All the talk about what a ranger is suppose to be is what hurts the class impression. Look at what is mechanically given and use it to create a pc. Not the other way around. People look at the names of the mechanics or their first impression and make bad assumptions. Too many people limit the class by trying to make it something it isn't or force it into a mental mold. Believe it or not you can build a unarmed fighter with out the Unarmed fighting style. You can pass a con save without proficiency. Just because the word terrain is in the ability title it doesn't mean creatures don't apply. Just because its labeled favored foe doesn't mean it wont work on an ally. Look at the mechanics and figure out how best to use them. Ranger builds require Choice and planning and adaptability. If that's not for you play a different class.
I'm beginning to see a pattern of jumping topics which derails the conversation. Please use separate posts if its an discussion not continuing the discussion on the previous points.
All the talk about what a ranger is suppose to be is what hurts the class impression. Look at what is mechanically given and use it to create a pc. Not the other way around. People look at the names of the mechanics or their first impression and make bad assumptions. Too many people limit the class by trying to make it something it isn't or force it into a mental mold. Believe it or not you can build a unarmed fighter with out the Unarmed fighting style. You can pass a con save without proficiency. Just because the word terrain is in the ability title it doesn't mean creatures don't apply. Just because its labeled favored foe doesn't mean it wont work on an ally. Look at the mechanics and figure out how best to use them. Ranger builds require Choice and planning and adaptability. If that's not for you play a different class.
I'm beginning to see a pattern of jumping topics which derails the conversation. Please use separate posts if its an discussion not continuing the discussion on the previous points.
To add to one of your points, I find changing the name of the ranger ability from favored enemy to favored creature, even if it’s only for me in my head as a player, does quite a lot of good for me thematically and mechanically.
All the talk about what a ranger is suppose to be is what hurts the class impression. Look at what is mechanically given and use it to create a pc. Not the other way around.
And thus, we come to the crux of the distinction between "role" players and "roll" players. Well, that's a bit of an overgeneralization, since most people do fall in the middle than either extreme. They like both stories, and mechanically viable characters that match the story. Make no mistake - the majority of players want the nature-skirmisher ranger, and want mechanics to reflect that story.
And I know its the majority of players, because this was the result of the D&D's team research during the playtest, and their ongoing feedback. We're told this, and I see absolutely zero reason why they would lie about these results, especially when using said results clearly has worked for their sales figures.
All the talk about what a ranger is suppose to be is what hurts the class impression. Look at what is mechanically given and use it to create a pc. Not the other way around. People look at the names of the mechanics or their first impression and make bad assumptions. Too many people limit the class by trying to make it something it isn't or force it into a mental mold. Believe it or not you can build a unarmed fighter with out the Unarmed fighting style. You can pass a con save without proficiency. Just because the word terrain is in the ability title it doesn't mean creatures don't apply. Just because its labeled favored foe doesn't mean it wont work on an ally. Look at the mechanics and figure out how best to use them. Ranger builds require Choice and planning and adaptability. If that's not for you play a different class.
To add to one of your points, I find changing the name of the ranger ability from favored enemy to favored creature, even if it’s only for me in my head as a player, does quite a lot of good for me thematically and mechanically.
yeah like it is a bit of an misnomer, you know a lot about your favored enemy, but you do not get to commit extra-potent hate crimes against them and there is nothing that says you have particular hatred against them or fight them better, it is just you being well studied, an 1st level ranger with canny and favoured enemy can be used to represent a pretty decent proffessor type character with a lot of languages and knowledge (if you happen to have like the sage background and chose history or investigation to have expertise in)
That said most of the examples above do not seem like good examples, yes you can make a fighter without unarmed fighting who still focuses on not using weapons and somewhat get by with the tavern brawler feat, but you will hardly be an effective combatant if you restrict yourself to attacks that deal 1d4 + str damage (or even less if you lack that particular feat) and to shoving and grappling, yes with interception you can still make yourself somewhat helpful in combat and with grappler and shield master plus your various battle master manuvers you can try to squeeze out the most you can out of it but you will not make it far. Yes you can suceed on a constiution saving throw without proficiency, that is why you are rolling for it, but you will have a greater chance of doing so it you do. Yes you can target an creature you are currently fighting alongside but like... why would you? Other than in a situation where they are currently trying to kill you or you are somehow forced to kill them? The feature is not even called "favored terrain" it is called "Natural Explorer", and no that does not nessesarily mean that the feature lets you add twice your proficiecy bonus to perception checks against creatures native to that terrain (like its broad, but not that broad)
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i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
“The feature is not even called "favored terrain" it is called "Natural Explorer", and no that does not nessesarily mean that the feature lets you add twice your proficiecy bonus to perception checks against creatures native to that terrain (like its broad, but not that broad)”
Really?! That is like the entire point of the ability. Mechanically that is the reason why favored enemy awards advantage and natural explorer doubles proficiency. So they can be combined. Why wouldn’t a ranger be a little bit better at perception checks regarding things related to a favored terrain l? Like a terrain of forest and hearing a bear. Like a terrain of swamp and smelling a gas or plant decay. Or survival checks? Tracking an animal or creature from their favored terrain, like a mushroom folk from the underdark but in a dungeon or grasslands. That is the whole idea. It’s already a limited ability compared to straight permanent expertise, I believe by your very own estimation. Why nerf it farther? It is logical. Mechanically sound. Thematic. Fun. And doesn’t break the game. Easy to implement by the DM as well. Just add 5 to a roll by the ranger if the DM knows it’s a thing the ranger would have advantage. Just add 2, 3, or whatever to the ranger’s roll if it’s a natural explorer thing. The player doesn’t even need to know.
yeah like it is a bit of an misnomer, you know a lot about your favored enemy, but you do not get to commit extra-potent hate crimes against them and there is nothing that says you have particular hatred against them or fight them better, it is just you being well studied, an 1st level ranger with canny and favoured enemy can be used to represent a pretty decent proffessor type character with a lot of languages and knowledge (if you happen to have like the sage background and chose history or investigation to have expertise in)
That said most of the examples above do not seem like good examples, yes you can make a fighter without unarmed fighting who still focuses on not using weapons and somewhat get by with the tavern brawler feat, but you will hardly be an effective combatant if you restrict yourself to attacks that deal 1d4 + str damage (or even less if you lack that particular feat) and to shoving and grappling, yes with interception you can still make yourself somewhat helpful in combat and with grappler and shield master plus your various battle master manuvers you can try to squeeze out the most you can out of it but you will not make it far. Yes you can suceed on a constiution saving throw without proficiency, that is why you are rolling for it, but you will have a greater chance of doing so it you do. Yes you can target an creature you are currently fighting alongside but like... why would you? Other than in a situation where they are currently trying to kill you or you are somehow forced to kill them? The feature is not even called "favored terrain" it is called "Natural Explorer", and no that does not nessesarily mean that the feature lets you add twice your proficiecy bonus to perception checks against creatures native to that terrain (like its broad, but not that broad)
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
You are jumping topics so quickly that you don't have to listen to discussion on any one of them. You basically deny the use of every wisdom skill except survival. no wonder you think its bad. Medicine checks are used on allies just as often as dead bodies but rarely on living enemies. Animal handing is most often used on pc Mounts or pets. Insight and perception are almost always on creatures so you say it doesn't work.
I do not appreciate how you turned my idea of using your "skills on allies" to "I want to commit hate crimes". literally the opposite of my point. [REDACTED]
You basically deny the use of every wisdom skill except survival. no wonder you think its bad. Medicine checks are used on allies just as often as dead bodies but rarely on living enemies. Animal handing is most often used on pc Mounts or pets. Insight and perception are almost always on creatures so you say it doesn't work.
....what?
I actiually think that natural explorer is fantastic and that there is a great deal of situations and skill checks it could apply to, and yes there are situations where it could benefit an abillity check made against a creature strongly tied to your favored terrain, but that will not be every wisdom or intelegence based check to interact with anything that is sometimes found within it
Level 2 party in the woods. Ranger with a favored terrain of mountains.
DM: “Ok. It’s getting dark and colder. What are your characters doing?”
Player 1: “My ranger makes a fire.”
DM: “Ok. Make a survive check.”
Player 1: Can my ranger apply their +2 natural explorer bonus?” They’re proficient in survival.”
DM: “No. This is the woods. Making a fire in the woods is completely different from making a fire in the mountains.”
Player 1: “Really? We’re not underwater or anything. Wouldn’t making a fire in in the woods be easier?”
DM: “It is easier. There’s more wood and kindling around, but you’re not actually in the mountains, so you aren’t as good at making fires in the wilderness here. By RAW, that’s how it works.”
Player 1: “Making a fire outside in the natural forested wilderness isn’t related to making a fire outside in the natural mountainous wilderness? Ok. (rolls 11 +5) They rolled a 16.”
DM: Success! The DC on the roll was 10.”
Player 2: “In one more level my scout rogue is going to be so much better at making fires in the wilderness than your ranger!”
Player 1: “Why not now?”
Player 2: “I don’t get my subclass until level 3.”
Player 2: “In one more level my scout rogue is going to be so much better at making fires in the wilderness than your ranger!”
Player 1: “Why not now?”
Player 2: “I don’t get my subclass until level 3.”
TBH this mostly just speaks of how archetypes at level 3 for a lot of classes makes it harder to build on some character concepts if you start at level one. The rogue could pretty easily be better than the ranger by just getting survival via background and putting expertise in it at level 1 without even bothering with the scout archetype, but paradoxically it incentivizes the player to NOT do that due to redundancy. Skipping that the big issue with ranger is that the class really doesn't give you much past level 5. Land's stride could be useful but is dm dependent on them using non magical difficult terrain all the way at level 8. At lower levels the base class IS competitive with other classes even if valour bards can out out ranger rangers and the conclave options ignoring beastmaster are pretty strong. The issue with ranger is that once I've hit level 5/7 (depending on how much you care about the level 7 features in yoru conclave) I have very little reason to not just multiclass into a class that still gives me features.
As a stupid example for comparison, a level 17 ranger vs a level 7 ranger/level 10 bard (yes level 17 is uncommon but I'm making a point). Ranger 17 still gets the standout features of... ignoring nonmagical difficult terrain, with a minute of preparation you are very good at staying so still they can't see you, a third of the level 2 rogue feature cunning action, and the last two features of your conclave of choice (mixed bag of usefulness). The bard multiclass trades out all those wonderful ranger features and the high level conclave options, for amazing features such as; Bardic Inspiration, Jack of All Trades, Expertise, an extra skill proficiency, Countercharm, all but whatever level 14 feature you would get with your college, 10 levels of all the full caster bard list goodies (too many to mention, but obviously superior to the ranger list), and the kicker of still having access to the 5th level ranger spells that a pure ranger would also get at level 17 because magical secrets lets you cheat.
TLDR non level 1 archetypes makes the level 1-2 range of play kinda strange for character design. Rangers from levels 1-5 aren't as bad as people make them out to be (except beastmasters), but after that you are much better off multiclassing into a class that still gives you useful features.
i do not see why you would ever make a check for that however? Like you are only supposed to roll for something when the outcome is uncertain, if you have ample fuel around and your dudes know what they are doing they will get a fire going eventually
TBH this mostly just speaks of how archetypes at level 3 for a lot of classes makes it harder to build on some character concepts if you start at level one. The rogue could pretty easily be better than the ranger by just getting survival via background and putting expertise in it at level 1 without even bothering with the scout archetype, but paradoxically it incentivizes the player to NOT do that due to redundancy. Skipping that the big issue with ranger is that the class really doesn't give you much past level 5. Land's stride could be useful but is dm dependent on them using non magical difficult terrain all the way at level 8. At lower levels the base class IS competitive with other classes even if valour bards can out out ranger rangers and the conclave options ignoring beastmaster are pretty strong. The issue with ranger is that once I've hit level 5/7 (depending on how much you care about the level 7 features in yoru conclave) I have very little reason to not just multiclass into a class that still gives me features.
As a stupid example for comparison, a level 17 ranger vs a level 7 ranger/level 10 bard (yes level 17 is uncommon but I'm making a point). Ranger 17 still gets the standout features of... ignoring nonmagical difficult terrain, with a minute of preparation you are very good at staying so still they can't see you, a third of the level 2 rogue feature cunning action, and the last two features of your conclave of choice (mixed bag of usefulness). The bard multiclass trades out all those wonderful ranger features and the high level conclave options, for amazing features such as; Bardic Inspiration, Jack of All Trades, Expertise, an extra skill proficiency, Countercharm, all but whatever level 14 feature you would get with your college, 10 levels of all the full caster bard list goodies (too many to mention, but obviously superior to the ranger list), and the kicker of still having access to the 5th level ranger spells that a pure ranger would also get at level 17 because magical secrets lets you cheat.
TLDR non level 1 archetypes makes the level 1-2 range of play kinda strange for character design. Rangers from levels 1-5 aren't as bad as people make them out to be (except beastmasters), but after that you are much better off multiclassing into a class that still gives you useful features.
100% agree on the weirdness of 3rd level archetypes, there are a lot of instances where they just do not make much sense, but i think you are undersellling some stuff for high level rangers:
1 land's stride is kinda mediocre, but you get it alongside an abillity score increase whereas most classes get nothing but the abillity score increase at that level, it may be trash but it is FREE trash and its primary benefit is still quite likely to come in handy during combat if you are fighting in stuff like deep snow, an crumbling ruin covered in debris, a nest of giant spiders with webs covering the floor or etc, only an small minority of difficult terrain is inherently magical, even many spells that cause difficult terrain have an duration of "instantaneous" meaning that the aftereffects of the spell is not inherently magical. You will get some use out of it over the campaign and an ability score increase is always nice
2 at 11th level the good conclaves (in other words beast master, hunter, and horizon walker, maybe gloom stalker and fey wanderer) get an feature that is equivalent in value to the 3rd level extra attack the fighter gets, something that should at least somewhat encourage you to keep going all the way there
3 the beast master, regardless of if you are using the variant from tasha's cauldron of everything or if you are just very careful with the pet you choose, has the best DPS and accuracy out of all the ranger conclaves, even if the original beast master pets had less hit points than a wizard, and may have some weird tricks up its sleeve if it is not using a combat-heavy pet, such as the giant wolf spider having an higher stealth bonus early on than what the rouge has or an weird mount with spider climb or whatever.
4 vanish may be mediocre but can be really neat depending on how broadly "cannot be tracked by nonmagical means" is interpreted, for instance if you theoretically were playing in an modern campaign (and for some reason decided to play a ranger in such a setting) then the feature would somehow act as an VPN for you and as a means of blocking GPS trackers put on you, it also means that you now will not leave footsteps in snow, mud and and and stuff and that if you go into a crowd you become essentially impossible to find, and that attempts to track down where you live via official paper documents and eyewitness accounts are also impossible (somehow). Heck if you and you clothes were somehow drenched in blood against your will the blood would not leave a mark even if you had to step on a million white bedsheets and pillows, you would not be soiling down the floor with your dirty shoes etc
5 hide in plain sight is practically the same as being invisible, it is difficult to set up but it works miracles and is superior to stuff like reliable talent, a bit redundant when pass without trace exists tho
Land stride still isn't the reason you pick going level 8, that's mostly just weighed as the ASI with a small bonus. I will say that the 8th level breakpoint isn't bad if you are already inclined to hit 7 though (because ASI is really good as well).
Hard Disagree on most of the "good conclaves" getting an equivalent to a hard +1 extra attack per action. Gloom Stalker basically gets the +1 attack that is slightly limited by the needing to miss already, but that is still decentish value. Horizon Walker's Distant Strike is situationally equivalent as well, as long as there is 3+ enemies on the field not even adding in the teleport value (this actually makes me want to mostly pure this conclave if I play a ranger in the future. Hunter's 11th level feature options though are nowhere near it because of the added conditions, being surrounded by a lot of mooks or having a bunch of clumped up enemies is a bit harder to guarantee at this level. Fey Wanderer's concentrationless summon fey is ok, but summon fey isn't really that great to me (no ranged attack but it can survive maybe one aoe spell, but not two). Monster Slayer gets what is basically a counterspell one a short rest. Swarm Keeper is in the same boat as Horizon Walker to me for this, knocking enemies prone for basically free is super good in melee or supporting your melee party members.
Beastmaster Vanilla is also one of the most conditionally finicky of the conclaves. A single fireball is liable to wipe out most of your possible options for summons with it, and the utility of the forms available is inferior to just casting conjure animals. Stats wise also inferior to casing the new Summon Beast. The new primal companions are actually reasonably competitive though for what you would be wanting for scaling, not becoming instantly useless as soon as a fireball happy caster looks in it's direction.
That take on vanish is.... generous. It's also important to note what level you are actually getting that feature as well. If it were at level 6 it would be pretty great sure, but at level 14 mundane tracking isn't really that important when you have access to instant teleportation or being able to give everyone in the party a fly speed.
Hide in plain sight isn't nearly the same as being invisible, most enemies fold to the very simple pass without trace + proficiency at stealth. Lets say you have 18 dex at level 10 (pretty reasonable if you are picking up feats rather than +2s to your dex), that's a +8 to your stealth at base, then a +10 from pass without trace puts you at 18, meaning a nat 1 is a 19 for stealth. People need to be actively looking for you and roll really well while you roll poorly for you to ever be seen. Add in expertise from feats/multiclassing and it becomes even more redundant since most enemies in the game wouldn't be able to find you. Also things like greater invisibility and assorted divination spells exist, far easier to use over needing to take a minute to hide only yourself.
MinokeTheWise, you obviously just want to play a bard. Your comparison of a ranger versus ranger/bard multiclass is crazy. Levels 8, 9, 10, and 11 for the ranger are huge. Why don't you just play a bard? A rogue with 2 extra expertise skills a ranger does not make, and a bard (although, IMO, probably in the same explorer class as ranger and druid, but in different ways) is in no way shape or form a ranger. Not even close. Counter Charm is bad. Talk about DM fiat and situational. And why a valor bard for the example? That is very redundant (extra attack) and weak. It would be level 15 before the multiclass had access to level 3 ranger spells! Totally different play style, even if you don't count the different spellcasting stats. If you do cleric (war or nature) and/or druid (moon or shepherd) is a much better choice.
Land's stride is crazy good just by itself. Difficult terrain is everywhere, if a DM doesn't use difficult terrain that is them doing the players a disservice, not the ranger sucking as a class or this as an ability. Even if a DM doesn't use difficult terrain, level 3 spells for the ranger are amazing. Plant growth combined with land's stride is a melee enemy army show stopper. Period. Lightning arrow is a great damage boost for the ranger, with the ability to surpass a fighter or paladin in single run damage output. And conjure animals, amazing. This spell alone is why you take ranger to level 9. Third level spells and the ranger level 11 abilities make them great army fighters and battlefield controllers.
Don't compare vanish to a rogue. Compare vanish to a fighter or paladin. You can't. The other martials have nothing like this, at any level. Don't cherry pick class abilities from classes and compare them together at different levels. It’s bad compared to one class and ama omg compared to another. For a ranged martial class, a bonus action hide is great. Rangers get this at a good level for martial characters. Plus they now have access to fog cloud, hide in plain sight, and other spell and abilities that compound vanish. Like hide in plain sight!
Hide in plain sight is not understood by many. It is a one time (as far as combat is concerned) ability that is not a long rest or short rest recharge. It is a one minute recharge ability! It functions much like the lightfoot halfling and wood elf racial abilities that are exceptions to the hiding rules, breaking the being seen and cover parts. A lightfoot halfling can hide when only just by behind a creature larger that it. A wood elf can hide when only obscured lightly. A ranger can hide by just pressing up against a flat surface as least as big as them. The ranger needs to spend a little prep, but gets a huge bonus when they do. And the prep and use of the ability are two separate parts. You add this ability of the ranger with land's stride and vanish, and the ranger starts each combat with a bonus action invisibly, except its better than invisibility, because you are hidden.
Also, beast masters, if nothing else, are still a vanilla ranger from levels 1 through 10. Ranger's are doing quite a bit in those levels as a martial, healer, and controller caster. Beast masters have one of the beast single target damage outputs of all of the ranger's at levels 11+. And the PHB beats masters can have stealth and perception skills surpassing that of a rogue. Spiders, wolves, frogs, panthers, and crabs are all great controllers. Snakes, wolves, and panthers are great for damage. And any flying beast will make a beast master the best wilderness explorer of all the rangers (which are better than bards and scout rogues) with beast sense and speak with animals.
I know everyone wants the "pet" with a name that spends the whole campaign with the party, but unfortunately the WotC team decided to make it a long rest recharge ability. That's what it is. A long rest ability. The RAW (and I hate quoting RAW) is "If the beast dies, you can obtain another one by spending 8 hours magically bonding with another beast that isn’t hostile to you, either the same type of beast as before or a different one." The rule says nothing about local beasts, native beasts, or DM choice. So yes, a AoE spell can take out your beast. If it does, it has done massive damage to the entire group, and the wizard might be dead too. If the effect only targeted the beast, that is great! What a great use of a long rest ability!
I know everyone wants the "pet" with a name that spends the whole campaign with the party, but unfortunately the WotC team decided to make it a long rest recharge ability. That's what it is. A long rest ability. The RAW (and I hate quoting RAW) is "If the beast dies, you can obtain another one by spending 8 hours magically bonding with another beast that isn’t hostile to you, either the same type of beast as before or a different one." The rule says nothing about local beasts, native beasts, or DM choice.
So any beast you want should be available regardless of circumstances, because the rules don't spell out that you should plausibly have access to it? Wolves on a ship on the open sea, eagles in the Underdark, giant crabs on mountain tops?
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I know everyone wants the "pet" with a name that spends the whole campaign with the party, but unfortunately the WotC team decided to make it a long rest recharge ability. That's what it is. A long rest ability. The RAW (and I hate quoting RAW) is "If the beast dies, you can obtain another one by spending 8 hours magically bonding with another beast that isn’t hostile to you, either the same type of beast as before or a different one." The rule says nothing about local beasts, native beasts, or DM choice.
So any beast you want should be available regardless of circumstances, because the rules don't spell out that you should plausibly have access to it? Wolves on a ship on the open sea, eagles in the Underdark, giant crabs on mountain tops?
Sure. You’re right. I agree. That’s why RAW is silly much of the time. Part of the fun for me would be that restriction or “challenge”. A shark, a manta ray, a rat, an eagle, all would be good animals in that place and situation. If you are really power gaming you could use “good stats” and reskin them as the appropriate beasts, or use the official rules in the DMG with your DM and have them make up a sweet CR 1/4 beast that is also appropriate for the situation.
Maybe. But the game is full of these kinds of things. Languages, skills, spells, all kinds of things that just...happen. Why are people punishing the ranger? LOL! Why would you WANT a wolf on a ship?!
Let’s say you have to choose a situationally appropriate beast. My answer above still holds up.
”...you could use “good stats” and reskin them as the appropriate beasts, or use the official rules in the DMG with your DM and have them make up a sweet CR 1/4 beast that is also appropriate for the situation.”
PHB Beastmaster is not good. Why would WotC give it a full overhaul with a new companion feature that is much better otherwise? Just for fun?
The new beastmaster is hands down better. Operating off of your bonus action and having decent HP scaling far outweighs any tactics you could do with a premium choice of old like the wolf.
Also, beast masters, if nothing else, are still a vanilla ranger from levels 1 through 10. Ranger's are doing quite a bit in those levels as a martial, healer, and controller caster.
Saying the base class still functions is not a good defense of the subclass. I'm also not impressed by saying the beast makes you even better at exploring. That's just not necessary. The ranger already has most of their abilities dedicated to exploration. Diminishing returns is a very real thing. As for combat, the PHB companion is not a good combatant. It has nothing to do with damage output, but survivability of the beast. This is not find familiar. It is a big cost to lose your companion early in the day and have to go the rest of the day without.
I agree it's not fair to directly compare the ranger and rogue, but it is fair to look at the 12 level gap and the fact that vanish is 1/3 of cunning action and raise an eyebrow. It isn't a bad ability in a vacuum. It's bad because of the level you get it at.
And again Hide in Plain Sight is bad because of its level. It's also just super prohibitive in its use case, which makes it bad overall. Invisibility is a second level spell. Pass without Trace is a second level spell. And guess what, you can move while under their effect. Being extra good at sneaking while not moving is beyond niche.
As for the stuff on Primeval Awareness I bit ago that I did not respond to right away. Primeval Awareness works against itself. It is not a good preparation "spell". 1-6 miles is huge in DnD, and not knowing the location means that you could easily never encounter what you prepared for. Is it really worth a precious spell slot to know the fighter doesn't have to buy holy water or something similar? I doubt it. I think that's a big stretch to try and make this ability look better than it is.
And back to the comparison to Divine Sense, the big difference, and the one that matters the most, is that Primeval Awareness is not free to use. Ever. It always costs spell slots. I personally never had any spell slots to spare on an ability that is very likely to produce little to no useful information. The ranger I played with in my last campaign never did either.
I like Land's Stride a good deal though. Just wanted to end this on a positive note lol
Maybe. But the game is full of these kinds of things. Languages, skills, spells, all kinds of things that just...happen. Why are people punishing the ranger? LOL! Why would you WANT a wolf on a ship?!
Let’s say you have to choose a situationally appropriate beast. My answer above still holds up.
”...you could use “good stats” and reskin them as the appropriate beasts, or use the official rules in the DMG with your DM and have them make up a sweet CR 1/4 beast that is also appropriate for the situation.”
Point is, it’s a long rest ability.
Not exactly. It's an ability that takes 8 hours, but that's not the same as a long rest. The animal also can't be hostile. As for "punishing", not always giving the players what they might want because circumstances don't allow it isn't punishment, it's making sure suspension of disbelief isn't needed for the world to make sense.
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All the talk about what a ranger is suppose to be is what hurts the class impression. Look at what is mechanically given and use it to create a pc. Not the other way around. People look at the names of the mechanics or their first impression and make bad assumptions. Too many people limit the class by trying to make it something it isn't or force it into a mental mold. Believe it or not you can build a unarmed fighter with out the Unarmed fighting style. You can pass a con save without proficiency. Just because the word terrain is in the ability title it doesn't mean creatures don't apply. Just because its labeled favored foe doesn't mean it wont work on an ally. Look at the mechanics and figure out how best to use them. Ranger builds require Choice and planning and adaptability. If that's not for you play a different class.
I'm beginning to see a pattern of jumping topics which derails the conversation. Please use separate posts if its an discussion not continuing the discussion on the previous points.
To add to one of your points, I find changing the name of the ranger ability from favored enemy to favored creature, even if it’s only for me in my head as a player, does quite a lot of good for me thematically and mechanically.
And thus, we come to the crux of the distinction between "role" players and "roll" players. Well, that's a bit of an overgeneralization, since most people do fall in the middle than either extreme. They like both stories, and mechanically viable characters that match the story. Make no mistake - the majority of players want the nature-skirmisher ranger, and want mechanics to reflect that story.
And I know its the majority of players, because this was the result of the D&D's team research during the playtest, and their ongoing feedback. We're told this, and I see absolutely zero reason why they would lie about these results, especially when using said results clearly has worked for their sales figures.
yeah like it is a bit of an misnomer, you know a lot about your favored enemy, but you do not get to commit extra-potent hate crimes against them and there is nothing that says you have particular hatred against them or fight them better, it is just you being well studied, an 1st level ranger with canny and favoured enemy can be used to represent a pretty decent proffessor type character with a lot of languages and knowledge (if you happen to have like the sage background and chose history or investigation to have expertise in)
That said most of the examples above do not seem like good examples, yes you can make a fighter without unarmed fighting who still focuses on not using weapons and somewhat get by with the tavern brawler feat, but you will hardly be an effective combatant if you restrict yourself to attacks that deal 1d4 + str damage (or even less if you lack that particular feat) and to shoving and grappling, yes with interception you can still make yourself somewhat helpful in combat and with grappler and shield master plus your various battle master manuvers you can try to squeeze out the most you can out of it but you will not make it far. Yes you can suceed on a constiution saving throw without proficiency, that is why you are rolling for it, but you will have a greater chance of doing so it you do. Yes you can target an creature you are currently fighting alongside but like... why would you? Other than in a situation where they are currently trying to kill you or you are somehow forced to kill them? The feature is not even called "favored terrain" it is called "Natural Explorer", and no that does not nessesarily mean that the feature lets you add twice your proficiecy bonus to perception checks against creatures native to that terrain (like its broad, but not that broad)
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
“The feature is not even called "favored terrain" it is called "Natural Explorer", and no that does not nessesarily mean that the feature lets you add twice your proficiecy bonus to perception checks against creatures native to that terrain (like its broad, but not that broad)”
Really?! That is like the entire point of the ability. Mechanically that is the reason why favored enemy awards advantage and natural explorer doubles proficiency. So they can be combined. Why wouldn’t a ranger be a little bit better at perception checks regarding things related to a favored terrain l? Like a terrain of forest and hearing a bear. Like a terrain of swamp and smelling a gas or plant decay. Or survival checks? Tracking an animal or creature from their favored terrain, like a mushroom folk from the underdark but in a dungeon or grasslands. That is the whole idea. It’s already a limited ability compared to straight permanent expertise, I believe by your very own estimation. Why nerf it farther? It is logical. Mechanically sound. Thematic. Fun. And doesn’t break the game. Easy to implement by the DM as well. Just add 5 to a roll by the ranger if the DM knows it’s a thing the ranger would have advantage. Just add 2, 3, or whatever to the ranger’s roll if it’s a natural explorer thing. The player doesn’t even need to know.
You are jumping topics so quickly that you don't have to listen to discussion on any one of them. You basically deny the use of every wisdom skill except survival. no wonder you think its bad. Medicine checks are used on allies just as often as dead bodies but rarely on living enemies. Animal handing is most often used on pc Mounts or pets. Insight and perception are almost always on creatures so you say it doesn't work.
I do not appreciate how you turned my idea of using your "skills on allies" to "I want to commit hate crimes". literally the opposite of my point. [REDACTED]
....what?
I actiually think that natural explorer is fantastic and that there is a great deal of situations and skill checks it could apply to, and yes there are situations where it could benefit an abillity check made against a creature strongly tied to your favored terrain, but that will not be every wisdom or intelegence based check to interact with anything that is sometimes found within it
[REDACTED]
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
Level 2 party in the woods. Ranger with a favored terrain of mountains.
DM: “Ok. It’s getting dark and colder. What are your characters doing?”
Player 1: “My ranger makes a fire.”
DM: “Ok. Make a survive check.”
Player 1: Can my ranger apply their +2 natural explorer bonus?” They’re proficient in survival.”
DM: “No. This is the woods. Making a fire in the woods is completely different from making a fire in the mountains.”
Player 1: “Really? We’re not underwater or anything. Wouldn’t making a fire in in the woods be easier?”
DM: “It is easier. There’s more wood and kindling around, but you’re not actually in the mountains, so you aren’t as good at making fires in the wilderness here. By RAW, that’s how it works.”
Player 1: “Making a fire outside in the natural forested wilderness isn’t related to making a fire outside in the natural mountainous wilderness? Ok. (rolls 11 +5) They rolled a 16.”
DM: Success! The DC on the roll was 10.”
Player 2: “In one more level my scout rogue is going to be so much better at making fires in the wilderness than your ranger!”
Player 1: “Why not now?”
Player 2: “I don’t get my subclass until level 3.”
TBH this mostly just speaks of how archetypes at level 3 for a lot of classes makes it harder to build on some character concepts if you start at level one. The rogue could pretty easily be better than the ranger by just getting survival via background and putting expertise in it at level 1 without even bothering with the scout archetype, but paradoxically it incentivizes the player to NOT do that due to redundancy. Skipping that the big issue with ranger is that the class really doesn't give you much past level 5. Land's stride could be useful but is dm dependent on them using non magical difficult terrain all the way at level 8. At lower levels the base class IS competitive with other classes
even if valour bards can out out ranger rangersand the conclave options ignoring beastmaster are pretty strong. The issue with ranger is that once I've hit level 5/7 (depending on how much you care about the level 7 features in yoru conclave) I have very little reason to not just multiclass into a class that still gives me features.As a stupid example for comparison, a level 17 ranger vs a level 7 ranger/level 10 bard (yes level 17 is uncommon but I'm making a point). Ranger 17 still gets the standout features of... ignoring nonmagical difficult terrain, with a minute of preparation you are very good at staying so still they can't see you, a third of the level 2 rogue feature cunning action, and the last two features of your conclave of choice (mixed bag of usefulness). The bard multiclass trades out all those wonderful ranger features and the high level conclave options, for amazing features such as; Bardic Inspiration, Jack of All Trades, Expertise, an extra skill proficiency, Countercharm, all but whatever level 14 feature you would get with your college, 10 levels of all the full caster bard list goodies (too many to mention, but obviously superior to the ranger list), and the kicker of still having access to the 5th level ranger spells that a pure ranger would also get at level 17 because magical secrets lets you cheat.
TLDR non level 1 archetypes makes the level 1-2 range of play kinda strange for character design. Rangers from levels 1-5 aren't as bad as people make them out to be (except beastmasters), but after that you are much better off multiclassing into a class that still gives you useful features.
i do not see why you would ever make a check for that however? Like you are only supposed to roll for something when the outcome is uncertain, if you have ample fuel around and your dudes know what they are doing they will get a fire going eventually
100% agree on the weirdness of 3rd level archetypes, there are a lot of instances where they just do not make much sense, but i think you are undersellling some stuff for high level rangers:
1 land's stride is kinda mediocre, but you get it alongside an abillity score increase whereas most classes get nothing but the abillity score increase at that level, it may be trash but it is FREE trash and its primary benefit is still quite likely to come in handy during combat if you are fighting in stuff like deep snow, an crumbling ruin covered in debris, a nest of giant spiders with webs covering the floor or etc, only an small minority of difficult terrain is inherently magical, even many spells that cause difficult terrain have an duration of "instantaneous" meaning that the aftereffects of the spell is not inherently magical. You will get some use out of it over the campaign and an ability score increase is always nice
2 at 11th level the good conclaves (in other words beast master, hunter, and horizon walker, maybe gloom stalker and fey wanderer) get an feature that is equivalent in value to the 3rd level extra attack the fighter gets, something that should at least somewhat encourage you to keep going all the way there
3 the beast master, regardless of if you are using the variant from tasha's cauldron of everything or if you are just very careful with the pet you choose, has the best DPS and accuracy out of all the ranger conclaves, even if the original beast master pets had less hit points than a wizard, and may have some weird tricks up its sleeve if it is not using a combat-heavy pet, such as the giant wolf spider having an higher stealth bonus early on than what the rouge has or an weird mount with spider climb or whatever.
4 vanish may be mediocre but can be really neat depending on how broadly "cannot be tracked by nonmagical means" is interpreted, for instance if you theoretically were playing in an modern campaign (and for some reason decided to play a ranger in such a setting) then the feature would somehow act as an VPN for you and as a means of blocking GPS trackers put on you, it also means that you now will not leave footsteps in snow, mud and and and stuff and that if you go into a crowd you become essentially impossible to find, and that attempts to track down where you live via official paper documents and eyewitness accounts are also impossible (somehow). Heck if you and you clothes were somehow drenched in blood against your will the blood would not leave a mark even if you had to step on a million white bedsheets and pillows, you would not be soiling down the floor with your dirty shoes etc
5 hide in plain sight is practically the same as being invisible, it is difficult to set up but it works miracles and is superior to stuff like reliable talent, a bit redundant when pass without trace exists tho
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
Land stride still isn't the reason you pick going level 8, that's mostly just weighed as the ASI with a small bonus. I will say that the 8th level breakpoint isn't bad if you are already inclined to hit 7 though (because ASI is really good as well).
Hard Disagree on most of the "good conclaves" getting an equivalent to a hard +1 extra attack per action. Gloom Stalker basically gets the +1 attack that is slightly limited by the needing to miss already, but that is still decentish value. Horizon Walker's Distant Strike is situationally equivalent as well, as long as there is 3+ enemies on the field not even adding in the teleport value (this actually makes me want to mostly pure this conclave if I play a ranger in the future. Hunter's 11th level feature options though are nowhere near it because of the added conditions, being surrounded by a lot of mooks or having a bunch of clumped up enemies is a bit harder to guarantee at this level. Fey Wanderer's concentrationless summon fey is ok, but summon fey isn't really that great to me (no ranged attack but it can survive maybe one aoe spell, but not two). Monster Slayer gets what is basically a counterspell one a short rest. Swarm Keeper is in the same boat as Horizon Walker to me for this, knocking enemies prone for basically free is super good in melee or supporting your melee party members.
Beastmaster Vanilla is also one of the most conditionally finicky of the conclaves. A single fireball is liable to wipe out most of your possible options for summons with it, and the utility of the forms available is inferior to just casting conjure animals. Stats wise also inferior to casing the new Summon Beast. The new primal companions are actually reasonably competitive though for what you would be wanting for scaling, not becoming instantly useless as soon as a fireball happy caster looks in it's direction.
That take on vanish is.... generous. It's also important to note what level you are actually getting that feature as well. If it were at level 6 it would be pretty great sure, but at level 14 mundane tracking isn't really that important when you have access to instant teleportation or being able to give everyone in the party a fly speed.
Hide in plain sight isn't nearly the same as being invisible, most enemies fold to the very simple pass without trace + proficiency at stealth. Lets say you have 18 dex at level 10 (pretty reasonable if you are picking up feats rather than +2s to your dex), that's a +8 to your stealth at base, then a +10 from pass without trace puts you at 18, meaning a nat 1 is a 19 for stealth. People need to be actively looking for you and roll really well while you roll poorly for you to ever be seen. Add in expertise from feats/multiclassing and it becomes even more redundant since most enemies in the game wouldn't be able to find you. Also things like greater invisibility and assorted divination spells exist, far easier to use over needing to take a minute to hide only yourself.
MinokeTheWise, you obviously just want to play a bard. Your comparison of a ranger versus ranger/bard multiclass is crazy. Levels 8, 9, 10, and 11 for the ranger are huge. Why don't you just play a bard? A rogue with 2 extra expertise skills a ranger does not make, and a bard (although, IMO, probably in the same explorer class as ranger and druid, but in different ways) is in no way shape or form a ranger. Not even close. Counter Charm is bad. Talk about DM fiat and situational. And why a valor bard for the example? That is very redundant (extra attack) and weak. It would be level 15 before the multiclass had access to level 3 ranger spells! Totally different play style, even if you don't count the different spellcasting stats. If you do cleric (war or nature) and/or druid (moon or shepherd) is a much better choice.
Land's stride is crazy good just by itself. Difficult terrain is everywhere, if a DM doesn't use difficult terrain that is them doing the players a disservice, not the ranger sucking as a class or this as an ability. Even if a DM doesn't use difficult terrain, level 3 spells for the ranger are amazing. Plant growth combined with land's stride is a melee enemy army show stopper. Period. Lightning arrow is a great damage boost for the ranger, with the ability to surpass a fighter or paladin in single run damage output. And conjure animals, amazing. This spell alone is why you take ranger to level 9. Third level spells and the ranger level 11 abilities make them great army fighters and battlefield controllers.
Don't compare vanish to a rogue. Compare vanish to a fighter or paladin. You can't. The other martials have nothing like this, at any level. Don't cherry pick class abilities from classes and compare them together at different levels. It’s bad compared to one class and ama omg compared to another. For a ranged martial class, a bonus action hide is great. Rangers get this at a good level for martial characters. Plus they now have access to fog cloud, hide in plain sight, and other spell and abilities that compound vanish. Like hide in plain sight!
Hide in plain sight is not understood by many. It is a one time (as far as combat is concerned) ability that is not a long rest or short rest recharge. It is a one minute recharge ability! It functions much like the lightfoot halfling and wood elf racial abilities that are exceptions to the hiding rules, breaking the being seen and cover parts. A lightfoot halfling can hide when only just by behind a creature larger that it. A wood elf can hide when only obscured lightly. A ranger can hide by just pressing up against a flat surface as least as big as them. The ranger needs to spend a little prep, but gets a huge bonus when they do. And the prep and use of the ability are two separate parts. You add this ability of the ranger with land's stride and vanish, and the ranger starts each combat with a bonus action invisibly, except its better than invisibility, because you are hidden.
Also, beast masters, if nothing else, are still a vanilla ranger from levels 1 through 10. Ranger's are doing quite a bit in those levels as a martial, healer, and controller caster. Beast masters have one of the beast single target damage outputs of all of the ranger's at levels 11+. And the PHB beats masters can have stealth and perception skills surpassing that of a rogue. Spiders, wolves, frogs, panthers, and crabs are all great controllers. Snakes, wolves, and panthers are great for damage. And any flying beast will make a beast master the best wilderness explorer of all the rangers (which are better than bards and scout rogues) with beast sense and speak with animals.
I know everyone wants the "pet" with a name that spends the whole campaign with the party, but unfortunately the WotC team decided to make it a long rest recharge ability. That's what it is. A long rest ability. The RAW (and I hate quoting RAW) is "If the beast dies, you can obtain another one by spending 8 hours magically bonding with another beast that isn’t hostile to you, either the same type of beast as before or a different one." The rule says nothing about local beasts, native beasts, or DM choice. So yes, a AoE spell can take out your beast. If it does, it has done massive damage to the entire group, and the wizard might be dead too. If the effect only targeted the beast, that is great! What a great use of a long rest ability!
So any beast you want should be available regardless of circumstances, because the rules don't spell out that you should plausibly have access to it? Wolves on a ship on the open sea, eagles in the Underdark, giant crabs on mountain tops?
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Sure. You’re right. I agree. That’s why RAW is silly much of the time. Part of the fun for me would be that restriction or “challenge”. A shark, a manta ray, a rat, an eagle, all would be good animals in that place and situation. If you are really power gaming you could use “good stats” and reskin them as the appropriate beasts, or use the official rules in the DMG with your DM and have them make up a sweet CR 1/4 beast that is also appropriate for the situation.
Maybe. But the game is full of these kinds of things. Languages, skills, spells, all kinds of things that just...happen. Why are people punishing the ranger? LOL! Why would you WANT a wolf on a ship?!
Let’s say you have to choose a situationally appropriate beast. My answer above still holds up.
”...you could use “good stats” and reskin them as the appropriate beasts, or use the official rules in the DMG with your DM and have them make up a sweet CR 1/4 beast that is also appropriate for the situation.”
Point is, it’s a long rest ability.
PHB Beastmaster is not good. Why would WotC give it a full overhaul with a new companion feature that is much better otherwise? Just for fun?
The new beastmaster is hands down better. Operating off of your bonus action and having decent HP scaling far outweighs any tactics you could do with a premium choice of old like the wolf.
Saying the base class still functions is not a good defense of the subclass. I'm also not impressed by saying the beast makes you even better at exploring. That's just not necessary. The ranger already has most of their abilities dedicated to exploration. Diminishing returns is a very real thing. As for combat, the PHB companion is not a good combatant. It has nothing to do with damage output, but survivability of the beast. This is not find familiar. It is a big cost to lose your companion early in the day and have to go the rest of the day without.
I agree it's not fair to directly compare the ranger and rogue, but it is fair to look at the 12 level gap and the fact that vanish is 1/3 of cunning action and raise an eyebrow. It isn't a bad ability in a vacuum. It's bad because of the level you get it at.
And again Hide in Plain Sight is bad because of its level. It's also just super prohibitive in its use case, which makes it bad overall. Invisibility is a second level spell. Pass without Trace is a second level spell. And guess what, you can move while under their effect. Being extra good at sneaking while not moving is beyond niche.
As for the stuff on Primeval Awareness I bit ago that I did not respond to right away. Primeval Awareness works against itself. It is not a good preparation "spell". 1-6 miles is huge in DnD, and not knowing the location means that you could easily never encounter what you prepared for. Is it really worth a precious spell slot to know the fighter doesn't have to buy holy water or something similar? I doubt it. I think that's a big stretch to try and make this ability look better than it is.
And back to the comparison to Divine Sense, the big difference, and the one that matters the most, is that Primeval Awareness is not free to use. Ever. It always costs spell slots. I personally never had any spell slots to spare on an ability that is very likely to produce little to no useful information. The ranger I played with in my last campaign never did either.
I like Land's Stride a good deal though. Just wanted to end this on a positive note lol
Not exactly. It's an ability that takes 8 hours, but that's not the same as a long rest. The animal also can't be hostile. As for "punishing", not always giving the players what they might want because circumstances don't allow it isn't punishment, it's making sure suspension of disbelief isn't needed for the world to make sense.
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