Turns out that Lightning Arrow does a bit more damage to a single target than most thought. You get to add your DEX mod and any other damage modifier outside of the bow/crossbow's normal damage because it turns the Ranged Weapon Damage dice to Lightning Damage Dice (i.e. 1d6, 1d8 or 1d10 turns to 4d8).
Also, don't forget that casting Lightning Arrow uses a Bonus Action. It goes off when you make a Ranged Weapon Attack and that requires the Attack action most of the time. That means you can still get an Extra Attack at "normal damage" after you got your Lightning arrow off. In most cases that will be (4d8(lightning arrow)+ 5(dex mod)) + (1d8(longbow) + 5(dex mod)) damage in a turn if both attacks hit. You could even add sharpshooter damage (on a hit) because it is a Ranged Attack.
Just looking for a clarification other than damage for this spell. Is this a one and done or use it for the entire duration of the spell (1 minute)?
It's just a one and done, I think the wording is just a bit confusing; it only works on your "next" ranged weapon attack during the duration, so the first attack you make in the duration is your "next" attack after casting the spell. If it worked on multiple it'd say "all attacks for the duration" or such.
The duration gives you the option of delaying the attack until a better moment, for example you could use held actions to prepare to attack, but the lightning arrow will only trigger when you actually make the attack, or you could ready the spell before entering a combat area.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
Hail of Thorns and Lightning Arrow are (in my mind) the ranger version of the paladin's divine smite.
Using a 3th level spell slot a paladin adds (straight average damage only) 18 damage to the attacks on their turn. Both of the above ranger spells add damage to the ranger's attacks but have some added good and bad considerations. The good is they benefit greatly from more than one initial target. The more the merrier! In fact, once you get up to and past about two or three effected creatures with one of their spells, rangers deal more damage than a paladin with a smite of the same level spell slot. The bad is what you gain in added damage from those other area of effects spells they miss out on one or two pings of Hunter's Mark. So a level three Hail of Thorns (hitting two creatures, taking the average of each creature making or failing the saving throw, and subtracting the lost Hunter's Mark damage) adds 17.75 damage to the ranger's attacks on their turn, but could be much more or much less, depending on the number of targets and saving throw results. A level three Lightning Arrow (hitting three creatures) would add an extra 20 damage!
I also like that hail of thorns and lightning arrow can be used with weapons thrown by the ranger. This REALLY helps me (in my mind and mechanically) with the idea of a two weapon fighting ranger. Not so much with the related fighting style, but with using short sword(s) and dagger(s), with this the melee ranger is able to throw a dagger and hit something like a small mod of goblins or other grouped creatures.
For the beast master rangers out there, lightning arrow (and others like it, hail of thorns, etc.) have an even greater benefit, damage wise. The beast master (using the beast to attack) gains all the same benefits from the spell's added damage, but only misses out on one ping of the lost hunter's mark.
It's dumb, damage die when making a ranged attack comes from a weapon, not an arrow. Hunting bow does d6 because projectile is shot from a bow of lesser draw weight compared to a long bow (d8). It's not about ammunision, so you should normally add your weapon dmg die, because your weapon affects power, precision and speed of a lightning arrow as well as normal arrow. If it doesn't and we say it's all magic, than dex modifier also should not applay to neither damage nor attack roll.
Ok. I'm confused. How have I been playing it wrong? I'm not seeing anything really new or overly ground breaking here. Has this been a problem for a lot of people or something?
Dinedan the Dexterity modifier doesn't come from the weapon either. It comes from your ability to help give that weapon it's precision. That does not all come from the bow but the user as well. This is accurate to real life as well. Using a bow still requires the dexterity and mental quickness to figure out the proper angle on top of the bow's ability to fire the arrow and your physical strength to draw the weapon and keep it drawn. A good Archer has all three in abundance. A bad archer is lacking one or more of these and it shows in their performance with the bow.
Ok. I'm confused. How have I been playing it wrong? I'm not seeing anything really new or overly ground breaking here. Has this been a problem for a lot of people or something?
Dinedan the Dexterity modifier doesn't come from the weapon either. It comes from your ability to help give that weapon it's precision. That does not all come from the bow but the user as well. This is accurate to real life as well. Using a bow still requires the dexterity and mental quickness to figure out the proper angle on top of the bow's ability to fire the arrow and your physical strength to draw the weapon and keep it drawn. A good Archer has all three in abundance. A bad archer is lacking one or more of these and it shows in their performance with the bow.
I imagine it is like the -5 to perception checks for creatures using darkvision. Just now widely known.
Ok. I'm confused. How have I been playing it wrong? I'm not seeing anything really new or overly ground breaking here. Has this been a problem for a lot of people or something?
Dinedan the Dexterity modifier doesn't come from the weapon either. It comes from your ability to help give that weapon it's precision. That does not all come from the bow but the user as well. This is accurate to real life as well. Using a bow still requires the dexterity and mental quickness to figure out the proper angle on top of the bow's ability to fire the arrow and your physical strength to draw the weapon and keep it drawn. A good Archer has all three in abundance. A bad archer is lacking one or more of these and it shows in their performance with the bow.
I imagine it is like the -5 to perception checks for creatures using darkvision. Just now widely known.
That's fair. Though I blame the dim light disadvantage perception check issue on the fact that there tends to be bit of under use of perception checks and a bit of an over use/over powering of passive perception.
Ok. I'm confused. How have I been playing it wrong? I'm not seeing anything really new or overly ground breaking here. Has this been a problem for a lot of people or something?
Dinedan the Dexterity modifier doesn't come from the weapon either. It comes from your ability to help give that weapon it's precision. That does not all come from the bow but the user as well. This is accurate to real life as well. Using a bow still requires the dexterity and mental quickness to figure out the proper angle on top of the bow's ability to fire the arrow and your physical strength to draw the weapon and keep it drawn. A good Archer has all three in abundance. A bad archer is lacking one or more of these and it shows in their performance with the bow.
I imagine it is like the -5 to perception checks for creatures using darkvision. Just now widely known.
That's fair. Though I blame the dim light disadvantage perception check issue on the fact that there tends to be bit of under use of perception checks and a bit of an over use/over powering of passive perception.
Ugg. I have issues with passive perception. It's a love hate thing for me. The optional Facing rule helps a lot of that issue along with the dim light obscurement bit.
Ok. I'm confused. How have I been playing it wrong? I'm not seeing anything really new or overly ground breaking here. Has this been a problem for a lot of people or something?
Dinedan the Dexterity modifier doesn't come from the weapon either. It comes from your ability to help give that weapon it's precision. That does not all come from the bow but the user as well. This is accurate to real life as well. Using a bow still requires the dexterity and mental quickness to figure out the proper angle on top of the bow's ability to fire the arrow and your physical strength to draw the weapon and keep it drawn. A good Archer has all three in abundance. A bad archer is lacking one or more of these and it shows in their performance with the bow.
I imagine it is like the -5 to perception checks for creatures using darkvision. Just now widely known.
That's fair. Though I blame the dim light disadvantage perception check issue on the fact that there tends to be bit of under use of perception checks and a bit of an over use/over powering of passive perception.
Ugg. I have issues with passive perception. It's a love hate thing for me. The optional Facing rule helps a lot of that issue along with the dim light obscurement bit.
i use an Active Vs. Passive system. If they are actively looking then they are focused on what or where they are looking. So it's much easier to miss things. Or even to fail notice things they might notice when they are just letting their senses and their mind just kind of do their own thing instead. It's also possible for very skilled people to fail things when they focus on it even though they've done it a hundred times and can often do it without thinking on it much. This is something that happens to real people alot. They do something that has been repeated so many times that they don't need to focus on it. But when they actually focus on every little thing they are doing with it they suddenly find themselves tripping up on sometimes even easy tasks.
Ok. I'm confused. How have I been playing it wrong? I'm not seeing anything really new or overly ground breaking here. Has this been a problem for a lot of people or something?
Dinedan the Dexterity modifier doesn't come from the weapon either. It comes from your ability to help give that weapon it's precision. That does not all come from the bow but the user as well. This is accurate to real life as well. Using a bow still requires the dexterity and mental quickness to figure out the proper angle on top of the bow's ability to fire the arrow and your physical strength to draw the weapon and keep it drawn. A good Archer has all three in abundance. A bad archer is lacking one or more of these and it shows in their performance with the bow.
I imagine it is like the -5 to perception checks for creatures using darkvision. Just now widely known.
That's fair. Though I blame the dim light disadvantage perception check issue on the fact that there tends to be bit of under use of perception checks and a bit of an over use/over powering of passive perception.
Ugg. I have issues with passive perception. It's a love hate thing for me. The optional Facing rule helps a lot of that issue along with the dim light obscurement bit.
i use an Active Vs. Passive system. If they are actively looking then they are focused on what or where they are looking. So it's much easier to miss things. Or even to fail notice things they might notice when they are just letting their senses and their mind just kind of do their own thing instead. It's also possible for very skilled people to fail things when they focus on it even though they've done it a hundred times and can often do it without thinking on it much. This is something that happens to real people alot. They do something that has been repeated so many times that they don't need to focus on it. But when they actually focus on every little thing they are doing with it they suddenly find themselves tripping up on sometimes even easy tasks.
Care to explain in greater detail?! I’m intrigued!
Turns out that Lightning Arrow does a bit more damage to a single target than most thought. You get to add your DEX mod and any other damage modifier outside of the bow/crossbow's normal damage because it turns the Ranged Weapon Damage dice to Lightning Damage Dice (i.e. 1d6, 1d8 or 1d10 turns to 4d8).
Also, don't forget that casting Lightning Arrow uses a Bonus Action. It goes off when you make a Ranged Weapon Attack and that requires the Attack action most of the time. That means you can still get an Extra Attack at "normal damage" after you got your Lightning arrow off. In most cases that will be (4d8(lightning arrow)+ 5(dex mod)) + (1d8(longbow) + 5(dex mod)) damage in a turn if both attacks hit. You could even add sharpshooter damage (on a hit) because it is a Ranged Attack.
Does the 2d8 for the enemies within 10 ft of the target count on the target as well? The wording kinda implies it does.
I've always played it as yes, the target takes 4d8+DEX on a hit, then they and everyone else within the blast takes a Dexterity save for the additional 2d8.
However some people disagree with that interpretation however I've always found the justification a tenuous; a common example is Arms of Hadar, which most would argue is not supposed to hit the caster (even though they're technically within the radius), though you could argue that the arms erupting "from" the caster implies an exception. The problem is that if you compare to Thunderclap then this explicitly makes an exception for the caster to prevent them from being included in taking the damage. On the other hand, the counter argument goes that Ice Knife, which is somewhat similar to Lightning Arrow (range attack plus blast), explicitly includes the original target. For each side of debate you can find spells that support or contradict each argument.
Ultimately my justification for dealing both sets of damage to the original target is that even with the added damage Lightning Arrow still does less damage to the original target than a 3rd level Fireball would so it's hardly OP, and while the damage to the original target scales faster, a Ranger can only upcast it to 5th level (and that requires a high character level that most people don't play to anyway). If a full caster were using it as an additional spell (e.g- a Bard through Magical Secrets) then that might change things slightly, but I still don't think it'd be so strong as to really matter.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
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You can find my published homebrew Spells here.
Don't forget critical hits
https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/122162/how-does-lightning-arrow-benefit-from-a-critical-hit
That is correct. Thank you for the link.
You can find my published homebrew Spells here.
WOW! I read and played that spell wrong from the get go!
Thank you!
Just looking for a clarification other than damage for this spell. Is this a one and done or use it for the entire duration of the spell (1 minute)?
It's just a one and done, I think the wording is just a bit confusing; it only works on your "next" ranged weapon attack during the duration, so the first attack you make in the duration is your "next" attack after casting the spell. If it worked on multiple it'd say "all attacks for the duration" or such.
The duration gives you the option of delaying the attack until a better moment, for example you could use held actions to prepare to attack, but the lightning arrow will only trigger when you actually make the attack, or you could ready the spell before entering a combat area.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
Thanks.
Hail of Thorns and Lightning Arrow are (in my mind) the ranger version of the paladin's divine smite.
Using a 3th level spell slot a paladin adds (straight average damage only) 18 damage to the attacks on their turn. Both of the above ranger spells add damage to the ranger's attacks but have some added good and bad considerations. The good is they benefit greatly from more than one initial target. The more the merrier! In fact, once you get up to and past about two or three effected creatures with one of their spells, rangers deal more damage than a paladin with a smite of the same level spell slot. The bad is what you gain in added damage from those other area of effects spells they miss out on one or two pings of Hunter's Mark. So a level three Hail of Thorns (hitting two creatures, taking the average of each creature making or failing the saving throw, and subtracting the lost Hunter's Mark damage) adds 17.75 damage to the ranger's attacks on their turn, but could be much more or much less, depending on the number of targets and saving throw results. A level three Lightning Arrow (hitting three creatures) would add an extra 20 damage!
I also like that hail of thorns and lightning arrow can be used with weapons thrown by the ranger. This REALLY helps me (in my mind and mechanically) with the idea of a two weapon fighting ranger. Not so much with the related fighting style, but with using short sword(s) and dagger(s), with this the melee ranger is able to throw a dagger and hit something like a small mod of goblins or other grouped creatures.
For the beast master rangers out there, lightning arrow (and others like it, hail of thorns, etc.) have an even greater benefit, damage wise. The beast master (using the beast to attack) gains all the same benefits from the spell's added damage, but only misses out on one ping of the lost hunter's mark.
It's dumb, damage die when making a ranged attack comes from a weapon, not an arrow. Hunting bow does d6 because projectile is shot from a bow of lesser draw weight compared to a long bow (d8). It's not about ammunision, so you should normally add your weapon dmg die, because your weapon affects power, precision and speed of a lightning arrow as well as normal arrow. If it doesn't and we say it's all magic, than dex modifier also should not applay to neither damage nor attack roll.
Ok. I'm confused. How have I been playing it wrong? I'm not seeing anything really new or overly ground breaking here. Has this been a problem for a lot of people or something?
Dinedan the Dexterity modifier doesn't come from the weapon either. It comes from your ability to help give that weapon it's precision. That does not all come from the bow but the user as well. This is accurate to real life as well. Using a bow still requires the dexterity and mental quickness to figure out the proper angle on top of the bow's ability to fire the arrow and your physical strength to draw the weapon and keep it drawn. A good Archer has all three in abundance. A bad archer is lacking one or more of these and it shows in their performance with the bow.
I imagine it is like the -5 to perception checks for creatures using darkvision. Just now widely known.
That's fair. Though I blame the dim light disadvantage perception check issue on the fact that there tends to be bit of under use of perception checks and a bit of an over use/over powering of passive perception.
Ugg. I have issues with passive perception. It's a love hate thing for me. The optional Facing rule helps a lot of that issue along with the dim light obscurement bit.
i use an Active Vs. Passive system. If they are actively looking then they are focused on what or where they are looking. So it's much easier to miss things. Or even to fail notice things they might notice when they are just letting their senses and their mind just kind of do their own thing instead. It's also possible for very skilled people to fail things when they focus on it even though they've done it a hundred times and can often do it without thinking on it much. This is something that happens to real people alot. They do something that has been repeated so many times that they don't need to focus on it. But when they actually focus on every little thing they are doing with it they suddenly find themselves tripping up on sometimes even easy tasks.
Care to explain in greater detail?! I’m intrigued!
Where is the poll option for, "I've have been using it right the whole time"?
Does the 2d8 for the enemies within 10 ft of the target count on the target as well? The wording kinda implies it does.
I've always played it as yes, the target takes 4d8+DEX on a hit, then they and everyone else within the blast takes a Dexterity save for the additional 2d8.
However some people disagree with that interpretation however I've always found the justification a tenuous; a common example is Arms of Hadar, which most would argue is not supposed to hit the caster (even though they're technically within the radius), though you could argue that the arms erupting "from" the caster implies an exception. The problem is that if you compare to Thunderclap then this explicitly makes an exception for the caster to prevent them from being included in taking the damage. On the other hand, the counter argument goes that Ice Knife, which is somewhat similar to Lightning Arrow (range attack plus blast), explicitly includes the original target. For each side of debate you can find spells that support or contradict each argument.
Ultimately my justification for dealing both sets of damage to the original target is that even with the added damage Lightning Arrow still does less damage to the original target than a 3rd level Fireball would so it's hardly OP, and while the damage to the original target scales faster, a Ranger can only upcast it to 5th level (and that requires a high character level that most people don't play to anyway). If a full caster were using it as an additional spell (e.g- a Bard through Magical Secrets) then that might change things slightly, but I still don't think it'd be so strong as to really matter.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.