The maximum number of creatures it can hit is 9 (the creature and the 8 squares around it) unless there are also flying creatures within 5 ft above the creature (pushing it to a max of 18). "But it's not single target damage!" Why discount AOE when you complain about discounting Smites?
Actually if the enemies are Tiny you can fit four into a 5'x5' square, so that's up to 36 ground enemies in one go if your DM just goes by squares. Extend that to flying and you can have 8 in a 5'x5' cube, plus your original target doesn't need to be on the ground, so that's a maximum of an extra 5' above and below, for a whopping potential 120-216 targets depending upon how your DM rules within 5' on your battlefields. Take that, Imps! 😄
More seriously though it really does just highlight the things that Rangers do differently; ranged Rangers are great against mobs and fantastic against hordes, while melee Rangers can be as well depending upon the sub-class and other choices you make. Meanwhile they both more than pull their weight against a single extra tough enemy.
But as usual these threads get dragged down to the usual nonsense where "power-gamers" go out of their way to cripple themselves to optimise for specific combat scenarios, forgetting that their DM could throw absolutely anything at them. Thing is though, being able to do 1,000 damage in a single hit is no use to anyone if you're fighting a million bats; in actual varied campaigns raw damage matters less than versatility, so you really do have to wonder whether any of the "power-gamers" actually play, because being really good at one thing and one thing only is no good when you can't do it.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
Lets remove the major ability from Paladin and say its a fair comparison!
The delusion here is so bad its sad....good luck to you all and I look forward to the CFV which will hopefully fix Ranger!
Smiting is a limited resource and lines up with Ranger AoE abilities. Improved Divine Smite is fine to apply since it adds 1d8 radiant damage to all melee attacks at 11th level. Base Ranger doesn't have anything to match that single target if we are assuming that a Paladin is using Divine Favor to counter most of Hunter's Mark. If they aren't, then Paladin goes up an average point of damage as opposed to down an average point of damage. A Ranger relies on the subclass for an 11th level bump, since that's all it gets at 11th level is archetype features.
Smiting itself is 2d8 damage for a first level spell up to 5d8 damage for a 4th or greater. Tack an extra 1d8 onto it if it's against an undead.
A Ranger can match that by casting Hail of Thorns for 1d10 on a failed save against 2 creatures or half as much against 4 creatures that all save. It bumps up by 1d10 per spell level. The maximum number of creatures it can hit is 9 (the creature and the 8 squares around it) unless there are also flying creatures within 5 ft above the creature (pushing it to a max of 18). "But it's not single target damage!" Why discount AOE when you complain about discounting Smites?
Yeah!
At level 17 using a 5th level spell slot:
Paladin (with long sword and smite) does an average of 59 damage [(4.5 + 4.5 + 2 + 5)*2 + 6d8]. That is really good! A great sword would be 62 damage!!!
A hunter ranger (long bow, colossus slayer, and hail of thorns at two targets) does an average of 64.75 damage [(4.5 + 5)*2 + 4.5 + (5d10)*2], assuming a 50% save against the ranger's spell DC for the hail of thorns damage.
A beast master ranger (long bow, wolf, and hail of thorns at two targets) does an average of 76.75 damage [(2d4 + 2 + 6)*2 + (4.5 + 5) + (5d10)*2], assuming a 50% save against the ranger's spell DC for the hail of thorns damage.
Lets remove the major ability from Paladin and say its a fair comparison!
The delusion here is so bad its sad....good luck to you all and I look forward to the CFV which will hopefully fix Ranger!
Smiting is a limited resource and lines up with Ranger AoE abilities. Improved Divine Smite is fine to apply since it adds 1d8 radiant damage to all melee attacks at 11th level. Base Ranger doesn't have anything to match that single target if we are assuming that a Paladin is using Divine Favor to counter most of Hunter's Mark. If they aren't, then Paladin goes up an average point of damage as opposed to down an average point of damage. A Ranger relies on the subclass for an 11th level bump, since that's all it gets at 11th level is archetype features.
Smiting itself is 2d8 damage for a first level spell up to 5d8 damage for a 4th or greater. Tack an extra 1d8 onto it if it's against an undead.
A Ranger can match that by casting Hail of Thorns for 1d10 on a failed save against 2 creatures or half as much against 4 creatures that all save. It bumps up by 1d10 per spell level. The maximum number of creatures it can hit is 9 (the creature and the 8 squares around it) unless there are also flying creatures within 5 ft above the creature (pushing it to a max of 18). "But it's not single target damage!" Why discount AOE when you complain about discounting Smites?
Yeah!
At level 17 using a 5th level spell slot:
Paladin (with long sword and smite) does an average of 59 damage [(4.5 + 4.5 + 2 + 5)*2 + 6d8]. That is really good! A great sword would be 62 damage!!!
A hunter ranger (long bow, colossus slayer, and hail of thorns at two targets) does an average of 64.75 damage [(4.5 + 5)*2 + 4.5 + (5d10)*2], assuming a 50% save against the ranger's spell DC for the hail of thorns damage.
A beast master ranger (long bow, wolf, and hail of thorns at two targets) does an average of 76.75 damage [(2d4 + 2 + 6)*2 + (4.5 + 5) + (5d10)*2], assuming a 50% save against the ranger's spell DC for the hail of thorns damage.
Keep in mind that [spell]Hail of Thorns[spell] goes to 6d10 with a 5th level slot.
You should have notated (don't want people to think that you aren't including Improved Divine Smite by only reading half the post or glossing over stuff ;) that the 4.5 + 4.5 for the Paladin was the longsword plus improved Divine Smite, followed by 2 for dueling and 5 for strength (16) * 2 for extra attack and only 5d8 Smite damage unless it's against an undead to 6d8. (32+ 24.5 or 28= 56.5 or 60. Going with the 2d6 weapon does add 1.5 per attack, but GWFS is only 1.33 instead of 2 for dueling so 62-63ish is about right. Also, Colossus Slayer and Horde Breaker are a wash when discussing Hail of Thorns, but I understand why you went that way (it is the power gamer option after all).
In short, it's just as we've been saying to the naysayers that Ranger isn't underpowered overall. The single target damage might be lacking in power build components and there might be more risk reward involved with some of the builds than with Fighter or Paladin but the entire chassis is comparable and shines quite well next to either class. If the class doesn't do what you want, that doesn't mean that it's underpowered, just that it doesn't do what you want or at least not how you want.
Jounichi1983, we should also mention that magic weapon and elemental weapon specifically say a non-magical weapon. So that is kind of a fly in the ointment at these levels for any martial.
It can impact their ability to put up competitive damage numbers, but the point is Paladins have a means of bypassing resistance and immunity to nonmagical weapon attacks. Rangers simply don't.
Jounichi1983, we should also mention that magic weapon and elemental weapon specifically say a non-magical weapon. So that is kind of a fly in the ointment at these levels for any martial.
It can impact their ability to put up competitive damage numbers, but the point is Paladins have a means of bypassing resistance and immunity to nonmagical weapon attacks. Rangers simply don't.
Ah. I see. I misunderstood the point.
Luckily (the glass half full person that I am!), as has been pointed out by our pro-paladin friends of late, less of a ranger’s damage output comes from directly from their weapon compared to a fighter (who has zero ways of bypassing magic resistances) or paladin. And...
Paladin are great! Super powerful! Also, regulated to the front lines like 99% of time. If I was a ranger in a party with a paladin, I’d want the paladin to have aura and smites too. LOL!
For some reason, people keep talking about things being “underpowered” or (to a lesser extent) “overpowered”. 1, playtesting exitst and if you want to give feedback give it directly, and 2, nothing is so broken that playing it would be bad. D&D is a role-playing game. Sometimes, I wonder if people forget that.
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All hail the great and mighty platypus.
Resisting is simply standing in front of the tide and pushing at it. Even if you endure at first, you will eventually break down. Adapting, by contrast, is turning into a fish.
-me
Rangers are not underpowered. They’re just exploration-oriented.
I’ll bet a lot of the folks in this thread, including myself, agree with you whole heartedly. However you touched ever so lightly on the root of the disagreement on this thread. Are rangers underpowered? They aren’t.
I’ll bet a lot of the folks in this thread, including myself, agree with you whole heartedly. However you touched ever so lightly on the root of the disagreement on this thread. Are rangers underpowered? They aren’t.
Of course.
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All hail the great and mighty platypus.
Resisting is simply standing in front of the tide and pushing at it. Even if you endure at first, you will eventually break down. Adapting, by contrast, is turning into a fish.
-me
Rangers are not underpowered. They’re just exploration-oriented.
I'll echo sfPanzer's sentiment. The biggest problem is that there's too much competition for the Bonus Action and Concentration resource for the Ranger.
The Ranger performs pretty well, all said and done in my experience at the tables. Do they do as much damage as other classes? No, but that's not to say the Ranger is bad.
Almost no one does as much damage as Paladins anyhow, we don't say everyone not hitting Paladin damage output numbers are pointless. It's just that the class feels frustrating to play because you can't use all the features without gating off a tremendous amount of other features.
all the classes are underpowered! (when compared to CR 57 monsters)
And CR 57 monsters don’t exist, and they are underpowered compared to CR 73 monsters, which also don’t exist.
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All hail the great and mighty platypus.
Resisting is simply standing in front of the tide and pushing at it. Even if you endure at first, you will eventually break down. Adapting, by contrast, is turning into a fish.
-me
Rangers are not underpowered. They’re just exploration-oriented.
Flyby. Tiamat doesn't provoke opportunity attacks when it flies out of an enemy's reach. additionally, Tiamat's dexterity is 14 instead of 12 while flying.
Limited Magic immunity. Tiamat is unaffected by all spells that are 6th level or lower, unless she wishes to be. she also has an advantage on saving throws against magical effects, and has resistance to all damage dealt by spells of level 7 or lower.
Legendary Resistance (7/Day). If Tiamat fails a saving throw, she can choose to succeed instead.
Magic Weapons. Tiamat’s weapon attacks are magical.
Regeneration. If Tiamat has at least 1 hit point, she regains 25 hit points, for each head she has remaining, at the start of her turn.
Discorporation. When Tiamat drops to 0 hit points or dies, her body is destroyed but her essence travels back to her domain in the Nine Hells, and she is unable to take physical form for a time.
Whenever Tiamat takes 250 or more damage in a single turn, one of her heads dies. If all her heads die, she dies.
Elemental Aura. Tiamat has an aura of nearly invisible crackling elemental power. the aura extends 40 feet around her in all directions. when a creature ends its turn in the aura, or enters it for the first time, they must make a constitution saving throw, taking 36 (8d8) damage on a failed save, or half as much on a successful one. the damage type is either fire, cold, lightning, poison, or acid damage. (Tiamat's choice).
Innate Spellcasting. Tiamat’s innate spellcasting ability is charisma. (spell save DC 32). It can innately cast the following spells, requiring no components:
Stats. The D&D Beyond monster homebrew-er does not let you increase stats beyond 30. because of that, this tells you Tiamat's actual stats. STR: 38 | DEX: 12, | CON: 40 | INT: 28 | WIS: 30 | CHA: 36.
CR. The D&D Beyond monster homebrew-er does not let you increase CR above 30, so this tells you Tiamat's actual CR. it is 57.
Size: D&D Beyond monster homebrew-er does not let you increase size above gargantuan, so this tells you Tiamat's actual size. it is colossal. colossal monsters range from 50 by 50 feet to 100000 by 100000 feet.
Proficiency Bonus. The D&D Beyond monster homebrew-er does not let you choose the monster's proficiency bonus, so this tells you Tiamat's actual proficiency bonus. it is +12. and thus, Tiamat's saves are actually: STR: +26 | DEX: +13 | CON: +27 | INT: +21 | WIS: +22 | CHA: +25.
Actions
MultiAttack. Tiamat makes 2 claw attacks, a number of bite attacks equal to the number of heads she has left, each with a different head, either a wing or tail attacks, uses 1 of her presences, and casts a spell if she has 200 or less hp left.
Claw.Melee Weapon Attack: +26 to hit, reach 15 ft., 1 target. Hit: 40 (4d12 + 14) slashing damage, and the target takes an additional 14 (4d6) damage. the damage type is either fire, cold, lightning, acid, or poison. (her choice).
Bite (White Head).Melee Weapon Attack: +26 to hit, reach 10 ft., 1 target. Hit: 52 (11d6+14) piercing damage, and the target must make a DC 32 constitution saving throw. on a failed save, the target takes an additional 13 (3d8) cold damage, and they have a disadvantage on their next attack roll.
Bite (Green Head).Melee Weapon Attack: +26 to hit, reach 10 ft., 1 target. Hit: 52 (11d6+14) piercing damage, and the target must make a DC 32 constitution saving throw. on a failed save, the target takes an additional 10 (3d6) poison damage, and they are poisoned fir a minute. they target may repeat the save on each of there turns, ending the effect on a success.
Bite (Red Head).Melee Weapon Attack: +26 to hit, reach 10 ft., 1 target. Hit: 52 (11d6+14) piercing damage, and the target must make a DC 32 constitution saving throw. on a failed save, the target takes an additional 17 (5d6) fire damage.
Bite (Blue Head).Melee Weapon Attack: +26 to hit, reach 10 ft., 1 target. Hit: 52 (11d6+14) piercing damage, and the target must make a DC 32 constitution saving throw. on a failed save, the target takes an additional 16 (3d10) lightning damage.
Bite (Black Head).Melee Weapon Attack: +26 to hit, reach 10 ft., 1 target. Hit: 52 (11d6+14) piercing damage, and the target must make a DC 32 constitution saving throw. on a failed save, the target takes an additional 7 (3d4) acid damage, and they take an additional 5 (2d4) acid damage on the start of each of their turns. they may repeat the saving throw on each of their turns, ending the effect on a success.
Wing Attack. all creatures in a 100 by 15 foot line, must succeed a DC 33 strength saving throw, or take 13 (3d8) bludgeoning damage, and be pushed back 15 feet.
Frightful Presence. Each creature of Tiamat’s choice that is within 240 feet of Tiamat and aware of her must succeed on a DC 32 Wisdom saving throw or become frightened for 1 minute. A creature can repeat the saving throw at the end of each of its turns, ending the effect on itself on a success. If a creature’s saving throw is successful or the effect ends for it, the creature is immune to Tiamat’s Frightful Presence for the next 24 hours.
Celestial Presence (recharge 6). Each creature of Tiamat’s choice that is within 240 feet of Tiamat and aware of her must succeed on a DC 32 Wisdom saving throw or take 11 (2d10) radiant damage, and be stunned for 1 round.
Demonic Presence (recharge 5-6). Each creature of Tiamat’s choice that is within 240 feet of Tiamat and aware of her must succeed on a DC constitution Wisdom saving throw or take 14 (4d6) necrotic damage, and have bestow curse cast on them, without requiring concentration.
Primordial Presence (recharge 5-6). Each creature of Tiamat’s choice that is within 240 feet of Tiamat and aware of her must succeed on a DC 33 constitution saving throw, or take 14 (4d6) damage. the damage type is either fire, lightning, cold, acid, or poison. (her choice.) Tiamat than gains 10 (3d6) temporary hit points.
Legendary Actions
Tiamat can take 7 legendary actions, choosing from the options below. Only one legendary action option can be used at a time and only at the end of another creature’s turn. Tiamat regains spent legendary actions at the start of her turn.
Tiamat’s legendary action options are associated with her five dragon heads (a bite and a breath weapon for each). Once Tiamat chooses a legendary action option for one of her heads, she can’t choose another one associated with that head until the start of her next turn.
Wing Attack (Costs 1 Action). Tiamat uses her Wing Attack
Tail (Costs 1 Action). Tiamat uses her Tail Attack
Bite (Costs 2 Actions). Tiamat uses one of her bite attacks.
Black Dragon Head: Acid Breath (Costs 4 Actions). Tiamat breathes acid in a 400-foot line that is 20 feet wide. Each creature in that line must make a DC 32 Dexterity saving throw, taking 87 (35d4) acid damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one. if the target failed the save, than they take 15 (6d4) damage at the start of each of their turns for a minute. they may repeat the save on each of their turns, ending the effect on a success.
Blue Dragon Head: Lightning Breath (Costs 4 Actions). Tiamat breathes lightning in a 400-foot line that is 20 feet wide. Each creature in that line must make a DC 27 Dexterity saving throw, taking 176 (32d10) lightning damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one.
Green Dragon Head: Poison Breath (Costs 4 Actions). Tiamat breathes poisonous gas in a 250-foot cone. Each creature in that area must make a DC 27 Constitution saving throw, taking 150 (43d6) poison damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one. if they failed the save, they are poisoned for a minute. on each of their turns, they may repeat the save, ending the effect on a success.
Red Dragon Head: Fire Breath (Costs 4 Actions). Tiamat breathes fire in a 250-foot cone. Each creature in that area must make a DC 27 Dexterity saving throw, taking 182 (52d6) fire damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one.
White Dragon Head: Cold Breath (Costs 4 Actions). Tiamat breathes an icy blast in a 250-foot cone. Each creature in that area must make a DC 27 Dexterity saving throw, taking 144 (32d8) cold damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one. either way, all creatures hit by the blast have their speed reduced by 20 (to a minimum of 0), and a disadvantage on all dice rolls on until the end of Tiamat's next turn.
but good piont, they are also underpowered compared to CR 73 monster too :) time to homebrew some of those
I find rangers do as much damage as other classes just fine.
Paladins and fighters put out good consistent single target damage with big controlled spike damage through action surge and smites, with the paladin being 100% confined to melee combat.
Rogues and barbarians put out great consistent single target damage with uncontrolled spikes through critical hits, with the barbarian being 100% confined to melee combat.
Ranger keeps up with everyone in damage, across the board, in all ways, except for big single target damage spikes, controlled or uncontrolled. Rangers can be ranged or melee combatants. Ranger get their big damage from fighting lots of enemies at the same time and from control through the use of their spells. The other thing that people forget is rangers get their main damage boosts form their magic and subclass choice, where the other martials get their damage boosts baked into their core base class. Yes, some of the subclasses for other classes get some damage boosts, but not in as dependent a way as the ranger. Instead of comparing a base class to a base class, we need to compare subclass to subclass, with the hunter being the obvious choice if comparing just raw damage output.
Frank you killed it with that summation. Very concise and informative. Also killer username. Really firing on all cylinders
I agree that the Ranger does just fine when it comes to keeping up in combat. The class definitely has a power vacuum from levels 6-10 so that's rough, but I think more than anything it suffers from some really bad optics. It's cousin class, the Paladin, which has the same skeleton, is a darling of the 5e community and delivers flashy damage and rock solid defenses at the same time. These are crowd pleasing qualities. It's hard not to compare what the Ranger gets in the same places. BUT, this is mostly confirmation bias. People don't remember the sessions where they dealt 10ish damage with every attack and never had any difficulty finding a way to get their attacks in. They do remember those huge damage spikes from a crit-smite, though. In the end, it mostly evens out, and I've found the ranger to be a super impressive contributor when it comes to consistency. Not in the way that the ranger does the same thing every time, but that the ranger will always find something to do and be a solid contributor from round 1 of combat.
The ranger's versatility is an understated strength. It just doesn't get the love it deserves because so many people love feeling like gods with their favorite weapon. In my last campaign the party's gloomstalker was my favorite teammate. In a party of a land (grassland) druid, diviner wizard (me), gloomstalker ranger, conquest paladin and swords bard, he was the glue of the team (much more than the bard). Switching from tank to ranged whenever needed, he just always brought it. He always filled in the gaps and was ready to perform whatever role we needed most. Goodberry is a great piece of the ranger kit that makes the whole team more survivable. Cast it at the beginning of the day and hand 2+ out to everyone in the group. Now everyone has a couple uses of an improved spare the dying that don't take up your actions. Nothing the ranger does is flashy, but it brings a lot of little things to the table, and in the end, the sum of the parts is a satisfyingly powerful class.
The ranger is the best extra attack martial at doing things other than killing. When you try to play to that side of the ranger and have a DM that supports you, things get really cool. Rangers aren't generally dedicated warriors in the way that a paladin under oath or fighter serving in an army is. They can be hunter/trappers, bounty hunters, guides, scouts, hermits, consummate outdoorsman, etc. The more you play to that side of the ranger, the more satisfying the experience becomes and the more concerns of power fade away.
very interesting thread. I have started to look into rangers because of all of the hate against them. I never liked rangers because their powers were always terrain based. (errata seems to fix that mainly) the more I look into ranger the more I am starting to like it. rangers originally had some major design flaws but has evolved well past those I think the only issue seems to be the stereo type remaining. I am an older player who used to play back in 3.0/3.5 era. The ranger has always had a weird niche but I like where the ranger has gone in fifth edition. tasha's did some major upgrades and errata on some wording to the original players hand book have made rangers a solid choice I think.
the main problem that rangers have is that they are kinda all rounders. they make good archers, have some magic, can heal, great travelers, can sneak, decent melee and have survival skills. Tasha's updates to the class are good because they are not terrain dependent and give some nice new spell options to the ranger. they are now a much more rounded class that has a lot less GM dependency and have a chance for great roll playing.
many classes can be OP in certain situations. in my opinion true OP rarely happens. most of these OP moments are situational and a smart DM can stop them from happening all of the time. The ranger is not OP so far as I have seen. I will hopefully be seeing if this is true very soon but I never felt like the ranger is OP when I have played with people who play rangers... A**holes... yes but that is true of most backliners I have seen play. the battle was sooo boring I didn't even get hit... mean while the fighter/barbarian has super low HP and has done everything in his/her power to stop the enemy from reaching the second line. (sorry a little bit of ranting). But I am warming up to the versatility of the ranger
“Frank you killed it with that summation. Very concise and informative. Also killer username. Really firing on all cylinders“
HeironymusZot, sarcasm?
I don’t think it’s sarcasm.
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All hail the great and mighty platypus.
Resisting is simply standing in front of the tide and pushing at it. Even if you endure at first, you will eventually break down. Adapting, by contrast, is turning into a fish.
-me
Rangers are not underpowered. They’re just exploration-oriented.
Definitely not my dude. I think that post of yours was great. Super informative, yet concise. It's a super helpful breakdown of the basic natures of the martial classes AND makes a case for why the ranger fits right in. I loved it.
And I love your username
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Actually if the enemies are Tiny you can fit four into a 5'x5' square, so that's up to 36 ground enemies in one go if your DM just goes by squares. Extend that to flying and you can have 8 in a 5'x5' cube, plus your original target doesn't need to be on the ground, so that's a maximum of an extra 5' above and below, for a whopping potential 120-216 targets depending upon how your DM rules within 5' on your battlefields. Take that, Imps! 😄
More seriously though it really does just highlight the things that Rangers do differently; ranged Rangers are great against mobs and fantastic against hordes, while melee Rangers can be as well depending upon the sub-class and other choices you make. Meanwhile they both more than pull their weight against a single extra tough enemy.
But as usual these threads get dragged down to the usual nonsense where "power-gamers" go out of their way to cripple themselves to optimise for specific combat scenarios, forgetting that their DM could throw absolutely anything at them. Thing is though, being able to do 1,000 damage in a single hit is no use to anyone if you're fighting a million bats; in actual varied campaigns raw damage matters less than versatility, so you really do have to wonder whether any of the "power-gamers" actually play, because being really good at one thing and one thing only is no good when you can't do it.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
Yeah!
At level 17 using a 5th level spell slot:
Paladin (with long sword and smite) does an average of 59 damage [(4.5 + 4.5 + 2 + 5)*2 + 6d8]. That is really good! A great sword would be 62 damage!!!
A hunter ranger (long bow, colossus slayer, and hail of thorns at two targets) does an average of 64.75 damage [(4.5 + 5)*2 + 4.5 + (5d10)*2], assuming a 50% save against the ranger's spell DC for the hail of thorns damage.
A beast master ranger (long bow, wolf, and hail of thorns at two targets) does an average of 76.75 damage [(2d4 + 2 + 6)*2 + (4.5 + 5) + (5d10)*2], assuming a 50% save against the ranger's spell DC for the hail of thorns damage.
Keep in mind that [spell]Hail of Thorns[spell] goes to 6d10 with a 5th level slot.
You should have notated (don't want people to think that you aren't including Improved Divine Smite by only reading half the post or glossing over stuff ;) that the 4.5 + 4.5 for the Paladin was the longsword plus improved Divine Smite, followed by 2 for dueling and 5 for strength (16) * 2 for extra attack and only 5d8 Smite damage unless it's against an undead to 6d8. (32+ 24.5 or 28= 56.5 or 60. Going with the 2d6 weapon does add 1.5 per attack, but GWFS is only 1.33 instead of 2 for dueling so 62-63ish is about right. Also, Colossus Slayer and Horde Breaker are a wash when discussing Hail of Thorns, but I understand why you went that way (it is the power gamer option after all).
In short, it's just as we've been saying to the naysayers that Ranger isn't underpowered overall. The single target damage might be lacking in power build components and there might be more risk reward involved with some of the builds than with Fighter or Paladin but the entire chassis is comparable and shines quite well next to either class. If the class doesn't do what you want, that doesn't mean that it's underpowered, just that it doesn't do what you want or at least not how you want.
It can impact their ability to put up competitive damage numbers, but the point is Paladins have a means of bypassing resistance and immunity to nonmagical weapon attacks. Rangers simply don't.
Ah. I see. I misunderstood the point.
Luckily (the glass half full person that I am!), as has been pointed out by our pro-paladin friends of late, less of a ranger’s damage output comes from directly from their weapon compared to a fighter (who has zero ways of bypassing magic resistances) or paladin. And...
https://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/08/30/magic-resistance-against-physical-damage/amp/
https://www.sageadvice.eu/2018/03/26/does-any-piercing-bludgeoning-or-slashing-damage-from-spells-count-as-magical-in-nature/amp/
Paladin are great! Super powerful! Also, regulated to the front lines like 99% of time. If I was a ranger in a party with a paladin, I’d want the paladin to have aura and smites too. LOL!
For some reason, people keep talking about things being “underpowered” or (to a lesser extent) “overpowered”. 1, playtesting exitst and if you want to give feedback give it directly, and 2, nothing is so broken that playing it would be bad. D&D is a role-playing game. Sometimes, I wonder if people forget that.
All hail the great and mighty platypus.
Resisting is simply standing in front of the tide and pushing at it. Even if you endure at first, you will eventually break down. Adapting, by contrast, is turning into a fish.
-me
Rangers are not underpowered. They’re just exploration-oriented.
My homebrew setting: https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/d-d-beyond-general/story-lore/94809-wakai-a-setting-inspired-by-japanese-folklore-and
This account is kinda old and I haven’t used it in a while
I’ll bet a lot of the folks in this thread, including myself, agree with you whole heartedly. However you touched ever so lightly on the root of the disagreement on this thread. Are rangers underpowered? They aren’t.
Of course.
All hail the great and mighty platypus.
Resisting is simply standing in front of the tide and pushing at it. Even if you endure at first, you will eventually break down. Adapting, by contrast, is turning into a fish.
-me
Rangers are not underpowered. They’re just exploration-oriented.
My homebrew setting: https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/d-d-beyond-general/story-lore/94809-wakai-a-setting-inspired-by-japanese-folklore-and
This account is kinda old and I haven’t used it in a while
I'll echo sfPanzer's sentiment. The biggest problem is that there's too much competition for the Bonus Action and Concentration resource for the Ranger.
The Ranger performs pretty well, all said and done in my experience at the tables. Do they do as much damage as other classes? No, but that's not to say the Ranger is bad.
Almost no one does as much damage as Paladins anyhow, we don't say everyone not hitting Paladin damage output numbers are pointless. It's just that the class feels frustrating to play because you can't use all the features without gating off a tremendous amount of other features.
all the classes are underpowered! (when compared to CR 57 monsters)
I am an average mathematics enjoyer.
>Extended Signature<
And CR 57 monsters don’t exist, and they are underpowered compared to CR 73 monsters, which also don’t exist.
All hail the great and mighty platypus.
Resisting is simply standing in front of the tide and pushing at it. Even if you endure at first, you will eventually break down. Adapting, by contrast, is turning into a fish.
-me
Rangers are not underpowered. They’re just exploration-oriented.
My homebrew setting: https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/d-d-beyond-general/story-lore/94809-wakai-a-setting-inspired-by-japanese-folklore-and
This account is kinda old and I haven’t used it in a while
cr 57 monsters exist now:
Flyby. Tiamat doesn't provoke opportunity attacks when it flies out of an enemy's reach. additionally, Tiamat's dexterity is 14 instead of 12 while flying.
Limited Magic immunity. Tiamat is unaffected by all spells that are 6th level or lower, unless she wishes to be. she also has an advantage on saving throws against magical effects, and has resistance to all damage dealt by spells of level 7 or lower.
Legendary Resistance (7/Day). If Tiamat fails a saving throw, she can choose to succeed instead.
Magic Weapons. Tiamat’s weapon attacks are magical.
Regeneration. If Tiamat has at least 1 hit point, she regains 25 hit points, for each head she has remaining, at the start of her turn.
Discorporation. When Tiamat drops to 0 hit points or dies, her body is destroyed but her essence travels back to her domain in the Nine Hells, and she is unable to take physical form for a time.
Multiple Heads. Tiamat has five heads. While it has more than one head, she has advantage on saving throws against being blinded, charmed, deafened, frightened, stunned, and knocked unconscious.
Whenever Tiamat takes 250 or more damage in a single turn, one of her heads dies. If all her heads die, she dies.
Elemental Aura. Tiamat has an aura of nearly invisible crackling elemental power. the aura extends 40 feet around her in all directions. when a creature ends its turn in the aura, or enters it for the first time, they must make a constitution saving throw, taking 36 (8d8) damage on a failed save, or half as much on a successful one. the damage type is either fire, cold, lightning, poison, or acid damage. (Tiamat's choice).
Innate Spellcasting. Tiamat’s innate spellcasting ability is charisma. (spell save DC 32). It can innately cast the following spells, requiring no components:
at will: fire bolt (25th level: 5d10), frostbite (25th level: 5d6), shocking grasp (25th level: 5d8), acid splash (25th level: 5d6), poison spray (25th level: 5d12), chromatic orb (1st level slot).
5/day each: divine word (7th level slot), Infernal Calling (6th level slot), inflict wounds(2nd level slot).
3/day each: darkness (2nd level slot), immolation (5th level slot), destructive wave (5th level slot, necrotic damage only.), ice storm (4th level slot), storm sphere (4th level slot), ray of sickness (4th level slot), melf's acid arrow (3rd level slot).
1/day each: power word kill (9th level slot), blade of disaster (9th level slot), foresight(9th level slot).
Stats. The D&D Beyond monster homebrew-er does not let you increase stats beyond 30. because of that, this tells you Tiamat's actual stats. STR: 38 | DEX: 12, | CON: 40 | INT: 28 | WIS: 30 | CHA: 36.
CR. The D&D Beyond monster homebrew-er does not let you increase CR above 30, so this tells you Tiamat's actual CR. it is 57.
Size: D&D Beyond monster homebrew-er does not let you increase size above gargantuan, so this tells you Tiamat's actual size. it is colossal. colossal monsters range from 50 by 50 feet to 100000 by 100000 feet.
Proficiency Bonus. The D&D Beyond monster homebrew-er does not let you choose the monster's proficiency bonus, so this tells you Tiamat's actual proficiency bonus. it is +12. and thus, Tiamat's saves are actually: STR: +26 | DEX: +13 | CON: +27 | INT: +21 | WIS: +22 | CHA: +25.
MultiAttack. Tiamat makes 2 claw attacks, a number of bite attacks equal to the number of heads she has left, each with a different head, either a wing or tail attacks, uses 1 of her presences, and casts a spell if she has 200 or less hp left.
Claw. Melee Weapon Attack: +26 to hit, reach 15 ft., 1 target. Hit: 40 (4d12 + 14) slashing damage, and the target takes an additional 14 (4d6) damage. the damage type is either fire, cold, lightning, acid, or poison. (her choice).
Bite (White Head). Melee Weapon Attack: +26 to hit, reach 10 ft., 1 target. Hit: 52 (11d6+14) piercing damage, and the target must make a DC 32 constitution saving throw. on a failed save, the target takes an additional 13 (3d8) cold damage, and they have a disadvantage on their next attack roll.
Bite (Green Head). Melee Weapon Attack: +26 to hit, reach 10 ft., 1 target. Hit: 52 (11d6+14) piercing damage, and the target must make a DC 32 constitution saving throw. on a failed save, the target takes an additional 10 (3d6) poison damage, and they are poisoned fir a minute. they target may repeat the save on each of there turns, ending the effect on a success.
Bite (Red Head). Melee Weapon Attack: +26 to hit, reach 10 ft., 1 target. Hit: 52 (11d6+14) piercing damage, and the target must make a DC 32 constitution saving throw. on a failed save, the target takes an additional 17 (5d6) fire damage.
Bite (Blue Head). Melee Weapon Attack: +26 to hit, reach 10 ft., 1 target. Hit: 52 (11d6+14) piercing damage, and the target must make a DC 32 constitution saving throw. on a failed save, the target takes an additional 16 (3d10) lightning damage.
Bite (Black Head). Melee Weapon Attack: +26 to hit, reach 10 ft., 1 target. Hit: 52 (11d6+14) piercing damage, and the target must make a DC 32 constitution saving throw. on a failed save, the target takes an additional 7 (3d4) acid damage, and they take an additional 5 (2d4) acid damage on the start of each of their turns. they may repeat the saving throw on each of their turns, ending the effect on a success.
Tail. Melee Weapon Attack: +26 to hit, reach 20 ft., 1 target. Hit: 27 (3d8+14) bludgeoning damage.
Wing Attack. all creatures in a 100 by 15 foot line, must succeed a DC 33 strength saving throw, or take 13 (3d8) bludgeoning damage, and be pushed back 15 feet.
Frightful Presence. Each creature of Tiamat’s choice that is within 240 feet of Tiamat and aware of her must succeed on a DC 32 Wisdom saving throw or become frightened for 1 minute. A creature can repeat the saving throw at the end of each of its turns, ending the effect on itself on a success. If a creature’s saving throw is successful or the effect ends for it, the creature is immune to Tiamat’s Frightful Presence for the next 24 hours.
Celestial Presence (recharge 6). Each creature of Tiamat’s choice that is within 240 feet of Tiamat and aware of her must succeed on a DC 32 Wisdom saving throw or take 11 (2d10) radiant damage, and be stunned for 1 round.
Demonic Presence (recharge 5-6). Each creature of Tiamat’s choice that is within 240 feet of Tiamat and aware of her must succeed on a DC constitution Wisdom saving throw or take 14 (4d6) necrotic damage, and have bestow curse cast on them, without requiring concentration.
Primordial Presence (recharge 5-6). Each creature of Tiamat’s choice that is within 240 feet of Tiamat and aware of her must succeed on a DC 33 constitution saving throw, or take 14 (4d6) damage. the damage type is either fire, lightning, cold, acid, or poison. (her choice.) Tiamat than gains 10 (3d6) temporary hit points.
Tiamat can take 7 legendary actions, choosing from the options below. Only one legendary action option can be used at a time and only at the end of another creature’s turn. Tiamat regains spent legendary actions at the start of her turn.
Tiamat’s legendary action options are associated with her five dragon heads (a bite and a breath weapon for each). Once Tiamat chooses a legendary action option for one of her heads, she can’t choose another one associated with that head until the start of her next turn.
Wing Attack (Costs 1 Action). Tiamat uses her Wing Attack
Tail (Costs 1 Action). Tiamat uses her Tail Attack
Bite (Costs 2 Actions). Tiamat uses one of her bite attacks.
Black Dragon Head: Acid Breath (Costs 4 Actions). Tiamat breathes acid in a 400-foot line that is 20 feet wide. Each creature in that line must make a DC 32 Dexterity saving throw, taking 87 (35d4) acid damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one. if the target failed the save, than they take 15 (6d4) damage at the start of each of their turns for a minute. they may repeat the save on each of their turns, ending the effect on a success.
Blue Dragon Head: Lightning Breath (Costs 4 Actions). Tiamat breathes lightning in a 400-foot line that is 20 feet wide. Each creature in that line must make a DC 27 Dexterity saving throw, taking 176 (32d10) lightning damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one.
Green Dragon Head: Poison Breath (Costs 4 Actions). Tiamat breathes poisonous gas in a 250-foot cone. Each creature in that area must make a DC 27 Constitution saving throw, taking 150 (43d6) poison damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one. if they failed the save, they are poisoned for a minute. on each of their turns, they may repeat the save, ending the effect on a success.
Red Dragon Head: Fire Breath (Costs 4 Actions). Tiamat breathes fire in a 250-foot cone. Each creature in that area must make a DC 27 Dexterity saving throw, taking 182 (52d6) fire damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one.
White Dragon Head: Cold Breath (Costs 4 Actions). Tiamat breathes an icy blast in a 250-foot cone. Each creature in that area must make a DC 27 Dexterity saving throw, taking 144 (32d8) cold damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one. either way, all creatures hit by the blast have their speed reduced by 20 (to a minimum of 0), and a disadvantage on all dice rolls on until the end of Tiamat's next turn.
but good piont, they are also underpowered compared to CR 73 monster too :) time to homebrew some of those
I am an average mathematics enjoyer.
>Extended Signature<
LOL!
I find rangers do as much damage as other classes just fine.
Paladins and fighters put out good consistent single target damage with big controlled spike damage through action surge and smites, with the paladin being 100% confined to melee combat.
Rogues and barbarians put out great consistent single target damage with uncontrolled spikes through critical hits, with the barbarian being 100% confined to melee combat.
Ranger keeps up with everyone in damage, across the board, in all ways, except for big single target damage spikes, controlled or uncontrolled. Rangers can be ranged or melee combatants. Ranger get their big damage from fighting lots of enemies at the same time and from control through the use of their spells. The other thing that people forget is rangers get their main damage boosts form their magic and subclass choice, where the other martials get their damage boosts baked into their core base class. Yes, some of the subclasses for other classes get some damage boosts, but not in as dependent a way as the ranger. Instead of comparing a base class to a base class, we need to compare subclass to subclass, with the hunter being the obvious choice if comparing just raw damage output.
Frank you killed it with that summation. Very concise and informative. Also killer username. Really firing on all cylinders
I agree that the Ranger does just fine when it comes to keeping up in combat. The class definitely has a power vacuum from levels 6-10 so that's rough, but I think more than anything it suffers from some really bad optics. It's cousin class, the Paladin, which has the same skeleton, is a darling of the 5e community and delivers flashy damage and rock solid defenses at the same time. These are crowd pleasing qualities. It's hard not to compare what the Ranger gets in the same places. BUT, this is mostly confirmation bias. People don't remember the sessions where they dealt 10ish damage with every attack and never had any difficulty finding a way to get their attacks in. They do remember those huge damage spikes from a crit-smite, though. In the end, it mostly evens out, and I've found the ranger to be a super impressive contributor when it comes to consistency. Not in the way that the ranger does the same thing every time, but that the ranger will always find something to do and be a solid contributor from round 1 of combat.
The ranger's versatility is an understated strength. It just doesn't get the love it deserves because so many people love feeling like gods with their favorite weapon. In my last campaign the party's gloomstalker was my favorite teammate. In a party of a land (grassland) druid, diviner wizard (me), gloomstalker ranger, conquest paladin and swords bard, he was the glue of the team (much more than the bard). Switching from tank to ranged whenever needed, he just always brought it. He always filled in the gaps and was ready to perform whatever role we needed most. Goodberry is a great piece of the ranger kit that makes the whole team more survivable. Cast it at the beginning of the day and hand 2+ out to everyone in the group. Now everyone has a couple uses of an improved spare the dying that don't take up your actions. Nothing the ranger does is flashy, but it brings a lot of little things to the table, and in the end, the sum of the parts is a satisfyingly powerful class.
The ranger is the best extra attack martial at doing things other than killing. When you try to play to that side of the ranger and have a DM that supports you, things get really cool. Rangers aren't generally dedicated warriors in the way that a paladin under oath or fighter serving in an army is. They can be hunter/trappers, bounty hunters, guides, scouts, hermits, consummate outdoorsman, etc. The more you play to that side of the ranger, the more satisfying the experience becomes and the more concerns of power fade away.
very interesting thread. I have started to look into rangers because of all of the hate against them. I never liked rangers because their powers were always terrain based. (errata seems to fix that mainly) the more I look into ranger the more I am starting to like it. rangers originally had some major design flaws but has evolved well past those I think the only issue seems to be the stereo type remaining. I am an older player who used to play back in 3.0/3.5 era. The ranger has always had a weird niche but I like where the ranger has gone in fifth edition. tasha's did some major upgrades and errata on some wording to the original players hand book have made rangers a solid choice I think.
the main problem that rangers have is that they are kinda all rounders. they make good archers, have some magic, can heal, great travelers, can sneak, decent melee and have survival skills. Tasha's updates to the class are good because they are not terrain dependent and give some nice new spell options to the ranger. they are now a much more rounded class that has a lot less GM dependency and have a chance for great roll playing.
many classes can be OP in certain situations. in my opinion true OP rarely happens. most of these OP moments are situational and a smart DM can stop them from happening all of the time. The ranger is not OP so far as I have seen. I will hopefully be seeing if this is true very soon but I never felt like the ranger is OP when I have played with people who play rangers... A**holes... yes but that is true of most backliners I have seen play. the battle was sooo boring I didn't even get hit... mean while the fighter/barbarian has super low HP and has done everything in his/her power to stop the enemy from reaching the second line. (sorry a little bit of ranting). But I am warming up to the versatility of the ranger
LOL!
“Frank you killed it with that summation. Very concise and informative. Also killer username. Really firing on all cylinders“
HeironymusZot, sarcasm?
I don’t think it’s sarcasm.
All hail the great and mighty platypus.
Resisting is simply standing in front of the tide and pushing at it. Even if you endure at first, you will eventually break down. Adapting, by contrast, is turning into a fish.
-me
Rangers are not underpowered. They’re just exploration-oriented.
My homebrew setting: https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/d-d-beyond-general/story-lore/94809-wakai-a-setting-inspired-by-japanese-folklore-and
This account is kinda old and I haven’t used it in a while
Definitely not my dude. I think that post of yours was great. Super informative, yet concise. It's a super helpful breakdown of the basic natures of the martial classes AND makes a case for why the ranger fits right in. I loved it.
And I love your username