Can you use Voice of the Chain Master to stay behind cover and view enemies through your familiar's eyes then cast ranged spell attacks with advantage at them or spells that require DC saves?
You would have to be hidden (i.e. first taking the hide) in order to gain advantage on your attacks, but you could absolutely cast spells in this way. The caveat is when it comes to total cover. RAW, in order to target something for a spell, you need to have a clear path to it. Even though you have sight of the target through your familiar, your spell would still hit the cover between you and your foe before it hits your intended target. But since you can deliver spells with a range of touch, using something like lightning lure would work perfectly fine!
This is another HUGE limiting factor when trying this tactic:
"as an Action, you can see through your familiar's eyes and hear what it hears until the start of your next turn."
Either using quicken spell, a bonus action spell, or the fighter's Action Surge would be the only way to cast using the viewpoint of your familiar. This is in addition to meeting the "clear path" caveat. Unfortunately, the spell would still originate from your position and require not encountering a blocking object/feature. Even Spell Sniper does not eliminate full cover, just allows the caster to have more precise aim to the exposed locations of the target. It has nothing to do with sight, but the energy literally dissipating against the cover it seems.
One thing that it could aid is the placement of AoE spells to better maximize target coverage depending on how your DM uses the fog of war.
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IMHO, Earthdawn is still the best fantasy realm, Shadowrun is the best Sci-Fi realm, and Dark Sun is the best D&D realm.
Ah but Voice of the Chain Master doesn't say anything about taking an Action. simply says that "You can communicate telepathically with your familiar and perceive through your familiar’s senses as long as you are on the same plane of existence." Would this effect only extend your range or would it make it a constant passive ability?
Also I would argue that you could cast ranged spells on targets as long as they aren't "ranged spell attacks" that would require a direct line of attack. I could see casting Produce Flames on a location seen through your familiars eyes and causing flames to erupt out of the ground beneath your target.
My thoughts with "ranged spell attacks" would be, could you Darkseid Omega beam style bend and Eldritch Blast or Firebolt around a corner in a corridor to hit a creature standing out in the open?
Can you use Voice of the Chain Master to stay behind cover and view enemies through your familiar's eyes then cast ranged spell attacks with advantage at them or spells that require DC saves?
Through obscurement yes, and you would get advantage.
My actual favorite use of this is for combining with misty step if you are swallowed or something.
Ah but Voice of the Chain Master doesn't say anything about taking an Action. simply says that "You can communicate telepathically with your familiar and perceive through your familiar’s senses as long as you are on the same plane of existence." Would this effect only extend your range or would it make it a constant passive ability?
Ah but Voice of the Chain Master doesn't say anything about taking an Action. simply says that "You can communicate telepathically with your familiar and perceive through your familiar’s senses as long as you are on the same plane of existence." Would this effect only extend your range or would it make it a constant passive ability?
I would agree and I think this is pretty clear RAW. If it was limited it would be worded differently, it would say: "when you look through your familiars senses you can be any distance as long as you are on the same plane"
If you interpret it to say you still need to use an action and are still blinded then it is a really weak invocation.
Also I would argue that you could cast ranged spells on targets as long as they aren't "ranged spell attacks" that would require a direct line of attack. I could see casting Produce Flames on a location seen through your familiars eyes and causing flames to erupt out of the ground beneath your target.
My thoughts with "ranged spell attacks" would be, could you Darkseid Omega beam style bend and Eldritch Blast or Firebolt around a corner in a corridor to hit a creature standing out in the open?
I think this is up to interpretation, but the way I interpret it, and the way the only DM I played with this invocation interprets it is if it is an attack the target can not be behind complete cover. He can be on the other side of a darkness spell or the other side of a fog cloud and if so you would have advantage on the attack (you can see him but he can't see you), but something like a wall will stop a spell attack.
A save spell or cojuration or misty step, it does not matter as long as the area the familiar is viewing is within the spells range.
Ah but Voice of the Chain Master doesn't say anything about taking an Action. simply says that "You can communicate telepathically with your familiar and perceive through your familiar’s senses as long as you are on the same plane of existence." Would this effect only extend your range or would it make it a constant passive ability?
If you interpret it to say you still need to use an action and are still blinded then it is a really weak invocation.
The invocation is an enhancement of the spells range with the ability to speak with your own voice through your familiar, nothing more. RAW, all it does is affect the range of communication as unlimited from 100'. Nothing else changes about the Find Familiar spell. It also does not inform you of which forms your familiar could take, that it rolls initiative, it can attack, etc, so why would it affect the need to use an Action to gain the enhanced benefit of the invocation?
I agree, it does seem weak until you realize how limiting 100' can be in a larger dungeon battle map. In an outside environment, 100' is nothing. Your familiar can be on the other side of Waterdeep and still in communication with you at all times, even being used to have a conversation without using a spell slot. At higher levels when characters can teleport all over the world with greater ease, being able to leave your familiar behind or scout ahead from the other side of the continent can also be a valuable tool.
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IMHO, Earthdawn is still the best fantasy realm, Shadowrun is the best Sci-Fi realm, and Dark Sun is the best D&D realm.
Ah but Voice of the Chain Master doesn't say anything about taking an Action. simply says that "You can communicate telepathically with your familiar and perceive through your familiar’s senses as long as you are on the same plane of existence." Would this effect only extend your range or would it make it a constant passive ability?
If you interpret it to say you still need to use an action and are still blinded then it is a really weak invocation.
The invocation is an enhancement of the spells range with the ability to speak with your own voice through your familiar, nothing more. RAW, all it does is affect the range of communication as unlimited from 100'. Nothing else changes about the Find Familiar spell. It also does not inform you of which forms your familiar could take, that it rolls initiative, it can attack, etc, so why would it affect the need to use an Action to gain the enhanced benefit of the invocation?
I agree, it does seem weak until you realize how limiting 100' can be in a larger dungeon battle map. In an outside environment, 100' is nothing. Your familiar can be on the other side of Waterdeep and still in communication with you at all times, even being used to have a conversation without using a spell slot. At higher levels when characters can teleport all over the world with greater ease, being able to leave your familiar behind or scout ahead from the other side of the continent can also be a valuable tool.
RIght, and there has never been a limitation on the range for popping it back into a pocket dimension and letting it reappear within 30 feet of you, so once it is done dealing with what you needed on the other side of the continent, snap your fingers and it is back by your side ready for another task. So many uses for a chain familiar with voice of the chain master it is crazy.
RAI, it still takes an Action to see through your familiar senses, at least according to Crawford. RAW, it doesn't, the invocation does exactly what it says it does, it never says it's an enhancement to the spell, or refer to the spell at all (there are other ways of getting Familiars).
It would be very simple to write:"You can communicate telepathically with your familiar and *use an action to* perceive through your familiar’s senses as long as you are on the same plane of existence", but that's not what they wrote.
The invocation is an enhancement of the spells range with the ability to speak with your own voice through your familiar, nothing more. RAW, all it does is affect the range of communication as unlimited from 100'. Nothing else changes about the Find Familiar spell. It also does not inform you of which forms your familiar could take, that it rolls initiative, it can attack, etc, so why would it affect the need to use an Action to gain the enhanced benefit of the invocation?
The Find Familiar spell does not allow you to perceive through your familiar's senses, the action noted in the spell is only for sight, hearing and special senses. Perceiving through your familiar's senses is an entirely new thing granted only by the invocation, just like getting a swim speed or a fly speed is a new thing granted by the Investment of Chainmaster invocation. It has no bearing on what is in the spell, and you can still use an action to accomplish what the spell says, although it would be redundant in almost every case.
Here is the relevant wording from each:
Find Familiar: "... While your familiar is within 100 feet of you, you can communicate with it telepathically. Additionally, as an Action, you can see through your familiar's eyes and hear what it hears until the start of your next turn ...., During this time, you are deaf and blind with regard to your own senses"
Voice of the Chain Master:"You can communicate telepathically with your familiar and perceive through your familiar's senses as long as you are on the same plane of existence. "
Three things on the underlined wording:
1. The spell specifies sight and hearing only. Using just the spell, you can't taste what your familiar tastes, feel what your familiar touches or anything like that using only the spell. However the Invocation allows you to use the familiars senses which presumably includes all 7 of them (or more in the case of things like tremmor sense). So what are the mechanics for using the familiar's sense of smell or his sense of balance? The spell says nothing about how to do this. We would have to assume the action which specifically applies only for vision and hearing would be extended to apply for all senses. That is quite a leap. Alternatively, we could assume they can't use the other senses except for vision and hearing, which conflicts with the plain language of the invocation.
2. The spell says you are blind and deaf when using your familiars sight and hearing, but preusmably you still have your own sense of touch and smell etc when using only the spell. How does this work when using the Invocation when this is extended to all senses? If we are going to extrapolate, is this a case where the PC no longer has any senses at all. In this case he can't even stand because he has no sense of balance when using his fmailiar's senses? I would essentially have to go prone to use my familiars senses? I couldn't cast featherfall as a reaction because I would have no sense of touch to grab for the feather or a focus? This would make the invocation actually detrimental as it would be weaker overall in most cases than just casting the base spell.
3. The Invocation uses the word "perceive". Perception in 5E has specific rules tied to it and is both explicitly passive and active. Passive Perception by definition in 5E does not require an action. If you are going to perceive what your familiar perceives it has to happen both in an active and passive format to comply with the mechanics in 5. They did not use the word "perceive" in the initial drafting of the spell.
There is a corner case where you would need to use action to see what the familiar sees - if you or your familiar is in the ethereal while the other is not you would be on another plane and could simultaneously be within 100'. In this corner case Voice of the Chain Master would not work, however you could still communicate telepathically using the mechanics in find familiar becase there are no restrictions about being on the same planes. You could also use an action to see and hear through the familiar and would be blinded and deafened yourself if this was the case.
Can you use Voice of the Chain Master to stay behind cover and view enemies through your familiar's eyes then cast ranged spell attacks with advantage at them or spells that require DC saves?
You can't use most attacks through cover but it works great with obscurement.
You would have to be hidden (i.e. first taking the hide) in order to gain advantage on your attacks, but you could absolutely cast spells in this way. The caveat is when it comes to total cover. RAW, in order to target something for a spell, you need to have a clear path to it. Even though you have sight of the target through your familiar, your spell would still hit the cover between you and your foe before it hits your intended target. But since you can deliver spells with a range of touch, using something like lightning lure would work perfectly fine!
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This is another HUGE limiting factor when trying this tactic:
"as an Action, you can see through your familiar's eyes and hear what it hears until the start of your next turn."
Either using quicken spell, a bonus action spell, or the fighter's Action Surge would be the only way to cast using the viewpoint of your familiar. This is in addition to meeting the "clear path" caveat. Unfortunately, the spell would still originate from your position and require not encountering a blocking object/feature. Even Spell Sniper does not eliminate full cover, just allows the caster to have more precise aim to the exposed locations of the target. It has nothing to do with sight, but the energy literally dissipating against the cover it seems.
One thing that it could aid is the placement of AoE spells to better maximize target coverage depending on how your DM uses the fog of war.
IMHO, Earthdawn is still the best fantasy realm, Shadowrun is the best Sci-Fi realm, and Dark Sun is the best D&D realm.
Ah but Voice of the Chain Master doesn't say anything about taking an Action. simply says that "You can communicate telepathically with your familiar and perceive through your familiar’s senses as long as you are on the same plane of existence." Would this effect only extend your range or would it make it a constant passive ability?
Also I would argue that you could cast ranged spells on targets as long as they aren't "ranged spell attacks" that would require a direct line of attack. I could see casting Produce Flames on a location seen through your familiars eyes and causing flames to erupt out of the ground beneath your target.
My thoughts with "ranged spell attacks" would be, could you Darkseid Omega beam style bend and Eldritch Blast or Firebolt around a corner in a corridor to hit a creature standing out in the open?
Through obscurement yes, and you would get advantage.
My actual favorite use of this is for combining with misty step if you are swallowed or something.
This is a nice thread about the invocation enhancing the range while not altering the requirements of the Find Familiar spell: https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/166965/does-the-voice-of-the-chain-master-invocation-allow-me-to-see-through-my-familia
IMHO, Earthdawn is still the best fantasy realm, Shadowrun is the best Sci-Fi realm, and Dark Sun is the best D&D realm.
I would agree and I think this is pretty clear RAW. If it was limited it would be worded differently, it would say: "when you look through your familiars senses you can be any distance as long as you are on the same plane"
If you interpret it to say you still need to use an action and are still blinded then it is a really weak invocation.
I think this is up to interpretation, but the way I interpret it, and the way the only DM I played with this invocation interprets it is if it is an attack the target can not be behind complete cover. He can be on the other side of a darkness spell or the other side of a fog cloud and if so you would have advantage on the attack (you can see him but he can't see you), but something like a wall will stop a spell attack.
A save spell or cojuration or misty step, it does not matter as long as the area the familiar is viewing is within the spells range.
The invocation is an enhancement of the spells range with the ability to speak with your own voice through your familiar, nothing more. RAW, all it does is affect the range of communication as unlimited from 100'. Nothing else changes about the Find Familiar spell. It also does not inform you of which forms your familiar could take, that it rolls initiative, it can attack, etc, so why would it affect the need to use an Action to gain the enhanced benefit of the invocation?
I agree, it does seem weak until you realize how limiting 100' can be in a larger dungeon battle map. In an outside environment, 100' is nothing. Your familiar can be on the other side of Waterdeep and still in communication with you at all times, even being used to have a conversation without using a spell slot. At higher levels when characters can teleport all over the world with greater ease, being able to leave your familiar behind or scout ahead from the other side of the continent can also be a valuable tool.
IMHO, Earthdawn is still the best fantasy realm, Shadowrun is the best Sci-Fi realm, and Dark Sun is the best D&D realm.
RIght, and there has never been a limitation on the range for popping it back into a pocket dimension and letting it reappear within 30 feet of you, so once it is done dealing with what you needed on the other side of the continent, snap your fingers and it is back by your side ready for another task. So many uses for a chain familiar with voice of the chain master it is crazy.
RAI, it still takes an Action to see through your familiar senses, at least according to Crawford. RAW, it doesn't, the invocation does exactly what it says it does, it never says it's an enhancement to the spell, or refer to the spell at all (there are other ways of getting Familiars).
It would be very simple to write:"You can communicate telepathically with your familiar and *use an action to* perceive through your familiar’s senses as long as you are on the same plane of existence", but that's not what they wrote.
The Find Familiar spell does not allow you to perceive through your familiar's senses, the action noted in the spell is only for sight, hearing and special senses. Perceiving through your familiar's senses is an entirely new thing granted only by the invocation, just like getting a swim speed or a fly speed is a new thing granted by the Investment of Chainmaster invocation. It has no bearing on what is in the spell, and you can still use an action to accomplish what the spell says, although it would be redundant in almost every case.
Here is the relevant wording from each:
Find Familiar: "... While your familiar is within 100 feet of you, you can communicate with it telepathically. Additionally, as an Action, you can see through your familiar's eyes and hear what it hears until the start of your next turn ...., During this time, you are deaf and blind with regard to your own senses"
Voice of the Chain Master: "You can communicate telepathically with your familiar and perceive through your familiar's senses as long as you are on the same plane of existence. "
Three things on the underlined wording:
1. The spell specifies sight and hearing only. Using just the spell, you can't taste what your familiar tastes, feel what your familiar touches or anything like that using only the spell. However the Invocation allows you to use the familiars senses which presumably includes all 7 of them (or more in the case of things like tremmor sense). So what are the mechanics for using the familiar's sense of smell or his sense of balance? The spell says nothing about how to do this. We would have to assume the action which specifically applies only for vision and hearing would be extended to apply for all senses. That is quite a leap. Alternatively, we could assume they can't use the other senses except for vision and hearing, which conflicts with the plain language of the invocation.
2. The spell says you are blind and deaf when using your familiars sight and hearing, but preusmably you still have your own sense of touch and smell etc when using only the spell. How does this work when using the Invocation when this is extended to all senses? If we are going to extrapolate, is this a case where the PC no longer has any senses at all. In this case he can't even stand because he has no sense of balance when using his fmailiar's senses? I would essentially have to go prone to use my familiars senses? I couldn't cast featherfall as a reaction because I would have no sense of touch to grab for the feather or a focus? This would make the invocation actually detrimental as it would be weaker overall in most cases than just casting the base spell.
3. The Invocation uses the word "perceive". Perception in 5E has specific rules tied to it and is both explicitly passive and active. Passive Perception by definition in 5E does not require an action. If you are going to perceive what your familiar perceives it has to happen both in an active and passive format to comply with the mechanics in 5. They did not use the word "perceive" in the initial drafting of the spell.
There is a corner case where you would need to use action to see what the familiar sees - if you or your familiar is in the ethereal while the other is not you would be on another plane and could simultaneously be within 100'. In this corner case Voice of the Chain Master would not work, however you could still communicate telepathically using the mechanics in find familiar becase there are no restrictions about being on the same planes. You could also use an action to see and hear through the familiar and would be blinded and deafened yourself if this was the case.