems situational, and it is, but you would not have foes you aren’t facing by level 20.
You are talking about giving something up that costs nothing and is mathematically potent for something that can be done by a level 1 NPC hireling or a 50 gp spell scroll.
You do not get Foe Slayer until 20th level.
You would get the benefits of Bless at 19th level so a level early and it gives not only you a +2.5 on average to all attacks and saves but two other people as well (assuming you only use a first level slot)
A +5 for one attack and one d8 of damage per round <<<<<<<<<+2.5 for ALL attacks of 3 creatures.
That is even before 3 creatures also get a +2.5 for saves.
That is the simple math part of it for sure.....the DPR increase for the other creatures more than makes up for the loss of +2.5 on one attack and then some.
And as stated both features require your concentration if you are using Tasha's optional rules as Favored Foe requires concentration anyway. The only benefit of Favored Foe is that you can use it on a hit instead of using an action to cast it. That is a fair point sure but honestly giving 2 other creatures +2.5 on their attacks is still more beneficial.
Heck even the +2.5 for your other friends is generally better than the extra attack from Swift Quiver as Crossbow expert is just a better option for rangers 99% of the time and you are only forgoing one attack to increase the output of potentially several others.
This is ESPECIALLY true if you have a class with more attacks like a monk or fighter.
If you are in caster heavy group then sure I could see Foe being better potentially as you will likely have someone else who can cast Bless...but thats not a given seeing as how only Clerics/Paladins get it intrinsically.
Overall its definately weighted towards the dip IMO as you get lot more than just Bless with the dip...you get healing word and several other great cleric spells. Guidance for any out of combat stuff and depending on the Domain an awesome domain CD.
The aforementioned Peace Cleric dip would basically give you and up to 6 other creatures Foe Slayer anyway as it stacks with Bless so they would get 2d4 or +5 to an attack on any creature anyway. This already makes Foe Slayer worse in trade as its only you and in this case you could make 6 creatures get the exact same benefit except better because they can choose to use that +5 on a save instead!
Its uses go up with Proficiency Bonus too so you get 6 uses at 20th level which is crazy good.
If your going to concentrate on a spell, concentrate on a 3rd level conjure animals spell with animals that are taking the help action. That way you are adding advantage to a couple of attacks (maybe one of your attacks isn’t as strong ad an attack of someone else in the party at this level) and soaking a few enemy attacks as well.
We are comparing the dip to the 20th level feature and not moving the goal posts here....
You can do this with either build so its a moot point.
I feel that in this kind of situation, the DM could use a different perspective. The Hunter Ranger can and should still roll to gain this knowledge, but a roll definitionally risks a chance of failure. Hunter's Sense, meanwhile, guarantees the information with no roll required.
This was an issue in older editions. DMs couldn’t or wouldn’t keep up with all of the new books for rules as they came out. Spells, feats, classes, subclasses, and more and more and more. The game is the core three books. The end. The basic rules offer a much easier onboarding process, both financially and mechanically.
The fact of the matter is, there will always be people, perhaps the majority of people, that want as much as can be offered, and their thirst for such things, bigger, better, and newer, is unquenchable. As a DM the interest and headspace had a limit, and a line eventually has to be drawn in the sand. Otherwise players, like children, will keep pushing and pushing the boundaries of what they can get. UA, home brew, to infinity and beyond.
Yep. Anyone can make an intelligence ability check. Some might have profit for a skill check. Some, like rangers, nigh have advantage in an ability or skill check. The monster slayer, and to a much lesser degree the battle master, have a strong mechanic that exceeds what a normal check gains and how.
1) Correct, most classes are front loaded, and this is 100% the reason to compare. Do you get more out of a level 1 dip than taking level 20 in your class? For different characters of the same class this may vary. If you're simply interested in power level then you can also use this, I don't think there is anything off the top of my head that would entice you to give up the barbarian's capstone, for example (feel free to correct me). This is probably the easiest comparison to make, you have full knowledge of what you're losing (one level), and full knowledge of what you stand to gain (one level), there is no delaying your extra attack by one level, no potential multiclass crisis later, it is possibly the most informed levelling decision you'll ever be able to make.
2) Just one level, that's all you get, you don't get to take 19 levels in Ranger then 3 in Wizard.
3) They're as comparable as any other class ability combo is in the game, which ranges from hell no to absolutely. Are you going to gauge it correctly? Maybe, maybe not. Maybe you like expertise a lot, and wanted to round out your character with an extra skill, and maybe that little bit of combat efficiency matters not a whit to you. You decide.
TL;DR: It is a more informed comparison than capstone to capstone because it is a decision (provided anyone ever hits level 20) that you could actually make.
I’ll come back to #1at the end,
2) good I have all too often here seen folks start comparing the capstone to more than a one level dip as if they could rewrite the character to suit themselves.
3) fair enough it is in the end a personal choice but there is also some objective reality involved so ….
1) in my next post which will be while I’ll actually look at the L1 abilities of the other classes compared to the ranger capstone - it will take a while so stay tuned.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
since we are ignoring the following:
don't forget about multiclassing requirements. at the very least charisma is out (as a general rule). but depending on your build intelligence or wisdom or strength could also be too low to multiclass several options.
and lets not forget about other optional rules. Feats or flanking being turned off drastically increase the value of The value of The + to hit. I know lots of builds that rely on elven accuracy or lucky.
Ranger 20: wisdom bonus to hit (or damage) against favored opponents. PHB favored enemies where you should have at least 2 of the big 3 (dragons, fiends, aberrations) or Tasha’s favored foe where you have 6 possible per long rest so you should be good for what ever it is. Typical AC between 19 and 30, typical CR 20+ standard to hit at L20 = 6+5+3 (PB+D/SB+magic weapon bonus) = +14 so you hit AC24 half the time. The capstone shifts that to hitting AC 27-29 half the time. You also get your second L5 spell slot.
Barbarian: rage and unarmored defense: unarmored defense is great at L1, but at 19/20 when your wearing +2/+3 half plate possibly with a +2/3 shield it’s useless,. Rage doesn’t help you hit the foes but the resistance does make you last longer so you just might hit often enough to take them down and walk away. On the other hand tha +15-25% better hit rate will take them down 15-25% faster so they hit you 15-25% less.
Bard: spellcasting and inspiration: your spell slots dont change - you still get your second L5 spell slot but you do get 2 cantrips and 4 level 1 spells known so some benefit - I suppose you could take the true strike cantrip to get advantage on your next round attacks which would help. And you get 1-5 bardic inspiration dice (D6) that can help others hit or save but not you.so useful to the party but not much to you personally.
Cleric: spellcasting & Divine Domain Spells: 3 cantrips and 4-6 L1 spells prepared + your 2 L1 domain spells, again useful to the party, bless will certainly help you and give yourself and 2 others a +1-4 to hit as long as you hold concentration which is almost as good as foe slayer.
Druid: Druidic and spell casting: I don’t know about your table but I’ve seldom seen Druidic used at mine so it’s pretty useless unless you have 2 druids in the party talking privately. spellcasting as a full caster gets you the 2nd L5 spell slot you would get anyway, 2 cantrips and 4-6 prepped L1 Druid spells. Faerie Fire and Thunderwave are the Two best you don’t have access to as a ranger. None are going to help you hit but several are useful outside of combat.
Fighter: Fighting style and second wind: second wind let’s you recover 2-11 HP which might keep you up one round longer but nothing more. Fighting style might be helpful but the only 2 that really make sense at this point are archery or defense and only archery (which you probably already have) actually helps you hit high AC foes (with missile weapons) and it boy gives a +2 not a +3-5.
Monk: unarmored defense and martial arts: we already covered how useless unarmored defense is to a L19/20 ranger in barbarian, and martial arts is a D4 so any weapons your using are doing better already.
Paladin: heavy armor, Divine Sense & Laying on of Hands: heavy armor is nice but now you have to find magic armor as good or better than what you already have or it’s useless. Divine sense is a short range limited primeval Awareness - nice but no great shacks, Laying on of hands is a whopping 5 HP. The armor is the best thing and it’s probably no better than what you already have.
Rogue - already covered best thing here is 2 expertises and another skill.
sorceror: spellcasting and sorcerous origin: 4 cantrips and 2 level 1 spells known + 2nd L5 slot. Useful, especially.the cantrips but nothing great. Origin features:
draconic: +1HP, armor less AC of 13+DB, expertise on charisma checks dealing with dragons - the last is the biggest, bigger if the capstone involves dragons.
Wild Magic: surge and advantage on 1 attack/long rest - have fun with the surge table
Divine soul: select spells from clerical or sorceror lists + 1spell from alignment table. Favored - add 2-8 to one failed save or attack roll/ rest. Spells are nice and the bonus is nice but it’s once/rest only.
Shadow Magic: darkvision 120’ and a charisma save (5+damage) to drop to 1HP instead of 0 once per long rest.
Storm Magic: Primordial language and a bonus action use to fly 10’ w/o OAs.
Aberrant Mind: 3 psionics spells and telepathy
Clockwork Magic: 2 extra spells + restore balance ( 6 times/long rest block advantage/ disadvantage within 60’ )
some are more useful than others but only clockwork magic is close to being as good/better than foe slayer in my opinion.
Warlock: pact magic and patron benefits: pact magic gives you 2 cantrips and 2 L1 spells and spell slots but doesn’t stack with the ranger spellcasting so you never get the 2nd L5 spell slot. Patron L1 benefits:
Fey: Faerie fire and Sleep spells + Fey presence - Wis save vs warlock DC or be charmed/frightened.
Fiend: Burning Hands& Command spells + Dark one’s blessing (1-4 temp HP if you kill a foe)
Old One: Dissonant Whispers and Tasha’s Laugh spells known + Telepathy
Celestial: light and sacred flame cantrips+ Expanded spell list + 2D6 healing within 60’ / long rest
Hexblade: expanded spell list + curse - +6 damage and expanded crit range (19/20)
Fathomless: swim speed+ water breathing, expanded spell list, tentacle (10’)
Genie: expanded spell list, vessel, extra damage.
Again some are interesting or useful and one or two might help in capstone fights none are as useful as a 15-25% increase in Hit rate in the capstone battle.
Wizard: spells: 2nd L5 slot, 3 cantrips, 6 spells known, ritual spells all useful but none hugely so, arcane recovery - 1 L1 spellslot recovered each short rest.
Artificer: magical tinkering, spells: 2nd L5 slot, 3 cantrips (counting magical tinkering=prestidigitation) and a few L1 spells. Not useless but not super helpful either.
I don’t know about others but for me there is nothing her more useful to the L20 ranger than surviving their capstone adventure to retire to NPCHOOD by being able to hit the capstone foe and it’s well armored minions often enough to defeat them before they defeat/kill the ranger. The ONLY ability here that actually does that is Foe Slayer.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Nice, thanks for taking the time to write it all up. Goes to show that the ability is actually decent given the other choices available, and it synergises well with the Ranger (surprise!).
A few thoughts.
If you were an archer, but didn't have archery (why?) then the fighting style +2 always on to hit would possibly be a better choice than the sometimes +3-5. If you had low wisdom then yes, easy choice, but it is a lot of ifs.
Cleric is a super strong contender, also getting bonus proficiencies, so pretty neat.
Forgot about clockwork soul sorcerer, is surprisingly neat.
I'd say I'd lean towards rogue or cleric for a bit more utility, as I'm not overly excited by combat potential, but Foe Slayer is an equally valid choice. It would really depend on my character concept though, and if I've stuck to ranger for 19 levels maybe I'd just want to hit 20.
Now you need to compare all capstones to all level 1 dips for the true experience. :P
Not happening
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
This is fair. :D
I think that second 5th level spell slot is a real game changer. Makes ranger 20 worth it almost alone (for me anyway) and puts druid and cleric way above any other class choice (sorry rogue).
A second swift quiver or upcast conjure animals (double the critters) is tough to beat.
Bless > Foe Slayer and the +WIS to hit once per turn IMO.
Bless helps not only you to hit but to two others and gives them a d4 to saves as well. Its a hugely impactful spell that is often undervalued for what it provides. The fact you can upcast it with your ranger slots makes it a valuable add in its own right. Also healing word can literally be a life saver to bring back up someone so they can get a turn they otherwise wouldn't.
The additional 5th level slot is a big deal though and would honestly be my only hesitation...it really depends on if you think that 5th level slot is going to be a big enough deal to beat out what you get from another class.
Also you can get Bless from a feat now so its not as big a deal as it once was if your DM goes with Tasha's feats.
All in all Cleric dips are extremely valuable though especially with the right domain and CD.
Peace domain can use Emboldening Bond and get another d4 to an attack or save per round and give the same to 6 more creatures.
That means with a cleric dip you can give 2d4 to attacks/saves 6 times a day which is massive. Its basically like everyone getting Foe Slayer except better as it extends to saves as well.
I’m not sure bless is the optimal use of a ranger’s concentration at level 20. Maybe situationally useful. But considering bless is a level 1 spell like 5 classes have access to…
Besides, add bless, foe slayer, and swift quiver.
With Tashas options you have to use for Slayer, a concentration ability, to get foe Slayer already. So the concentration point is moot here.
And the PHB version you only get it on your Favored Enemy. So limited.
Bless is universal, adds saves to the equation, and is always useful even if you burned your high level slots already.
Foe Slayer is about worth a 1st level spell unfortunately
I understand how it feels that way to you, but that just isn’t the case, mathematically speaking. Foe slayer seems situational, and it is, but you would not have foes you aren’t facing by level 20.
You are talking about giving something up that costs nothing and is mathematically potent for something that can be done by a level 1 NPC hireling or a 50 gp spell scroll.
If your going to concentrate on a spell, concentrate on a 3rd level conjure animals spell with animals that are taking the help action. That way you are adding advantage to a couple of attacks (maybe one of your attacks isn’t as strong ad an attack of someone else in the party at this level) and soaking a few enemy attacks as well.
You do not get Foe Slayer until 20th level.
You would get the benefits of Bless at 19th level so a level early and it gives not only you a +2.5 on average to all attacks and saves but two other people as well (assuming you only use a first level slot)
A +5 for one attack and one d8 of damage per round <<<<<<<<<+2.5 for ALL attacks of 3 creatures.
That is even before 3 creatures also get a +2.5 for saves.
That is the simple math part of it for sure.....the DPR increase for the other creatures more than makes up for the loss of +2.5 on one attack and then some.
And as stated both features require your concentration if you are using Tasha's optional rules as Favored Foe requires concentration anyway. The only benefit of Favored Foe is that you can use it on a hit instead of using an action to cast it. That is a fair point sure but honestly giving 2 other creatures +2.5 on their attacks is still more beneficial.
Heck even the +2.5 for your other friends is generally better than the extra attack from Swift Quiver as Crossbow expert is just a better option for rangers 99% of the time and you are only forgoing one attack to increase the output of potentially several others.
This is ESPECIALLY true if you have a class with more attacks like a monk or fighter.
If you are in caster heavy group then sure I could see Foe being better potentially as you will likely have someone else who can cast Bless...but thats not a given seeing as how only Clerics/Paladins get it intrinsically.
Overall its definately weighted towards the dip IMO as you get lot more than just Bless with the dip...you get healing word and several other great cleric spells. Guidance for any out of combat stuff and depending on the Domain an awesome domain CD.
The aforementioned Peace Cleric dip would basically give you and up to 6 other creatures Foe Slayer anyway as it stacks with Bless so they would get 2d4 or +5 to an attack on any creature anyway. This already makes Foe Slayer worse in trade as its only you and in this case you could make 6 creatures get the exact same benefit except better because they can choose to use that +5 on a save instead!
Its uses go up with Proficiency Bonus too so you get 6 uses at 20th level which is crazy good.
We are comparing the dip to the 20th level feature and not moving the goal posts here....
You can do this with either build so its a moot point.
It’s not a moot point because what you are suggesting is better than the level 20 ability is way outclassed by something the class already has.
Its not though....its the exact same or worse if you go Peace Cleric.