Am I the only one that really doesn't see the need for Con on a Ranger? Not that you can ignore it or anything (you can't.)
But I really don't see it as a huge priority. I focus on Dex and Wis with all my Rangers almost exclusively. Con is usually a tertiary stat, competing with Int.
Like, why do we want Con so badly? For HP and Concentration Saves? In my experience with the class, the Ranger doesn't need to worry about either of those nearly as much as other classes. Full casters tend to have a lower hit dice and no medium armor proficiencies, while Paladins and 1/3 Casters tend to plant themselves in the front and tank hits.
I am with you. I usually play a 10 or 12 Constitution on a Ranger. Dex and Wisdom are the priorities and usually Charisma is #3 hovering around 13-14 depending on the build.
My ideal point buy Rangers are:
1. A Goblin S8/D16/C10/W16/I10/Ch14 take shadow touched (cause fear) at level 4, telepathic at level 8, wisdom ASI or Gem Dragon at level 12
2. Dragonborn S8/D16/C12/W16/I10/CH13 Take dragonfear-Charisma at level 4, wisdom ASI at level 8 and level 12
People overvalue constitution in general IMO. The amount of extra hit points you get is not relevant unless you put a ton of ASIs into it. If you are a Ranger and you lose concentration that sucks but cast the spell again. It is not really that big a deal typically and the +1 bonus is not worth it. Neither is resilient IMO considering all the AWESOME half feats you can get with other stats.
I always use to say I could build a ranger with any fill out assignment of the stat array. if that was the first part of a build. I even played an 8 con once on a ranger. it was actually fun but . team knew I was not a damage catcher but instead always played defensively.
Outside of Fey Wanderer I can't imagine a Ranger build that has a real use for high Charisma, particularly in a well-built party where someone else's job is party face. Easily the least useful of the 6 abilities for Rangers in the general case.
I build a charisma heavy beastmaster once for a dm that used persuasion when talking to animals{even with a different dm it would have worked}. I took a skill monkey role and focused on spells and tactics that solved problems before they occur. Attacks with archery fighting style were OK and for the first 5 levels My phb Pet was often the better attacker anyway.
Franky the phb beastmaster companion can solve almost any stat lack except for charisma. which is utterly stupid because of "dog eyes" being known for persuasion.
Rangers have so many spells not tied to the casting stat that you can have quite interesting things to do even if both str, dex are low.
I am not saying I recommend playing this way {except for fun.} level one requires smart play and up till 3 there are plenty of ways to support the team and not drag the party down.
8, 10 and 12 CON is kind of hard, guys. I agree 14 is super ok and I get that Resilient CON is a super nice to have, but at least in my tables CON saves are super common since Tier 1.
I don’t know if it is just my current DMs play style, but poison is quite common in our games. Charm and frighten come close in second. Then from levels 4-5, blindness, paralysis and stunning starts appearing more frequently.
I agree that Rangers wouldn’t be the first target when the combats begins, but once some smarter enemies realize you are getting a lot of people down with your sharpshooted arrows, you will definitely attract their attention to be the first priority on debuff / disablement, not exactly reveice straightforward attacks. It’s not only about concentration, but debilitating effects that target CON can be really dangerous, severely impacting your Ranger effectiveness. If I’m a vHuman and I’m able to get CBE and Sharpshooter at level 4, I usually go for Resilient CON at 8. If I’m playing another race, then depends on the party.
8, 10 and 12 CON is kind of hard, guys. I agree 14 is super ok and I get that Resilient CON is a super nice to have, but at least in my tables CON saves are super common since Tier 1.
I don’t know if it is just my current DMs play style, but poison is quite common in our games. Charm and frighten come close in second. Then from levels 4-5, blindness, paralysis and stunning starts appearing more frequently.
I agree that Rangers wouldn’t be the first target when the combats begins, but once some smarter enemies realize you are getting a lot of people down with your sharpshooted arrows, you will definitely attract their attention to be the first priority on debuff / disablement, not exactly reveice straightforward attacks. It’s not only about concentration, but debilitating effects that target CON can be really dangerous, severely impacting your Ranger effectiveness. If I’m a vHuman and I’m able to get CBE and Sharpshooter at level 4, I usually go for Resilient CON at 8. If I’m playing another race, then depends on the party.
It took me a long time and a lot of play to come to this conclusion but I think constitution is overall the least useful ability in the game in general. that said is not the least important stat on any specific class or build, so I never take an 8 on it in point buy (if you roll well then you get what you get). In games where you roll dice you can get a high constitution or low constitution and you can usually make the character work either way. But in point buy games for the last 2+ years I have never run more than a 13 at level 1 unless I am playing a Barbarian. If I am playing a Rune Knight I will start at 13 and raise it to 14 with either a half feat or ASI at level 4. I've never run less than a 10 and 10 or 12 are most common.
Poision and con saves are common, but it rarely deadly. Charm and frighten usually are imposed on a wisdom save not a constitution and usually Rangers I play max wisdom before dexterity (and more often than not I play a FW that gets advantage against charm and frighten at level 7). I have taken resilient wisdom, but I don't think I have taken resilient con on any character I did not roll abilities on. If I start up with an odd constitution it is usually to split an ASI with another odd score or for a half feat like dragonfear or infernal constitution which I generally find more useful than the saving throw proficiency.
Especially on a Ranger having a good intimidation or persuasion will save your a$$! Not true for every enemy but true for many of those you can communicate with (and with a Ranger that is a lot of them). This is a big reason why Fey Wanderer is so good. You can go into level 8 with a +10 Pesuasion or Intimidation (or +13 with expertise) and the ability to speak with animals in addition to 5ish languages. In a fight kill half of them and then demand/convince the rest to surrender is usually effective with a good check unless your party is getting beat or there is some thematic reason they would not surrender.
I find this applicable across a wide variety of tables. I played with a lot of DMs and many don't really plan for or think about that kind of play, but all of those I have played with allow charisma checks in combat if I ask to do it as an action and it is reasonable considering the situation. In some cases it is not possible, in some cases it fails and in others it is a completely wasted action with no roll, but that is a minority of cases and even if you are rolling into a 25DC, with a +13 that is very makeable especially if you can finagle advantage through a previous cast of Silvery Barbs or the charmed condition or something like that.
Outside of Fey Wanderer I can't imagine a Ranger build that has a real use for high Charisma, particularly in a well-built party where someone else's job is party face. Easily the least useful of the 6 abilities for Rangers in the general case.
I think Constitution is the least useful ability in general and is second to intelligence or on some builds strength as the 2nd least useful for a Ranger specifically.
That said, the number one key requirement for a face is not their charisma score but rather the ability to communicate. If you can't talk it is difficult to even attempt many charisma checks. Rangers get the most languages of any class and get speak with animals through primal awareness. This puts them well ahead from the start and getting a highish (12-14) charisma as well as a background or race that gives proficiency in Charisma skills will make any Ranger extremely useful in this role.
I don't think any class or subclass has the mechanics to be a better face than a Fey Wanderer. Bards can outdo other Rangers with magic and a higher Charisma, but that is a high price to pay to get spells enabling communication because they do not get that magic for free like Rangers do. If you are comparing Charisma classes with non-FW Rangers; Non-FW Rangers will be the face more often, but the charisma classes will be better when they can communicate and get the opportunity. If your non-FW Ranger is taking a 12-14 in Charisma, depending on the campaign that could swing either way whether he is a more effective face than a charisma class.
That said, the number one key requirement for a face is not their charisma score but rather the ability to communicate. If you can't talk it is difficult to even attempt many charisma checks. Rangers get the most languages of any class and get speak with animals through primal awareness. This puts them well ahead from the start and getting a highish (12-14) charisma as well as a background or race that gives proficiency in Charisma skills will make any Ranger extremely useful in this role.
I don't think any class or subclass has the mechanics to be a better face than a Fey Wanderer. Bards can outdo other Rangers with magic and a higher Charisma, but that is a high price to pay to get spells enabling communication because they do not get that magic for free like Rangers do. If you are comparing Charisma classes with non-FW Rangers; Non-FW Rangers will be the face more often, but the charisma classes will be better when they can communicate and get the opportunity. If your non-FW Ranger is taking a 12-14 in Charisma, depending on the campaign that could swing either way whether he is a more effective face than a charisma class.
Whoa there. Rangers can get more languages than most other classes, but that A) doesn't mean they picked the right languages for that particular encounter or campaign; B) knowing language doesn't make you charming and most Rangers don't devote much to Charisma, C) GOO Warlocks are bypass the need for language altogether by speaking directly into the mind of any given creature with a language, which is WAAY more versatile and D) music is the universal language. :P
I wouldn't say fey wanderer rangers are that much better at face jobs but they are good at it. Face is one of those jobs every table needs so most classes have a face build option by level 8. And sometimes Having the ability to talk saves more damage than the higher con score would give you.
Anecdotally, I'm playing Wild Beyond the Witchlight as a Fey Wanderer in a party with two Bards and my face skills are either comparable or superior to them, so I've become the de facto party face.
I as a dm try to encourage non face characters to get a chance to do it. (Generally at a lower risk or as a small reward for success.) to assume you only need one face is faulty. sometimes its more interesting to see players try things they are bad at(or at least medium chances) than the stuff they are good at.
Now some players don't want to be the face so I rarely make situations where they all would do it but adapting and planning is one of the most engaging parts of roleplaying.
I mean what happens if you need a face to buy diamonds to resurrect your dead primary face?
in a game where there are so many paths and options for things to happen every skill or feature has value and every build choice has consequences. getting stuck in a "standard build" is not as much fun. which is why I like rangers they can be built so many different ways ... Unlike some other classes. but some people like playing the same with minor variations so I am glad those exist too.
but going in completely unknown to an adventure challenge, I'd still rather play a ranger than most other classes(not all but most)
The 2 key stats for rangers are obviously Dex and Wis. After that a lot depends on both the player and the character concept. Personally I try to have a 12/14 in Con and Int just because I hate playing dumb characters and I prefer melee rangers to missile rangers so every little bit of HPs helps. If I’m playing a Fey wanderer I might sub out one for Cha for hopefully obvious reasons.
Again, so many ranger spells aren't reliant on wisdom so you actually don't even need high wisdom{you probably want it but don't need it}. rangers have several ways of by bassing wisdom checks If you know its going to be low. One way is A pet companion other ways include taking spells that would replace wisdom checks. "locate spells" or animal friendship and have the target do the tracking. favored terrain or favored enemy. enhance ability if all else fails.
Now if you free up wisdom Int is probably the way to go but you could go charisma or strength as well. Rangers really can progress very flexibly.
Again, so many ranger spells aren't reliant on wisdom so you actually don't even need high wisdom{you probably want it but don't need it}. rangers have several ways of by bassing wisdom checks If you know its going to be low. One way is A pet companion other ways include taking spells that would replace wisdom checks. "locate spells" or animal friendship and have the target do the tracking. favored terrain or favored enemy. enhance ability if all else fails.
Now if you free up wisdom Int is probably the way to go but you could go charisma or strength as well. Rangers really can progress very flexibly.
This is true. But it is equally true you don't need higher than a 14 dexterity. I tend to make Wisdom my primary stat on most Ranger builds.
Whoa there. Rangers can get more languages than most other classes, but that A) doesn't mean they picked the right languages for that particular encounter or campaign; B) knowing language doesn't make you charming and most Rangers don't devote much to Charisma, C) GOO Warlocks are bypass the need for language altogether by speaking directly into the mind of any given creature with a language, which is WAAY more versatile and D) music is the universal language. :P
There are 11 pages of beasts on the DND beyond monster section and speak with animals lets the Ranger speak with all of them that is pretty close to what a GOO Warlock can speak to.
Knowing a language does not make you charming. That is what the investment in Charisma and proficiency in social skills are for .... so I am "charming".
If you are picking foes and languages without consulting the DM about what to pick for their campaign your making a significant mistake. If you ( like me) are a campaign jumper then yes you may be stuck with somewhat ina proprietress language choices but speaking to the Dm can often alleviate this with some changes being allowed.
The thing is, though, beasts are generally one of the least dangerous creature types. If I wanted to make sure my Suggestion spell lands, I'd much rather just pick a species/race that has telepathy/pick up the Telepathic feat from Tasha's, or multiclass with GOO Warlock.
Most of a ranger’s languages come from favored foe/enemy so the choice has to be one that suits the character and the campaign. There are 14 options of which you get only 3 so the selection has to be done carefully to get the greatest benefit. We had a thread about that around a year ago if you want to go back and try and find it. My personal choices are:
L1) either beasts or humanoids ( and there 2 out of humans, elves ( which includes Drow) and goblinoids (goblins, hobgoblins & bugbears),
L6) either aberations, demons/devils or undead
L14) dragons
which I pick at any level is often campaign dependant after getting the DM’s advice and seeing what type of stuff we have been running into a lot.
The tricky thing is, though, not all Humanoids speak the same language. Neither do all Aberrations. I'm not saying that having more languages is bad in any campaign where the DM is willing to entertain non-violent solutions to problems, but direct telepathy bypasses the language issue altogether.
I am with you. I usually play a 10 or 12 Constitution on a Ranger. Dex and Wisdom are the priorities and usually Charisma is #3 hovering around 13-14 depending on the build.
My ideal point buy Rangers are:
1. A Goblin S8/D16/C10/W16/I10/Ch14 take shadow touched (cause fear) at level 4, telepathic at level 8, wisdom ASI or Gem Dragon at level 12
2. Dragonborn S8/D16/C12/W16/I10/CH13 Take dragonfear-Charisma at level 4, wisdom ASI at level 8 and level 12
People overvalue constitution in general IMO. The amount of extra hit points you get is not relevant unless you put a ton of ASIs into it. If you are a Ranger and you lose concentration that sucks but cast the spell again. It is not really that big a deal typically and the +1 bonus is not worth it. Neither is resilient IMO considering all the AWESOME half feats you can get with other stats.
I always use to say I could build a ranger with any fill out assignment of the stat array. if that was the first part of a build. I even played an 8 con once on a ranger. it was actually fun but . team knew I was not a damage catcher but instead always played defensively.
Outside of Fey Wanderer I can't imagine a Ranger build that has a real use for high Charisma, particularly in a well-built party where someone else's job is party face. Easily the least useful of the 6 abilities for Rangers in the general case.
I build a charisma heavy beastmaster once for a dm that used persuasion when talking to animals{even with a different dm it would have worked}. I took a skill monkey role and focused on spells and tactics that solved problems before they occur. Attacks with archery fighting style were OK and for the first 5 levels My phb Pet was often the better attacker anyway.
Franky the phb beastmaster companion can solve almost any stat lack except for charisma. which is utterly stupid because of "dog eyes" being known for persuasion.
Rangers have so many spells not tied to the casting stat that you can have quite interesting things to do even if both str, dex are low.
I am not saying I recommend playing this way {except for fun.} level one requires smart play and up till 3 there are plenty of ways to support the team and not drag the party down.
8, 10 and 12 CON is kind of hard, guys. I agree 14 is super ok and I get that Resilient CON is a super nice to have, but at least in my tables CON saves are super common since Tier 1.
I don’t know if it is just my current DMs play style, but poison is quite common in our games. Charm and frighten come close in second. Then from levels 4-5, blindness, paralysis and stunning starts appearing more frequently.
I agree that Rangers wouldn’t be the first target when the combats begins, but once some smarter enemies realize you are getting a lot of people down with your sharpshooted arrows, you will definitely attract their attention to be the first priority on debuff / disablement, not exactly reveice straightforward attacks. It’s not only about concentration, but debilitating effects that target CON can be really dangerous, severely impacting your Ranger effectiveness. If I’m a vHuman and I’m able to get CBE and Sharpshooter at level 4, I usually go for Resilient CON at 8. If I’m playing another race, then depends on the party.
It took me a long time and a lot of play to come to this conclusion but I think constitution is overall the least useful ability in the game in general. that said is not the least important stat on any specific class or build, so I never take an 8 on it in point buy (if you roll well then you get what you get). In games where you roll dice you can get a high constitution or low constitution and you can usually make the character work either way. But in point buy games for the last 2+ years I have never run more than a 13 at level 1 unless I am playing a Barbarian. If I am playing a Rune Knight I will start at 13 and raise it to 14 with either a half feat or ASI at level 4. I've never run less than a 10 and 10 or 12 are most common.
Poision and con saves are common, but it rarely deadly. Charm and frighten usually are imposed on a wisdom save not a constitution and usually Rangers I play max wisdom before dexterity (and more often than not I play a FW that gets advantage against charm and frighten at level 7). I have taken resilient wisdom, but I don't think I have taken resilient con on any character I did not roll abilities on. If I start up with an odd constitution it is usually to split an ASI with another odd score or for a half feat like dragonfear or infernal constitution which I generally find more useful than the saving throw proficiency.
Especially on a Ranger having a good intimidation or persuasion will save your a$$! Not true for every enemy but true for many of those you can communicate with (and with a Ranger that is a lot of them). This is a big reason why Fey Wanderer is so good. You can go into level 8 with a +10 Pesuasion or Intimidation (or +13 with expertise) and the ability to speak with animals in addition to 5ish languages. In a fight kill half of them and then demand/convince the rest to surrender is usually effective with a good check unless your party is getting beat or there is some thematic reason they would not surrender.
I find this applicable across a wide variety of tables. I played with a lot of DMs and many don't really plan for or think about that kind of play, but all of those I have played with allow charisma checks in combat if I ask to do it as an action and it is reasonable considering the situation. In some cases it is not possible, in some cases it fails and in others it is a completely wasted action with no roll, but that is a minority of cases and even if you are rolling into a 25DC, with a +13 that is very makeable especially if you can finagle advantage through a previous cast of Silvery Barbs or the charmed condition or something like that.
I think Constitution is the least useful ability in general and is second to intelligence or on some builds strength as the 2nd least useful for a Ranger specifically.
That said, the number one key requirement for a face is not their charisma score but rather the ability to communicate. If you can't talk it is difficult to even attempt many charisma checks. Rangers get the most languages of any class and get speak with animals through primal awareness. This puts them well ahead from the start and getting a highish (12-14) charisma as well as a background or race that gives proficiency in Charisma skills will make any Ranger extremely useful in this role.
I don't think any class or subclass has the mechanics to be a better face than a Fey Wanderer. Bards can outdo other Rangers with magic and a higher Charisma, but that is a high price to pay to get spells enabling communication because they do not get that magic for free like Rangers do. If you are comparing Charisma classes with non-FW Rangers; Non-FW Rangers will be the face more often, but the charisma classes will be better when they can communicate and get the opportunity. If your non-FW Ranger is taking a 12-14 in Charisma, depending on the campaign that could swing either way whether he is a more effective face than a charisma class.
Whoa there. Rangers can get more languages than most other classes, but that A) doesn't mean they picked the right languages for that particular encounter or campaign; B) knowing language doesn't make you charming and most Rangers don't devote much to Charisma, C) GOO Warlocks are bypass the need for language altogether by speaking directly into the mind of any given creature with a language, which is WAAY more versatile and D) music is the universal language. :P
I wouldn't say fey wanderer rangers are that much better at face jobs but they are good at it. Face is one of those jobs every table needs so most classes have a face build option by level 8. And sometimes Having the ability to talk saves more damage than the higher con score would give you.
Anecdotally, I'm playing Wild Beyond the Witchlight as a Fey Wanderer in a party with two Bards and my face skills are either comparable or superior to them, so I've become the de facto party face.
I as a dm try to encourage non face characters to get a chance to do it. (Generally at a lower risk or as a small reward for success.) to assume you only need one face is faulty. sometimes its more interesting to see players try things they are bad at(or at least medium chances) than the stuff they are good at.
Now some players don't want to be the face so I rarely make situations where they all would do it but adapting and planning is one of the most engaging parts of roleplaying.
I mean what happens if you need a face to buy diamonds to resurrect your dead primary face?
in a game where there are so many paths and options for things to happen every skill or feature has value and every build choice has consequences. getting stuck in a "standard build" is not as much fun. which is why I like rangers they can be built so many different ways ... Unlike some other classes. but some people like playing the same with minor variations so I am glad those exist too.
but going in completely unknown to an adventure challenge, I'd still rather play a ranger than most other classes(not all but most)
The 2 key stats for rangers are obviously Dex and Wis. After that a lot depends on both the player and the character concept. Personally I try to have a 12/14 in Con and Int just because I hate playing dumb characters and I prefer melee rangers to missile rangers so every little bit of HPs helps. If I’m playing a Fey wanderer I might sub out one for Cha for hopefully obvious reasons.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Again, so many ranger spells aren't reliant on wisdom so you actually don't even need high wisdom{you probably want it but don't need it}. rangers have several ways of by bassing wisdom checks If you know its going to be low. One way is A pet companion other ways include taking spells that would replace wisdom checks. "locate spells" or animal friendship and have the target do the tracking. favored terrain or favored enemy. enhance ability if all else fails.
Now if you free up wisdom Int is probably the way to go but you could go charisma or strength as well. Rangers really can progress very flexibly.
This is true. But it is equally true you don't need higher than a 14 dexterity. I tend to make Wisdom my primary stat on most Ranger builds.
There are 11 pages of beasts on the DND beyond monster section and speak with animals lets the Ranger speak with all of them that is pretty close to what a GOO Warlock can speak to.
Knowing a language does not make you charming. That is what the investment in Charisma and proficiency in social skills are for .... so I am "charming".
If you are picking foes and languages without consulting the DM about what to pick for their campaign your making a significant mistake. If you ( like me) are a campaign jumper then yes you may be stuck with somewhat ina proprietress language choices but speaking to the Dm can often alleviate this with some changes being allowed.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
The thing is, though, beasts are generally one of the least dangerous creature types. If I wanted to make sure my Suggestion spell lands, I'd much rather just pick a species/race that has telepathy/pick up the Telepathic feat from Tasha's, or multiclass with GOO Warlock.
Most of a ranger’s languages come from favored foe/enemy so the choice has to be one that suits the character and the campaign. There are 14 options of which you get only 3 so the selection has to be done carefully to get the greatest benefit. We had a thread about that around a year ago if you want to go back and try and find it. My personal choices are:
L1) either beasts or humanoids ( and there 2 out of humans, elves ( which includes Drow) and goblinoids (goblins, hobgoblins & bugbears),
L6) either aberations, demons/devils or undead
L14) dragons
which I pick at any level is often campaign dependant after getting the DM’s advice and seeing what type of stuff we have been running into a lot.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
The tricky thing is, though, not all Humanoids speak the same language. Neither do all Aberrations. I'm not saying that having more languages is bad in any campaign where the DM is willing to entertain non-violent solutions to problems, but direct telepathy bypasses the language issue altogether.