This is not a character I want to build but a thought experiment. I was thinking about ways to get absurd amounts of damage on a sturdy chassis. Rogue sneak attack came to mind of course, combined with ways of getting lots of critical hits. I came up with this:
Half elf Fighter (Champion) 3, Paladin 6, Rogue 11. Starting stats using point buy: S13 D16 C14 I9 W8 H16. (Alternately drop 2 points of charisma and stick to variant human for the feat).
Offensively this character attacks twice a turn (or 4 times with action surge) and can generate advantage with oath of vengeance or a familiar. They crit on a 19, so even before action surge they're critting on 34.4% of rounds (57% with action surge). Between sneak attack and their 3rd level slots for smite, they can add 12d6+8d8 (78) damage to those critical hits, though only 12d6 (42) extra damage at range. They also have two fighting styles.
Defensively they have good hit dice, all armor proficiencies (I'd slap on half plate, a shield, and defense fighting style for AC20), access to the shield and shield of faith spells, and uncanny dodge. Their saves are great: +10/+6/+11/+2/+2/+6, evasion, and Elvish advantage vs charm before any ASIs. And 30 points of laying on hands.
In utility, they have wizard cantrips, access to 2nd level paladin and wizard spells, a steed (making this guy a mounted archer?) and potentially a familiar, 3 extra skills, darkvision, expertise, and reliable talent. Who cares if they get disadvantage on stealth from their heavy armor if the lowest possible stealth roll they can get is a 25? Do the same with athletics and they might be able to perma-grapple someone physically weak.
In spellcasting they might find bless and shield of faith useful. And against weak will saves, wrathful smite.
Progression: If you go Ftr1, then Pal6, then Rog1, then Ftr3, then Rog11, you can do it without being too weak at any level except 5.
Role playing: Um... seeking vengeance by hook or by crook? Not too bright or steady. Perhaps some exiled/murdered lord's loyal retainer or retainer's son. Maybe another PC or NPC can be that noble.
What makes this better than a straight Rogue-Fighter? Saves, more spells, smites, and oath of vengeance. What makes this better than a straight Paladin-rogue? Improved crits and action surge.
Is this cool? Unimpressive? Been done before? Can you think of better ways to do this?
Replace Rogue 11 with Bard 10 (Whispers), change up Fighter 3 (Champion) to Fighter 4 (Echo Knight). You get a ton more spells slots to smite with, can nova better through Echo Knights Unleash Incarnation ability, get better all round checks through Jack of all Trades and have access to any 2 spells from any spell list thats 5th lvl or lower (Magical Secrets). You also get other useful Bard stuff like Song of Rest.
You lose Reliable Talent and that is pretty harsh. You lose 1d6 damage when comparing Sneak Attack to Psychic Blades, however this is mitigated by the fact that Psychic Blades do psychic damage which is less resisted and the fact that you do not need to meet sneak attack conditions to trigger it. You also crit a little less, but thats the tradeoff for better nova potential.
You will get to save a few ability points as you can now be STR and CHA based instead of being DEX and CHA based with 13 STR needed for multiclassing.
Progression wise you can keep to a similar formula: Fighter 1, Paly 6, Fighter 2 or 3 (depending if you want the ASI early) then Bard 10.
I'm working just with the PHB here. Also, I wasn't going for a particularly good nova. Yes, this character can nova all right, but it also can do consistent offense and defense without expending anything, which is why I went for rogue over bard, which I agree generally goes with Paladin much better.
In terms of resistance, once you get a magic shortsword, dagger, bow or rapier, it's off to the races.
Also this character is much more effective at ranged damage, against say dragons. My paladin/bard struggles at range and has to make do with his spells.
Ah PHB only this changes things I need a little rethink. But I have a couple of questions for you. Firstly if you want to use ranged attacks do you have to waste an action first to put away your shield? Second question why are you wearing medium armor? I am assuming you are going to max DEX, max DEX with Studded Leather has same AC as Half Plate.
At early levels he can wear medium armor, but you're right that eventually he'll switch to light I suppose. It might also depend what magical armors are found.
Good point on the shield, I hadn't thought about that. I guess he can put the shield on when heading into a close quarters dungeon and take it off when in the outdoors.
After having a little think I feel you should go STR based Half Elf with ability scores of STR 16 DEX 13 CON 14 INT 8 WIS 9 CHA 16. Pretty much your original build but I would swap 2 levels of Rogue for Barbarian. Crit fishing is way better when you can get advantage and nobody does advantage like a Barbarian's Reckless Attack. What is the tradeoff I hear you ask well you lose Reliable Talent which is sad but it isn't as bad as it sounds since you have to wait until level 20 to get it and the vast majority of games don't hit that level and you lose out on 1d6 of sneak damage.
Do you lose spell slots I hear you ask, well funnily enough with the way multiclassing spellslots work you actually don't lose any spell slots. You do however learn a couple less spells but with the AT's restrictions and your low INT I don't really think it matters too much since you probably won't be learning too many useful spells in the first place.
What about dragons and stuff that your melee weapons can't reach I hear you ask? Well you got me there, sadly you have to downgrade from a bow to throwing darts or daggers but on the upside they can still trigger Sneak Attack and you can now have your shield equipped where ever you go.
I don't like it. When I ran the numbers, this character's damage potential didn't really get realized until they got a few levels of rogue in. At 12th level they really took off. Delay that 2 more levels and your campaign will be over before you see it come together!
Hmm in that case how about dropping the Fighter levels instead? Reckless Attack will be better that critting on a 19 and you can start getting to your Rogue levels earlier because you only need 2 levels of Barbarian as opposed to 3 Fighter.
Paladin 6 is too much paladin if you're only after being a crit machine - 2 or 4 is the natural stopping point. And Champion is bad and should feel bad for existing. And Arcane Trickster levels should be multiples of 3 whenever possible.
Since you'll need to dump stat strength to make this work properly, a warlock dip is practically mandatory, unless you can get your Dex up, in which case it's merely a good idea - any Rogue with the charisma for it should take a 1-dip in genielock.
The build probably looks best as approximately an end result of Arcane Trickster 12/Genielock 4/Paladin 4, with some tweaking possible - AT 12/GL 1 /Pal 2 gets you all the absolutely best goodies, so past that it's about thr direction you want to go in. Could even use the spare levels for adding some fighter in, if you really wanted: AT 12/Pal 2/ Eldritch Knight 6 would be serious business, as would AT 12/EK 3/Pal 2/GL 3.
I only have access to the PHB, so I can't use 'genielock'.
The idea is to create large odds of getting a crit for doubling damage from sneak attack and paladin smites. The plan was to get multiple attacks and an improved critical range. This requires 5 levels in a martial class, but you're right that all that paladin is unnecessary. I just love that aura of protection. Stupid of me, this isn't the build for that.
I think you're on to something with Pal2 and more fighter levels, but I value crit range over extra smite damage.
Sooo...
Fighter(Champion) 5, Rogue (Arcane trickster) 13, Paladin 2. Primarily fights with a rapier and shield, but isn't bad with a bow.
Gets 2 attacks with advantage thanks to versatile trickster. If one crits (34.4% chance), apply sneak attack and a lvl3 smite for 1d8+5+14d6+8d8 (87.5 average) damage (plus 1d8+5 (9.5) from the other attack). If neither crits, can use action surge. If you really need to go all out, this character has enough slots to smite on all four attacks. If 8 dice fail to score you any 19s or 20s, you can still do 4d8 + 20 + 7d6 + 20d8 (152.5) damage with four regular hits with a smite on each. If one of them is a crit, add an extra 7d6+4d8 (42.5) damage.
Yes, there are builds that do more damage. This build also tanks damage well: the reaction can be used for uncanny dodge (very useful against critical hits), has access to any armor and shields and the shield spell if necessary. I won't claim it's the best build out there for consistent single-target damage and defense, just that it's a good one.
Strength doesn't have to be dumped; all you really need is to amp up Dex.
The real question is how many arcane trickster levels to divert to things like paladin2 or barbarian2 for smite and/or reckless attack: none, two, or four.
The problem I see with your new build is that it takes 20 levels to get guaranteed advantage with 2 attacks plus the ability to smite while also having sneak attacks. Dropping Fighter for Barbarian lets you start living your dream from level 8.
Champion doubles the critical threat range and provides action surge, which combined is far better than guaranteed advantage. There are lots of other ways to get advantage, such as aid from a familiar which could be provided by just 3 levels of rogue. Plus you could use your bonus action for, say, another attack with an offhand weapon. If you get 3 attacks with advantage, the probability of a crit rises to 47%, or 65% with 5 attacks thanks to action surge. Also barbarian doesn't guarantee advantage if the character is using a bow.
Yes you are correct that there are many ways to gain advantage to your attacks but my point is there is no easier way than just 2 levels of Barbarian. Familiars are a bit iffy for me because they are inconsistent. They have a separate initiative to you which makes their Help Action unreliable as it grants advantage to the first attack against the target. Also it only works for one attack so you will need to find other ways to generate advantage to the other 4 attacks you plan on possibly unleashing. Not to mention Familiars are pretty frail and will die to any attack or aoe spell.
Concerning the offhand attack with a bonus action through dual wielding the Barbarian can do the same thing. Anyway in my opinion it comes down to consistency to hit and guaranteed sneak damage vs higher chance to crit but having to find other ways to generate advantage and do sneak damage.
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This is not a character I want to build but a thought experiment. I was thinking about ways to get absurd amounts of damage on a sturdy chassis. Rogue sneak attack came to mind of course, combined with ways of getting lots of critical hits. I came up with this:
Half elf Fighter (Champion) 3, Paladin 6, Rogue 11. Starting stats using point buy: S13 D16 C14 I9 W8 H16. (Alternately drop 2 points of charisma and stick to variant human for the feat).
Offensively this character attacks twice a turn (or 4 times with action surge) and can generate advantage with oath of vengeance or a familiar. They crit on a 19, so even before action surge they're critting on 34.4% of rounds (57% with action surge). Between sneak attack and their 3rd level slots for smite, they can add 12d6+8d8 (78) damage to those critical hits, though only 12d6 (42) extra damage at range. They also have two fighting styles.
Defensively they have good hit dice, all armor proficiencies (I'd slap on half plate, a shield, and defense fighting style for AC20), access to the shield and shield of faith spells, and uncanny dodge. Their saves are great: +10/+6/+11/+2/+2/+6, evasion, and Elvish advantage vs charm before any ASIs. And 30 points of laying on hands.
In utility, they have wizard cantrips, access to 2nd level paladin and wizard spells, a steed (making this guy a mounted archer?) and potentially a familiar, 3 extra skills, darkvision, expertise, and reliable talent. Who cares if they get disadvantage on stealth from their heavy armor if the lowest possible stealth roll they can get is a 25? Do the same with athletics and they might be able to perma-grapple someone physically weak.
In spellcasting they might find bless and shield of faith useful. And against weak will saves, wrathful smite.
Progression: If you go Ftr1, then Pal6, then Rog1, then Ftr3, then Rog11, you can do it without being too weak at any level except 5.
Role playing: Um... seeking vengeance by hook or by crook? Not too bright or steady. Perhaps some exiled/murdered lord's loyal retainer or retainer's son. Maybe another PC or NPC can be that noble.
What makes this better than a straight Rogue-Fighter? Saves, more spells, smites, and oath of vengeance. What makes this better than a straight Paladin-rogue? Improved crits and action surge.
Is this cool? Unimpressive? Been done before? Can you think of better ways to do this?
Replace Rogue 11 with Bard 10 (Whispers), change up Fighter 3 (Champion) to Fighter 4 (Echo Knight). You get a ton more spells slots to smite with, can nova better through Echo Knights Unleash Incarnation ability, get better all round checks through Jack of all Trades and have access to any 2 spells from any spell list thats 5th lvl or lower (Magical Secrets). You also get other useful Bard stuff like Song of Rest.
You lose Reliable Talent and that is pretty harsh. You lose 1d6 damage when comparing Sneak Attack to Psychic Blades, however this is mitigated by the fact that Psychic Blades do psychic damage which is less resisted and the fact that you do not need to meet sneak attack conditions to trigger it. You also crit a little less, but thats the tradeoff for better nova potential.
You will get to save a few ability points as you can now be STR and CHA based instead of being DEX and CHA based with 13 STR needed for multiclassing.
Progression wise you can keep to a similar formula: Fighter 1, Paly 6, Fighter 2 or 3 (depending if you want the ASI early) then Bard 10.
I'm working just with the PHB here. Also, I wasn't going for a particularly good nova. Yes, this character can nova all right, but it also can do consistent offense and defense without expending anything, which is why I went for rogue over bard, which I agree generally goes with Paladin much better.
In terms of resistance, once you get a magic shortsword, dagger, bow or rapier, it's off to the races.
Also this character is much more effective at ranged damage, against say dragons. My paladin/bard struggles at range and has to make do with his spells.
Ah PHB only this changes things I need a little rethink. But I have a couple of questions for you. Firstly if you want to use ranged attacks do you have to waste an action first to put away your shield? Second question why are you wearing medium armor? I am assuming you are going to max DEX, max DEX with Studded Leather has same AC as Half Plate.
At early levels he can wear medium armor, but you're right that eventually he'll switch to light I suppose. It might also depend what magical armors are found.
Good point on the shield, I hadn't thought about that. I guess he can put the shield on when heading into a close quarters dungeon and take it off when in the outdoors.
After having a little think I feel you should go STR based Half Elf with ability scores of STR 16 DEX 13 CON 14 INT 8 WIS 9 CHA 16. Pretty much your original build but I would swap 2 levels of Rogue for Barbarian. Crit fishing is way better when you can get advantage and nobody does advantage like a Barbarian's Reckless Attack. What is the tradeoff I hear you ask well you lose Reliable Talent which is sad but it isn't as bad as it sounds since you have to wait until level 20 to get it and the vast majority of games don't hit that level and you lose out on 1d6 of sneak damage.
Do you lose spell slots I hear you ask, well funnily enough with the way multiclassing spellslots work you actually don't lose any spell slots. You do however learn a couple less spells but with the AT's restrictions and your low INT I don't really think it matters too much since you probably won't be learning too many useful spells in the first place.
What about dragons and stuff that your melee weapons can't reach I hear you ask? Well you got me there, sadly you have to downgrade from a bow to throwing darts or daggers but on the upside they can still trigger Sneak Attack and you can now have your shield equipped where ever you go.
Well hope this helps, have fun in your games.
I don't like it. When I ran the numbers, this character's damage potential didn't really get realized until they got a few levels of rogue in. At 12th level they really took off. Delay that 2 more levels and your campaign will be over before you see it come together!
Hmm in that case how about dropping the Fighter levels instead? Reckless Attack will be better that critting on a 19 and you can start getting to your Rogue levels earlier because you only need 2 levels of Barbarian as opposed to 3 Fighter.
Paladin 6 is too much paladin if you're only after being a crit machine - 2 or 4 is the natural stopping point. And Champion is bad and should feel bad for existing. And Arcane Trickster levels should be multiples of 3 whenever possible.
Since you'll need to dump stat strength to make this work properly, a warlock dip is practically mandatory, unless you can get your Dex up, in which case it's merely a good idea - any Rogue with the charisma for it should take a 1-dip in genielock.
The build probably looks best as approximately an end result of Arcane Trickster 12/Genielock 4/Paladin 4, with some tweaking possible - AT 12/GL 1 /Pal 2 gets you all the absolutely best goodies, so past that it's about thr direction you want to go in. Could even use the spare levels for adding some fighter in, if you really wanted: AT 12/Pal 2/ Eldritch Knight 6 would be serious business, as would AT 12/EK 3/Pal 2/GL 3.
I only have access to the PHB, so I can't use 'genielock'.
The idea is to create large odds of getting a crit for doubling damage from sneak attack and paladin smites. The plan was to get multiple attacks and an improved critical range. This requires 5 levels in a martial class, but you're right that all that paladin is unnecessary. I just love that aura of protection. Stupid of me, this isn't the build for that.
I think you're on to something with Pal2 and more fighter levels, but I value crit range over extra smite damage.
Sooo...
Fighter(Champion) 5, Rogue (Arcane trickster) 13, Paladin 2. Primarily fights with a rapier and shield, but isn't bad with a bow.
Gets 2 attacks with advantage thanks to versatile trickster. If one crits (34.4% chance), apply sneak attack and a lvl3 smite for 1d8+5+14d6+8d8 (87.5 average) damage (plus 1d8+5 (9.5) from the other attack). If neither crits, can use action surge. If you really need to go all out, this character has enough slots to smite on all four attacks. If 8 dice fail to score you any 19s or 20s, you can still do 4d8 + 20 + 7d6 + 20d8 (152.5) damage with four regular hits with a smite on each. If one of them is a crit, add an extra 7d6+4d8 (42.5) damage.
Yes, there are builds that do more damage. This build also tanks damage well: the reaction can be used for uncanny dodge (very useful against critical hits), has access to any armor and shields and the shield spell if necessary. I won't claim it's the best build out there for consistent single-target damage and defense, just that it's a good one.
Strength doesn't have to be dumped; all you really need is to amp up Dex.
The real question is how many arcane trickster levels to divert to things like paladin2 or barbarian2 for smite and/or reckless attack: none, two, or four.
The problem I see with your new build is that it takes 20 levels to get guaranteed advantage with 2 attacks plus the ability to smite while also having sneak attacks. Dropping Fighter for Barbarian lets you start living your dream from level 8.
Champion doubles the critical threat range and provides action surge, which combined is far better than guaranteed advantage. There are lots of other ways to get advantage, such as aid from a familiar which could be provided by just 3 levels of rogue. Plus you could use your bonus action for, say, another attack with an offhand weapon. If you get 3 attacks with advantage, the probability of a crit rises to 47%, or 65% with 5 attacks thanks to action surge. Also barbarian doesn't guarantee advantage if the character is using a bow.
Yes you are correct that there are many ways to gain advantage to your attacks but my point is there is no easier way than just 2 levels of Barbarian. Familiars are a bit iffy for me because they are inconsistent. They have a separate initiative to you which makes their Help Action unreliable as it grants advantage to the first attack against the target. Also it only works for one attack so you will need to find other ways to generate advantage to the other 4 attacks you plan on possibly unleashing. Not to mention Familiars are pretty frail and will die to any attack or aoe spell.
Concerning the offhand attack with a bonus action through dual wielding the Barbarian can do the same thing. Anyway in my opinion it comes down to consistency to hit and guaranteed sneak damage vs higher chance to crit but having to find other ways to generate advantage and do sneak damage.