So I was thinking for my campaigns from now on. To just let warlocks use charisma as their attack stat no matter what subclass. I've had more than one player now feel like they have to pick hex blade especially if they want to multi class. A decent Melee warlock has to have A Dex ,chr and con already not to mention if they want to play something like a Druid or barbarian multi class. Hexblade feels like 2 or 3 bard colleges or cleric subclasses merged together. Hex would still be the only one to give you aaaaaalllllll the other stuff still making it the most busted imo. But it wouldn't be the only one to not make it even more MAD hungry. Is this a bad idea? Is there some lost text in another edition that makes this even more busted. Just a Dm trying to let flavor and fun keep up with busted builds.lol
That's not a bad idea. I mean if some one goes pact of the chain or tome they aren't to worried about weapons anyway. Just wanted to do something so my players don't have to A. spam eldrich blast. Or B. Try to juggle four stats. Thanks for the input!!
Hexblade is an exceptionl way to reduce MADness in a gish multiclass. A level of hexblade for example makes a paladin far less MAD. An armorer artificer can use intelligence to attack but only using the weapon provide with their arcane armour (which are not as good as many normal weapons). Shillelagh is limietd to a quarterstaff or club.
There is no way for a sorcerer to use charisma with his weapon attacks or a wizard to use intelligence, should that be the case as well so an eldritch knight can concentrate on intelligence by taking a level of wizard? That ups the power of multiclassing enormously so that any single class is sub-optimal.
Hexblade is insaely front loaded to the point where probably the majority of optimised builds included a level of hexblade, other warlocks the ability to attack with charisma will switch some of those optimised builds to undead (making them more powerful than a hexblade dip therwise they would not switch) but not a lot else. The problem isn't just that optimisers feel compellled ot take a level of hexblade if that is extended to hexblade or undead (the only real options for a dip) it is still a problem. I would much rather see single class or a dip in something else be more viable.
Multiclass is an optional rule and particualrly with warlock I see there needs to in story reasons to multiclass. If a sorcerer, paladin or whatever takes a level of warlock at (say) level 2 their has to be a patron who has an interest in the character and something they want ot get out of them, how does that patron fell when there offer of more power is rejected potentially making them less able to fulfil their wishes? All this needs to be explored when a player wants ot take a warlock dip not just I want to make a pact with a powerful enitiy (that also just happens to want to make a pact with me) for no reason other than so I can wield a sword using my power of personality..
No. I do not think that would be a good idea and I don't really agree with it either.
Any Warlock can be a decent melee character and I would say that an undead Warlock optimized for melee stacks up well against a Hexblade. I would argue with the extra necrotic damage, temp hps, frightened affect and at high levels the damage resistance, it is generally better in melee than a Hexblade (if build and spell selections support melee).
1. The Fear affect you impose with undead Warlock is going to be pretty powerful in combat, more so than the difference in having a 16 or a 20 in your attack stat. This is especially important if you take advantage of the mobility aspect of it. After you hit an enemy, if they fail their save you can back away and they can't advance on you on their turn. You do take an AOO, but that both uses their reaction (allowing others to kite in on the enemy) and usually it means you take 1 attack on your turn instead of 2 or more on theirs. If you have a Goblin or the Mobility feat you can do this even better.
2. Grave touched is going to add a reliable damage turn after turn while in form of dread and by 6th level that is going to be half your battles or more.
2. Strength-based magic items are some of the most common in the game. Things like guantlets of Ogre Power and potiions of Giant Strength. These are even better on a dex build than on a strength build because you can use them for attack and damage on any weapon, including finesse weapons.
3. Constitution is not as necesary as many think. With Armor of Agathys and Fiendish Vigor available you can run a 10 or 12 constitution pretty easily with any Warlock and with undead and form of dread you blow it out of the water.
4. If you want to be a melee character you don't need to maximize charisma because the spells you will be running don't have saving throws associated with them. This enables you to take feats like moderately armored
Build 1:
V. Human: S16, D14,C12,Ch16 - Moderately armored at 1st level, GWM at 4th level, Fey Touched at 8th level (Hex), Shadow touched at 12th level (Cause Fear). Eldritch Mind, Fiendish Vigor, Improved Pact Weapon, Relentless Hex, Lifedrinker, thirsting blade. This gives you great mobility options (frighten then misty step away), control options through upcast cause fear. Use a pole arm for reach and even more control.
Build 2:
Mountain Dwarf: S17, D14, C12, Ch16 - Crusher at 4th level (fight with a Warhammer or maul), Strength ASI, Fey Touched (Hex), booming Blade and Green Flame Blade - Relentless hex, maddening Hex, Fiendish Vigor, Eldritch Mind, Protection of the Talisman, Rebuke of the Talisman.
Hit a target, frighten them and move them so they can't move back in to attack you.
This guy gets an opportunity attack at 15 feet and reduces move by 10 and additionally attacks on his own turn reducing move by 10 and has a 15 foot reach, meaning he can attack from outside reach of almost any enemy and frighten them so they can't advance on him. He can double this up against multiple enemies - attack and frighten one of them, hit the other and reduce movement, back away without an aoo, when guy 2 advances hit him again with your AOO and reduce movement by another 20 probably making it so he can't even get to you.
Build 4:
Goblin: D16, C14, W10, Ch17 - gift of the gem dragon, Dex ASI, Dex ASI - Armor of Shadows, Eldritch Mind, Fiendish Vigor, improved pact weapon, thirsting blade, lifedrinker
Attack-frighten-disengage. If one gets close to you and hits you or if a frightened guy hits you in melee with his first attack throw him off of you.
There's a lot of very good points however I am lucky enough to have a group where I don't have to worry about them optimizing out the wazzu or min maxing. Also I have no problem in admitng when something was too powerful and and I mistake. Then reworking it with my players to make it more balanced. And in my opinion a wizard does get to use his int mod to attack as EVERTHING goes off of int. Also I feel wizard an sorrcer are Strictly casters. True it's complete the damage and have amazing concentration spells Some clerics give heavy armor and aren't too bad and melee or have crazy healing. Both Having multiple options to do.so. Meanwhile if you want to play a melee warlock hope you like the same hex things over and over again. I guess this is just a personal gripe. We're all just a little tired of hex blade in any build with warlock. lol
There's a lot of very good points however I am lucky enough to have a group where I don't have to worry about them optimizing out the wazzu or min maxing. Also I have no problem in admitng when something was too powerful and and I mistake. Then reworking it with my players to make it more balanced. And in my opinion a wizard does get to use his int mod to attack as EVERTHING goes off of int. Also I feel wizard an sorrcer are Strictly casters. True it's complete the damage and have amazing concentration spells Some clerics give heavy armor and aren't too bad and melee or have crazy healing. Both Having multiple options to do.so. Meanwhile if you want to play a melee warlock hope you like the same hex things over and over again. I guess this is just a personal gripe. We're all just a little tired of hex blade in any build with warlock. lol
I get it. I don't like playing Hexblade myself either, but if you are not optimizers that is even more reason to try another Warlock. Go for a blaster, you can do that on any warlock without optimization at all.
For single class Hexblades are good but not outstanding the likes of Genie, Undead and Fiend are just as good (depending on the length of the campaign, the front loading of hexblade means they are strong at lw levels less strong at high levles). I don't think you have the issue you have with something like cleric where optimisers will always pick Twilight.
The issue with hexblade is if you are looking to see if a dip will improve your non-warlock character hexblade is so often the best option, whether it is for a fighter with many attacks wanting hexblades curse, a Paladin or Valor/Sword Bard wanting t use charisma for their weapon attacks or a sorcerer looking to up their AC without losing spell slot progression.
So I was thinking for my campaigns from now on. To just let warlocks use charisma as their attack stat no matter what subclass. I've had more than one player now feel like they have to pick hex blade especially if they want to multi class. A decent Melee warlock has to have A Dex ,chr and con already not to mention if they want to play something like a Druid or barbarian multi class. Hexblade feels like 2 or 3 bard colleges or cleric subclasses merged together. Hex would still be the only one to give you aaaaaalllllll the other stuff still making it the most busted imo. But it wouldn't be the only one to not make it even more MAD hungry. Is this a bad idea? Is there some lost text in another edition that makes this even more busted. Just a Dm trying to let flavor and fun keep up with busted builds.lol
I think it'd be better to tie all CHA attack stat stuff to pact of the blade, rather than the whole class.
That's not a bad idea. I mean if some one goes pact of the chain or tome they aren't to worried about weapons anyway. Just wanted to do something so my players don't have to A. spam eldrich blast. Or B. Try to juggle four stats. Thanks for the input!!
Hexblade is an exceptionl way to reduce MADness in a gish multiclass. A level of hexblade for example makes a paladin far less MAD. An armorer artificer can use intelligence to attack but only using the weapon provide with their arcane armour (which are not as good as many normal weapons). Shillelagh is limietd to a quarterstaff or club.
There is no way for a sorcerer to use charisma with his weapon attacks or a wizard to use intelligence, should that be the case as well so an eldritch knight can concentrate on intelligence by taking a level of wizard? That ups the power of multiclassing enormously so that any single class is sub-optimal.
Hexblade is insaely front loaded to the point where probably the majority of optimised builds included a level of hexblade, other warlocks the ability to attack with charisma will switch some of those optimised builds to undead (making them more powerful than a hexblade dip therwise they would not switch) but not a lot else. The problem isn't just that optimisers feel compellled ot take a level of hexblade if that is extended to hexblade or undead (the only real options for a dip) it is still a problem. I would much rather see single class or a dip in something else be more viable.
Multiclass is an optional rule and particualrly with warlock I see there needs to in story reasons to multiclass. If a sorcerer, paladin or whatever takes a level of warlock at (say) level 2 their has to be a patron who has an interest in the character and something they want ot get out of them, how does that patron fell when there offer of more power is rejected potentially making them less able to fulfil their wishes? All this needs to be explored when a player wants ot take a warlock dip not just I want to make a pact with a powerful enitiy (that also just happens to want to make a pact with me) for no reason other than so I can wield a sword using my power of personality..
No. I do not think that would be a good idea and I don't really agree with it either.
Any Warlock can be a decent melee character and I would say that an undead Warlock optimized for melee stacks up well against a Hexblade. I would argue with the extra necrotic damage, temp hps, frightened affect and at high levels the damage resistance, it is generally better in melee than a Hexblade (if build and spell selections support melee).
1. The Fear affect you impose with undead Warlock is going to be pretty powerful in combat, more so than the difference in having a 16 or a 20 in your attack stat. This is especially important if you take advantage of the mobility aspect of it. After you hit an enemy, if they fail their save you can back away and they can't advance on you on their turn. You do take an AOO, but that both uses their reaction (allowing others to kite in on the enemy) and usually it means you take 1 attack on your turn instead of 2 or more on theirs. If you have a Goblin or the Mobility feat you can do this even better.
2. Grave touched is going to add a reliable damage turn after turn while in form of dread and by 6th level that is going to be half your battles or more.
2. Strength-based magic items are some of the most common in the game. Things like guantlets of Ogre Power and potiions of Giant Strength. These are even better on a dex build than on a strength build because you can use them for attack and damage on any weapon, including finesse weapons.
3. Constitution is not as necesary as many think. With Armor of Agathys and Fiendish Vigor available you can run a 10 or 12 constitution pretty easily with any Warlock and with undead and form of dread you blow it out of the water.
4. If you want to be a melee character you don't need to maximize charisma because the spells you will be running don't have saving throws associated with them. This enables you to take feats like moderately armored
Build 1:
V. Human: S16, D14,C12,Ch16 - Moderately armored at 1st level, GWM at 4th level, Fey Touched at 8th level (Hex), Shadow touched at 12th level (Cause Fear). Eldritch Mind, Fiendish Vigor, Improved Pact Weapon, Relentless Hex, Lifedrinker, thirsting blade. This gives you great mobility options (frighten then misty step away), control options through upcast cause fear. Use a pole arm for reach and even more control.
Build 2:
Mountain Dwarf: S17, D14, C12, Ch16 - Crusher at 4th level (fight with a Warhammer or maul), Strength ASI, Fey Touched (Hex), booming Blade and Green Flame Blade - Relentless hex, maddening Hex, Fiendish Vigor, Eldritch Mind, Protection of the Talisman, Rebuke of the Talisman.
Hit a target, frighten them and move them so they can't move back in to attack you.
Build 3:
Bugbear: S17, D14, C10, Ch16 - Slasher 4th level, PAM 8th level, ASI 12th level - Eldritch Mind, Fiendish Vigor, Improved Pact Weapon, Relentless Hex, Lifedrinker, thirsting blade
This guy gets an opportunity attack at 15 feet and reduces move by 10 and additionally attacks on his own turn reducing move by 10 and has a 15 foot reach, meaning he can attack from outside reach of almost any enemy and frighten them so they can't advance on him. He can double this up against multiple enemies - attack and frighten one of them, hit the other and reduce movement, back away without an aoo, when guy 2 advances hit him again with your AOO and reduce movement by another 20 probably making it so he can't even get to you.
Build 4:
Goblin: D16, C14, W10, Ch17 - gift of the gem dragon, Dex ASI, Dex ASI - Armor of Shadows, Eldritch Mind, Fiendish Vigor, improved pact weapon, thirsting blade, lifedrinker
Attack-frighten-disengage. If one gets close to you and hits you or if a frightened guy hits you in melee with his first attack throw him off of you.
There's a lot of very good points however I am lucky enough to have a group where I don't have to worry about them optimizing out the wazzu or min maxing. Also I have no problem in admitng when something was too powerful and and I mistake. Then reworking it with my players to make it more balanced. And in my opinion a wizard does get to use his int mod to attack as EVERTHING goes off of int. Also I feel wizard an sorrcer are Strictly casters. True it's complete the damage and have amazing concentration spells Some clerics give heavy armor and aren't too bad and melee or have crazy healing. Both Having multiple options to do.so. Meanwhile if you want to play a melee warlock hope you like the same hex things over and over again. I guess this is just a personal gripe. We're all just a little tired of hex blade in any build with warlock. lol
I get it. I don't like playing Hexblade myself either, but if you are not optimizers that is even more reason to try another Warlock. Go for a blaster, you can do that on any warlock without optimization at all.
For single class Hexblades are good but not outstanding the likes of Genie, Undead and Fiend are just as good (depending on the length of the campaign, the front loading of hexblade means they are strong at lw levels less strong at high levles). I don't think you have the issue you have with something like cleric where optimisers will always pick Twilight.
The issue with hexblade is if you are looking to see if a dip will improve your non-warlock character hexblade is so often the best option, whether it is for a fighter with many attacks wanting hexblades curse, a Paladin or Valor/Sword Bard wanting t use charisma for their weapon attacks or a sorcerer looking to up their AC without losing spell slot progression.
I'd like to thank everybody for their input on this nobody's page. You've all been very helpful!