Rangers have more out of combat (social and exploration) use in their class abilities, subclass abilities, and spells then paladins do.
The vast majority of rangers really don't have social abilities beyond just a raw WIS + Insight check, just as paladins generally lack more than a CHA + social skill check. I can only think of one ranger subclass that offers social ability (Fey Wanderer), while I can think of one paladin subclasses that intimidates people and one that boosts persuasion checks. Rangers have lots of spells for socially interacting with animals but no humanoids, but paladins do have spells like Command and Zone of Truth for humanoid interaction instead of animals.
While I completely agree that rangers do, indeed, beat out paladins when it comes to exploration ability, trying to claim they have more social stuff isn't really accurate. I suppose you could try and put the new Cunning on a social skill, but I imagine most rangers are taking stealth, perception or survival.
Rangers have more out of combat (social and exploration) use in their class abilities, subclass abilities, and spells then paladins do.
The vast majority of rangers really don't have social abilities beyond just a raw WIS + Insight check, just as paladins generally lack more than a CHA + social skill check. I can only think of one ranger subclass that offers social ability (Fey Wanderer), while I can think of one paladin subclasses that intimidates people and one that boosts persuasion checks. Rangers have lots of spells for socially interacting with animals but no humanoids, but paladins do have spells like Command and Zone of Truth for humanoid interaction instead of animals.
Paladins can be proficient in all social skills with the right background choice (there are three that allow for this) and three of them benefit from high Cha. Paladins are proficient in Wisdom saves (and improve their save mods at higher level), which is pretty much the one save that matters for social situations. Paladins have the better spell selection for social situations. I don't think the Ranger's likely better Insight and the social aspects of Favored Enemy (languages, pretty much) are even close to equal.
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Rangers have more out of combat (social and exploration) use in their class abilities, subclass abilities, and spells then paladins do.
Mostly exploration. Favored enemy and natural explorer can both be just as powerful as any other class- or much, much more powerful if you’re playing with a lot of exploration. If you’re playing Tomb of Annihilation, you’re going to need a ranger when exploring the jungles of Chult. And if rangers are underpowered, your campaign doesn’t have enough wilderness exploration.
Resisting is simply standing in front of the tide and pushing at it. Even if you endure at first, you will eventually break down. Adapting, by contrast, is turning into a fish.
-me
Rangers are not underpowered. They’re just exploration-oriented.
In general, I've found that you really only need one social skill (either persuasion or intimidate, bluff is more for people that need to be sneaky, so its very rare paladins use it). And most social skills are opposed by other skills (usually insight, sometimes opposed persuasion/intimidate checks), rather than saves, I've found.
Do people often end up using saves against skill use?
Not really. Unless spells are being used in social situations. Even a lot of spells use skills to "see through them", investigation, etc.
For rangers, I'll admit as many rangers dump charisma as paladins do wisdom and dexterity, but backgrounds allows anyone to do anything to a high degree, and speak with animals and beast sense should not be underestimated for urban/social situations.
Oh, I agree that being able to speak with animals is a great social and exploration ability. Though, not sure if I'd call Beast Sense a social skill - its more spying, which I consider an exploration ability, but I suppose that's just semantics when all is said and done.
Saves are for spells but also abilities; a number of creatures have actions that can impose the Charmed condition, for instance. There are Enchantment or Illusion effects that allow for a Cha or Int save rather than Wis, but those normally won't come up outside outright combat (and a paladin likely isn't worse off vs Int than a ranger, and considerably better vs Cha).
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...class balance isn't determined by any one aspect of the class, and non-combat aspects are hard to quantify to begin with.
This hits the proverbial nail on the head. Combat is hard-coded, with an entire chapter on just how to run it. But the other two pillars don't. Heck, I don't think those pillars are even named until they appear in the DMG.
In economics, there are tangible goods, which are easily quantifiable, and intangible goods, which aren't. The non-combat features, or at least the features which don't have an obvious impact on combat, are harder to quantify. It's basically an exaggerated case of YMMV; which is technically true for all classes. But some people can't wrap their head around the concept, so they dump on it.
Rangers definitely don't have more social skills than the charisma aligned class. Let's stick to the base classes, because subclasses are used to tweak and add to a class's role all the time. If anything, the ranger needing a specific subclass (fey wanderer) to boost social skills speaks to its general lack of abilities in that area as a base class.
Ranger class abilities effect tracking and exploration. The skill checks that get boosted are wisdom and intelligence. The only social skill in there is insight, which is an awesome skill, but a face it does not make on its own. And that is to only a certain subsection of creatures. The ranger can't step into any situation and be the diplomat. Their spells allow them to socialize with animals, which is more of an exploration ability than anything else. Furthermore, wisdom is their secondary stat and have many skills vying for their attention. The ranger generally has to make sacrifices to be better in social situations.
Paladin class abilities don't effect social skills, but they care about charisma and don't have anything else skill-wise to compete with taking a few. They lose nothing by fleshing out their skills with persuasion + intimidation/deception. They have command and zone of truth on their spell list to help approach social situations in different ways. While the paladin doesn't match a bard, warlock or rogue they can still make quite the effective face.
I don't think anyone has mentioned Divine Sense, a 1st level Paladin ability. For Reference:
Until the end of your next turn, you know the location of any celestial, fiend, or undead within 60 feet of you that is not behind total cover. You know the type (celestial, fiend, or undead) of any being whose presence you sense, but not its identity (the vampire Count Strahd von Zarovich, for instance).
Let's compare that to Primeval Awareness, a 3rd level Ranger ability
you can use your action and expend one ranger spell slot to focus your awareness on the region around you. For 1 minute per level of the spell slot you expend, you can sense whether the following types of creatures are present within 1 mile of you (or within up to 6 miles if you are in your favored terrain): aberrations, celestials, dragons, elementals, fey, fiends, and undead. This feature doesn’t reveal the creatures’ location or number.
Greater range and duration mean nothing when you have no idea where anyone is.
Divine Sense doesn't use up spell slots (it can be used charisma mod + 1 times per day) and gives the exact location of the creatures. It's like primeval awareness through the lens of favored enemy. But it shows you exactly where things are. This is an exploration ability the paladin gets at level 1 that is effective when used, costs no spell slots, and comes alongside a generically more powerful ability in Lay on Hands.
The paladin also gets a plethora of Detect X spells which can be quite good when exploring.
I generally think that paladins have their lack of versatility greatly exaggerated when it comes to defending the Ranger. Paladin's make great diplomats, leaders, healers and can even help with exploration. The paladin is not some meat head class and can be played with a lot of cleverness and guile, with tools to back it up. If you've ever seen a paladin use lay on hands to ease a tense situation you'll know what I'm talking about.
This all stems from how easy it is to give your character an out of combat side role. You don't need a majority of your class abilities to help with out of combat to feel accomplished at it. The right skill proficiencies combined with expertise and/or utility spells is all a character needs to build versatility in how they approach situations. Did the designer's misjudge how important the non combat pillars would be to gameplay, sure, but I don't think that's the problem here. The problem is even when your campaign stresses social and exploration, what the Ranger gets is not necessary to perform in a fun and satisfying way.
Is the ranger underpowered? I don't think so. It is not among the more powerful classes, but it manages just fine. That has more to do with 5e's flattened power curve than anything else. It doesn't mean aspects of the class are free from being poorly designed. My complaint about the ranger isn't about overall power, it's about the feel bads that stem from underpowered and poorly designed exploration abilities. It feels bad when a couple of your own spells make your class abilities feel obsolete (looking at you pass without trace and goodberry). It feels even worse when any class can feel like they're stepping on your toes because they have proficiencies in the same skills but can afford to have a higher wisdom/intelligence. Forget it when another character has expertise or spells to add to the equation. It feels awful when you're replaced as a scout by the caster's familiar.
Nothing the ranger gets for exploration is so good as to be excited about having it over expertise or utility spells. Certainly not exciting enough to take up so much of the class's real estate. And to be clear, I'm not advocating for replacing exploration abilities with combat abilities. I love non combat abilities. Just not ones with so many restrictions that their use case drops drastically.
I've been ready for the ranger's terrain/enemy specificity to go the way of the dodo bird for quite some time now. Like how the rogue used to cling to lockpicking as a class specific niche. Any character should be able to have extra life experience against a type of enemy, or spent enough time in a terrain to know it better. I wouldn't mind seeing backgrounds and/or feats that work similarly to NE and FE. You already see that with Outlander providing foraging abilities. Tasha's ranger options aren't perfect, but go a long way to bringing the ranger in line with the rogue's 5e design philosophy. Instead of being cornered into niche aspects of skill use, have the classes designed to be able to add unique qualities to a wide range of skill use.
I don't believe Divine Sense and Primal awareness are comparable. They are similar effect abilities but have vastly different uses. 60 Ft range is for in combat helping prevent surprise Or find the hidden monster. A ranger in a similar situation would be trying to use his investigation or perception to achieve the same effect OR locate Creature at later levels.
1-6 miles is for when you need to prepare. It is not limited to favored enemy you get a yes or no on every listed creature type. Favored terrain extends the range But even then the wording is "up to" which may allow for fine tuning. It might buy you hours or possibly even a long rest. Knowing the night before that you don't need to worry about a specific type could help Other classes know what spells they need to prepare. It would let the fighter know if its a good idea to buy holy water or acid or other items before you actually jump in. if its the end of the day you are being rewarded for having an extra slot. Rangers have a couple of these "useful tomorrow" spells (several other classed do as well but rarely get used) Good berry and sending are the only ones that I can tell get common use in the community.
As discussed earlier the real question might not be the comparison but instead you should be asking " how is this useful?" or " What situations is this good at what a is it bad at?" Sometimes comparisons are needed but when you do there are a lot of extra factors involved and many times people skip out on some details to create a situation that helps confirm their already established feeling. Rangers are not for everyone but the people who do like the PHB abilities have justifiable reason to do so.
Rangers have more out of combat (social and exploration) use in their class abilities, subclass abilities, and spells then paladins do.
Mostly exploration. Favored enemy and natural explorer can both be just as powerful as any other class- or much, much more powerful if you’re playing with a lot of exploration. If you’re playing Tomb of Annihilation, you’re going to need a ranger when exploring the jungles of Chult. And if rangers are underpowered, your campaign doesn’t have enough wilderness exploration.
with the caveat that natural explorer only works in certain terrain, making an beast totem barbatian (particularly elk) arguably just as useful if you regularly change terrain, especially since barbarians get proficiency in constiution saving throws that are used constantly during exploration for everything from going without food and water to surviving extreme temperatures
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i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
Rangers have more out of combat (social and exploration) use in their class abilities, subclass abilities, and spells then paladins do.
Mostly exploration. Favored enemy and natural explorer can both be just as powerful as any other class- or much, much more powerful if you’re playing with a lot of exploration. If you’re playing Tomb of Annihilation, you’re going to need a ranger when exploring the jungles of Chult. And if rangers are underpowered, your campaign doesn’t have enough wilderness exploration.
with the caveat that natural explorer only works in certain terrain, making an beast totem barbatian (particularly elk) arguably just as useful if you regularly change terrain, especially since barbarians get proficiency in constiution saving throws that are used constantly during exploration for everything from going without food and water to surviving extreme temperatures
It takes a highly specific barbarian build to match most of the Ranger FT-FE benefits. Not every barbarian (let alone other totem choices) will make those choices. Many classes have the ability to cover multiple roles but then you loose out on other options. The existence of the possibility of a barbarian that can do the same things as a ranger dose not make the ranger abilities any less important. That the same ranger should be using other checks to avoid making those called out constitution saving throws. Noticing the problem before hand so they can prepare via equipment or other bypass methods.
Hmmmm..... The more I look at it.... The less I'm liking the new stuff, to be honest. I understand that highly situational picks need to go... but the new stuff is just so bland and uninspiring.
Only one expertise pick, +5 movement and climbing/swimming speed, and some thp just feels boring to me. And it's replacing at least three expertise skills with a host of other benefits. Granted- having to pick terrain was bad, but I don't feel inspired.
Favored Foe is 2-3 extra damage a turn... 2-3 times a day. Scales very slowly. Really lackluster and has Concentration issues. Technically better than FE, I suppose. But I can't imagine it seeing use once we start getting higher in levels.
Nature's Veil is okay, I guess - its basically a limited use Vanish. At least it's an ability you're likely to eventually see. But having to wait til lvl 10 to get a weaker Cunning Action feels bad instead of strong. Most lvl 10 stuff is better.
Primal Awareness is admittedly gold and highly approved.
Well, I agree with the lazy part, but the spells given are some of my favorite ranger spells, so I'm more than willing to turn a blind eye. I like the idea these abilities are core Ranger that everyone gets.
Honestly, I would probably preferred the same approach with Favored Enemy/Foe. Get Hunter's Mark for, can apply it to one creature you are tracking irregardless of distance, one free cast, advantage on information about target. As you rise in level, the advantages you get from marking increases as well.
Natural Explorer is probably the only one I don't want to mimic spells, but should still be focused on stealth, perception and survival bonuses. Just.... not copy Cunning Action, nor render a wood elf with elven boots/cloak redundant.
Divine sense lasts for 6 seconds, has a range of 60 feet (1/88th of a mile), and is completely rendered inert by anything like a pane of glass or large curtains.
Finding things is already what ranger’s do. The power of primeval awareness, the usefulness of it, is knowing what kind of unnatural creature types AREN’T within the area. Some might be some of your favored enemies (advantage on tracking and knowledge checks about them and their habits). You might be in one of your favored terrains (expertise in survival, perception, and maybe nature). A ranger can use their beast companion to help cover large areas over a short period of time using the beast’s speed and elevated (especially with the ranger’s proficiency bonus boost) perception and stealth skills. Worst case scenario, ranger’s have proficiency in these skills and have access to spells like speak with animals, beast sense, locate object, locate animals and plants, and conjure animals to further this finding of creatures and things. A ranger using primeval awareness riding a giant eagle it conjured can cover over 8 miles in an hour.
Cracking off primeval awareness in a city is very helpful in many cases too. So is pass without a trace, as the duration is more in line with stealth situations in an urban environment. The small confines of cities, dungeons, ruins, caves, and the like, really benefit from the ranger’s spellcasting toolkit. Spike growth, hail of thorns, lightning arrow, fog cloud, conjure animals, all become more effective in tight spaces. Dealing damage, controlling the fight, meat shields, knocking prone, grappling, shoving, hiding, and escaping are all great in non-natural environments. Rangers can speak with birds, rats, cats, and crows. See and hear through their senses. They can cast hunter’s mark on a target from a distance with little to no awareness of it by the target and then follow it to it’s lair or other destination.
Rangers can create food, heal wounds, cure common status effects, breath under water, and communicate with trees and other plants.
Rangers can’t smite (paladins). Rangers don’t have permanent expertise in two skills (rogues). Rangers don’t get an automatic third attack at level 11 (fighters) And rangers are only half casters (druids). Rangers don’t have all of anything. But rangers do have a lot of a lot.
Rangers can’t smite (paladins). Rangers don’t have permanent expertise in two skills (rogues). Rangers don’t get an automatic third attack at level 11 (fighters) And rangers are only half casters (druids). Rangers don’t have all of anything. But rangers do have a lot of a lot.
on the third attack: all the good ranger subclasses that do not suck in my oppinion get a feature much equivalent to an thrid attack per turn with the hunter's AoE attacks, the beast master ranger getting to have their pet do two attacks followed by 1 attack of their own for a total of 3 and the horizon walker getting to target 3 different creatures when taking the attack action and teleport between each of their attack for a lot of battlefield mobillity. Yes this is probably what you meant with no automatic third attack, they do not get
Dealing damage, controlling the fight, meat shields, knocking prone, grappling, shoving, hiding, and escaping are all great in non-natural environments. Rangers can speak with birds, rats, cats, and crows. See and hear through their senses.
all this talk of knocking people prone, grappling, shoving etc is making me more and more pissed that we did not get access to unarmed fighting as a fighting style, rangers are supposed to have an deep appreciation for nature, and yet i am forced to use the dirty and cruel weapons of civilisation when instead i could be using my all-natural, home-grown and 100% organic fists to beat up the forces of evil like the fighter can and LIKE NATURE INTENDED IT TO BE, it would fit so well thematically with the ranger yet also be an deviation from the archetypal ranger and would synnergize really well with canny as it can give you expertise in athletics as that really does benefit shoving and grappling things
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The vast majority of rangers really don't have social abilities beyond just a raw WIS + Insight check, just as paladins generally lack more than a CHA + social skill check. I can only think of one ranger subclass that offers social ability (Fey Wanderer), while I can think of one paladin subclasses that intimidates people and one that boosts persuasion checks. Rangers have lots of spells for socially interacting with animals but no humanoids, but paladins do have spells like Command and Zone of Truth for humanoid interaction instead of animals.
While I completely agree that rangers do, indeed, beat out paladins when it comes to exploration ability, trying to claim they have more social stuff isn't really accurate. I suppose you could try and put the new Cunning on a social skill, but I imagine most rangers are taking stealth, perception or survival.
Paladins can be proficient in all social skills with the right background choice (there are three that allow for this) and three of them benefit from high Cha. Paladins are proficient in Wisdom saves (and improve their save mods at higher level), which is pretty much the one save that matters for social situations. Paladins have the better spell selection for social situations. I don't think the Ranger's likely better Insight and the social aspects of Favored Enemy (languages, pretty much) are even close to equal.
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Mostly exploration. Favored enemy and natural explorer can both be just as powerful as any other class- or much, much more powerful if you’re playing with a lot of exploration. If you’re playing Tomb of Annihilation, you’re going to need a ranger when exploring the jungles of Chult. And if rangers are underpowered, your campaign doesn’t have enough wilderness exploration.
All hail the great and mighty platypus.
Resisting is simply standing in front of the tide and pushing at it. Even if you endure at first, you will eventually break down. Adapting, by contrast, is turning into a fish.
-me
Rangers are not underpowered. They’re just exploration-oriented.
My homebrew setting: https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/d-d-beyond-general/story-lore/94809-wakai-a-setting-inspired-by-japanese-folklore-and
This account is kinda old and I haven’t used it in a while
In general, I've found that you really only need one social skill (either persuasion or intimidate, bluff is more for people that need to be sneaky, so its very rare paladins use it). And most social skills are opposed by other skills (usually insight, sometimes opposed persuasion/intimidate checks), rather than saves, I've found.
Do people often end up using saves against skill use?
Not really. Unless spells are being used in social situations. Even a lot of spells use skills to "see through them", investigation, etc.
For rangers, I'll admit as many rangers dump charisma as paladins do wisdom and dexterity, but backgrounds allows anyone to do anything to a high degree, and speak with animals and beast sense should not be underestimated for urban/social situations.
Oh, I agree that being able to speak with animals is a great social and exploration ability. Though, not sure if I'd call Beast Sense a social skill - its more spying, which I consider an exploration ability, but I suppose that's just semantics when all is said and done.
Saves are for spells but also abilities; a number of creatures have actions that can impose the Charmed condition, for instance. There are Enchantment or Illusion effects that allow for a Cha or Int save rather than Wis, but those normally won't come up outside outright combat (and a paladin likely isn't worse off vs Int than a ranger, and considerably better vs Cha).
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
This hits the proverbial nail on the head. Combat is hard-coded, with an entire chapter on just how to run it. But the other two pillars don't. Heck, I don't think those pillars are even named until they appear in the DMG.
In economics, there are tangible goods, which are easily quantifiable, and intangible goods, which aren't. The non-combat features, or at least the features which don't have an obvious impact on combat, are harder to quantify. It's basically an exaggerated case of YMMV; which is technically true for all classes. But some people can't wrap their head around the concept, so they dump on it.
Rangers definitely don't have more social skills than the charisma aligned class. Let's stick to the base classes, because subclasses are used to tweak and add to a class's role all the time. If anything, the ranger needing a specific subclass (fey wanderer) to boost social skills speaks to its general lack of abilities in that area as a base class.
Ranger class abilities effect tracking and exploration. The skill checks that get boosted are wisdom and intelligence. The only social skill in there is insight, which is an awesome skill, but a face it does not make on its own. And that is to only a certain subsection of creatures. The ranger can't step into any situation and be the diplomat. Their spells allow them to socialize with animals, which is more of an exploration ability than anything else. Furthermore, wisdom is their secondary stat and have many skills vying for their attention. The ranger generally has to make sacrifices to be better in social situations.
Paladin class abilities don't effect social skills, but they care about charisma and don't have anything else skill-wise to compete with taking a few. They lose nothing by fleshing out their skills with persuasion + intimidation/deception. They have command and zone of truth on their spell list to help approach social situations in different ways. While the paladin doesn't match a bard, warlock or rogue they can still make quite the effective face.
I don't think anyone has mentioned Divine Sense, a 1st level Paladin ability. For Reference:
Let's compare that to Primeval Awareness, a 3rd level Ranger ability
Greater range and duration mean nothing when you have no idea where anyone is.
Divine Sense doesn't use up spell slots (it can be used charisma mod + 1 times per day) and gives the exact location of the creatures. It's like primeval awareness through the lens of favored enemy. But it shows you exactly where things are. This is an exploration ability the paladin gets at level 1 that is effective when used, costs no spell slots, and comes alongside a generically more powerful ability in Lay on Hands.
The paladin also gets a plethora of Detect X spells which can be quite good when exploring.
I generally think that paladins have their lack of versatility greatly exaggerated when it comes to defending the Ranger. Paladin's make great diplomats, leaders, healers and can even help with exploration. The paladin is not some meat head class and can be played with a lot of cleverness and guile, with tools to back it up. If you've ever seen a paladin use lay on hands to ease a tense situation you'll know what I'm talking about.
This all stems from how easy it is to give your character an out of combat side role. You don't need a majority of your class abilities to help with out of combat to feel accomplished at it. The right skill proficiencies combined with expertise and/or utility spells is all a character needs to build versatility in how they approach situations. Did the designer's misjudge how important the non combat pillars would be to gameplay, sure, but I don't think that's the problem here. The problem is even when your campaign stresses social and exploration, what the Ranger gets is not necessary to perform in a fun and satisfying way.
Is the ranger underpowered? I don't think so. It is not among the more powerful classes, but it manages just fine. That has more to do with 5e's flattened power curve than anything else. It doesn't mean aspects of the class are free from being poorly designed. My complaint about the ranger isn't about overall power, it's about the feel bads that stem from underpowered and poorly designed exploration abilities. It feels bad when a couple of your own spells make your class abilities feel obsolete (looking at you pass without trace and goodberry). It feels even worse when any class can feel like they're stepping on your toes because they have proficiencies in the same skills but can afford to have a higher wisdom/intelligence. Forget it when another character has expertise or spells to add to the equation. It feels awful when you're replaced as a scout by the caster's familiar.
Nothing the ranger gets for exploration is so good as to be excited about having it over expertise or utility spells. Certainly not exciting enough to take up so much of the class's real estate. And to be clear, I'm not advocating for replacing exploration abilities with combat abilities. I love non combat abilities. Just not ones with so many restrictions that their use case drops drastically.
I've been ready for the ranger's terrain/enemy specificity to go the way of the dodo bird for quite some time now. Like how the rogue used to cling to lockpicking as a class specific niche. Any character should be able to have extra life experience against a type of enemy, or spent enough time in a terrain to know it better. I wouldn't mind seeing backgrounds and/or feats that work similarly to NE and FE. You already see that with Outlander providing foraging abilities. Tasha's ranger options aren't perfect, but go a long way to bringing the ranger in line with the rogue's 5e design philosophy. Instead of being cornered into niche aspects of skill use, have the classes designed to be able to add unique qualities to a wide range of skill use.
I don't believe Divine Sense and Primal awareness are comparable. They are similar effect abilities but have vastly different uses. 60 Ft range is for in combat helping prevent surprise Or find the hidden monster. A ranger in a similar situation would be trying to use his investigation or perception to achieve the same effect OR locate Creature at later levels.
1-6 miles is for when you need to prepare. It is not limited to favored enemy you get a yes or no on every listed creature type. Favored terrain extends the range But even then the wording is "up to" which may allow for fine tuning. It might buy you hours or possibly even a long rest. Knowing the night before that you don't need to worry about a specific type could help Other classes know what spells they need to prepare. It would let the fighter know if its a good idea to buy holy water or acid or other items before you actually jump in. if its the end of the day you are being rewarded for having an extra slot. Rangers have a couple of these "useful tomorrow" spells (several other classed do as well but rarely get used) Good berry and sending are the only ones that I can tell get common use in the community.
As discussed earlier the real question might not be the comparison but instead you should be asking " how is this useful?" or " What situations is this good at what a is it bad at?" Sometimes comparisons are needed but when you do there are a lot of extra factors involved and many times people skip out on some details to create a situation that helps confirm their already established feeling. Rangers are not for everyone but the people who do like the PHB abilities have justifiable reason to do so.
with the caveat that natural explorer only works in certain terrain, making an beast totem barbatian (particularly elk) arguably just as useful if you regularly change terrain, especially since barbarians get proficiency in constiution saving throws that are used constantly during exploration for everything from going without food and water to surviving extreme temperatures
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
It takes a highly specific barbarian build to match most of the Ranger FT-FE benefits. Not every barbarian (let alone other totem choices) will make those choices. Many classes have the ability to cover multiple roles but then you loose out on other options. The existence of the possibility of a barbarian that can do the same things as a ranger dose not make the ranger abilities any less important. That the same ranger should be using other checks to avoid making those called out constitution saving throws. Noticing the problem before hand so they can prepare via equipment or other bypass methods.
Hmmmm..... The more I look at it.... The less I'm liking the new stuff, to be honest. I understand that highly situational picks need to go... but the new stuff is just so bland and uninspiring.
Only one expertise pick, +5 movement and climbing/swimming speed, and some thp just feels boring to me. And it's replacing at least three expertise skills with a host of other benefits. Granted- having to pick terrain was bad, but I don't feel inspired.
Favored Foe is 2-3 extra damage a turn... 2-3 times a day. Scales very slowly. Really lackluster and has Concentration issues. Technically better than FE, I suppose. But I can't imagine it seeing use once we start getting higher in levels.
Nature's Veil is okay, I guess - its basically a limited use Vanish. At least it's an ability you're likely to eventually see. But having to wait til lvl 10 to get a weaker Cunning Action feels bad instead of strong. Most lvl 10 stuff is better.
Primal Awareness is admittedly gold and highly approved.
Well, I agree with the lazy part, but the spells given are some of my favorite ranger spells, so I'm more than willing to turn a blind eye. I like the idea these abilities are core Ranger that everyone gets.
Honestly, I would probably preferred the same approach with Favored Enemy/Foe. Get Hunter's Mark for, can apply it to one creature you are tracking irregardless of distance, one free cast, advantage on information about target. As you rise in level, the advantages you get from marking increases as well.
Natural Explorer is probably the only one I don't want to mimic spells, but should still be focused on stealth, perception and survival bonuses. Just.... not copy Cunning Action, nor render a wood elf with elven boots/cloak redundant.
Divine sense lasts for 6 seconds, has a range of 60 feet (1/88th of a mile), and is completely rendered inert by anything like a pane of glass or large curtains.
Finding things is already what ranger’s do. The power of primeval awareness, the usefulness of it, is knowing what kind of unnatural creature types AREN’T within the area. Some might be some of your favored enemies (advantage on tracking and knowledge checks about them and their habits). You might be in one of your favored terrains (expertise in survival, perception, and maybe nature). A ranger can use their beast companion to help cover large areas over a short period of time using the beast’s speed and elevated (especially with the ranger’s proficiency bonus boost) perception and stealth skills. Worst case scenario, ranger’s have proficiency in these skills and have access to spells like speak with animals, beast sense, locate object, locate animals and plants, and conjure animals to further this finding of creatures and things. A ranger using primeval awareness riding a giant eagle it conjured can cover over 8 miles in an hour.
Cracking off primeval awareness in a city is very helpful in many cases too. So is pass without a trace, as the duration is more in line with stealth situations in an urban environment. The small confines of cities, dungeons, ruins, caves, and the like, really benefit from the ranger’s spellcasting toolkit. Spike growth, hail of thorns, lightning arrow, fog cloud, conjure animals, all become more effective in tight spaces. Dealing damage, controlling the fight, meat shields, knocking prone, grappling, shoving, hiding, and escaping are all great in non-natural environments. Rangers can speak with birds, rats, cats, and crows. See and hear through their senses. They can cast hunter’s mark on a target from a distance with little to no awareness of it by the target and then follow it to it’s lair or other destination.
Rangers can create food, heal wounds, cure common status effects, breath under water, and communicate with trees and other plants.
Rangers can’t smite (paladins). Rangers don’t have permanent expertise in two skills (rogues). Rangers don’t get an automatic third attack at level 11 (fighters) And rangers are only half casters (druids). Rangers don’t have all of anything. But rangers do have a lot of a lot.
on the third attack: all the good ranger subclasses that do not suck in my oppinion get a feature much equivalent to an thrid attack per turn with the hunter's AoE attacks, the beast master ranger getting to have their pet do two attacks followed by 1 attack of their own for a total of 3 and the horizon walker getting to target 3 different creatures when taking the attack action and teleport between each of their attack for a lot of battlefield mobillity. Yes this is probably what you meant with no automatic third attack, they do not get
all this talk of knocking people prone, grappling, shoving etc is making me more and more pissed that we did not get access to unarmed fighting as a fighting style, rangers are supposed to have an deep appreciation for nature, and yet i am forced to use the dirty and cruel weapons of civilisation when instead i could be using my all-natural, home-grown and 100% organic fists to beat up the forces of evil like the fighter can and LIKE NATURE INTENDED IT TO BE, it would fit so well thematically with the ranger yet also be an deviation from the archetypal ranger and would synnergize really well with canny as it can give you expertise in athletics as that really does benefit shoving and grappling things
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes