I made this Subclass for Sorcerer that is based on the powers of a Lich. The focus is on using Speak with Dead to gain long lasting buffs that can augment or support your playstyle depending on the dead people you talk to. It's not supposed to be similar to the Necromancy Wizard, even though it's a caster that uses necromancy, because it operates in an entirely different way with a different relationship to Death Magic. There's also some other fun Lich-y things thrown in to help live up to the fantasy of inheriting a Lich's powers.
Please give it a try and provide some feedback. In particular I need more people testing the Boons of the Dead buffs and the different combinations you can make. Let me know what you find!
- The spell list looks good and flavorful - Death Mastery seems a little overtuned, even if it only comes online in the most dire of circumstances. I'd cut it down to one of those two "death save" buffs and add something that is always available. - Boons look fun and customizable, but I think it might be a bit much to start with 2 and go up to 4 (especially with the +1 to attacks and save DC from IS built into the chassis). That's a lot of buffs. I'd suggest starting at 1 and MAYBE going up to 3 by level 18 (probably keep it at 2 at level 14). That said, I'd also make them easier to get. Having to find a corpse to speak to is a barrier that, while flavorful, I think is too much of a logistical burden. I feel like it will either be really hard to even get one boon, or the DM just handwaves it and it becomes too easy to get those 2-4. My suggestion would be to tie it to Innate Sorcery (I think all subclasses should have leaned harder into that). Perhaps choose one when you go mage rage (two at level 14)? - Death March my gut feeling is that it's a bit much, but I haven't played high tier games, so that might be off. I just feel like I'd rather have a long lasting buff as a subclass capstone (again, probably keying off of IS) than a once per day attack with riders.
Final thought after writing all that: I think leaning into the gish options is what makes this overtuned as is. Potentially getting martial weapon profs with CHA bonus plus +2 AC (to your already 15 AC with Mage Armor and +2 more if you pick up Lightly Armored and a shield) with the ability to cast the shield spell, while then also being nearly impossible to keep down if you DO actually drop to 0, seems pretty powerful at level 4. That said, I'm not great at comparing classes/subclasses, so maybe that's in line with other gish options.
Thanks for the feedback! If you get a chance to test out a Gish build with the Subclass, please do.
Responses:
-- I'm so glad you like the spell list! I spent hours trying to figure out the type of spells every kind of Lich would have. I also really hate expanded spell lists that give you spells you already have access to in the base class, so I made sure to limit how often that happens here.
-- I'm definitely aware that Death Mastery becomes a potential problem in later levels. When you first get it it's incredibly expensive and only for emergencies, though that was the intent. Lich are famously hard to keep dead, so I wanted something that can mimic that power, and it scales with your level and resources. I don't personally have an issue with it not always being available though, given how powerful the Boons are and how long they last (up to 5 days).
-- I'd be open to reducing the maximum amount of Boons you can have at early levels, though I think having 4 of these buffs in Tier 3 is far less problematic than it seems. Perhaps I make the number of Boons start at 1 and then increase at certain Sorcerer levels like 8, 12, and 16 to mirror other increases in power. I'll also say that unless your campaign has 0 Humanoid enemies you're unlikely to have trouble finding a corpse. Also most cities and larger towns have graveyards, if you're ok with doing some digging.
-- Tbh Death March is just "Hurl Through Hell" from the Fiend Warlock but re-flavored and given an extra CC effect through the Frightened condition to justify it being a Level 18 feature instead of Level 14. This is just something I personally like with Subclass Capstones, a big cinematic special move that you have limited uses of. But I'd be open to increase the SP cost or reduce the damage.
-- I think you meant Level 6. Though if you're trying to maximize your Spells I doubt you'll have Light or Medium Armor and Shields by level 6, but I can definitely see it becoming a potential issue in later levels if you don't mind being a very squishy Gish in terms of HP. So I'd love to see the results of more characters taken to Tier 3 and beyond.
I appreciate you taking a long look at the Subclass. Thank you.
What if Vecna was your grandpa? Introducing the Lichborne Sorcerer!
https://www.dndbeyond.com/subclasses/2592382-lichborne
I made this Subclass for Sorcerer that is based on the powers of a Lich. The focus is on using Speak with Dead to gain long lasting buffs that can augment or support your playstyle depending on the dead people you talk to. It's not supposed to be similar to the Necromancy Wizard, even though it's a caster that uses necromancy, because it operates in an entirely different way with a different relationship to Death Magic. There's also some other fun Lich-y things thrown in to help live up to the fantasy of inheriting a Lich's powers.
Please give it a try and provide some feedback. In particular I need more people testing the Boons of the Dead buffs and the different combinations you can make. Let me know what you find!
Just took a look (haven't tested anything yet).
Initial thoughts:
- The spell list looks good and flavorful
- Death Mastery seems a little overtuned, even if it only comes online in the most dire of circumstances. I'd cut it down to one of those two "death save" buffs and add something that is always available.
- Boons look fun and customizable, but I think it might be a bit much to start with 2 and go up to 4 (especially with the +1 to attacks and save DC from IS built into the chassis). That's a lot of buffs. I'd suggest starting at 1 and MAYBE going up to 3 by level 18 (probably keep it at 2 at level 14). That said, I'd also make them easier to get. Having to find a corpse to speak to is a barrier that, while flavorful, I think is too much of a logistical burden. I feel like it will either be really hard to even get one boon, or the DM just handwaves it and it becomes too easy to get those 2-4. My suggestion would be to tie it to Innate Sorcery (I think all subclasses should have leaned harder into that). Perhaps choose one when you go mage rage (two at level 14)?
- Death March my gut feeling is that it's a bit much, but I haven't played high tier games, so that might be off. I just feel like I'd rather have a long lasting buff as a subclass capstone (again, probably keying off of IS) than a once per day attack with riders.
Final thought after writing all that:
I think leaning into the gish options is what makes this overtuned as is. Potentially getting martial weapon profs with CHA bonus plus +2 AC (to your already 15 AC with Mage Armor and +2 more if you pick up Lightly Armored and a shield) with the ability to cast the shield spell, while then also being nearly impossible to keep down if you DO actually drop to 0, seems pretty powerful at level 4. That said, I'm not great at comparing classes/subclasses, so maybe that's in line with other gish options.
Thanks for the feedback! If you get a chance to test out a Gish build with the Subclass, please do.
Responses:
-- I'm so glad you like the spell list! I spent hours trying to figure out the type of spells every kind of Lich would have. I also really hate expanded spell lists that give you spells you already have access to in the base class, so I made sure to limit how often that happens here.
-- I'm definitely aware that Death Mastery becomes a potential problem in later levels. When you first get it it's incredibly expensive and only for emergencies, though that was the intent. Lich are famously hard to keep dead, so I wanted something that can mimic that power, and it scales with your level and resources. I don't personally have an issue with it not always being available though, given how powerful the Boons are and how long they last (up to 5 days).
-- I'd be open to reducing the maximum amount of Boons you can have at early levels, though I think having 4 of these buffs in Tier 3 is far less problematic than it seems. Perhaps I make the number of Boons start at 1 and then increase at certain Sorcerer levels like 8, 12, and 16 to mirror other increases in power. I'll also say that unless your campaign has 0 Humanoid enemies you're unlikely to have trouble finding a corpse. Also most cities and larger towns have graveyards, if you're ok with doing some digging.
-- Tbh Death March is just "Hurl Through Hell" from the Fiend Warlock but re-flavored and given an extra CC effect through the Frightened condition to justify it being a Level 18 feature instead of Level 14. This is just something I personally like with Subclass Capstones, a big cinematic special move that you have limited uses of. But I'd be open to increase the SP cost or reduce the damage.
-- I think you meant Level 6. Though if you're trying to maximize your Spells I doubt you'll have Light or Medium Armor and Shields by level 6, but I can definitely see it becoming a potential issue in later levels if you don't mind being a very squishy Gish in terms of HP. So I'd love to see the results of more characters taken to Tier 3 and beyond.
I appreciate you taking a long look at the Subclass. Thank you.