I'm in a campaign and its my first time being a rogue. I feel like I have the roleplay part down but I'm having some issues with keeping up in terms of damage with my companions.
Kalashtar - lv. 5 - Phantom Rogue - S12 / D18 / C16 / I15 / W16 / Ch15 (that includes me bumping up D and C at lv4)
I just feel that the one stab at +7 and 1d8+4 of damage plus the 2d6 3d6 for sneak attack don't mean much when the people around me are doing 30+ damage each swing (rangers, barbarians, artificers). I know I can also do wails from the grave for the extra extra 2d6 but besides getting better weapons it feels like Zenavi will be doing very little when it comes to monster killing.
Does all this sound about right or am I missing something?
I'm in a campaign and its my first time being a rogue. I feel like I have the roleplay part down but I'm having some issues with keeping up in terms of damage with my companions.
Kalashtar - lv. 5 - Phantom Rogue - S12 / D18 / C16 / I15 / W16 / Ch15 (that includes me bumping up D and C at lv4)
I just feel that the one stab at +7 and 1d8+4 of damage plus the 2d6 for sneak attack don't mean much when the people around me are doing 30+ damage each swing (rangers, barbarians, artificers). I know I can also do wails from the grave for the extra extra 2d6 but besides getting better weapons it feels like Zenavi will be doing very little when it comes to monster killing.
Does all this sound about right or am I missing something?
Thanks!
So, first, Rogue DPR can't keep up with Great Weapon Master or Sharpshooter plus Extra Attacks. That's the way it is. Your primary job in the party is skill monkey.
Phantoms don't "get good" until level 9; I've seen at least one homebrew of the class that rearranges its features so it's more fun at lower levels, as ordinarily rogue subclasses give you the big seller at level 3. Right now, you're only better than other rogues at doing rogue things 3 times per long rest, and that will become functionally infinite times per long rest at level 9, which is quite the jump.
At level 9, your Sneak Attack damage will be (assuming Dex 20, which is a big assumption) 1d8+5d6 (crittable) + 5 + 3d6 (non-crittable) almost all of the time, which is pretty good. Ignoring crits and hits and just looking at raw numbers, that's 37.5. That's roughly equivalent to 2 attacks with a 1d6 weapon and Sharpshooter, and it doesn't cost a feat.
How you can improve this depends on whether that 1d8 weapon is a rapier or a longbow, and how you're generally fighting. Since you're a Kalashtar, I'm guessing it's a rapier - longbow proficiency would be tough for you to have. Are you hanging out next to the Barbarian, or pulling back? In other words, what's your bonus action doing? Are you disengaging? Doing nothing?
If your bonus action is available, switch to two shortswords. The drop from 1d8 to 1d6 on the first swing is less than you gain from the second swing (-1 in exchange for +3.5), and now you have two opportunities to sneak attack, in case the first misses.
Your per-hit damage is very, very high - what limits you is Sneak Attack's per-turn limit. If you have a Battlemaster Fighter or Order Cleric in your party, you are the best target for their ability to have someone else go on their turn. Likewise, if you have any casters in the party who can cast Dissonant Whispers, it's incredibly good on your melee opponent, because your opportunity attacks hit like a truck. In that vein, you might want to strongly consider the Sentinel feat, and possibly a whip.
Also, your additional damage can crit - sneak attack dice are dice, not a static, additive number. You should try to crit-fish. The easiest way I see for you to do that is to have a chat with your Barbarian. If the Barb can shove opponents prone, everyone attacking the opponent gets advantage, not just the Barb - and that's a lot of damage to add. If the Barb already has GWM this might be a big ask, but without it, they can do very strong work spending their first two attacks against a given opponent grappling and proning them, and then hacking at them with a one-hander while everyone else who has any melee piles in.
How are they doing 30+ each swing though? Also your sneak attack should be 3d6 at lvl 5?
As far as advice go...you could go for a crossbow and pick up crossbow expert and sharpshooter. Crossbow expert will allow you to take an extra attack as a bonus action, it's not going to accomplish much in terms of extra damage, but if you miss your first attack this is going to give you a second chance to deal sneak attack damage. Sharpshooter will let you take a -5 to hit, but give you +10 damage if you hit (which is how I imagine your friends are dealing so much damage).
How are they doing 30+ each swing though? Also your sneak attack should be 3d6 at lvl 5?
The dude's probably playing with some experienced folks. A zealot barbarian can easily hit above 30 on their intial hit with GWM, rage, and divine fury, and probably on the second hit with lucky rolls.
Anyways, OP, yeah. You'll never do as much damage as the big boys, but you can get close. I'd suggest taking up magic initiate feat when you can and pick up booming blade as a cantrip. Then, every turn you can disengage after attacking with booming blade and hope your target follows you. You're essentially going to adopt the arcane trickster style of fighting. Using that method of fighting, if you can sneak attack and your target to move on their turn, then you'll do about 40 damage a round at lvl 9.
Another method is to ask your DM to toss you a scimitar of speed or a dancing sword: rapier, then you can do the thing where you attack a target with your bonus action on your turn, and ready your action to attack "when your turn ends." You'll get two sneak attacks per round guaranteed (assuming the conditions for sneak are met) using this method, but you will end up using up your reaction and unable to move away from your target, so it risky.
How are they doing 30+ each swing though? Also your sneak attack should be 3d6 at lvl 5?
As far as advice go...you could go for a crossbow and pick up crossbow expert and sharpshooter. Crossbow expert will allow you to take an extra attack as a bonus action, it's not going to accomplish much in terms of extra damage, but if you miss your first attack this is going to give you a second chance to deal sneak attack damage. Sharpshooter will let you take a -5 to hit, but give you +10 damage if you hit (which is how I imagine your friends are dealing so much damage).
No Rogue should *ever* take Crossbow Expert. Sharpshooter, maybe. But CBE, never.
Sharpshooter is risky without Elven Accuracy, since you don't have Archery or many attacks - the shots you do have need to sink. OP is a Kalashtar, the ideal race for a bear totem barbarian, on a rogue chassis, so elf tricks like racial heavy crossbow or racial booming blade are out. They have to spend a feat to get anywhere, and that'll be at level 8, or use their incredible statline to multiclass, which is a bad idea right now - Phantoms need to get to level 9 as soon as possible so their subclass can function.
Otherwise, OP absolutely has the statline to take 1 level of Warlock (Genie, Dao), grabbing booming blade and the Crusher feat, and permanently adding pb damage to sneak attack, which is excellent. If I were building a Phantom with that statline at L10, that would probably be it. But OP already used L4 to render Con even, so Crusher is less tempting.
I really don't see why rogues shouldn't take crossbow expert.
It allows you to make more attacks, so more chances to land sneak attack. Even if you land your first attack, hey, it's an opportunity to deal more damage.
Also, if someone let's you use attacks of opportunity when you move them with crush, I think you might be misinterpreting the rules which state the following:
You can avoid provoking an opportunity attack by taking the Disengage action. You also don't provoke an opportunity attack when you teleport or when someone or something moves you without using your movement, action, or reaction. For example, you don't provoke an opportunity attack if an explosion hurls you out of a foe's reach or if gravity causes you to fall past an enemy.
Getting booming blade in one way or another is an option though, and it will add some damage, but considering you're playing a phantom rogue I suggest getting it through a magic initiate feat. Phantom rogues is one of the rogue archetypes that offer increasing benefits as you invest into them as your wails of the grave feature scales with sneak attack. At 13 you'll also get ghostwalk which is incredibly useful and I'd rather not delay it at all personally.
Crusher is for booming blade, not an OA - where did you get the OA idea from? And CBE is too expensive for the limited benefit a rogue gets. If you're not going to use the lack of loading on the thing *and* all of your damage is 1/turn anyway *and* you usually need to bonus action hide to sneak attack, CBE is generally just poor planning. You'll get a larger DPR increase from Sharpshooter by a wide margin in many cases - just being able to shoot into melee without worrying about cover is huge, and that's a third of the feat.
Mind you, elves and half-elves do all of this so well they're a league above everyone else, including that a high elf can just start with booming blade, if that's your jam. I prefer ranged rogues, so I've never actually booped that button, but it's a sexy button.
As mentioned, your sneak attack should be 3D6, not 2D6. As also mentioned, in a party of big damage dealers the Rogue's job is to focus on other things besides combat. Especially with over the top amazing stats like yours.
If the target willingly moves 5 feet or more before then, the target takes 1d8 thunder damage, and the spell ends.
Again, I don't see how crusher is more effective than CBE, because it's not going to activate the damage from booming blade either.
Neither do you need to hide for the sneak attack damage. If one of your allies are within 5 feet of the enemy you want to target, that's sufficient to trigger sneak attack, which is also very likely to occur considering how melee heavy this party is. If you're first in initiative you could either hide and immediately find a way to attack, or you could prepare an action to attack once an ally gets in melee range.
I guess if you use the steady aim optional feature (which is not a given) CBE becomes less useful, but still, landing two attacks against an enemy who has an ally of yours within 5 feet is still more damage than one attack.
I am not saying CBE is the end all be all feat for rogues, but I don't think taking it is detrimental in any way.
Sharpshooter might give you tons of damage, but it depends on the DM and your team. If the DM pays attention to cover and enemies often end up in situations where they get cover, or if your team is good at setting up situations where you get advantage, then sharpshooter might be well worth it. I am not sure if I'd take the -5 penalty to hit every round, since landing your sneak attack is going to be your main source of damage eventually, so it depends on the AC of your enemy.
Thanks y'all, yeah the 3d6 was a typo on my end. Like I said, I never really played a rogue before so it threw me off a little the damage but y'all make me feel better about it. And yes I do all the skill stuff for the most part. I mainly focus on rapier (or the occasional magical dagger) and leave the range for the casters. I know how the others do all the damage they do (raging and attacking recklessly work like a charm) and helps me sneak in, stab/sneak attack and either disengage or hide. Sadly in our campaign no multiclassing until lv.7
Thanks y'all, yeah the 3d6 was a typo on my end. Like I said, I never really played a rogue before so it threw me off a little the damage but y'all make me feel better about it. And yes I do all the skill stuff for the most part. I mainly focus on rapier (or the occasional magical dagger) and leave the range for the casters. I know how the others do all the damage they do (raging and attacking recklessly work like a charm) and helps me sneak in, stab/sneak attack and either disengage or hide. Sadly in our campaign no multiclassing until lv.7
That's a bingo, then. You get to shine and pull your weight with skill related stuff, the other pull their weight in combat. Just sit back, relax, and go in and stab a mutha when they least expect it. Teamwork! B)
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Howdy y'all,
I'm in a campaign and its my first time being a rogue. I feel like I have the roleplay part down but I'm having some issues with keeping up in terms of damage with my companions.
Kalashtar - lv. 5 - Phantom Rogue - S12 / D18 / C16 / I15 / W16 / Ch15 (that includes me bumping up D and C at lv4)
I just feel that the one stab at +7 and 1d8+4 of damage plus the
2d63d6 for sneak attack don't mean much when the people around me are doing 30+ damage each swing (rangers, barbarians, artificers). I know I can also do wails from the grave for the extra extra 2d6 but besides getting better weapons it feels like Zenavi will be doing very little when it comes to monster killing.Does all this sound about right or am I missing something?
Thanks!
So, first, Rogue DPR can't keep up with Great Weapon Master or Sharpshooter plus Extra Attacks. That's the way it is. Your primary job in the party is skill monkey.
Phantoms don't "get good" until level 9; I've seen at least one homebrew of the class that rearranges its features so it's more fun at lower levels, as ordinarily rogue subclasses give you the big seller at level 3. Right now, you're only better than other rogues at doing rogue things 3 times per long rest, and that will become functionally infinite times per long rest at level 9, which is quite the jump.
At level 9, your Sneak Attack damage will be (assuming Dex 20, which is a big assumption) 1d8+5d6 (crittable) + 5 + 3d6 (non-crittable) almost all of the time, which is pretty good. Ignoring crits and hits and just looking at raw numbers, that's 37.5. That's roughly equivalent to 2 attacks with a 1d6 weapon and Sharpshooter, and it doesn't cost a feat.
How you can improve this depends on whether that 1d8 weapon is a rapier or a longbow, and how you're generally fighting. Since you're a Kalashtar, I'm guessing it's a rapier - longbow proficiency would be tough for you to have. Are you hanging out next to the Barbarian, or pulling back? In other words, what's your bonus action doing? Are you disengaging? Doing nothing?
If your bonus action is available, switch to two shortswords. The drop from 1d8 to 1d6 on the first swing is less than you gain from the second swing (-1 in exchange for +3.5), and now you have two opportunities to sneak attack, in case the first misses.
Your per-hit damage is very, very high - what limits you is Sneak Attack's per-turn limit. If you have a Battlemaster Fighter or Order Cleric in your party, you are the best target for their ability to have someone else go on their turn. Likewise, if you have any casters in the party who can cast Dissonant Whispers, it's incredibly good on your melee opponent, because your opportunity attacks hit like a truck. In that vein, you might want to strongly consider the Sentinel feat, and possibly a whip.
Also, your additional damage can crit - sneak attack dice are dice, not a static, additive number. You should try to crit-fish. The easiest way I see for you to do that is to have a chat with your Barbarian. If the Barb can shove opponents prone, everyone attacking the opponent gets advantage, not just the Barb - and that's a lot of damage to add. If the Barb already has GWM this might be a big ask, but without it, they can do very strong work spending their first two attacks against a given opponent grappling and proning them, and then hacking at them with a one-hander while everyone else who has any melee piles in.
How are they doing 30+ each swing though? Also your sneak attack should be 3d6 at lvl 5?
As far as advice go...you could go for a crossbow and pick up crossbow expert and sharpshooter. Crossbow expert will allow you to take an extra attack as a bonus action, it's not going to accomplish much in terms of extra damage, but if you miss your first attack this is going to give you a second chance to deal sneak attack damage. Sharpshooter will let you take a -5 to hit, but give you +10 damage if you hit (which is how I imagine your friends are dealing so much damage).
The dude's probably playing with some experienced folks. A zealot barbarian can easily hit above 30 on their intial hit with GWM, rage, and divine fury, and probably on the second hit with lucky rolls.
Anyways, OP, yeah. You'll never do as much damage as the big boys, but you can get close. I'd suggest taking up magic initiate feat when you can and pick up booming blade as a cantrip. Then, every turn you can disengage after attacking with booming blade and hope your target follows you. You're essentially going to adopt the arcane trickster style of fighting. Using that method of fighting, if you can sneak attack and your target to move on their turn, then you'll do about 40 damage a round at lvl 9.
Another method is to ask your DM to toss you a scimitar of speed or a dancing sword: rapier, then you can do the thing where you attack a target with your bonus action on your turn, and ready your action to attack "when your turn ends." You'll get two sneak attacks per round guaranteed (assuming the conditions for sneak are met) using this method, but you will end up using up your reaction and unable to move away from your target, so it risky.
No uote from ArcticTraveler >>
No Rogue should *ever* take Crossbow Expert. Sharpshooter, maybe. But CBE, never.
Sharpshooter is risky without Elven Accuracy, since you don't have Archery or many attacks - the shots you do have need to sink. OP is a Kalashtar, the ideal race for a bear totem barbarian, on a rogue chassis, so elf tricks like racial heavy crossbow or racial booming blade are out. They have to spend a feat to get anywhere, and that'll be at level 8, or use their incredible statline to multiclass, which is a bad idea right now - Phantoms need to get to level 9 as soon as possible so their subclass can function.
Otherwise, OP absolutely has the statline to take 1 level of Warlock (Genie, Dao), grabbing booming blade and the Crusher feat, and permanently adding pb damage to sneak attack, which is excellent. If I were building a Phantom with that statline at L10, that would probably be it. But OP already used L4 to render Con even, so Crusher is less tempting.
I really don't see why rogues shouldn't take crossbow expert.
It allows you to make more attacks, so more chances to land sneak attack. Even if you land your first attack, hey, it's an opportunity to deal more damage.
Also, if someone let's you use attacks of opportunity when you move them with crush, I think you might be misinterpreting the rules which state the following:
Getting booming blade in one way or another is an option though, and it will add some damage, but considering you're playing a phantom rogue I suggest getting it through a magic initiate feat. Phantom rogues is one of the rogue archetypes that offer increasing benefits as you invest into them as your wails of the grave feature scales with sneak attack. At 13 you'll also get ghostwalk which is incredibly useful and I'd rather not delay it at all personally.
Crusher is for booming blade, not an OA - where did you get the OA idea from? And CBE is too expensive for the limited benefit a rogue gets. If you're not going to use the lack of loading on the thing *and* all of your damage is 1/turn anyway *and* you usually need to bonus action hide to sneak attack, CBE is generally just poor planning. You'll get a larger DPR increase from Sharpshooter by a wide margin in many cases - just being able to shoot into melee without worrying about cover is huge, and that's a third of the feat.
Mind you, elves and half-elves do all of this so well they're a league above everyone else, including that a high elf can just start with booming blade, if that's your jam. I prefer ranged rogues, so I've never actually booped that button, but it's a sexy button.
As mentioned, your sneak attack should be 3D6, not 2D6. As also mentioned, in a party of big damage dealers the Rogue's job is to focus on other things besides combat. Especially with over the top amazing stats like yours.
Again, I don't see how crusher is more effective than CBE, because it's not going to activate the damage from booming blade either.
Neither do you need to hide for the sneak attack damage. If one of your allies are within 5 feet of the enemy you want to target, that's sufficient to trigger sneak attack, which is also very likely to occur considering how melee heavy this party is. If you're first in initiative you could either hide and immediately find a way to attack, or you could prepare an action to attack once an ally gets in melee range.
I guess if you use the steady aim optional feature (which is not a given) CBE becomes less useful, but still, landing two attacks against an enemy who has an ally of yours within 5 feet is still more damage than one attack.
I am not saying CBE is the end all be all feat for rogues, but I don't think taking it is detrimental in any way.
Sharpshooter might give you tons of damage, but it depends on the DM and your team. If the DM pays attention to cover and enemies often end up in situations where they get cover, or if your team is good at setting up situations where you get advantage, then sharpshooter might be well worth it. I am not sure if I'd take the -5 penalty to hit every round, since landing your sneak attack is going to be your main source of damage eventually, so it depends on the AC of your enemy.
Thanks y'all, yeah the 3d6 was a typo on my end. Like I said, I never really played a rogue before so it threw me off a little the damage but y'all make me feel better about it. And yes I do all the skill stuff for the most part. I mainly focus on rapier (or the occasional magical dagger) and leave the range for the casters. I know how the others do all the damage they do (raging and attacking recklessly work like a charm) and helps me sneak in, stab/sneak attack and either disengage or hide. Sadly in our campaign no multiclassing until lv.7
That's a bingo, then. You get to shine and pull your weight with skill related stuff, the other pull their weight in combat. Just sit back, relax, and go in and stab a mutha when they least expect it. Teamwork! B)