You still have mirror image or blindness as a good low level defensive options which do not require concentration tough, and those make it less likely you will have to roll for a concentration check.
Also, Paladins and Eldritch Knight will often have a better AC, so they will not be required to make as much concentration saves as a Ranger.
Anyway, my point was that the ranger seems to be gish class that most rely on concentration checks, as their main feature and signature spell, and most of their spell list require concentration, while being at the same time the worst at maintaining concentration due to their lack of defensive options to mitigate dmg or boost those checks.
Giving them proficiency in con saves, say at level 6 (the same level paladins get their aura), or even just letting them add their wis modifier to concentration checks at this level, if the whole con save proficiency seems too much, would go a long way.
Then again, I'll will gladly play my character for a while, and maybe I'll realize the class is just fine as it is.
I will be playing a ranger in my next game, so I'll see if maintaining concentration is a real problem, but I am already planning to take warcaster at level 4, and I feel like it's a feat tax, almost mandatory (that or resilent), and that will put me behing the curve for my main stat. When you feel the need to take a feat to make your class features work, that is not a good sign. Let's compare :
Almost all gish classes get a way or a ressource for helping with concentration checks:
Paladins get Aura of protection at level 6, not only giving them their charisma modifier to con saves to maintain concentration, but to all saves to all people in their aura. Eldritch Knights get con saves from the start, and can throw up shield when needed to possibly not have to make the check. They also get indomitable at level 9. Arcane tricksers get uncanny dodge at level 5, effectively reducing the concentration save DC for at least one attack targeting them each turn. Pact of the blade Warlocks can hide behind temporary HP, again reducing the need to make concentration checks or reducing the DC if the dmg goes through. Valor bards can use an inspiration dice to boost their AC to often avoid making the concentration check and get mirror images to avoid taking dmg altogether.
The ranger has to wait till level 13 to not to worry about concentration, and only for one spell. Yes, you can cast it a couple of time per day without a spell slot, but you use your bonus action to do that. This is an hindrance mainly for the beastmaster, as you will not get your beast to attack this turn, but also if you want to cast jump, make an off hand attack with this cool second magical non nick weapon you found, etc. Their spell list is also heavy on concentration spells, so it's not only about HM.
The way I see it, rangers are really MAD.
You need dex as your primary stat. You need wis for spells, and, if you are a beastmaster, your beast attacks and dmg scale with your wis score. You need con to maintain concentration on your bread and butter spell, on most of your spell list, and for survivability. You almost are obligated to take a feat here. You need str, because you still need to be somewhat decent at athletics if you want to climb/swim/jump. You get a climb speed, but you still need to make some checks if the surface is slippery, say. Else, yes, you will climb and swim faster, but you will also fall faster or sink faster. You should be good at this stuff!
While building my character, I felt that the class features are all over the place. The class has a lot of cool tools, but they all are tied to a different ability scores, so you will not to be able to use those tools in a reliable way. That was the problem they pinpointed and fixed with the monk grapples, or for jumping with the thief rogue.
I love my charater concept and I am sure I will have a lot of fun at the table. I do not care to min/max a character in order to find the best broken combo to pull off, but I felt, while building it, that the game required me to invest in so many ability scores to be somewhat effective at using my class features that it seems, for now, quite problematic.
But I'll play my halfling ranger (at least I will get to reroll my 1 on con check) and see how it goes in real play. I am well aware that theory crafting can only take you so far.
Prevously being mad was less of a problem not because the ranger tools have changed per se but because game expectations of optimization have made such elements change encounter design expectations.
Now I would often only take a 14 in dex and take archery fighting style to give a functional 16 for attacks . This would allow me to choose a stranger or a wis ranger build each with its own benefits. I even built some all stats 14 builds(note after race/background was applied) that were functional and fun.
Yes, but it's a game balance issue. If all the classes had their features use different ability scores and all players had to choose which one to put emphasis on, that would be fine. So, it's not that MAD is bad in itself, it's bad only when one class is MAD and the others are not, which is the case here.
Most of the classes are built around one or two scores, then the rest is gravy. I want to play a Bladelock? Charisma is all I need really, with maybe a bit of dex or con for survivability. All my features (attack rolls, damage rolls, spells) are tied to a single ability score. Then I can go crazy, making him a nature folk with some wis skills, or a strong man with decent athletics, or a stealthy rogueish warlock. I have more choices outside of my main shtick because my main shtick is secured by one or two scores.
Ranger? Sorry bud, but you willl struggle to get all of your main features working reliably, so your choice is not what cool flavor you want to add to those features, but what you decide to substract from them. I do not play the cool bladelock who is also a bit of a rogue, or the one that was a stong man in a circus, or the woodman who made a pact with the devil but is very good with animals and at survival.
No, I play the vanilla ranger that is not so good at climbing and swimming, or the vanilla ranger that has a difficult time casting his spells and following tracks, or the one that is very good with his spells and can climb like no other, but struggle to fire an arrow and stay hidden. Every choice feels like removing, not adding, something.
Also, about the "nature warrior" archetype The fact is, you can already buid a better "ranger" with other classes, which is a bit sad.
A wood elf (35 movement, longstrider and pass without trace), with the guide background (stealth, survival and magic initiate druid - take guidance for a reliable athletics and other skill checks boost, another cantrip like message, and say speak with animals) and 3 levels in vengeance paladin (you get HM and divine favor, and they can stack), dual wielding style, athletics and medecine and you will have a "magical nature warrior" that will outshine the ranger, with a cool magical steed as an animal companion and a big boost to concentration checks at level 6.
Or go human to trade the elf spells and movement for proficiencies in perception, animal handling, knowledge nature and another skill, say persuasion for dealing with the animals you speak with and that strange druid you encounter in a shack at the end of the world.
Fighters? Yeah, lot of feats, lot of options.
Build a dex battlemaster with decent wisdom score, Athletics, Stealth, Perception, Animal handling, and Survival and choose manoeuvres like ambush, evasive footwork, precision attack, etc. You now also can use second wind on skill checks, more weapon mastery for bait and switch tactics, and have more feats than other classes to gain more skills or expertise, or ritual caster to speak with animals, find a familiar and set Alarm to sleep in the woods withouth worries. And you can do that with all your class features working reliably all the time.
Or go wood elf for the spells, magic initiate druid, ritual caster and feytouched with an eldritch knight. Go Dex/int/wis with a bit of con, stealth/knowledge nature/perception/survival and investigation, some divination spells to navigate the woods, your second wind to boost skill checks when needed and thematic spells like find familiar, feather fall, fog cloud, longstrider, gust of wind, etc. There you go, another nature themed warrior that will outshine the ranger.
All that without any multiclassing...
The fact is, the ranger is not the best nor the most interresting "woodland tracker, fighter and explorer with a bit of magic" you can build. And, I don't know, I feel like it should be?
SAD hybrids are much less viable than they used to be. That bladelock? I hope you don't want feats. I think this is a much better system. now you choose, am I a caster or am I a melee. You spend your ASI feats appropriately, and those choices have weight. There's no longer a "proper way to win". The only reason that your EK beats out the ranger is because the EK is grabbing wizard spells, and they are much better than the spells the ranger gets. Ranger's spell list is the problem, not the class or general class design.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
The warlock has the exact same number of ASI than the ranger. I think I am not getting your point.
The Bladelock uses one ability score for melee attacks, dmg and spells. Ranger has to use two. On that front only, it's way easier to spend one ASI on a feat as a Warlock, as the ranger will need to use them to boost two ability scores instead of one.
The warlock, because of SAD can put more into con, so has a better chance to keep their concentration going. Ranger need to make concentration checks as much is not more than the warlock, but again, that's another ability score they have to invest in or a feat to spend.
But yes, I agree. A revised ranger spell list, which makes concentration easier and gradually drops concentration on some key spells, as I proposed earlier in this thread, seems like a good idea.
ASI yes. However, now feats are half feats, and none of them give you cha. So, you can boost your charisma OR you can take a feat that doesn't help your charisma, but helps you in melee. The str or dex character taking the same feats, gets a +1 to their str or dex as well. You can do it the old way, but you're going to fall behind. the people who are str or dex based when they take feats.
The ranger who wants the DW feat will be getting a bonus to his str or dex when he takes it. The cha warlock has to choose between the feat, or boosting cha and cannot do both at the same time.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
The idea of the free castings of HM is that you will be able to recast it without using slots so you don’t need to worry about losing concentration on it. As you said we will need to see how that actually plays out over the next year’s games. My suggestions on skills (something like jack of all trades/reliable talent/a free skilled feat) is to give rangers a better chance on more skills/rolls that may be coming off low stat skills. There some other things that might be useful there as well - like getting to add your PB to swim and climb checks if you have a swim/climb speed. Rangers are definitely MAD which is why I prefer to roll for stats - when I get those good/great sets of rolls I make a ranger, if I don’t I make something else. I think all the half feats are going to end up helping the ranger over all.
The only problem I see with HM using conc, is that it prevents you from using other spells that use conc. With most of the good spells using that concentration, it's got a feel of having to choose between class features. I understand why rangers are unhappy with the HM focus, I don't like it either. But I don't think it makes the class bad.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
I know they tested conc less HM, and found it to be overpowered. I'd really like to see the insight as to how. it was overpowered, because honestly I don't see that.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
I think non concentration HM would be massively overpowered if given at low level. If it came on later 10th level+ it would be fine. One of the bigger issues with it is that it lasts an hour. This can cause a lot of troubles. Divine Favor's short time is much more manageable.
I do not think there is a "bad" class in the new PHB. I like the ranger enough to roll one for my next game.
I do not think that HM being the focus or requiring concentration is the problem. More exactly, I think it's a problem because of other design choices, those being:
- As noted, most of the ranger spells are also concentration. That being said, having a way to burn a bonus action to free cast HM a couple time a day helps a lot to mitigate this. - Ranger is MAD. You need Dex, WIS, a decent STR (for your features using athletics), and a decent CON (for survivability and your concentration checks). So you probably, unless you sacrifice being decent at some of your other features, will fail a lot of concentration checks. Not only for HM, but also for your other spells. - You do not have any feature or spells that can help you for those checks. - You will probably need to invest in a feat, like warcaster or resilient (con). Them being half-feats helps, but as you are MAD, you also need to invest in many ability scores, so it does not help that much.
Personnaly, I would :
Add a way to help with concentrations checks in the class progression, maybe around level 6, like paladins. I would go with giving the ranger full Con saving throw proficiency at this level. Does not seem overpowered to me if you compare with the paladin's aura and seems thematic enought for a person that usually can walk for days in difficult terrain and is an expert at survival.
Add a way to boost Athletics rolls somewhere along the way (maybe add your proficiency bonus or wis modifier to those checks). Giving expertise in two skills instead of one at level 2 does not seem overpowered either.
Remove concentration on Beast sense - you can see through a familiar's eyes without concentration as a bonus action, all day long, after all. Being able to track your HM prey with beast sense would be fun and very thematic.
Just some small tweaks that would alleviate a lot of what is not fun with the class without being overpowered.
I do not think there is a "bad" class in the new PHB. I like the ranger enough to roll one for my next game.
I do not think that HM being the focus or requiring concentration is the problem. More exactly, I think it's a problem because of other design choices, those being:
- As noted, most of the ranger spells are also concentration. That being said, having a way to burn a bonus action to free cast HM a couple time a day helps a lot to mitigate this. - Ranger is MAD. You need Dex, WIS, a decent STR (for your features using athletics), and a decent CON (for survivability and your concentration checks). So you probably, unless you sacrifice being decent at some of your other features, will fail a lot of concentration checks. Not only for HM, but also for your other spells. - You do not have any feature or spells that can help you for those checks. - You will probably need to invest in a feat, like warcaster or resilient (con). Them being half-feats helps, but as you are MAD, you also need to invest in many ability scores, so it does not help that much.
Personnaly, I would :
Add a way to help with concentrations checks in the class progression, maybe around level 6, like paladins. I would go with giving the ranger full Con saving throw proficiency at this level. Does not seem overpowered to me if you compare with the paladin's aura and seems thematic enought for a person that usually can walk for days in difficult terrain and is an expert at survival.
Add a way to boost Athletics rolls somewhere along the way (maybe add your proficiency bonus or wis modifier to those checks). Giving expertise in two skills instead of one at level 2 does not seem overpowered either.
Remove concentration on Beast sense - you can see through a familiar's eyes without concentration as a bonus action, all day long, after all. Being able to track your HM prey with beast sense would be fun and very thematic.
Just some small tweaks that would alleviate a lot of what is not fun with the class without being overpowered.
You could help with the ability scores a bit. A STR of 10 is fine, A WIS of 14 is fine. Dump INT completely. Dump CHA. Then you can focus on DEX and CON. If you are using Standard Array
STR 12 DEX 15 CON 14 INT 10 WIS 13 CHA 8. Using ASI feat get your DEX to 20, Con 16 or 18, WIS 14 or 16.
I use point buy so my STR 10 DEX 15 CON 14 INT 10 WIS 14 CHA 8
I have been using finesse light weapons or ranged weapons so STR is not really an issue. I don't use heavy armor either. I am toying with taking Dual Wielding Feat and Defensive Dueling. I took the Tough Feat at LVL 1. So at LVL 20 my STR 10 DEX 20 CON 16 INT 10 WIS 16 CHA 8.
I have been duel wielding scimitars most of the time. My DEX has allowed me to use ranged weapons fairly well. I just made it to my first subclass level and I took Beast Master. I have noticed that I don't lose concentration as much when using ranged weapons. I might not take either of the above feats and go ranged only. Maybe Sharpshooter. I have set myself up so I don't have to make that decision yet.
So far I used my spells for out of combat or combat support. Goodberry and Cure Wounds are used alot but not exclusively.
I think overall they did a good job of making the 2024 Ranger better than the 2014 Ranger, don't much care for the new Favored Enemy or the capstone but there is nothing stopping me from playing the Ranger I want to play. If you like access to all the weapons, medium armor, shields, good skill set, versatile nature themed spells and an animal companion this is the class for you. I usually prefer a more Str based Ranger, so when it comes to stats I'm thinking of doing Farmer background and Dwarf for my species.
Str 17 Dex 13 Con 12 Int 8 Wis 16 Cha 8 with Point Buy, taking Archery fighting style would balance out my range attacks, skills would be Athletics, Nature, Animal Handling, Survival, and Perception with the early expertise in Survival. Goodberry and Speak With Animals for spells, (at level 1!), Heavy Crossbow, Battle Axe, Shield and Scale Armor. In my mind he's a pig farmer who was forced to take up his uncles old adventuring gear to protect his family and then make it on his own in the wilderness. Push and Topple seem like great masteries, especially in combination with Beastmaster, gonna get my Pig advantage as much as possible. Figure I'd take Crossbow Expert at level 4 and Great Weapon Master at level 8 (switching to a maul) for some extra damage. Interesting to note a Dwarf with a Con of 12 and the Tough feat is getting +4 HP per level, and a 25gp book on Flora/Fauna of the Realms would give you a nice +5 to most Nature checks.
Anyway, that's my concept, seems like everything's in order to me, as a Ranger lover from way back I give it a 4 out of 5, its not perfect but it still does what it should where it should.
I probably should have mentioned my Ranger is a Elf/Drow Farmer. His parents both failed Loth's test but managed to retain their full Drow bodies instead of being turned into Driders. My grandmother used all of her power and influence to get my parents out of the Underdark. They settled on a small farm far from any passage to the Underdark. A few years later I was born. My mother is a Druid and taught me a love of nature. My father is a Warrior and taught me to fight. They both taught me fierce independence and so I have vowed to leave my home and gain a name for myself doing heroic deeds of daring. :-)
My ranger rarely has to do con saves - because they rarely get hit. The issue I have with concentration isn't failing the saves, it's the fact that I had to intentionally drop the base combat spell I'm using (either Zephyr Strike or Hunter's Mark) to use any other spell, even something that only covers a single attack like Hail of Thorns. Dropping concentration from Hail of Thorns for 2024 will make it much more interesting to play, so I'm looking forward to that.
I think the other sadness that remains is that you can't have Hunter's Mark and Pass Without Trace both running, for the case where you're using the long term tracking aspect of HM. Of course, if you have two rangers in the party you're good to go. I'm not quite sure how I would solve that as a designer - for most situations they should both be concentration but it does seem like you should be able to do stealthy tracking.
My ranger rarely has to do con saves - because they rarely get hit. The issue I have with concentration isn't failing the saves, it's the fact that I had to intentionally drop the base combat spell I'm using (either Zephyr Strike or Hunter's Mark) to use any other spell, even something that only covers a single attack like Hail of Thorns. Dropping concentration from Hail of Thorns for 2024 will make it much more interesting to play, so I'm looking forward to that.
I think the other sadness that remains is that you can't have Hunter's Mark and Pass Without Trace both running, for the case where you're using the long term tracking aspect of HM. Of course, if you have two rangers in the party you're good to go. I'm not quite sure how I would solve that as a designer - for most situations they should both be concentration but it does seem like you should be able to do stealthy tracking.
The more I think on it, the more I think Hunter's Mark doesn't need concentration. Divine Favor doesn't have concentration, and it doesn't have target limitations. But, I'd remove it's ability to reapply it to different targets.
Yes, but it's a game balance issue. If all the classes had their features use different ability scores and all players had to choose which one to put emphasis on, that would be fine. So, it's not that MAD is bad in itself, it's bad only when one class is MAD and the others are not, which is the case here.
The MADness gets even worse if you're trying to use a non-ranged or non-Finesse weapon too, which is pretty common in the ranger fantasy niche. Especially now that Roving punishes dumping DEX and Beastmaster wants you to all-in on WIS.
I made a Lizardfolk Beastmaster Ranger that focuses on throwing a trident and spears while standing behind his pet. Thematically, this feels like exactly the kind of character concept Beastmaster Ranger should support. Mechanically I am spread super thin, am forced into being a Lizard Himbo with 8 INT and CHA if we don't roll for stats, and won't be able to take any cool feats because I need two stats at 20.
If they were going to punish Rangers for wearing Heavy Armor they should've added some kind of mechanic to relieve the MADness more. Maybe let rangers use CON or WIS instead of DEX for their AC calculations or something.
Right, I was thinking about Blade Bards. My bad.
You still have mirror image or blindness as a good low level defensive options which do not require concentration tough, and those make it less likely you will have to roll for a concentration check.
Also, Paladins and Eldritch Knight will often have a better AC, so they will not be required to make as much concentration saves as a Ranger.
Anyway, my point was that the ranger seems to be gish class that most rely on concentration checks, as their main feature and signature spell, and most of their spell list require concentration, while being at the same time the worst at maintaining concentration due to their lack of defensive options to mitigate dmg or boost those checks.
Giving them proficiency in con saves, say at level 6 (the same level paladins get their aura), or even just letting them add their wis modifier to concentration checks at this level, if the whole con save proficiency seems too much, would go a long way.
Then again, I'll will gladly play my character for a while, and maybe I'll realize the class is just fine as it is.
Prevously being mad was less of a problem not because the ranger tools have changed per se but because game expectations of optimization have made such elements change encounter design expectations.
Now I would often only take a 14 in dex and take archery fighting style to give a functional 16 for attacks . This would allow me to choose a stranger or a wis ranger build each with its own benefits. I even built some all stats 14 builds(note after race/background was applied) that were functional and fun.
Yes, but it's a game balance issue. If all the classes had their features use different ability scores and all players had to choose which one to put emphasis on, that would be fine. So, it's not that MAD is bad in itself, it's bad only when one class is MAD and the others are not, which is the case here.
Most of the classes are built around one or two scores, then the rest is gravy. I want to play a Bladelock? Charisma is all I need really, with maybe a bit of dex or con for survivability. All my features (attack rolls, damage rolls, spells) are tied to a single ability score. Then I can go crazy, making him a nature folk with some wis skills, or a strong man with decent athletics, or a stealthy rogueish warlock. I have more choices outside of my main shtick because my main shtick is secured by one or two scores.
Ranger? Sorry bud, but you willl struggle to get all of your main features working reliably, so your choice is not what cool flavor you want to add to those features, but what you decide to substract from them. I do not play the cool bladelock who is also a bit of a rogue, or the one that was a stong man in a circus, or the woodman who made a pact with the devil but is very good with animals and at survival.
No, I play the vanilla ranger that is not so good at climbing and swimming, or the vanilla ranger that has a difficult time casting his spells and following tracks, or the one that is very good with his spells and can climb like no other, but struggle to fire an arrow and stay hidden. Every choice feels like removing, not adding, something.
Also, about the "nature warrior" archetype The fact is, you can already buid a better "ranger" with other classes, which is a bit sad.
A wood elf (35 movement, longstrider and pass without trace), with the guide background (stealth, survival and magic initiate druid - take guidance for a reliable athletics and other skill checks boost, another cantrip like message, and say speak with animals) and 3 levels in vengeance paladin (you get HM and divine favor, and they can stack), dual wielding style, athletics and medecine and you will have a "magical nature warrior" that will outshine the ranger, with a cool magical steed as an animal companion and a big boost to concentration checks at level 6.
Or go human to trade the elf spells and movement for proficiencies in perception, animal handling, knowledge nature and another skill, say persuasion for dealing with the animals you speak with and that strange druid you encounter in a shack at the end of the world.
Fighters? Yeah, lot of feats, lot of options.
Build a dex battlemaster with decent wisdom score, Athletics, Stealth, Perception, Animal handling, and Survival and choose manoeuvres like ambush, evasive footwork, precision attack, etc. You now also can use second wind on skill checks, more weapon mastery for bait and switch tactics, and have more feats than other classes to gain more skills or expertise, or ritual caster to speak with animals, find a familiar and set Alarm to sleep in the woods withouth worries. And you can do that with all your class features working reliably all the time.
Or go wood elf for the spells, magic initiate druid, ritual caster and feytouched with an eldritch knight. Go Dex/int/wis with a bit of con, stealth/knowledge nature/perception/survival and investigation, some divination spells to navigate the woods, your second wind to boost skill checks when needed and thematic spells like find familiar, feather fall, fog cloud, longstrider, gust of wind, etc. There you go, another nature themed warrior that will outshine the ranger.
All that without any multiclassing...
The fact is, the ranger is not the best nor the most interresting "woodland tracker, fighter and explorer with a bit of magic" you can build. And, I don't know, I feel like it should be?
SAD hybrids are much less viable than they used to be. That bladelock? I hope you don't want feats. I think this is a much better system. now you choose, am I a caster or am I a melee. You spend your ASI feats appropriately, and those choices have weight. There's no longer a "proper way to win". The only reason that your EK beats out the ranger is because the EK is grabbing wizard spells, and they are much better than the spells the ranger gets. Ranger's spell list is the problem, not the class or general class design.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
The warlock has the exact same number of ASI than the ranger. I think I am not getting your point.
The Bladelock uses one ability score for melee attacks, dmg and spells. Ranger has to use two. On that front only, it's way easier to spend one ASI on a feat as a Warlock, as the ranger will need to use them to boost two ability scores instead of one.
The warlock, because of SAD can put more into con, so has a better chance to keep their concentration going. Ranger need to make concentration checks as much is not more than the warlock, but again, that's another ability score they have to invest in or a feat to spend.
But yes, I agree. A revised ranger spell list, which makes concentration easier and gradually drops concentration on some key spells, as I proposed earlier in this thread, seems like a good idea.
ASI yes. However, now feats are half feats, and none of them give you cha. So, you can boost your charisma OR you can take a feat that doesn't help your charisma, but helps you in melee. The str or dex character taking the same feats, gets a +1 to their str or dex as well. You can do it the old way, but you're going to fall behind. the people who are str or dex based when they take feats.
The ranger who wants the DW feat will be getting a bonus to his str or dex when he takes it. The cha warlock has to choose between the feat, or boosting cha and cannot do both at the same time.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Oh, good point. I missed that.
The idea of the free castings of HM is that you will be able to recast it without using slots so you don’t need to worry about losing concentration on it. As you said we will need to see how that actually plays out over the next year’s games. My suggestions on skills (something like jack of all trades/reliable talent/a free skilled feat) is to give rangers a better chance on more skills/rolls that may be coming off low stat skills. There some other things that might be useful there as well - like getting to add your PB to swim and climb checks if you have a swim/climb speed. Rangers are definitely MAD which is why I prefer to roll for stats - when I get those good/great sets of rolls I make a ranger, if I don’t I make something else. I think all the half feats are going to end up helping the ranger over all.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
The only problem I see with HM using conc, is that it prevents you from using other spells that use conc. With most of the good spells using that concentration, it's got a feel of having to choose between class features. I understand why rangers are unhappy with the HM focus, I don't like it either. But I don't think it makes the class bad.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Agreed, there are spells that I really wish didn’t have concentration like zephyr strike.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
I know they tested conc less HM, and found it to be overpowered. I'd really like to see the insight as to how. it was overpowered, because honestly I don't see that.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
I think non concentration HM would be massively overpowered if given at low level. If it came on later 10th level+ it would be fine. One of the bigger issues with it is that it lasts an hour. This can cause a lot of troubles. Divine Favor's short time is much more manageable.
I do not think there is a "bad" class in the new PHB. I like the ranger enough to roll one for my next game.
I do not think that HM being the focus or requiring concentration is the problem. More exactly, I think it's a problem because of other design choices, those being:
- As noted, most of the ranger spells are also concentration. That being said, having a way to burn a bonus action to free cast HM a couple time a day helps a lot to mitigate this.
- Ranger is MAD. You need Dex, WIS, a decent STR (for your features using athletics), and a decent CON (for survivability and your concentration checks). So you probably, unless you sacrifice being decent at some of your other features, will fail a lot of concentration checks. Not only for HM, but also for your other spells.
- You do not have any feature or spells that can help you for those checks.
- You will probably need to invest in a feat, like warcaster or resilient (con). Them being half-feats helps, but as you are MAD, you also need to invest in many ability scores, so it does not help that much.
Personnaly, I would :
Add a way to help with concentrations checks in the class progression, maybe around level 6, like paladins. I would go with giving the ranger full Con saving throw proficiency at this level. Does not seem overpowered to me if you compare with the paladin's aura and seems thematic enought for a person that usually can walk for days in difficult terrain and is an expert at survival.
Add a way to boost Athletics rolls somewhere along the way (maybe add your proficiency bonus or wis modifier to those checks). Giving expertise in two skills instead of one at level 2 does not seem overpowered either.
Remove concentration on Beast sense - you can see through a familiar's eyes without concentration as a bonus action, all day long, after all. Being able to track your HM prey with beast sense would be fun and very thematic.
Just some small tweaks that would alleviate a lot of what is not fun with the class without being overpowered.
You could help with the ability scores a bit. A STR of 10 is fine, A WIS of 14 is fine. Dump INT completely. Dump CHA. Then you can focus on DEX and CON. If you are using Standard Array
STR 12 DEX 15 CON 14 INT 10 WIS 13 CHA 8. Using ASI feat get your DEX to 20, Con 16 or 18, WIS 14 or 16.
I use point buy so my STR 10 DEX 15 CON 14 INT 10 WIS 14 CHA 8
I have been using finesse light weapons or ranged weapons so STR is not really an issue. I don't use heavy armor either. I am toying with taking Dual Wielding Feat and Defensive Dueling. I took the Tough Feat at LVL 1. So at LVL 20 my STR 10 DEX 20 CON 16 INT 10 WIS 16 CHA 8.
I have been duel wielding scimitars most of the time. My DEX has allowed me to use ranged weapons fairly well. I just made it to my first subclass level and I took Beast Master. I have noticed that I don't lose concentration as much when using ranged weapons. I might not take either of the above feats and go ranged only. Maybe Sharpshooter. I have set myself up so I don't have to make that decision yet.
So far I used my spells for out of combat or combat support. Goodberry and Cure Wounds are used alot but not exclusively.
I think overall they did a good job of making the 2024 Ranger better than the 2014 Ranger, don't much care for the new Favored Enemy or the capstone but there is nothing stopping me from playing the Ranger I want to play. If you like access to all the weapons, medium armor, shields, good skill set, versatile nature themed spells and an animal companion this is the class for you. I usually prefer a more Str based Ranger, so when it comes to stats I'm thinking of doing Farmer background and Dwarf for my species.
Str 17 Dex 13 Con 12 Int 8 Wis 16 Cha 8 with Point Buy, taking Archery fighting style would balance out my range attacks, skills would be Athletics, Nature, Animal Handling, Survival, and Perception with the early expertise in Survival. Goodberry and Speak With Animals for spells, (at level 1!), Heavy Crossbow, Battle Axe, Shield and Scale Armor. In my mind he's a pig farmer who was forced to take up his uncles old adventuring gear to protect his family and then make it on his own in the wilderness. Push and Topple seem like great masteries, especially in combination with Beastmaster, gonna get my Pig advantage as much as possible. Figure I'd take Crossbow Expert at level 4 and Great Weapon Master at level 8 (switching to a maul) for some extra damage. Interesting to note a Dwarf with a Con of 12 and the Tough feat is getting +4 HP per level, and a 25gp book on Flora/Fauna of the Realms would give you a nice +5 to most Nature checks.
Anyway, that's my concept, seems like everything's in order to me, as a Ranger lover from way back I give it a 4 out of 5, its not perfect but it still does what it should where it should.
I probably should have mentioned my Ranger is a Elf/Drow Farmer. His parents both failed Loth's test but managed to retain their full Drow bodies instead of being turned into Driders. My grandmother used all of her power and influence to get my parents out of the Underdark. They settled on a small farm far from any passage to the Underdark. A few years later I was born. My mother is a Druid and taught me a love of nature. My father is a Warrior and taught me to fight. They both taught me fierce independence and so I have vowed to leave my home and gain a name for myself doing heroic deeds of daring. :-)
My ranger rarely has to do con saves - because they rarely get hit. The issue I have with concentration isn't failing the saves, it's the fact that I had to intentionally drop the base combat spell I'm using (either Zephyr Strike or Hunter's Mark) to use any other spell, even something that only covers a single attack like Hail of Thorns. Dropping concentration from Hail of Thorns for 2024 will make it much more interesting to play, so I'm looking forward to that.
I think the other sadness that remains is that you can't have Hunter's Mark and Pass Without Trace both running, for the case where you're using the long term tracking aspect of HM. Of course, if you have two rangers in the party you're good to go. I'm not quite sure how I would solve that as a designer - for most situations they should both be concentration but it does seem like you should be able to do stealthy tracking.
The more I think on it, the more I think Hunter's Mark doesn't need concentration. Divine Favor doesn't have concentration, and it doesn't have target limitations. But, I'd remove it's ability to reapply it to different targets.
Removing concentration on HM would lead to OP builds, like stacking HM with Hex at level 2 and using 2 weapons for 3D6 each.
The MADness gets even worse if you're trying to use a non-ranged or non-Finesse weapon too, which is pretty common in the ranger fantasy niche. Especially now that Roving punishes dumping DEX and Beastmaster wants you to all-in on WIS.
I made a Lizardfolk Beastmaster Ranger that focuses on throwing a trident and spears while standing behind his pet. Thematically, this feels like exactly the kind of character concept Beastmaster Ranger should support. Mechanically I am spread super thin, am forced into being a Lizard Himbo with 8 INT and CHA if we don't roll for stats, and won't be able to take any cool feats because I need two stats at 20.
If they were going to punish Rangers for wearing Heavy Armor they should've added some kind of mechanic to relieve the MADness more. Maybe let rangers use CON or WIS instead of DEX for their AC calculations or something.