First of all, please let me say that these abilities, as I'm sure you are aware already, are hotly debated and valued/undervalued by many voices online. Many of the things in this game are vague to say the least, and the ranger happens to be the class that is the most vague. That is likely, I believe, because the ranger focuses quite a bit on something in the game that is not very formulaic or flushed out. The rules are there, but they leave a lot open to DM, table, and group use and interpretation. The other thing is many people feel/think these abilities are terrible or useless, and at the same time use an interpretation of the abilities that are the most restrictive and harsh, so I tend to think I lot of folks that have bad opinions of these abilities create a lot of their own problems. Meaning, if the rule is unclear to the point of being debated at all, and you feel the rule is dumb or weak, then perhaps your reading of the rule is not correct, but that is just me. The final issue is the PHB ranger class, its abilities, and how/if they are used is very much in the hands of the DM, which a lot of folks DO NOT LIKE. I have a warped view of this perhaps, because I have always had great use and fun as a ranger player and DM with a ranger in the party, so that is needed to be made clear up front.
Hide in Plain Sight.
Starting at 10th level, you can spend 1 minute creating camouflage for yourself. You must have access to fresh mud, dirt, plants, soot, and other naturally occurring materials with which to create your camouflage.
Once you are camouflaged in this way, you can try to hide by pressing yourself up against a solid surface, such as a tree or wall, that is at least as tall and wide as you are. You gain a +10 bonus to Dexterity (Stealth) checks as long as you remain there without moving or taking actions. Once you move or take an action or a reaction, you must camouflage yourself again to gain this benefit.
This ability to me is really great. You asked that I make a case for it against Nature's Veil. I'll say a few things. 1. Nature's Veil is the option you want to go with if you are going for pure combat focus. It can't be beat for that focus. Being able to blink invisible for a couple of seconds is amazing for combat. If I was playing Adventurers League or at a table that sort of played a game that just jumped from scene to scene with zero world interaction, then this is the option to go with. However, the way I read, interpret, and use Hide in Plain Sight is a setup and use later ability that is quite powerful. 2. Hide in Plain Sight is not invisible. It is hidden, incredibly so. So right out of the gate any time a party member needs to be still and hidden this can not be beat. Keeping watch for your shift over night? Hide in Plain Sight. Setting an ambush (and people love using this example)? HiPS. Running away or leading enemies away and need to disappear? HiPS. I read this as a two part ability where you spend a minute, so while walking, resting, or waiting while someone else ritual casts a spell, and put on the makeup. Then you have this one-off ability (that can later be done as a bonus action) to press up against something or lay down and be hidden to a level of can not be found. I also use this ability as the two racial hide abilities, where they circumvent the normal rules for line of sight and hiding. 3. So using that reading you can, in combat, lean up against a wall or lay down and disappear. 4. In a world where the PCs interact, travel, explore, and exist, HiPS is very useful. IN a world where combat is the focus, spotlight, and source of fun, NV is going to be the go to choice.
If you try to read this as bumper bowling RAW then you will have a bad day. Like the moving bit, folks say "What about breathing and blinking?!", or "You have to have ALL of that stuff to make your camouflage because it says AND in the RAW!!!", or "You have to hide right away because it is all one ability even though it is two completely separate paragraphs!!!" These are the kinds of responses that people will say while saying the ability is dumb or useless. If those people, DDAL, or their DM is that kind of person with that kind of mindset, then the ranger class in general is probably not for them, let alone travel, exploration, speaking with animals, and anything else that isn't hitting something with a crossbow, glaive, or fireball.
Read the ability. If you don't like it, read it again.
A couple of comments from the peanut gallery 😁 1) It looks to me like WOtC actually tries fairly hard for a balance of sorts - no one race screams RANGER (or monk/barbarian/etc) but several are probably somewhat better than others for any given class. So you are not going to get a “BEST RACE FOR X” agreement across the board ( or for that matter a “worst race for”). 2) Hide in plain sight is actually a better ability than we typically give it credit for. Yes you have to spend a minute getting “dressed up” but once that is done you can hide with that +10. Notice the wording - once done NOT immediately after doing so. Think of the ranger as a sniper or a SEAL team member (etc) getting made up before going out on a mission, they spend considerably more than 1 minute getting ghillie suits, cammoflage paints etc on and then - later in the mission - when they need to they hide quickly and easily. Sometimes we need to think about what is NOT said as much as what is said. The ranger could camo up as they start prepping for the day and then use HIPS as needed during the day. They don’t have to camo up right before they hide. 3) personally I don’t find the PHB ranger deeply flawed - I would like to see them get more favored enemies and terrains (+1 each at every 5th level) or able to switch them out after experience with a new one (switch at next level) but I can live with them as they are and the DMs I’m playing with allow Tasha’s so I can switch things out when I want as well.
You and I read, interpret, and use hide in plain sight in exactly the same way! It is a very fun and effective ability when used in the way it is written.
In that case perhaps either of you can help me, by explaining a rational argument in favour of the PHB Hide in Plain Sight ability over TCE's Nature's Veil (other than for pure thrill of getting to don a ghillie suit) ? That's not meant as a challenge, rather I'm genuinely curious how fans of the PHB ranger see things relative to TCE options. While you are at it I would also be interested to hear how you see Primeval Awareness working in PHB (which to my reading and many others mysteriously nerfs your ability to use it on Favored Enemies). Thank you both for any insights on this.
Primeval Awareness.
Beginning at 3rd level, you can use your action and expend one ranger spell slot to focus your awareness on the region around you. For 1 minute per level of the spell slot you expend, you can sense whether the following types of creatures are present within 1 mile of you (or within up to 6 miles if you are in your favored terrain): aberrations, celestials, dragons, elementals, fey, fiends, and undead. This feature doesn’t reveal the creatures’ location or number.
I really love this ability. Again, just like many things in the game that aren't well defined, like hide in plain sight, enchantment magic, illusion magic, divination magic, equipment use, toll use, travel, exploration, and more, this ability will NOT be of any use to you as a player. The variant offers spells that, in my view, are about as useless as the original ability if your DM does not think in a way that makes anything that isn't A + B = C. Like "Hit with sword. Roll 1d8." Those variant spells are world interaction spells. Animals, plants, nature. I am finding DMs that don't know how or don't want to make use of primeval awareness are the same kind of DMs that will not or don't know how to use the primal awareness spells either.
Let's leave out the expanded range of primeval awareness in your favored terrain for just a moment. For the cost of a level 1 spell slot this ability gives you a "ye or no" answer for each of the creature types listed. Not if any of them are in the range, but yes or no for each separate creature type. Like "Undead? Yes. Dragons? No Monstrosities? Yes." etc. Basically all of the "non natural world" type of things. So when searching for something, hunting or whatever. Maybe seeking out a creature.Perhaps right before going into a dungeon, lair, mountain, castle, or wherever, you crack this off and get an idea of what is around. One use right before a rest, short or long, gives valuable information. 1 mile seems like a lot to a lot of people, but it isn't really. In fact, considering you can travel 3 miles in one hour, it isn't far at all. The main thing with this spell, and this is where people get off target as far as I'm concerned, is the point of this ability isn't to tell you what is near and where, it's to tell you what isn't around. That is the point./ The ranger is the watcher of the lands they travel. They are on the lookout for unrest in the natural order of the natural world. A happy ranger is a ranger that cracks of primeval awareness and gets a "No." for each creature type. So if you are using this ability to hunt or track or whatever, that is fine and works, but the ability is meant to be used to confirm the lack of unnatural presence of creatures like the ones listed. If you are using PA to track or hunt, then it is a powerful tool when used with the ranger's other abilities and spells. Unlike, let's take the paladin, class abilities that are like little bit on their own that function within themself, the ranger abilities stack on top of one another and work in conjunction with one another, making the combined result greater then the sum of them separately. And this is where the extended range kicks in.
If you are in your favored terrain, the way I read it, two things happen. 1. You have an option now to choose a range for your PA sense as it says "up to". So right there the favored terrain location offers the ranger more flexibility, not less. A quick word search of the PHB for the words "up to" will give you an idea of how these words are used in the game. You can pick a range of 1 mile, 2.3 miles. or 6 miles, depending on what you want/need to do or find out. This also makes pinging this ability a couple of times in conjunction with being able to control the range makes for a more powerful reading. 2. When you are in your favored terrain and have the option of up to a huge 6 mile range for this ability, you are now, well, in your favored terrain! So all of the stuff that works while in your favored terrain is "on". All of this...
When you make an Intelligence or Wisdom check related to your favored terrain, your proficiency bonus is doubled if you are using a skill that you’re proficient in.
While traveling for an hour or more in your favored terrain, you gain the following benefits:
Difficult terrain doesn’t slow your group’s travel.
Your group can’t become lost except by magical means.
Even when you are engaged in another activity while traveling (such as foraging, navigating, or tracking), you remain alert to danger.
If you are traveling alone, you can move stealthily at a normal pace.
When you forage, you find twice as much food as you normally would.
While tracking other creatures, you also learn their exact number, their sizes, and how long ago they passed through the area.
...so all of your knowledge skills, information gathering skills, travel pace, stealth ability, ability to stay perceptive, survival abilities, and most of all TRACKING abilities, are all functioning at the best in the game. If you happen to cross pollinate all of this with your favored enemy(ies) you are now adding advantage to track and find creatures as well. So the abilities really pile on top of one another very quickly. When you add spells and subclass abilities to these situations, a ranger can really be large and in charge of the world around them.
Primeval awareness is kind of a star wars ability for me. When someone says "I sense a disturbance in the force." I think of PA.
Even in a city this ability is great. 1 mile is not a large area for a city, or even some towns, and being able to know right now for a level 1 spell slot if something is in a city that isn't supposed to be there is powerful. It also has the benefit of being a possible plot hook tool for the DM. Does it tell you the address of the aberration, undead, or giant that is in the city? No. But as an action you can save the entire party (and maybe an hour of play time) eliminating the possibility of it even being the case.
All I can tell you for this ability is to think of it as what ISN'T there, not what IS and WHERE it is. People want this to be a thing, it isn't, and they are upset and think it's bad. Again, if your DM, your group, or your table (like DDAL) doesn't interact in the world, or travel, or explore, or solve mysteries, or much else other than talk to some quest giving NPCs and run into glories battle, then I imagine this isn't a spectacular ability for you to play. But if that is the case, ranger isn't the class for your table, Tasha's ranger is better at playing at a combat heavy or DDAL table, but even it is not your best option.
A lot comes from understanding how the world works as well. Say you are hunting a black dragon and dragons are one of your favored enemies and one of your favored terrains is forest. You know black dragons lair in swamps while at he moment you are up in hilly forests and it’s late afternoon. Do you want to camp now or proceed downhill till you have to camp because it’s dark? You still have all your spells so you go full force on PA - 6 mile radius ( your in forest your terrain) and you come up yes for dragons, no for everything else. Ok, dragon within 6 miles ( maybe, if you ask your DM pretty please he tells you it’s a black dragon). 2 nd try is set at 3 miles - no dragon - yeah the dragon is 3-6 miles away probably downhill in a swamp between this ridge line your on and the next. If you stop now you can probably get away with building a small cook fire before dark then snuffing it out at sunset after eating and pitch your tents under the trees and avoid being detected by the dragon while you sleep the night in reasonable safety. If the answer at 3 miles is yes then you may want to go for round 3 as well and check on 1 mile. If it is yes then you might as well see if you can pick up evidence of the dragon and it’s lair while it’s light you are probably too close to camp safely anyway. Or you might want to back track a mile or two and try again to see if it is now out of range and camp then. Working together using all 3 PH abilities linking them gives you much more power than thinking of them as separate and when the DM knows what they are doing with rangers they can be more useful than Tasha’s versions that don’t really have a synergy the way the PH abilities do. We talk a lot about combat abilities and skills that proc each other but seldom about non combat skills that proc each other. since the ranger is meant to be a loner first, party member second their skills and abilities HAVE TO proc each other since they can’t expect to have some one else doing stuff to help or play off of.
Half elf, high elf, drow, hill dwarf, yuan-tim mountain dwarf to name a few. I dont value wood elf's traits very highly. They're too situiationally useful. Certainly a strong race but not one I will look to very often.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Yes! It’s something I learned in photography class and poetry writing - you have to know the rules fairly well, but to create your best work you also have to know when to break or go beyond the rules because that very act forces your observer to dive deeper not the meaning behind your creation. In DnD we all know the rules moderately well so we have a language for communicating but we don’t always pay close attention in the moment we just do.
Half elf, high elf, drow, hill dwarf, yuan-tim mountain dwarf to name a few. I dont value wood elf's traits very highly. They're too situiationally useful. Certainly a strong race but not one I will look to very often.
That is really the point - no one race is so superior to the others for any class or subclass that is clearly “THE BEST” so you can play what ever you want and it will probably be pretty darn good, and even if it isn’t don’t we all know folks who aren’t the best at what they do but who thoroughly enjoy what they do and do it to the best of their ability despite that?
thanks for that link. watched it and really enjoyed it.
as a (short) reply to your (and Wi1dBi11's) earlier answers on Primeval Awareness and HiPS, thank you that's much appreciated and very interesting.
Look, I hear what you are saying and I get it. Truth be told I wish that the group I normally play with was more like yours and hence applied greater focus to the storytelling and specifically the exploration elements of the game. It is a real shame when the game simply bounces between one social interaction to another or one combat encounter to another. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate both of those elements a lot but I miss the aspect of wonder and exploration as do a lot of 5e players I think.
Personally I agree strongly with Matt Colville on the idea of rulings over rules. I wish most D&D 5e players / DMs felt the same but I'm not sure that is the reality. I often find myself arguing with others at my table who want to take a more 'originalist' attitude to the rules, assuming that it it is not specifically allowed then it must be banned. So you can see how if I have a DM who reads literally class features like PA or HiPS, it can be a little frustrating. I'm quite interested in EN Publishing's new take on Level Up 5e and I'm looking forward to trying out, for the reasons cited hear and loads more (it follows that I also would like more flexibility and texture in the game and sadly cannot rely on my table to generate this without some help lolz).
Yeah, there are 2 basic attitudes towards rules/laws etc: 1) Anything not specifically allowed is forbidden! 2) Anything not specifically forbidden is allowed. control freaks, and many DMs fall into this category ( tho not all by any means), fall into group 1, by and large I, and I suspect FRGG) fall into group 2. in the end if you enjoy the game with your group keep on, if not you have 3 choices: 1) show your DM that video and talk to him about opening the game up some. 2) start DMing yourself and run a more open game with lots of exploration and see if your group enjoys it. 3) find a new more open and enjoyable group.
thanks for that link. watched it and really enjoyed it.
as a (short) reply to your (and Wi1dBi11's) earlier answers on Primeval Awareness and HiPS, thank you that's much appreciated and very interesting.
Look, I hear what you are saying and I get it. Truth be told I wish that the group I normally play with was more like yours and hence applied greater focus to the storytelling and specifically the exploration elements of the game. It is a real shame when the game simply bounces between one social interaction to another or one combat encounter to another. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate both of those elements a lot but I miss the aspect of wonder and exploration as do a lot of 5e players I think.
Personally I agree strongly with Matt Colville on the idea of rulings over rules. I wish most D&D 5e players / DMs felt the same but I'm not sure that is the reality. I often find myself arguing with others at my table who want to take a more 'originalist' attitude to the rules, assuming that it it is not specifically allowed then it must be banned. So you can see how if I have a DM who reads literally class features like PA or HiPS, it can be a little frustrating. I'm quite interested in EN Publishing's new take on Level Up 5e and I'm looking forward to trying out, for the reasons cited hear and loads more (it follows that I also would like more flexibility and texture in the game and sadly cannot rely on my table to generate this without some help lolz).
Take good care and keep having fun.
Cheers
You bet!
I am under no delusion that many of the current player base (at least those vocal online) are playing a very different type of D&D these days. I think this will either pass in time or at least stabilize a bit as the player base gets used to the game state. We have a lot going on in D&D right now. Players who played 3.5 and/or 4E, players who play online (more so than ever), organized play only players (DDAL), players that are brand new to the game (or any TTRPG), and players that are starting the game, or picking it back up again, after being exposed to high production streamed/televised/broadcasted/podcasted live play D&D specifically designed as entertainment. As people explore the game, the rules, the world(s), and capability of the system, I think these other parts of the game will rise back into the mainstream. The journey is as much, if not more, exciting than the destination.
Travel, exploration, discovering, problem solving, and even just living/existing/creating in the game world, and by association rangers and any classes or subclasses that have any kind of focus on anything other than combat, kind of suffer from the "Free Parking" epidemic of the exploration pillar in D&D 5E right now. People don't use entire chunks of what the game is and state they think those parts of the game and the classes that use it are bad. Just like in Monopoly where people add money to the Free Parking space (not an actual rule of the game) and complain that it takes too long to play.
You are correct. I make a point to play with folks, at tables, in environments, that make use of a lot of the game that many people and tables to do, for whatever reason. Therefore, rangers and their abilities are used, fun, effective, and powerful in all of my experience. All except for my time with DDAL. Playing (as a player) in DDAL has had mixed results playing a ranger. It is just the nature of the beast. DDAL is basically one big house rule group with a new DM every week. Ranger thrive in a deep world existence, strong campaign theme, up front and ongoing narrative story progression, and DM collaboration. DDAL offers almost none of that by its very nature.
I think the Tasha's variants offer playability of a ranger for a good amount of players that can't or won't have a chance to play at a table, with a group, or in a game that allows the PHB ranger to do what it is literally designed to do. Rangers and other builds that focus on things other than just combat are mountain bikes at the Tour de France. Completely out of their element. But take the racing bikes to the woods and the same thing in reverse happens.
thanks for that link. watched it and really enjoyed it.
as a (short) reply to your (and Wi1dBi11's) earlier answers on Primeval Awareness and HiPS, thank you that's much appreciated and very interesting.
Look, I hear what you are saying and I get it. Truth be told I wish that the group I normally play with was more like yours and hence applied greater focus to the storytelling and specifically the exploration elements of the game. It is a real shame when the game simply bounces between one social interaction to another or one combat encounter to another. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate both of those elements a lot but I miss the aspect of wonder and exploration as do a lot of 5e players I think.
Personally I agree strongly with Matt Colville on the idea of rulings over rules. I wish most D&D 5e players / DMs felt the same but I'm not sure that is the reality. I often find myself arguing with others at my table who want to take a more 'originalist' attitude to the rules, assuming that it it is not specifically allowed then it must be banned. So you can see how if I have a DM who reads literally class features like PA or HiPS, it can be a little frustrating. I'm quite interested in EN Publishing's new take on Level Up 5e and I'm looking forward to trying out, for the reasons cited hear and loads more (it follows that I also would like more flexibility and texture in the game and sadly cannot rely on my table to generate this without some help lolz).
Take good care and keep having fun.
Cheers
You bet!
I am under no delusion that many of the current player base (at least those vocal online) are playing a very different type of D&D these days. I think this will either pass in time or at least stabilize a bit as the player base gets used to the game state. We have a lot going on in D&D right now. Players who played 3.5 and/or 4E, players who play online (more so than ever), organized play only players (DDAL), players that are brand new to the game (or any TTRPG), and players that are starting the game, or picking it back up again, after being exposed to high production streamed/televised/broadcasted/podcasted live play D&D specifically designed as entertainment. As people explore the game, the rules, the world(s), and capability of the system, I think these other parts of the game will rise back into the mainstream. The journey is as much, if not more, exciting than the destination.
Travel, exploration, discovering, problem solving, and even just living/existing/creating in the game world, and by association rangers and any classes or subclasses that have any kind of focus on anything other than combat, kind of suffer from the "Free Parking" epidemic of the exploration pillar in D&D 5E right now. People don't use entire chunks of what the game is and state they think those parts of the game and the classes that use it are bad. Just like in Monopoly where people add money to the Free Parking space (not an actual rule of the game) and complain that it takes too long to play.
You are correct. I make a point to play with folks, at tables, in environments, that make use of a lot of the game that many people and tables to do, for whatever reason. Therefore, rangers and their abilities are used, fun, effective, and powerful in all of my experience. All except for my time with DDAL. Playing (as a player) in DDAL has had mixed results playing a ranger. It is just the nature of the beast. DDAL is basically one big house rule group with a new DM every week. Ranger thrive in a deep world existence, strong campaign theme, up front and ongoing narrative story progression, and DM collaboration. DDAL offers almost none of that by its very nature.
I think the Tasha's variants offer playability of a ranger for a good amount of players that can't or won't have a chance to play at a table, with a group, or in a game that allows the PHB ranger to do what it is literally designed to do. Rangers and other builds that focus on things other than just combat are mountain bikes at the Tour de France. Completely out of their element. But take the racing bikes to the woods and the same thing in reverse happens.
All good points and very much agree. Well, if you are ever looking for an extra player at any online games you may be running do let me know! Sounds like your table is a good one! :-)
Well, there are a few of us from these forums that meet online about once or twice a month to play all ranger (multiclass typically allowed) one shots (usually 1-3 sessions) with rotating DMs. We are specifically comparing ranger abilities in game. Let me know if you have any interest. It’s all on discord.
That sounds very interesting, so yes please let me know. the only caveat is that I’m in Europe, so depending on the timing of your games I might or might not be available. I am normally in the UK (Phila +5) although will be in Greece until end of October which is +7. But by all means please let me know and I’ll do my best :-)
That sounds very interesting, so yes please let me know. the only caveat is that I’m in Europe, so depending on the timing of your games I might or might not be available. I am normally in the UK (Phila +5) although will be in Greece until end of October which is +7. But by all means please let me know and I’ll do my best :-)
Two of the group of 5 of us are from over your way. One is in Sweden and the other is also in the UK.
I don't know if this was brought up, but the whole hiding thing is far less valuable to a Ranger than it is to a Rogue. Rogues get to hide as a bonus action, whereas the Ranger would have to use its full action to hide. In that regard, it is pretty circumstantial.
DDAL and most DM's (though not all) will let you use the Tasha's rules for floating racial ASI's. Barring OP races like Yuan-ti that are literally the strongest for any class, I don't know if there's a single, inarguable best race for a ranger. Half-elves are always strong because they get 4 ASI points to spend, extra skill proficiencies, darkvision, advantage against charm, immunity to sleep spells, and they're thematic. Tabaxi are also thematic, they have a climbing speed, and their feline agility is insane mobility. Seldom are players moving on every turn, so as long as you stay put-- on your next turn you can move 60 feet as a normal movement!
The hiding is rather different for a ranger than a rogue but if the DM is actually doing outdoorsy stuff then it can be just as common and perhaps a bit more so as the ranger then not only has to hide themselves but frequently the entire party. It becomes the ranger’s job to keep the party safe and on track and the best way to stay safe is not to let anyone know your there. So things like staying below ridge lines, moving in streams, knowing how to build smokeless fires (and when to build them), how to disguise or eliminate tracks etc are all part of the ranger’s stealth tactics that should be in play but all to frequently are glossed over because the player and/or DM is unaware of them. Louis Lamour’s “The Last of the Breed” may be the best book for seeing this played out - it follows 2 modern day rangers (a part native American spy plane pilot shot down over Siberia and his Russian Yakut pursuer as the American attempts to live and survive in Siberia while making his way to the Bering Strait and escaping back to the US. It’s basically 1 ranger chasing the other through primeval forests for over 2 years of story time.
The hiding is rather different for a ranger than a rogue but if the DM is actually doing outdoorsy stuff then it can be just as common and perhaps a bit more so as the ranger then not only has to hide themselves but frequently the entire party. It becomes the ranger’s job to keep the party safe and on track and the best way to stay safe is not to let anyone know your there. So things like staying below ridge lines, moving in streams, knowing how to build smokeless fires (and when to build them), how to disguise or eliminate tracks etc are all part of the ranger’s stealth tactics that should be in play but all to frequently are glossed over because the player and/or DM is unaware of them. Louis Lamour’s “The Last of the Breed” may be the best book for seeing this played out - it follows 2 modern day rangers (a part native American spy plane pilot shot down over Siberia and his Russian Yakut pursuer as the American attempts to live and survive in Siberia while making his way to the Bering Strait and escaping back to the US. It’s basically 1 ranger chasing the other through primeval forests for over 2 years of story time.
Yes!
Perhaps the biggest strength of the ranger (in general) in the wilderness they are familiar with is the entire party becomes better, safer, faster, and more efficient.
If you start exploring with using ability checks with different skill proficiencies you could get into things like wisdom/intelligence stealth checks to stay as out of sight as possible when traveling through the wilderness.
While we often look to characters like Aragorn as the type for rangers in many ways he is more a fighter than a ranger. Similarly most mideveal figures are fighters primarily. The major exception is Robinhood but we think of him as a rogue more than a ranger too often despite him being probably the quintessential mideveal ranger. Similarly modern groups like the SEALS/Green Berets are warriors with some ranger training not rangers from the start. The revolutionary war groups like Rodger’s Rangers and Francis Marion’s guerilla band are a better fit as DnD rangers - woodsman/hunters/trappers/Indian fighters recruited to act as military warriors for a time. The best modern analogs are actually the mountain men of the 1790-1850’s- folks like Daniel Boone, Davy Crockett, Kit Carson, etc. They went out past the boundaries of civilization to explore, hunt, trap etc and had to learn to survive in multiple terrains fighting and living with the local groups of natives etc. The stories of them guiding wagon trains, survey parties and military forces as well as training the next generation of outdoorsmen (the hunters and others of the 1850-1900 period). When they had to be they were fantastic warriors but they actually spent most of their time trying to avoid combat by staying out of sight, leaving as few traces of their passing as possible and learning as much as they could about survival in the different environments from the locals they made friends with. One of my favorite lines comes from one of William Johnstone’s Preacher series.: Preacher is describe life in the high Rockies to young man and tells him about the glacial melt streams- “The waters up there are Strong, cowards cut it with Whisky”.
While we often look to characters like Aragorn as the type for rangers in many ways he is more a fighter than a ranger. Similarly most mideveal figures are fighters primarily. The major exception is Robinhood but we think of him as a rogue more than a ranger too often despite him being probably the quintessential mideveal ranger. Similarly modern groups like the SEALS/Green Berets are warriors with some ranger training not rangers from the start. The revolutionary war groups like Rodger’s Rangers and Francis Marion’s guerilla band are a better fit as DnD rangers - woodsman/hunters/trappers/Indian fighters recruited to act as military warriors for a time. The best modern analogs are actually the mountain men of the 1790-1850’s- folks like Daniel Boone, Davy Crockett, Kit Carson, etc. They went out past the boundaries of civilization to explore, hunt, trap etc and had to learn to survive in multiple terrains fighting and living with the local groups of natives etc. The stories of them guiding wagon trains, survey parties and military forces as well as training the next generation of outdoorsmen (the hunters and others of the 1850-1900 period). When they had to be they were fantastic warriors but they actually spent most of their time trying to avoid combat by staying out of sight, leaving as few traces of their passing as possible and learning as much as they could about survival in the different environments from the locals they made friends with. One of my favorite lines comes from one of William Johnstone’s Preacher series.: Preacher is describe life in the high Rockies to young man and tells him about the glacial melt streams- “The waters up there are Strong, cowards cut it with Whisky”.
Ranger school is a not a prerequisite to become Special Forces (green berets), nor a SEAL. Although, both can attend army Ranger school, and some do.
Sorry you misunderstood I meant training in ranger type skills not the army’s specific ranger school. The survival, tracking, etc skills that definitely are a part of the special forces skill set and that mimic the skill set of a DnD ranger. I know airborne training is part of the green beret prerequisite. And equivalent training is required for the aerial portions of SEAL training. Ranger school may not be required but I suspect most do go thru it if only to hone their skills. My point was really that they are warriors first, woodsmen second while DnD rangers are/should be woodsmen first, warriors second.
A point about terrains and the mountain men as well - by the time they had spent a couple of years surviving in the American west most were knowledgeable about and proficient in at least 3 of the DnD terrains (prairie, forest, mountain) and some of the more wide ranging had also picked up desert. I can’t see calling any of the mountain men as being more than level 10 which means the DnD terrain progression is way to slow. I’ve suggested in the past that it should be 1 terrain every 5 levels, this suggests that is the compromise between real world (1/3 “levels”) and the DnD mechanic (2nd at L6, 3rd and last at L10). Even at 1/3 levels only the highest level rangers would actually have more that half the terrains.
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Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
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If you try to read this as bumper bowling RAW then you will have a bad day. Like the moving bit, folks say "What about breathing and blinking?!", or "You have to have ALL of that stuff to make your camouflage because it says AND in the RAW!!!", or "You have to hide right away because it is all one ability even though it is two completely separate paragraphs!!!" These are the kinds of responses that people will say while saying the ability is dumb or useless. If those people, DDAL, or their DM is that kind of person with that kind of mindset, then the ranger class in general is probably not for them, let alone travel, exploration, speaking with animals, and anything else that isn't hitting something with a crossbow, glaive, or fireball.
Read the ability. If you don't like it, read it again.
Primeval Awareness.
I really love this ability. Again, just like many things in the game that aren't well defined, like hide in plain sight, enchantment magic, illusion magic, divination magic, equipment use, toll use, travel, exploration, and more, this ability will NOT be of any use to you as a player. The variant offers spells that, in my view, are about as useless as the original ability if your DM does not think in a way that makes anything that isn't A + B = C. Like "Hit with sword. Roll 1d8." Those variant spells are world interaction spells. Animals, plants, nature. I am finding DMs that don't know how or don't want to make use of primeval awareness are the same kind of DMs that will not or don't know how to use the primal awareness spells either.
Let's leave out the expanded range of primeval awareness in your favored terrain for just a moment. For the cost of a level 1 spell slot this ability gives you a "ye or no" answer for each of the creature types listed. Not if any of them are in the range, but yes or no for each separate creature type. Like "Undead? Yes. Dragons? No Monstrosities? Yes." etc. Basically all of the "non natural world" type of things. So when searching for something, hunting or whatever. Maybe seeking out a creature.Perhaps right before going into a dungeon, lair, mountain, castle, or wherever, you crack this off and get an idea of what is around. One use right before a rest, short or long, gives valuable information. 1 mile seems like a lot to a lot of people, but it isn't really. In fact, considering you can travel 3 miles in one hour, it isn't far at all. The main thing with this spell, and this is where people get off target as far as I'm concerned, is the point of this ability isn't to tell you what is near and where, it's to tell you what isn't around. That is the point./ The ranger is the watcher of the lands they travel. They are on the lookout for unrest in the natural order of the natural world. A happy ranger is a ranger that cracks of primeval awareness and gets a "No." for each creature type. So if you are using this ability to hunt or track or whatever, that is fine and works, but the ability is meant to be used to confirm the lack of unnatural presence of creatures like the ones listed. If you are using PA to track or hunt, then it is a powerful tool when used with the ranger's other abilities and spells. Unlike, let's take the paladin, class abilities that are like little bit on their own that function within themself, the ranger abilities stack on top of one another and work in conjunction with one another, making the combined result greater then the sum of them separately. And this is where the extended range kicks in.
If you are in your favored terrain, the way I read it, two things happen. 1. You have an option now to choose a range for your PA sense as it says "up to". So right there the favored terrain location offers the ranger more flexibility, not less. A quick word search of the PHB for the words "up to" will give you an idea of how these words are used in the game. You can pick a range of 1 mile, 2.3 miles. or 6 miles, depending on what you want/need to do or find out. This also makes pinging this ability a couple of times in conjunction with being able to control the range makes for a more powerful reading. 2. When you are in your favored terrain and have the option of up to a huge 6 mile range for this ability, you are now, well, in your favored terrain! So all of the stuff that works while in your favored terrain is "on". All of this...
...so all of your knowledge skills, information gathering skills, travel pace, stealth ability, ability to stay perceptive, survival abilities, and most of all TRACKING abilities, are all functioning at the best in the game. If you happen to cross pollinate all of this with your favored enemy(ies) you are now adding advantage to track and find creatures as well. So the abilities really pile on top of one another very quickly. When you add spells and subclass abilities to these situations, a ranger can really be large and in charge of the world around them.
Primeval awareness is kind of a star wars ability for me. When someone says "I sense a disturbance in the force." I think of PA.
Even in a city this ability is great. 1 mile is not a large area for a city, or even some towns, and being able to know right now for a level 1 spell slot if something is in a city that isn't supposed to be there is powerful. It also has the benefit of being a possible plot hook tool for the DM. Does it tell you the address of the aberration, undead, or giant that is in the city? No. But as an action you can save the entire party (and maybe an hour of play time) eliminating the possibility of it even being the case.
All I can tell you for this ability is to think of it as what ISN'T there, not what IS and WHERE it is. People want this to be a thing, it isn't, and they are upset and think it's bad. Again, if your DM, your group, or your table (like DDAL) doesn't interact in the world, or travel, or explore, or solve mysteries, or much else other than talk to some quest giving NPCs and run into glories battle, then I imagine this isn't a spectacular ability for you to play. But if that is the case, ranger isn't the class for your table, Tasha's ranger is better at playing at a combat heavy or DDAL table, but even it is not your best option.
A lot comes from understanding how the world works as well. Say you are hunting a black dragon and dragons are one of your favored enemies and one of your favored terrains is forest. You know black dragons lair in swamps while at he moment you are up in hilly forests and it’s late afternoon. Do you want to camp now or proceed downhill till you have to camp because it’s dark? You still have all your spells so you go full force on PA - 6 mile radius ( your in forest your terrain) and you come up yes for dragons, no for everything else. Ok, dragon within 6 miles ( maybe, if you ask your DM pretty please he tells you it’s a black dragon). 2 nd try is set at 3 miles - no dragon - yeah the dragon is 3-6 miles away probably downhill in a swamp between this ridge line your on and the next. If you stop now you can probably get away with building a small cook fire before dark then snuffing it out at sunset after eating and pitch your tents under the trees and avoid being detected by the dragon while you sleep the night in reasonable safety. If the answer at 3 miles is yes then you may want to go for round 3 as well and check on 1 mile. If it is yes then you might as well see if you can pick up evidence of the dragon and it’s lair while it’s light you are probably too close to camp safely anyway. Or you might want to back track a mile or two and try again to see if it is now out of range and camp then. Working together using all 3 PH abilities linking them gives you much more power than thinking of them as separate and when the DM knows what they are doing with rangers they can be more useful than Tasha’s versions that don’t really have a synergy the way the PH abilities do. We talk a lot about combat abilities and skills that proc each other but seldom about non combat skills that proc each other. since the ranger is meant to be a loner first, party member second their skills and abilities HAVE TO proc each other since they can’t expect to have some one else doing stuff to help or play off of.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Half elf, high elf, drow, hill dwarf, yuan-tim mountain dwarf to name a few. I dont value wood elf's traits very highly. They're too situiationally useful. Certainly a strong race but not one I will look to very often.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Oh my! This is a great video.
https://youtu.be/OIkwABECfR0
It touches on exactly what we are talking about with reading and using rules.
Yes! It’s something I learned in photography class and poetry writing - you have to know the rules fairly well, but to create your best work you also have to know when to break or go beyond the rules because that very act forces your observer to dive deeper not the meaning behind your creation. In DnD we all know the rules moderately well so we have a language for communicating but we don’t always pay close attention in the moment we just do.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
That is really the point - no one race is so superior to the others for any class or subclass that is clearly “THE BEST” so you can play what ever you want and it will probably be pretty darn good, and even if it isn’t don’t we all know folks who aren’t the best at what they do but who thoroughly enjoy what they do and do it to the best of their ability despite that?
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
thanks for that link. watched it and really enjoyed it.
as a (short) reply to your (and Wi1dBi11's) earlier answers on Primeval Awareness and HiPS, thank you that's much appreciated and very interesting.
Look, I hear what you are saying and I get it. Truth be told I wish that the group I normally play with was more like yours and hence applied greater focus to the storytelling and specifically the exploration elements of the game. It is a real shame when the game simply bounces between one social interaction to another or one combat encounter to another. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate both of those elements a lot but I miss the aspect of wonder and exploration as do a lot of 5e players I think.
Personally I agree strongly with Matt Colville on the idea of rulings over rules. I wish most D&D 5e players / DMs felt the same but I'm not sure that is the reality. I often find myself arguing with others at my table who want to take a more 'originalist' attitude to the rules, assuming that it it is not specifically allowed then it must be banned. So you can see how if I have a DM who reads literally class features like PA or HiPS, it can be a little frustrating. I'm quite interested in EN Publishing's new take on Level Up 5e and I'm looking forward to trying out, for the reasons cited hear and loads more (it follows that I also would like more flexibility and texture in the game and sadly cannot rely on my table to generate this without some help lolz).
Take good care and keep having fun.
Cheers
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Don't be Lawful Evil
Yeah, there are 2 basic attitudes towards rules/laws etc:
1) Anything not specifically allowed is forbidden!
2) Anything not specifically forbidden is allowed.
control freaks, and many DMs fall into this category ( tho not all by any means), fall into group 1, by and large I, and I suspect FRGG) fall into group 2.
in the end if you enjoy the game with your group keep on, if not you have 3 choices:
1) show your DM that video and talk to him about opening the game up some.
2) start DMing yourself and run a more open game with lots of exploration and see if your group enjoys it.
3) find a new more open and enjoyable group.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
You bet!
I am under no delusion that many of the current player base (at least those vocal online) are playing a very different type of D&D these days. I think this will either pass in time or at least stabilize a bit as the player base gets used to the game state. We have a lot going on in D&D right now. Players who played 3.5 and/or 4E, players who play online (more so than ever), organized play only players (DDAL), players that are brand new to the game (or any TTRPG), and players that are starting the game, or picking it back up again, after being exposed to high production streamed/televised/broadcasted/podcasted live play D&D specifically designed as entertainment. As people explore the game, the rules, the world(s), and capability of the system, I think these other parts of the game will rise back into the mainstream. The journey is as much, if not more, exciting than the destination.
Travel, exploration, discovering, problem solving, and even just living/existing/creating in the game world, and by association rangers and any classes or subclasses that have any kind of focus on anything other than combat, kind of suffer from the "Free Parking" epidemic of the exploration pillar in D&D 5E right now. People don't use entire chunks of what the game is and state they think those parts of the game and the classes that use it are bad. Just like in Monopoly where people add money to the Free Parking space (not an actual rule of the game) and complain that it takes too long to play.
You are correct. I make a point to play with folks, at tables, in environments, that make use of a lot of the game that many people and tables to do, for whatever reason. Therefore, rangers and their abilities are used, fun, effective, and powerful in all of my experience. All except for my time with DDAL. Playing (as a player) in DDAL has had mixed results playing a ranger. It is just the nature of the beast. DDAL is basically one big house rule group with a new DM every week. Ranger thrive in a deep world existence, strong campaign theme, up front and ongoing narrative story progression, and DM collaboration. DDAL offers almost none of that by its very nature.
I think the Tasha's variants offer playability of a ranger for a good amount of players that can't or won't have a chance to play at a table, with a group, or in a game that allows the PHB ranger to do what it is literally designed to do. Rangers and other builds that focus on things other than just combat are mountain bikes at the Tour de France. Completely out of their element. But take the racing bikes to the woods and the same thing in reverse happens.
All good points and very much agree. Well, if you are ever looking for an extra player at any online games you may be running do let me know! Sounds like your table is a good one! :-)
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Don't be Lawful Evil
Well, there are a few of us from these forums that meet online about once or twice a month to play all ranger (multiclass typically allowed) one shots (usually 1-3 sessions) with rotating DMs. We are specifically comparing ranger abilities in game. Let me know if you have any interest. It’s all on discord.
That sounds very interesting, so yes please let me know. the only caveat is that I’m in Europe, so depending on the timing of your games I might or might not be available. I am normally in the UK (Phila +5) although will be in Greece until end of October which is +7. But by all means please let me know and I’ll do my best :-)
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Don't be Lawful Evil
Two of the group of 5 of us are from over your way. One is in Sweden and the other is also in the UK.
I'll send the link over now.
I don't know if this was brought up, but the whole hiding thing is far less valuable to a Ranger than it is to a Rogue. Rogues get to hide as a bonus action, whereas the Ranger would have to use its full action to hide. In that regard, it is pretty circumstantial.
DDAL and most DM's (though not all) will let you use the Tasha's rules for floating racial ASI's. Barring OP races like Yuan-ti that are literally the strongest for any class, I don't know if there's a single, inarguable best race for a ranger. Half-elves are always strong because they get 4 ASI points to spend, extra skill proficiencies, darkvision, advantage against charm, immunity to sleep spells, and they're thematic. Tabaxi are also thematic, they have a climbing speed, and their feline agility is insane mobility. Seldom are players moving on every turn, so as long as you stay put-- on your next turn you can move 60 feet as a normal movement!
The hiding is rather different for a ranger than a rogue but if the DM is actually doing outdoorsy stuff then it can be just as common and perhaps a bit more so as the ranger then not only has to hide themselves but frequently the entire party. It becomes the ranger’s job to keep the party safe and on track and the best way to stay safe is not to let anyone know your there. So things like staying below ridge lines, moving in streams, knowing how to build smokeless fires (and when to build them), how to disguise or eliminate tracks etc are all part of the ranger’s stealth tactics that should be in play but all to frequently are glossed over because the player and/or DM is unaware of them.
Louis Lamour’s “The Last of the Breed” may be the best book for seeing this played out - it follows 2 modern day rangers (a part native American spy plane pilot shot down over Siberia and his Russian Yakut pursuer as the American attempts to live and survive in Siberia while making his way to the Bering Strait and escaping back to the US. It’s basically 1 ranger chasing the other through primeval forests for over 2 years of story time.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Yes!
Perhaps the biggest strength of the ranger (in general) in the wilderness they are familiar with is the entire party becomes better, safer, faster, and more efficient.
If you start exploring with using ability checks with different skill proficiencies you could get into things like wisdom/intelligence stealth checks to stay as out of sight as possible when traveling through the wilderness.
While we often look to characters like Aragorn as the type for rangers in many ways he is more a fighter than a ranger. Similarly most mideveal figures are fighters primarily. The major exception is Robinhood but we think of him as a rogue more than a ranger too often despite him being probably the quintessential mideveal ranger. Similarly modern groups like the SEALS/Green Berets are warriors with some ranger training not rangers from the start. The revolutionary war groups like Rodger’s Rangers and Francis Marion’s guerilla band are a better fit as DnD rangers - woodsman/hunters/trappers/Indian fighters recruited to act as military warriors for a time. The best modern analogs are actually the mountain men of the 1790-1850’s- folks like Daniel Boone, Davy Crockett, Kit Carson, etc. They went out past the boundaries of civilization to explore, hunt, trap etc and had to learn to survive in multiple terrains fighting and living with the local groups of natives etc. The stories of them guiding wagon trains, survey parties and military forces as well as training the next generation of outdoorsmen (the hunters and others of the 1850-1900 period). When they had to be they were fantastic warriors but they actually spent most of their time trying to avoid combat by staying out of sight, leaving as few traces of their passing as possible and learning as much as they could about survival in the different environments from the locals they made friends with. One of my favorite lines comes from one of William Johnstone’s Preacher series.: Preacher is describe life in the high Rockies to young man and tells him about the glacial melt streams- “The waters up there are Strong, cowards cut it with Whisky”.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Ranger school is a not a prerequisite to become Special Forces (green berets), nor a SEAL. Although, both can attend army Ranger school, and some do.
Sorry you misunderstood I meant training in ranger type skills not the army’s specific ranger school. The survival, tracking, etc skills that definitely are a part of the special forces skill set and that mimic the skill set of a DnD ranger. I know airborne training is part of the green beret prerequisite. And equivalent training is required for the aerial portions of SEAL training. Ranger school may not be required but I suspect most do go thru it if only to hone their skills. My point was really that they are warriors first, woodsmen second while DnD rangers are/should be woodsmen first, warriors second.
A point about terrains and the mountain men as well - by the time they had spent a couple of years surviving in the American west most were knowledgeable about and proficient in at least 3 of the DnD terrains (prairie, forest, mountain) and some of the more wide ranging had also picked up desert. I can’t see calling any of the mountain men as being more than level 10 which means the DnD terrain progression is way to slow. I’ve suggested in the past that it should be 1 terrain every 5 levels, this suggests that is the compromise between real world (1/3 “levels”) and the DnD mechanic (2nd at L6, 3rd and last at L10). Even at 1/3 levels only the highest level rangers would actually have more that half the terrains.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.